Do you think the middle class is shrinking?

[holiday]

I have a friend and we have talked political things lately and she seems to be so against anything that even remotely looks like socialism. She doesn't want government money going to all these causes etc.

But I don't understand how this is even a worry right now. To me, the current climate shows more of a move where the middle class is shrinking more people are in poverty, and the rich keep getting richer. I don't think she sees anything wrong with that (and she isn't rich). I thought this was just common knowledge. Do you think that this is happening? Or is it just me being paranoid? I feel like we are stuck in this time warp and we are just moving backwards (even in social equality)

[The Zanti Regent]

1. Millions are brainwashed by Jesus

I've got a dozen Jesusistas at my office. All of them do not care one bit about Bush wrecking the world because Jesus is coming back next week to rapture them!

Yes, they are Middle Class, but not for much longer. When the dollar collapses, we'll witness a new depression that will make the old one look like a party!

[madrchsod]

jesus? don`t blame him,

jesus didn`t brainwash anyone...

[The Zanti Regent]

20. Wanna bet?

Jesus brainwashed my child. I saw my only child, my son mutate into a full blown bigot who couldn't wait to get out of high school and kill sand CENSORED for Jesus.

I begged my son not to go, he would not listen. He went to church with his friends, every week he became more of a hard core conservative.

Then he went to Iraq, got a bullet in his spine, lay in agony and died last thanksgiving.

This is what Jesus does to people and I want nothing to do with it.

[DARE to HOPE]

22. Oh, dear kid, I am so sorry for your loss...

...I cannot imagine what that is like. They say it is the worst pain. And all because of so many lies, from so many liars.

In my own church (we are Lutherans in the Chicago area--I am the one with the music and poli sci degrees, husband has the physics and math and PhD in Hebrew studies, along with sem training)--WE are the ones trying to DISSUADE our working class kids from considering the military "an option." I cannot tell you how frustrated we are, trying to argue against the Rush/O'Reilly stuff they all hear!

But we teach the Beatitudes, the way of the Peacemaker, the life of the Christian following Christ: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control."

The "Jesusistas" around you are nothing but ignorant heretics if they are urging these young people to war! There is a cult, being created at government expense, I really think, distorting the Christian Gospel and charging up our kids! That crazy general is a part of all this, it seems to me--he was promoted by the Pentagon rather than removed after his incendiary remarks!

We know about Operation Monarch, destroying the whole institution of journalism over the last 30 years. I think this whole (anti) "Christian" movement is a black op myself intended to do the same to the churches.

God is Love, dear one. He weeps WITH us in our pain. Perhaps you feel He should have stopped that bullet! We cannot know everything, this side of life. And suffering, especially of your only child, is so tragically hard to understand. But God DOES love you, love your son, despite all the pain you have endured. I can imagine how your co-workers amplify your pain and anger. Tell them they are WRONG.

Christians who really ARE Christian DO NOT pound the drums for war!

[The Zanti Regent]

42. I wish I could believe you about churches.

But I have seen too many churches that are simply 700 Club or Trinity Broadcasting franchises, pushing GOP politics. I don't know of any churches in the Los Angeles area that fit your description. As a kid, I remember that there used to be a lot of those churches, but the Nazi Party has infiltrated them. I am so sick of Christianity that I'd rather sleep in my bed on a Sunday morning than be dragged to a pew and be forced to listen to Nazi propaganda.

What really hurts is the asshole preacher of the ASSemblies of GAWD church where my son went called me and asked for my son's insurance money because my son "promised" to give it to the church.

I told that rancid rotten son of a bitch that he ALREADY has ONE fucking Mercedes and he isn't getting another one. The asshole then shot his mouth off about my eyes and ears being closed because I am an Orthodox Jew/

That was the last straw. I told that socksucking motherfather that I REFUSED TO FILE a claim for the insurance and even if they sent me the check, I would send it to Senator Boxer's office along with a note telling her that I did NOT want this money because there is NO GOD DAMNED WAY YOU COULD PUT A DOLLAR VALUE ON THE LIFE OF MY ONLY CHILD.

