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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:22 AM
Original message
Dean Is An AIPAC Man Trying To Pacify The Left
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:28 AM by DrFunkenstein
Dean was taken down a notch not because he was insufficiently pro-Israel, but because he doesn't know how to act Presidentially. He was trying to pacify his hardcore base because they found out what he really was - a hooker for AIPAC, with Steve Grossman (former AIPAC head, now co-chair of Dean's campaign) playing the pimp.

In trying to appease his base, he overstated his claim/lie by saying that we should not "take sides." Although the unfortunate Likud incarnation has come to represent Israel, we still have a geopolitical interest in maintaining ties with the nation we helped create (for better or worse). We are always going to "take sides."

However, that doesn't mean we have to bend over to the nation's most hawkish elements. We are free to dictate what we feel is in our best interests, and to mold Israel in that direction. That may sound Machiavellian, but it is the truth. And it is in our best interest - and Israel's - to create stability in the Mid-East.

When we say "peace," we really mean stability - not the total absence of violent conflict. Those that demand unilateral concessions from the Palestinians of TOTAL pacification, know full well that this will never happen and only serves as cover for an unprecendented (and illegal) land-grab. This equally true of the "separation wall" intended to cut deeply into Palestinian lands.

Now let us take a look at some context to Howard Dean's recent misstatements about "taking sides."

---

Israeli aid constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world. It promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants, transforms Palestine into a military test ground, and violates US law and abuses of human rights.

Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion of American taxpayers' money to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.

After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees, which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day.

Seventy five percent of US military aid to Israel goes into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more. The US depends on Israel to test new military technologies in war conditions. For example, uranium-depleted ammunition has been fired at civilians in Palestine.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4

Dean traveled to Israel on a trip sponsored by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). After meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Dean stated: “I do not think that as long as Yasser Arafat is president there will be peace." Before leaving, Sharon asked if Dean would support requests for new loan guarantees to Israel. Dean “promised him he would.”

http://www.aaiusa.org/countdown/c120602.htm

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

Dean believes the Bush administration should be giving Israel $4 billion in military aid to fight terrorism, not the $1 billion it proposed last month.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030418/us02.shtml

And, finally, Dean's foreign policy speech at Drake. Note how one-sided it is.

When they have bothered to state them, the Administration's guiding principles in the Middle East are the right ones. Terrorism against Israel must end. A two-state solution is the only path to eventual peace, but Palestinian territory cannot have the capability of being used as a platform for attacking Israel. Some degree of separation between Israelis and Palestinians is probably necessary in light of the horrible bloodshed of the past two years. To be viable, the Palestinian Authority must become democratic and purged of corruption.

But none of this will happen naturally. The United States is the only country with the ability to give both sides the confidence to move toward a future of coexistence. Appearances matter, and if we are not engaged, it looks like we simply do not care and that we have condemned the entire Palestinian people because of their leadership. In my view, this hurts the United States, it hurts Israel, and it makes it less likely the violence and the terrorism will end.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_foreign_drake

---

To sum up: Dean says we shouldn't "take sides" - despite promising a leader of another country unconditional financial aid (more than even Paul Wolfowitz would concede). That's 4x the military aid ($1 billion to $4 billion) and 4x the guaranteed loans ($2 billion to $8 billion). He also supports unilateral concessions from the Palestinians, and a "separation" wall that even George W. Bush has reservations about.

How very Presidential.

Now let's compare to Kerry's foreign policy speech at Georgetown:

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Huh?
...Oh, I get it! I'm laughing in that nervous sort of way when your grandfather makes a joke that nobody quite understands and which goes on way too long. "Good one, Gramps!"
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Gee, what a persuasive response
Perhaps you should instead provide some cites that refute Dr F's?
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. OK, Guess I Don't Get It
This guy thinks Dean's an uber-Zionist or something (in a rambling rant, posted yet again at DU, which strikes me as borderline racist, to be perfectly honest), while Lieberman (and others) think Dean is Arafat's lover. Call me crazy, but all this convinces me he's neither.

Dean says that we (the U.S.) shouldn't take sides, and some Jewish settlements have got to go. I and probably 99% of Americans agree with these "controversial" statements. (They happen to be President Clinton's. Hardly AIPAC positions.)

So what am I missing? Is it the fact that some people go all wacky when the word "Israel" is ever mentioned, endlessly trying to seek any reason for continued conflict? Damn, Green Bay Packers fans aren't even this fanatic. :evilgrin:

And, with all due respect, if you want to vote for the non-AIPAC candidate -- and what does that mean? -- it ain't John Kerry. It's Al Sharpton.

