What is it with some men who have kids and don't take responsibility

[bloom]

for them?

<rant>

Oh, and I don't mean to insult anyone.

(But feel free to answer, anyway.)

[Career Prole]

1. I just got back from giving her a kiss and tucking her in.

So I'm off the hook, right? :bounce:

[bloom]

7. I don't know...

Have you been perfect in every other aspect of your life?

Have you done anything that could have offended single people?

Have you done anything that might have lasting psychological affects on any of your offspring?

I understand that women tend to worry about things like this.

Why aren't men worried?

Who says you are all off the hook?

There has got to be something..... right? :shrug:


:crazy:

[Career Prole]

26. I'm in trouble now! In reply...

"Have you been perfect in every other aspect of your life?"

Regrettably, far from it. I can't even see perfect from where I am.

"Have you done anything that could have offended single people?"

Single, married, cohabitating...I've prolly offended all by now, but rarely intentionally. I'm not sure how to offend single people exclusively so I probably have.

"Have you done anything that might have lasting psychological affects on any of your offspring?"

I pay particular attention to that because there's a significant family history of depression. I might be too protective, in fact.
I try not to be, honest.

"I understand that women tend to worry about things like this."

Me, too! Understand, I mean.

"There has got to be something..... right?"

There are indeed many somethings, but I take responsibility for my girl. I certainly won't leave her wealthy so near as I can figure getting her off to a good start as a caring human being is why I was born. 'Tis enough...'twill serve!

P.S. I've never been particularly fond of cats, the confession of which will no doubt land me on many "ignore" lists, but since I'm confessing anyway...there ya have it.
I'll go to my room now...it's very late! :)

[ultraist]

162. LOL!

I've been accused of being a little over protective too at times, I'm sure most parents have!

It doesn't like we need to sign you up for Clinton's program for Responsible Fatherhood! :)

BTW, I'm allergic to cats.

[Yupster]

9. Just tucked mine in too

Maybe some men didn't want a kid but he/she came anyway.

[Career Prole]

27. Mine was a surprise, too, but she grew on me.

It took an hour or so, but I found out I actually loved the little whoopsie.:)

[skids]

2. Who's insulted...

You said "some." Us men don't jump to the defense of our gender unless it is warranted, which is rarely :-)

[ultraist]

22. Correct!

The Feminist movement came about for good reason. Calling out sexist and misogynist attitudes & mores is important to many of us who are women (and some men).

[ashmanonar]

50. i want to see a movement called the

femasculinists. bc taking one side or the other doesn't solve the problem. there a lot of misogynist attitudes but there are lots of attitudes against men, especially in the feminist movement. why do people feel the need to hate the opposite gender? how about you call out the people who actually have such attitudes, make them come to the light? don't put names of "misogynist" and "sexist" on everyone, bc there are many men who don't have such attitudes. these men love and respect women but also can respect other men. it doesn't have to be either or.

sometimes the "all men are misogynist" name-calling is worse than the actual practice, bc it only makes a self-fulfilling persona for growing young men to fill.

nothing is ever black and white.

[ultraist]

54. I don't hate men, I love men, esp, my husband

Why are you trying to silence discussion about sexism and misogyny? No one here said all men are sexist. But it's common knowledge that there are misogynists attitudes in our society.

We are not talking about YOU per se, we are talking about macro issues.

[ashmanonar]

93. response Mk. II

fuck. i had a whole other response typed out, and it was accidentally deleted. suffice to say that i'm not trying to silence discussion, but to give it a different viewpoint. i don't like either position, and can't find any good reason to follow either. i'll make my own instead.

i believe in the viewpoint that men and women are equal, and by their actions and merits alone deserve respect and love from me. i won't automatically take a viewpoint simply because of the sex of the person who provides it to me.

re: the macro; what do you think the macro is made up of? the micro is equally as important as the macro. one person's viewpoint should be taken into account as well as the viewpoints of everyone else.

interestingly: i noticed that it was automatically assumed that i was attacking the discussion, instead of trying to provide a gray viewpoint (instead of black or white). i can only assume that this sickness of factionalism that has taken place between the two sexes is a socialized response, pounded into our brains, that is sparked by a life lived in this environment of mutual enmity between the sexes.

how to fix this problem? i admit that i do not know for certain. in the micro: if one person takes the center viewpoint , wherein only merits and actions and decisions matter, then it's probably a step in the right direction. in the macro: it would require a paradigm shift of the personal philosophies of all people. but don't forget: the micro can become the macro, over time. if enough people begin taking neither side but instead stands for the rights and respect of both, irrespective of sex, then something good has been accomplished.