I told that bible thumping maggot to don't even THINK about trying for that money. I told him to go back his god-damned Ayn Rand gospel and earn his money the hard way, by fleecing all the ignorant trailer trash he could get his hands on.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. How awful

I'm sorry he tried to get that money. He has no respect at all for you as your son's mother. Did that guy have any proof that your son promised him money? Sounds very greedy to me. Just like all of these republicans. They're so greedy it's disgusting. And yet they claim to be Christians when God and Christ teaches us that we're not to be greedy.

[lonestarnot]

23. No I'm afraid you are wrong...this is what people do to Jesus; continue

to crucify.

[ultraist]

35. For you...

Zanti Regent

:hug:

[w4rma]

40. I disagree. It's Satan, pretending to be Jesus, who is brainwashing.

By his fruits you shall know him.

[The Zanti Regent]

43. I see the fruit of Christianity

and THIS Orthodox Jew is NOT going to play the Jesus Game.

I am NOT going to let ignorant bible thumping boobs herd up my people and send us back to Israel because their book of Bizarro Fairy Tales says so, I also don't like how that fictional piece of fluff ends with ALL but 144,000 Jewish males being killed off.

Not even Hitler pulled off what Robertson, Falwell, Crouch, James Robinson, Dobson, and the assholes of the Nazi Republican Party want to do to my people and what scares me to death is that so many of my people are brainwashed by these Jesusistas, they are gladly letting these pied pipers lead them into the ultimate gas oven.

[DARE to HOPE]

45. Oh, dear Zanti, how your pain pierces my heart...

They built an Assembly of God "warehouse" down the highway from us, too. But more than one Mercedes could also be in the driveway of the big politically-connected African American Baptist church in town as well. UN-F__KING -BELIEVABLE that he called and demanded an inheritance from your child!! It is an eye opening story for me to hear; explains a lot.

Don't go to church, of course not, if you are Jewish. But do learn about God. All the stuff they say about the "Old Testament," or Jewish Scriptures, about a fire-breathing, fearsome kind of God is just wrong. Just start reading, and after the breath-taking poem to Creation in Genesis ch 1, the ancient stories get started, and God plays such a tender role! Look throughout the scriptures--He is always breaking His own rules, to forgive us, to restore us, to come closer to us.

I particularly love the little book of Jonah. And the Psalms, wow. Some can get pretty violent in asking God to take on our enemies!! Not a bad thing sometimes! :-) But the tender care God has for us, including our deepest sighs and woes, knocks me over, and has really helped me survive the last shocking four years.

Pray as you read. Ask Him to lead you. You don't want to get bogged down in all the little laws following the 10 Commandments, even though they can get pretty interesting. Feel the ancientness of it all, giving our own lives some perspective. Read about Ruth. Read about Job. Everything in those scriptures is there because somebody thought there was a lesson humans would profit from learning.

I wish for you...love and friendship around you, to help heal you. Love does NOT die, dear friend. Your son is hovering somewhere close. I know my father does.

God bless.

LC

P.S. Hey--144,000 Jews get saved? Did you not see my post on the thread about numbers in the last day or so? 144,000 was a number picked because of its inclusiveness, its enormity! It's meaning gets distorted, just like the 6 days of Creation, because we are reading everything with (biblically illiterate) fundamentalist eyes! We are supposed to put ourselves back THERE, to understand what THEY meant, for crying out loud! And boy, have they screwed up the meaning of the LAST book in the Bible just as badly as they have the FIRST.

3 refers in the Bible to things of God, holy, set apart (specific meaning of "holy")

4 refers in the Bible to things that are human--four corners of the earth is our domain

3 plus 4 = 7 (days of the week, days of Creation--symbolic of MUCH more than Creationists allow BTW--God pondered awhile before He could come up with US!) :-)

3 times 4 = 12 (God TIMES humans--12 tribes, 12 apostles)

10 means complete, as in 10 fingers, or 7 times 10 = 70 "all the nations of the earth"

So...144,000 = 12 times 12 times 10 times 10 times 10!! In other words, the whole of Creation will be redeemed, the WHOLE!! God and humanity together spreading love over the whole of creation!!