My response was exactly on target. This is one of the stupidest posts ever at DU.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Yeah, I guess you don't get it
This guy thinks Dean's an uber-Zionist or something

Pay attention! It's not that Dean is or ever was an "uber-Zionist". It's that Dean used to lean towards Israel, and now is claiming aa desire for being more even-handed. So why the switch?

Some people, specifically Dean's supporters, claim that it's because Dean is "flexible" and willing to change his opinions if new info warrants it, even if there is no new info they can point to. Others suspect it may have more to do with politics than policy and any "new" info.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
39. If you don't get it, it's because you don't want it
His position was 'more like AIPAC's', he took a highly partisan trip, and he promised to give Sharon more money than Sharon had even asked for.

That's not the behavior of a guy who's trying to stay neutral so he can be an honest broker!

Now he's saying that we have to be neutral, settlements have to go, etc. But he has failed to explain how he moved from being a Likud cheerleader to being a neutral party now. He hasn't offered as much as a fig leaf. So it's difficult to believe that his current stance has any substance to it.

More clear?
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. youre not crazy
and i agree with your last sentence.
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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. You form a careful argument
and wrap it in offensive, sure to cause another nasty flame war language. You know better than this, you're smarter than this. Too bad you've gone over to the dark side.
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I hope


You point this out when a Dean cult member does it to Kerry.
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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. I do
It's fast becoming my mission to become an annoying pest to all sides who engage in rude and divisive rhetoric. I'm not a particularly PC person, but I do have a strong Miss Manners streak.

(And Thanks, Dr. Funk, for changing the title. It's a start.)
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. It Was Stupid Of Me
I should never post before coffee. Apologies to all.
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the_sam Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. True
But they all are, except for the unelectables.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't know
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:39 AM by deutsey
when I saw him the other day, Dean was pretty adament about trying to return to Clinton's approach to the conflict, which was more or less neutral, wasn't it? Or maybe not neutral, but trying to be a broker between the two sides.

He did say he didn't think Arafat should be involved, however. But he went on to say that he believed a resolution could be reached in which both sides could benefit, and that it was up to the US to be the power that brings them together.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Don't worry -- this is just another "Attack Dean" thread.
(No real response is needed, nor would any response help.)
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Nor Is Any Response Possible
Your silence betrays you.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. How about "Hold Dean accountable for his OWN words" thread
and not give him a pass on important issues that he cannot grasp the way Bush's supporters do?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. So which is it BLM, why can't you bashers make up your minds...

is Dean a pro-israel puppet or a jew hater?

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. "Clinton's approach to the conflict was more or less neutral, wasn't it?"
No. Neutral would be providing the same quality and volume of brib...er, aid...to both sides. The US has never been neutral, just as Clinton wasn't being neutral when he ignored the pleas of the Bosnian Muslims who were being massacred by the Serbs. The Serbs had all the weapons, the Muslims had none, the Muslims begged to be allowed to buy some and Clinton turned them down: we were 'neutral'. And in consequence tens of thousands of Bosnian Muslims lost their fathers, brothers, husbands, and sons to war criminals (Karadzic, Mladic, and their subordinates) who will probably never be brought to book for their crimes.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Question, is it now bad to be pro-Israel and a Democrat??
That's dangerous logic, the kind of thing that loses elections.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not at all. The Dem party's position is the same as Gary Bauer's

Unconditional support for absolutely anything the Israeli government wants to do, whether it involves murdering Palestinian children or starving low income Israeli children.

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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. I Agree with you I think.
Your saying that Dean has now changed his opinion to match Kerry in saying we should not take sides. If we can't ever negotiate from the middle then we will always have war in the middle east. I think most Americans would agree with Dean.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I Like Dean's New Language, But
I have yet to see him a) take responsibility for his trip and the very un-Presidential promises he made, and b) a rejection of those promises.

Despite his gaffe about "taking sides," I have yet to see him offer anything beyond what Bush has called for.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. WHat is the big deal about this trip?

why is going to israel to see the problems first hand and learn about the sitaution a bad thing?

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. The big deal was the one-sidedness
We recognise it when we see Cheney only inviting energy-industry lobbiests in to inform energy policy, but somehow it seems harder to see when it's somebody getting the Three-Day-Two-Night-Whirlwind-Tour-That-Doesn't-Include-Unsupervised-Contact-With-Arabs.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. So funkenstein
couldn't help but notice your personal site is paid for by the Kerry campaign.

The reality is Kerry now protests that Dean is willing to evolve to a more balanced view in regards to the I\P war, while your boy is towing the line...The irony is you attack Dean for what your guy continues to defend.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. My Personal Site Is A Yahoo Group, You Yahoo!
I think I explained the difference between a "more balanced view" and bending over to Sharon in the original post. You can recognize Israel's priviliged place, but still act in our best interests through parallel concessions.