[No Exit]

115. I thought we were not talking about YOU, we were talking about

statistical trends (though I have yet to see any sourced statistics here)? If that is the case, then YOUR love for YOUR husband is irrelevant to the discussion.

[ultraist]

142. He incinuated that I hate men, DUH

[No Exit]

165. He/she said "people", not "you"

I don't see why you took it personally.

Others have views to share, too. It seems to me (and, apparently, it seems to him/her) that you wanted to be sure only the faults of men were discussed. But why should the discussion be limited? Limiting viewpoints is not discussion.

Now you will probably remind me again, "The original thread was about some MEN who abandon their responsibilities." When will you get it that I think it's okay to spin off ideas from "the original thread"? That is what's done on every thread on a discussion forum. Sometimes the discussion gets far away from the original, but that's a good thing, b/c it makes people think.

[seabeyond]

3. bah hahaahahah

not that i want to insult with a golly laughter

[d_b]

4. See Dr. Dre's 'Chronic 2001' Album

Track 16

[BiggJawn]

5. I dunno, what's with some women who drown their kids...

..And claim "God" told 'em to do it (Andrea Yates), or because their boyfriend didn't want kids around? (Susan Smith)

Hey, I don't mean to insult anyone, either...
<sarcasm>

[bloom]

10. You're on the wrong thread

the "mothers are losers" thread is somewhere else.

[BiggJawn]

11. Sorry...

Would you rather I alerted on your "deadbeat DAD" posting?

I don't take this shit lightly, FYI...

[ultraist]

163. I'm surprised they haven't heard of Clinton's Responsible Fatherhood Int.

It was all over the news during his term and the "deadbeat dad" discussions were all over the MSM.

I remember discussing with a coworker at the time the title, "Responsible Fatherhood" and how that was a strengths based term opposed to the "deadbeat dad" term even though they meant the same thing. Both terms were coined to increase child support payments from fathers.

We had increased funding at Social Services for programs that fostered involvement of fathers since research has shown, the more involved they are, the more likely they are to pay child support.

The program has increased payments, but it needs some major adjustments. For example, I had a client who was owed a substantial amount of back child support. The CS amount was still being deducted from her TANF payments, even though she did not recieve it. Sure, this has cut the welfare rolls, but it has put mothers in a more precarious situation. Many are forced to work two jobs to compensate which means the kids are left home alone (latch key kids).

[ultraist]

23. why is the #1 cause of death of pregnant women, murder by the dad?

Men kill children more often than women do. Sorry, you have us beat on that one!

"Most fatalities from physical abuse are caused by fathers and other male caretakers> United States Department of Health and Human Services
http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/factsheets/fatality.cfm

[dsc]

28. because there are so few other causes

Pregnant women die of virtually nothing else which means that something, even a quite rare something, can then be the number one cause of death.

[tx_dem41]

30. Oh please.....don't bring logical reasoning...

and rational thought into this discussion. ;-)

[BiggJawn]

36. Really, it doesn't support the Agenda.

"Two legs GOOD, Three legs BAD!!!"

[RevCheesehead]

53. LMAO! (n/t)

[ultraist]

56. Oh, violence against women isn't a societal problem?

I guess all of the abused women and rape victims are lying bitches. That must be it.

We better not talk about social ills, some people may get upset. I get it.

[dsc]

97. That isn't what I said

I merely said that the fact that murder by boyfried is the number one cause of death in a group of people who don't often die doesn't mean that a huge number of women are dying by their boyfriend's hands. Of course it is much easier to simply make up things to respond to.