Don't let anyone tell you different. :-)

Oh, and one more, which I just LOVE: 7 times 7 = 49! All our weeks/years in and out, of hard work SQUARED--then you get the Jubilee Year, where all debts were forgiven! Think of how just that concept, and the words, have played in western history over the years. You have a rich, rich tradition, and I wish you much joy in finding it!

[ultraist]

57. I feel the same way about the Jesus freak Bible thumpers

It's a cult.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. Exactly

The Bible warns of false prophets and these people think W and those like him are really followers of God and doing His will and all that. All you have to do is look at Bush's latest 150 program cut and you can know he is not a Christian.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. Please don't blame Jesus

But blame those who are using his name and his message. Yes, the middle class is shrinking because jobs are hard to find and it's hard for people to take care of their families. They haven't been brainwashed by Jesus but by people who don't understand. As a Christian, I personally, find that remark unfair.

[Stirk]

65. They sure are. I've often heard the numbers on

fundamentalism in the United States (mainly Christian fundamentalism). It's just far beyond anything seen in other industrialized nations.

I wish I knew why. Is it because we've had a culture of fear for at least the last 60 years? Is real hardline fundamentalism rising as poverty spreads? Or did we just miss something that the rest of world didn't?

Whatever causes it, the results are clear enough. The US populace is easily led.

[Nikia]

2. By looking at job listings online and in the paper

For entry level jobs in my area, wages are lowered or have stagnated over the last 5 years. I cringe when I see an ad for a low skilled manufacturing job describe the $8.50/hour it pays as "great pay". Since I am unhappy in quality assurance, I have looked at ads for entry level lab jobs. Some requiring a bachelor's degree pay as low as $9.00/hour. Overall, most advertised jobs not requiring advanced degrees and over 5 years of experience in very specific jobs and skills, pay under $12.00/hour. The advertised job market is often all that thos,e who are not well connected to people in a hiring position, have.

[stevebreeze]

11. most jobs are filled by personal reference.

Say your uncle bill can get you a job at his place of work, McDonald's. It makes a great deal of difference if he is in the corporate board or a fry cook.

[Stop_the_War]

3. The middle class is more than shrinking, it's being destroyed.

Soon there will be no middle-class.

[spikesmom]

13. The Downward Spiral- From Middle-Class To Poverty

It isn't your imagination, the middle class is shrinking! President Bush declared war on the middle cass when he attempted to get a bill passed to end overtime pay for workers, allow outsourcing overseas, allow so many H-1B workers in to our country, and to give the rich tax breaks that saddle most debt on the middle-class. One thing that I do is to let companies that outsource know that I won't buy their products and that I will tell others not to also.

[ultraist]

36. That's true, the USCB income stats prove it

The rich are getting richer are more are falling into poverty. The median income has also DECREASED.

It's a very sad state of affairs and it's only going to get worse over the next four years.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Another thing to do

is just look at who out there (company wise) has provited from Bush being President. That should tell you all. Ten bets out of ten they're all oil companies in Texas (or connections to Texas).

[TahitiNut]

15. Yep. It's empirically provable.

That's what the Gini Ratio is all about. :shrug:

[JanMichael]

21. It sure is. You can use the GINI or the Income Tables.

Quick point about the charts. The first one is very readable, the second however is not in keeping with the "make them understandable to as many people as possible" creed:-)

[TahitiNut]

32. I understand, but ...

... the bottom graph actually shows what a Lorenz Curve looks like and how a Gini Ratio calculated from that curve - sorta. As the "belly" of that curve sags (i.e. elimination of the 'middle class'), the Gini Ratio increases.

[JanMichael]

46. I'm familiar with the 2nd graph. My point was that not all people are.

Sadly I'm being forced by my job to evaluate graphs, charts, maps and other descriptive devices, so the general population can understand them.

Had the text that you just posted been accompanying the graph it would have been more than sufficient:-)

[ultraist]

37. It's even WORSE now than it was in 2001 , chart is dated

[TahitiNut]

41. I agree. The 2002 numbers will be available next month.

The Bureau of the Census collects the data and takes that long to crunch the numbers. If we take a look at the huge up-peak of the Gini Ratio during the Bush41 Administration, we get a hint of the rape of the working class currently taking place, imho. It crept upwards more slowly during the Clinton Administration, gaining speed when Gingrich took out a contract on the American working class.