If you think Kerry has become Sharon's boy, you have definitely misread the Post article.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. didn't think anyone would scroll all the way to the bottom, huh
;-)
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Why You Little!
:pals:
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. Dean wears old dead puppies for shoes!
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. and I heard that once he left his Grandma out on the back porch in a
snow storm.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. Great. So Dean is just another pro-Isreal-Dembot.
So what's the Lieberman/Pelosi fuss about then?

You can't even pretend to be evenhanded about Israel anymore?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Good for Dean
I'm pro-Israel too. And I'm sure that the Democratic nominee for President will be too, regardless of who it is. He will of course have to sugar coat it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
22. You guys can't have it both ways
We have some morons claiming that Dean is anti-Jewish for daring to suggest that the US must be an impartial party to Middle East peace process, then we have the other side foaming at the mouth accusing Dean of being a puppet for AIPAC.

Sounds to me like the primary season is in full swing.

I will point out that the primary critics of Dean, on both sides of this equation, are the supporters of candidates that voted for the war in Iraq.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The war in Iraq, the master plan and Israel.
This morning on C-Span, Rumsfeld was asked about terrorism in Iraq. His response was that there were no longer funds going to reward the families of suicide bombers in Israel.


Whose war was this and what was it for again?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I Tried To Clarify Dean's Overstated Cover-up Of His Position
My original statement:

Dean was taken down a notch not because he was insufficiently pro-Israel, but because he doesn't know how to act Presidentially.

In trying to appease his base, he overstated his claim/lie by saying that we should not "take sides." Although the unfortunate Likud incarnation has come to represent Israel, we still have a geopolitical interest in maintaining ties with the nation we helped create (for better or worse). We are always going to "take sides."

However, that doesn't mean we have to bend over to the nation's most hawkish elements. We are free to dictate what we feel is in our best interests, and to mold Israel in that direction. That may sound Machiavellian, but it is the truth. And it is in our best interest - and Israel's - to create stability in the Mid-East.

---

Dean has never renounced his (com)promises to AIPAC and Sharon, but in trying to pacify his base (they sent around a petition on I/P) he characteristically put his foot in his mouth.

Neither of which is indicative of Presidential material.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Dean is the kind of man I want for my President so he doesn't
have to "act"...Dean just is!

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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
41. wrong
who wants it both ways? Who supports candidates that voted for the war in Iraq? Their man is already in (stolen) office. And Dean is not an AIPAC puppet? PULL THE STRINGS! PULL THE STRINGS!
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. "My Candidate Sucks So Bad That I Have To Attack Yours"
All hail CoffeePlease1947! He has come up with the perfect formula for dispelling all these negative campaign threads! All you Dean-bashers, Kerry-bashers, any-Democrat-bashers, please repeat after me: “MY CANDIDATE SUCKS SO BAD THAT I HAVE TO ATTACK YOURS.”

If I were a Bush supporter, I would be ROFLMAO to see all these Democrats ripping each other to pieces. My candidate in the general election is Anybody But Bush. As for the primaries, I haven’t decided yet. Amazing, ain’t it? Considering that the primaries are only six months away.

Come on, ladies and gentlemen! Unity, please! Eyes on the prize! BUCK FUSH!
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Sweetpea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Salut!!!!!!!
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. "hooker for AIPAC"----ROTFLMAO
Yeahm that Dean what a whore all right, looks like he's got poltiticos working for him! And we all know the Israel-Palestine mess is just the number one issue in the campaign

At least those like poster 1 seem to think so.........
:nuke:
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Yes, this kind of rhetoric
really serves to deepen and broaden our awareness, doesn't it?

:evilfrown:
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
33. "hooker for AIPAC"----ROTFLMAO
Yeahm that Dean what a whore all right, looks like he's got poltiticos working for him! And we all know the Israel-Palestine mess is just the number one issue in the campaign

At least those like poster 1 seem to think so.........
:nuke:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
42. it would be difficult if not impossible
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 06:37 AM by xchrom
for any contact the u.s. has with israel not to look tainted -- whether it's at dean's hands or any one elses.
israel is very good at courting people of influence{and perhaps that's good -- seeing how they are stting on land that up to 1948 was not theirs}.
the best the u.s. can hope for is someone who is at least open to the idea that the u.s. has been less than even handed in it's approach to brokering a peace.
i doubt if even the palestinians hope for more than that.
you are in a phase now when muslims seem drawn to deans campaign -- dean is surely aware of that constituency -- and that has to be good.
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