[noiretextatique]

61. "Pregnant women die of virtually nothing else..." WTF?!

you're kidding, right? preganant women aren't magically immune from the things that cause other humans to die. things like disease, car accidents, war, etc.

[dsc]

100. They are far, far, less likely to die of those than the typical person

Pregnant women are between the ages of 11 and 50 in virtually all cases and between 16 and 40 in most cases. People in that age range have miniscule cancer rates and far lower rates of disease than those in say the elderly category. That leaves things like car accidents, war, general crime, and suicide. I think we would be very hard pressed to come up with even 10 people in the US who died in war while pregnant in the last dozen years. That leaves suicide, crime, and car accidents. Since pregnancy is voluntary in this country they would be less likely to commit suicide (women already are way less likely to commit suicide). As to crime and car accidents, most pregnant women take measures to avoid risk. That would make them less likely to die of those. The fact is that people who are young, healthy, and getting medical care as most pregnant women are, don't often die.

[noiretextatique]

122. curiouser...

i wonder what the murder rates are for women between the ages of 16-40. since they are immortal, apparently, i would guess they must be very, very low.

[Tsiyu]

111. I want to live on your planet!

Here on earth, where I live, pregnancy can cause many serious complications in the female. Pre-eclampsia, toxemia, heart failure, i could go on and on, but suffice it to say, where I live, until the advances of the latter part of the last century, women routinely died from complications related to pregnancy and childbirth.

Sure sounds awesome where you live!

(the problem with some people is that they should not click on threads they know will upset them greatly. And it seems, to some men, criticism of ANY man is an attack on all men.

I would really hate to be that sensitive as a female, because females get bashed here all the time.)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. No thanks....sounds like it lacks oxygen.

[No Exit]

116. Why is the #1 cause of pregnant women the actions of "dad"

combined with the actions of "mom"?

If the ending of a life is an exertion of power, then the beginning of a life is also an exertion of power. This second power belongs to a WOMAN. With the exception of rape, the power of whether she becomes pregnant rests with the woman. She can have sex, or not have sex; she can use birth control, or not use birth control.

So some men are resentful of this exertion of power by their wife/lover/whatever. So they set out to trump HER exertion of power with their own exertion: an ending of her life. But relatively very few men engage in this horrible aberration.

Power struggle. That is what happens to a marriage/relationship when its main component is competition between the two partners.

It (the relationship) should not be a power struggle. It should be a collaboration. In continuing to insist on complete equality in each and every aspect of life, some people make this relationship into a power struggle. Men and women are not equal. They will not be equal as long as they differ biologically, no matter how many laws are passed. It is the ultimate exercise in futility to attempt to snuff out all differences between a man and a woman. And it is this attempt which sometimes places people in a power struggle. And the power struggle can lead to aberrant and horrible behavior such as murder.

[lumberjack_jeff]

151. The claim that murder is the #1 cause of death...

... for any demographic, particularly when further qualifying that the murderer is the biological father of the victim's unborn child, is suspect. My BS detector is ringing loudly.

Can you please provide a citation, preferably a link?

[fortyfeetunder]

31. Did you read the entrire story on Yates and Smith?

Yates was practically driven to the edge by a self-centered spouse who insisted on keeping her pregnant, socially isolated, also forcing her to homeschool all the kids, on top of the mental disorder that was driving her post-partum depression. I don't think Yates' wrongdoing is all her fault.

As for Susan Smith, where was her the father of her kids while she was out screwing around with an otherwise unavailable man?

Both of these women committed the ultimate in heinous crimes against their young children. However, the way they got to be mothers was not by immaculate conception.

[dsc]

32. Smith commits adultery

and her husband is at fault? Does that work for men like Ginrich too? Sorry, I don't think so. Yates, I will give you, but Smith no way.

[fortyfeetunder]

35. I didn't say the dad was at fault --

He had every right to get custody of his kids if his wife is out there philandering. It goes both ways.

[dsc]

101. Then what did this mean

As for Susan Smith, where was her the father of her kids while she was out screwing around with an otherwise unavailable man?