[Blue Wally]

55. Hard to tell from the size of the graph

Is that horrendous uptick on the graph in the last year of Bush 41 or the first year of Clinton??

Data should be readily avilable to update the graph through Dec 2003 based on IRS data. Cutting it off in 2001 doesn't say much about Bush.

What caused the sudden convergence of black and Hispanic GINI with white in 2001??

[TahitiNut]

56. Peaked at 0.429 in 1993, then at 0.435 in 2001.

Reached a low of 0.348 in 1968. LBJ's "War on Poverty" actually helped, despite the sneering and whining of the greedy reichbots.

Black and Hispanic families, while still receiving lower incomes overall, are at least not subjected to higher inequities to the degree seen a decade and more ago. I'd personally attribute at least part of that to greater equity in educational opportunities in the aftermath of the civil rights movements.

[Blue Wally]

58. Hmmmmm

While the long term trend is up, it appears to dip during recession and go up in good times. I would guess that the main variable is the capital gains component of the income of the investor class. Thoiugh I would guess much of the income of the well-to-do is more variable than for the average workers in that bonuses, commissions, capital gains, and dividends vary with the economy. In good times, the "rich " leap ahead and in bad times, they regress toward the mean.

[TahitiNut]

59. Here ya go ...

Despite the fact that executive salaries have soared to astronomic heights and those salaries mask the decline in employee compensation, I think the picture of "cheap labor" neokonservatism is gruesomely clear.

[Blue Wally]

61. Bottom line

All three charts say that corporate profits go up in the good times and down in the bad times. Since payrolls are not as elastic (most firms that lose 75% of their profits don't cut 75% of their work force in bad times). employees get a bigger share of the pie during economic downturns.

[TahitiNut]

62. Nonsense. That's about 80% circular reasoning and 20% hogwash.

When one defines "good times" as increasing corporate profits (as the media does) along with a DJIA rising, then that's circular reasoning.

But these graphs don't show that. What they show is corporations confiscating the wealth created by the labor of their employees. These are not graphs of the amount of corporate profits or of the amounts of employee compensation; they're charts of the percentage share of all national income, irrespective of the levels (or growth rate) of that income.

[Blue Wally]

63. How do you define "good times"??

Take your first chart. There is a red line which is obviously some kind of a moving average which is weighted to smooth out the sharp changes to the curve. There is no explanation as to how it is computed.

The other two lines are connecting data points (probably on a monthly basis) of employee compensation vs both national income and GDP. The peaks on these two curves appear to be at times of high unemployment while the low points of the two curves come at times of very low unemployment.

To put a freeper spin on it, the chart seems to say that employee compensation as a percentage of GDP is much higher now than it was in 1966 when the Democratic Party had the presidency and lopsided majorities in both houses of congress.

The second chart shows the same thing. 2003 is roughly the same as 1976(on edit, I meant 1966). If you say the corporate profits are "bad" and employee compensation is "good", then it looks like the greatest economic times of all were during the Nixon-Ford-Carter years of the 70s. That supposedly was the golden age of economic justice. Having lived through the Nixon-Ford-Carter years (I was in my thirties then), I can tell you that things were pretty dismal the entire decade and economics defeated both Ford and Carter.

Ditto the third chart which says that 1974 was the greatest year ever for "economic justice".

I really can't comment on the red trend lines of the first and third charts without knowing over what period of time the weighted average was computed. Be nice to see those charts over the entire 20th century.

I really thank you for presenting the charts. There is a lot of data in them and some of the insights into the economic system (to include various "swings") are very informative.

[NicRic]

4. Easy ?> YES n/t

.

[cornermouse]

5. Your friend probably hasn't thought things through to their logical

conclusion. She probably also has a vastly expanded definition of what socialism is.

How many volunteer jobs does she now have? How many hours per week does she spend doing volunteer work? That's probably the only alternative, insufficient and inefficient as it would be, to what she calls socialism.

[Warpy]

6. The middle class has been thrust into working class economics

and the working class is now below the real poverty line.

By the real poverty line, I mean that the formula is out of date. It says that the typical family will spend 1/3 of its income on food and measures the cost of food. The poverty line by this formula is $18,000 for a family of 4. Since food hasn't inflated in price as fast as everything else, they really spend only a sixth of their income on food. That places the real poverty line at $36,000.

Poverty has been defined downward as destitution. Nobody can afford to raise two children on $18,000, especially when both parents must work to achieve that income.

The middle class has historically been that class that can afford to hire household help, whether or not they choose to. A congresscritter defined middle class as having an income of $200,000/year, and that was TEN YEARS AGO.

The middle class is largely gone. We have a small working class, a huge poverty wage class, and a very few unimaginably rich plutocrats. We are in the third world, thanks to the stripping of wealth away from the people who create it and the lavishing of it upon the rich through short sighted and stupid tax policy.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. The rich just have a more sophisticated and less transparent way

of flowing the gov't money to THEM.

[stevebreeze]

8. in economic news just this week or two

GDP grew by 3.7%
profits reported by large corporations grew 18% in the last year
bonuses by fortune 500 CEO's leaped 43% over last year
real income for non-supervisory non-farm payrolls DECLINED 0.7%

That is how the rest of us are doing, those of us working for a paycheck. This does not even reflect the growing cost of out of pocket medical care, the rising cost of sending our kids to college, or the soaring cost of woning a home. Worse real hourly income (real as in economic speak for adjusted for inflation)has not increased for working people in 25 years.
Every time you hear the report on productivity you hear "increased productivity is important because it allows wages to go up without driving up prices". What a laugh, working wages haven't increase in the lifetime of the current generation. I guess all those productivity gains have been gained only by the effort of the wealthy since they have received virtually every last dime of the benefits.

This is not an accident low wages is the GOAL of the GOP. They have been waging class warfare and the working have been losing. The too used are lowering taxes for the rich. Keeping taxes high on the rest of us, part of privatizing SS is keeping the tax rate high, but reducing the progressive benefits. High unemployment, courtesy of Alan Greenspan. His policy of extremely low inflation thorough higher then necessary interest rates have intentionally keep unemployment high.

We don't just need to get rid of the current economic jihadies running things in Washington, we need to elect progressive democrats to put the middle class back on the road to growing wages.

[CindyDale]

9. IMO, the middle class is under attack

from groups of elite control freaks. Eventually, it could destroy our economy and destabilize the country. If that happens, this destabilization will destroy American prestige, which only ever resulted from our stability, and in turn, will further worsen the economy. Eventually, all hell will break loose.

Louis XIV attacked the middle class in France during the 17th century, and it caused serious economic difficulties in France for a long, long time.

http://www.metaweb.com/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Louis_XIV

Sound familiar?

[solinvictus]

10. Socialism..

If a government program has any tangible benefit for an average American, it's derided as socialism. At the same time, if government at any level gives a corporation direct grants, tax cuts, or other incentives; it's called economic stimulus. In America, we only allow socialism for the rich. Free market, my ass.

[CrispyQ]

12. I'm always amazed at people who are so against government

assistance to the poor, disabled, & unfortunate, but have no issue with corporate welfare.

I fear that we are becoming a nation where the rich have everything & the poor are merely tools for the rich to make more. All taxes will go to support the military industrial complex & those taxes come from the pitiful wages that the masses make, not from the rich and not from corporate profits.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0225-28.htm

snip...

Lincoln fought for "government of the people, by the people, for the people." Bush stands for government of the owners, by the owners, for the owners.

The richest 1 percent of households already owns more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined. Take-home pay as a share of the economy is at the lowest level since 1929.

Bush is reshaping the tax and budget system so workers pay a greater share of the costs and owners pay less. As wealth is increasingly sheltered from taxes, inequality will become more entrenched and hereditary in Bush's ownership society.

While Bush runs up the national debt to reckless levels, risking economic crisis, to give more tax breaks to millionaires, his budget cuts education, a pillar of individual and national progress, on the pretense of fiscal responsibility.

The unemployment rate is 30 percent higher than it was in 2000. About one out of six Americans has no health insurance, and half of all bankruptcies are illness-related. One out of eight Americans lives below the meager official poverty line -- and many more can't make ends meet above it.

Yet, Bush's budget slashes already inadequate small business assistance, workforce development, community economic development, public health and safety, Medicaid, housing assistance, public transit, food stamps, childcare and much more.


Another good article at Common Dreams:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0223-32.htm

=======

Is your friend more afraid of socialism than fascism? Suggest that she check out even a few of the many pages at www.reclaimdemocracy.org for eye opening revelations about our corporate state.

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I'm amazed at

all the greedyness too. Last night I was listening to Guy James' show and he had a nineteen year old caller call in and he was going on about how he was for Bush's private plan. They were talking about how this young guy thinks people should look out for themselves and not help the poor. I was just amazed!!! These neocons are SO greedy. They're not even republicans! Disgusting. Totally. Of course Mr. James totally went off on this guy and how greedy he was. :puke: And a lot of these people claim to be Christians but Christ did teach about helping the poor and people in society who need our help.

[BiggJawn]

14. As long as you have a Credit Card, you're "Middle Class"...

Your friend is a Sheep. Sorry if that's harsh, but if she doesn't care if she's getting poorer and the rich are getting richer, then she has her head firmly up her ass and thinks the view is just WONDERFUL!

And you're not being paranoid. We ARE going back to what it was like when Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle"...

[me b zola]

25. Sinclair's "The Jungle"

Just yesterday I gave my copy to someone to read, hoping for them to connect the dots.

[BiggJawn]

28. If they don't focus on the ratshit on the hams, they might.

When I first read "the Jungle", I thought it was mainly an expose of the shitty food they were getting in the "good old days" before the FDA. It was not until I entered the Workforce myself, and lived through "Reaganomics" that the rest of the lesson hit home.

And now with not only "Son of Dribble-Down" looming on the horizon, but the whispers that the FDA might be firmly in PHARMA's jockstrap.....

We didn't learn, we traded our involvement and vigilance for "Must-See Teeee-Veeee" and we're about to see History repeat it's bad old self.

Crappy "food" that's made from chemicals (FrankenFood, HFCS) "Medicine" that gets approved on a memo from Lord Rove and a note from Lilly's accountants, etc. etc. etc......

[madrchsod]

16. i am making less than i did in 1979

when adjusted for inflation.

[yella_dawg]

17. According to Reaganomics

"a rising tide raises all boats." Which is the economic justification for "trickle down". Oddly enough, that seems to be true. Historically, when the tide raises the poor and middle class, the wealthy benefit significantly. Unfortunately, "trickle down" attempts to fill the pool from the other end, and the smaller boats get sunk.

That's what amazes me about "voodoo economics". It's proven to be a disaster for everyone, long term, but the right keeps on trying.

Actually, I don't find it surprising at all. There is a rapidly dwindling pool of resources on this planet, and the demise of the middle class insures plenty for the few at the very top. This rising tide is a tsunami with a specific purpose.

[CindyDale]

18. This gang is determined to use up the dwindling pool as

quickly as possible, though, so I don't see any purpose, unless they long to live like the Flintstones.

There is no sense at all in this, IMO.

[bush_is_wacko]

19. Yes, the middle class is shrinking.

Withdrawing all social services to the elderly, infirm, and children will put us right back to where we were during the depression. And yes, we are heading in that direction. All the laws and services that were enacted to correct that situation... families having to live in generational housing to help their parents and children survive, are under attack. All the rules and regulations regarding monopolies of natural resources are effectively gone again and the elite are back in control. The conditions which brought this country to it's knees and left the majority out in the streets are already in place. If you don't think the elite know this and have moved their funds to a place where the collapse of our economy will not effect them you are mistaken. The depression made a lot of people VERY poor, but it also made a lot of wealthy men EVEN more powerful and the bush family benefited from that era as much as the Rockefeller's and Kennedy's did.

This whole situation is a set-up! Ask anyone that works for a commodities company or the US government and will not benefit from the collapse and they will tell you these companies are funneling their money EVERYWHERE but into the United States.

Misappropriations of funds is RAMPANT in out government right now. Anyone that complains is treated with kid gloves to get them to acquiesce to the missing funds. If they have a history of whistle blowing and they complain loud enough they are essentially given the opportunity for an early buyout retirement and the misappropriated funds are at least "temporarily" found for them and put back on the books. I have no doubt the moment they no longer have access to that information those founds go missing again.

The situation is appalling and it has reached critical mass from what I can tell. Somethings gotta give and it is going to happen sooner rather than later IMO!

[lonestarnot]

24. Didn't I lately see something re shrink wrapping of large decomposing

objects. This big plastic wrap on middle class.

[me b zola]

26. shrink wrapping

I caught something about that on AAR news. I didn't hear it all, but it stopped me in my tracks. It sounded like they were saying they were developing a shrink wrapping machine that could shrink-wrap large quantities of dead bodies.

OMG. I had forgot about that. I meant to call AAR to get clarity on the story. Do you know anything??

[lonestarnot]

27. Long thread here at DU...ask mods...n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

31. I missed this. If you find out anything please post it. I would be

interesting in going through it. My experience is just through knowing people who have found themselves pushed aside after many years and many accolades from past administrations on jobs well done. There is a serious attempt from the elite's to make a grab for power. The administration has made this possible at this time in history, but the process has been going on for a VERY long time. As I said, wealthy, powerful, people KNOW that by taking income away from the middle class (the single largest category of American's) they can gain not only financially, but also in the form of political capital on a worldwide basis.

There is a lot of information that points to the direction of insanity through centuries of "inbreeding" among the elite on a worldwide basis. I don't know much about it. I have just glanced through discussions of it. Europe is supposedly a prime example of what inbred society can become with money and power. Supposedly in Europe, NO ONE gets any where near the top 1% without some lineage relating to aristocracy such as Kings and Queens. This ties in with the fact they don't seem to notice or just plain laugh at NORMAL people who can see through the propaganda and KNOW there is a conspiracy that can't seem to be discovered. IMO, the scandal may be the insanity that is produced by genetic inbreeding.

As a former dog breeder I can certainly relate to stories about that. I currently own the HOPEFULLY last in the line of a VERY inbred group of Italian Greyhounds. I know there are a lot of other lines out there but THIS line will end here! (Story way too long to relate but suffice it to say, I hunted the breeder down and bought the last brood bitch and stud I could find! They are both aged and living out their life comfortably spoiled, but they are a real handful and full of medical maladies and screwed up dog behavior. They will die in dignity and be loved despite their weirdness! Call it my stupid young adult cause. It probably didn't help much in the overall picture!)

Like I said though, I don't know enough to discuss the issue. The bush family can supposedly connect their history back to one of the King George's of Europe and I read recently that Kerry is related to the bush's through marriage or something. If you take a good hard look at our government, you can form some sort of a pattern of "aristocracy lineage" though. Rarely does an outsider get in and rarely do these people marry outside that "aristocracy lineage." After so many years of human history inter-marriage like this has had to produce some abnormalities.

[CindyDale]

33. I can understand how someone might come up with such an idea

but I honestly don't believe that genetics have much to do with this. Actually, most Americans are descended from royalty:

http://www.american-buddha.com/royal.we.htm

and you have to do very close inbreeding to increase significantly your chances of inherited disorders:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20020408.html

I'm not saying people should run out and marry their cousins, but unless the gene pool of a group is very limited, it won't have a huge effect.

[bush_is_wacko]

34. I have heard this line of thinking as well. I think there is a fine line

between true genetically altering inbreeding and just related gene pools though.

In the case of dog's it is often mother to son, father to daughter type breeding to isolate a particular genetically attractive trait, color, body style, hair type, etc. etc, that causes this propensity for serious medical problems. So I have never really followed this line of thinking with regards to humans. However, I do think there have been societies that have existed within the human population in a very tiny genetic gene pool and I think there are societies that would like to insure no "bad blood" is mixed into their gene pool. If they never married outside their confines, it would make sense they have created the genetically limited gene pool which creates problems. I can trace my genealogy back to one of the five draftees of the constitution, before that I know nothing, and really don't care much about it. My family is the biggest mix of genetics you are ever likely to run across. Irish, German, Polish, Italian, English, Welsh, Hispanic, Filipino. Those are the ones I have proof of, I'm sure there are many more, but despite this huge melding of genetics we are inherently unhealthy individuals. Somewhere along the line someone had a genetic predisposition to autoimmune disorders and my family is riddled with them, almost every autoimmune disease known to man and one that is known to doctors but so rare that they usually have to run us through batteries of tests before they believe us that the condition is "normal" for us and needs no treatment. However, very few of us have died of cancer related illness even with the autoimmune thing. Hell our bodies are so busy attacking themselves apparently cancer doesn't stand a chance in our bodies. That statement is pure conjecture on my part and really more of a joke than conjecture, BTW!

[leftofthedial]

29. it's about 20% to 25% smaller than it was in 2000

we are moving backwards about 10 years worth of progress every year.

[ultraist]

38. Not doubting your numbers, but...

How did you come up with them?

[UdoKier]

30. It has been shrinking since the late 70s or early 80s at least...

The upper-middle/almost rich class has grown in numbers and power, and despite their wealth they still see themselves as "middle class". To me, middle class means you can afford to buy a modest home on one income, but can't afford a lot of luxuries like vacations to Hawaii. That is a much smaller portion of the population now than it was 30 years ago.

[ultraist]

39. The upper middle class are not "wealthy"

Most have ZERO networth. Granted, mosted upper middle class live a more luxurious lifestyle but few actually invest. Wealth is typically defined by economists as a minimum NETWORTH of 2Million.

The top end of middle class income rose to $89,000 this past year, so yes, that bracket is earning more.

[UdoKier]

44. I really couldn't care less how economists define middle class.

I define it how *I* choose. If you don't have to choose between health insurance and paying for a college education for your kids, you are in the top 30 or 40% or so in this country, and you are WEALTHY. The only people who would say otherwise are people who live in such comfort themselves. It's not my concern whether people who earn an upper-middle income squander their money, or invest it. The point is, they have the choice. For the "other half", there is no choice, there is no investing. It's all most of us can do to stay afloat.

[natrat]

52. if you make 75k and and you live modestly

and you are further in debt at the end of the year things are worse. If 20 million like individuals experience the same thing it's a phenomenon. If things go really nuts and inflation goes through the roof 75k will buy you dog food in a can. It scares me to think what will happen to the old and poor. sucks

[UdoKier]

53. I make $25K in San Francisco

So it's hard for me to muster sympathy for people who can't make ends meet on $75K in much cheaper real estate markets.

Granted, I'm not saying that that's "rich" or anything, but if you can't get by on it, you're living too extravagantly.

[ultraist]

60. No, other people may choose to use the REAL definitions, not yours

The only people who would say otherwise are people who live in such comfort themselves.

That is absurd. Since when do have a choice between UdoKier definitions or accurate definitions?

The point I made about most upper middle class not investing was because they will have little retirement AND they could EASILY slip into middle or lower middle class.

It is NOT a stable income situation for many them. We saw the bottom fall out during the dotcom collapse and this could easily happen again.

[UdoKier]

64. The definitions economists use are NOT consistent.

Nor are they based in reality. They tend to use median income, or quintiles, or whatever.

I simply don't think you can call a person who makes an income that less than 20% of the population earn as "middle class", and yet, people in those strata are often defined that way.


And again, struggling to get by on $25K in this environment, it's nigh on impossible to muster ANY sympathy for people living such extravagant lifestyles that they can't sock away some savings on $90K/year.

[Kazak]

54. I was recently booted from that middle class...

currently on unemployment and trying to claw my way back in, but it's not looking too good right now.

:puke:

[independentchristian]

66. Shrinking? Of course

Fascism wants to destroy the middle class because it threatens their power, because the middle class is full of individuals who are usually affluent enough and educated enough to form a unified offensive against their agenda.