[tx_dem41]

33. "As for Susan Smith....."

So, let me get this straight....its the husband's fault when a woman has an affair. Using that logic, its the wife's fault when a man has an affair. What a wonderful world you have described for us. No personal responsibility.

[fortyfeetunder]

34. If the dad noticed Susan wasn't taking care of the kids

he should have taken them, period. Hell yes she is irresponsible, and any loving, caring and irresponsible father should have gotten her custody revoked.

[Blue Wally]

39. You make it sound so simple

It is a real uphill battle for a man to get a woman's custody revoked.

[auburngrad82]

37. Susan Smith was repeatedly sexually abused by her step-dad

Bev Russell, a high ranking GOP official in SC and county chairman of the Christian Coalition.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/Bev_Russell

She can't be excused for what she did but the actions of her step-dad can't be excused and may have indirectly influenced her actions.

[JoMama49]

6. i noe this is probably not pc, but our society gives men a pass

these days on accountability.Also, somehow we've convinced ourselves that Dads are not important in children's lives, that men don't need to be around for their kids. i noe firsthand how important Dads are (to my 5 little children).

[ashmanonar]

13. with the american taliban in control,

it's only gonna get worse. i think there are a lot of underappreciated dads in the world; but at the same time, a lot of the religious "right" dads make the rest of them look like scum.

that makes me angry; being male, and unmarried, i hate to think that i won't ever find a woman who doesn't think i'm total scum bc of these guys. i dont' want kids now, but i'm sure i'll change my mind sooner or later; and i want that chance at being a dad, to show that i can do as well as my dad did. i've got big shoes to fill.

[LiberalFighter]

16. I agree...

in my case I got my son too late to make an impact on his character. His mother does not have the understanding on how to raise children. She gave up her first 3. Messed up her 4th which in totality should had been a clue as to how my son would end up. 5 kids with 4 different fathers. Didn't find out all this until after she told me about him (when her husband decided to divorce her) when I researched her divorce records.

I didn't find out about him until he was 6 years old. Only had visitation and she and the delinquent daughter (4th) made it difficult to have visitation and scheduled holidays. Visitation was broken up once and I went to court to have it ordered.. got broke up again and gave up. Six years later after going thru the courts and juvenile detention centers the court (state parole) decides that I should take him.

He ended up smoking cigarettes, growing and smoking pot, stealing and destruction of property.

I have serious doubts about his future... his attitude is that he should be allowed to do anything he wants. He thinks that he can live on his own. About all I can do is tell him when he graduates from HS he can leave.

I believe that if I had had him during that 6 year gap in my home that I could had made a difference but will never know.

[ultraist]

21. But you are correct, 85% of custodial parents are MOMS

24% Divorce rate in our country. That's a lot of kids where the mom is the primary caretaker. Then of course, you have to factor in single moms who were never married. They usually have custody.

And with married parents, mothers are more often the primary caretakers, working less or not at all to care for the children.

Yes, raising children is a "woman's job" in our society. Granted, we've made progress, but the traditional mores still ring true today. But as we know from the other mom thread, being "just a mom" is not worthy. Interesting, how this all works out. ;)

[bloom]

24. "how this all works out"

It is interesting, isn't it.

The little things that women are taken to task for - and yet people just assume that they will take good care of their children - because most of them do.

It's unusual when they don't. I don't know any mothers who don't take parenting seriously. I've known a few dads, however, who haven't (one's in jail - and will be for quite awhile).

And if someone thinks I'm sensitive about the guilt that is heaped on mothers, they would be right. (The father of my kids is a peach, btw).

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. Gee, I wonder how many of those women with primary custody....

...are being paid child support by ex-husbands who are more than happy to be accountable for supporting their children in the best possible way?

Yes, it is VERY interesting to see how all of this turns out, and to see posters like yourself attempt to use statistics to support a VERY narrow line of discussion.

You sound like a very bitter person....sorry your life turned out so badly.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

134. Intertesting. So, all of those men paying child support....most gladly...

...have been given a pass? I'll have to remember that as I look back over the last 15 years of child support that I volunteered to pay, plus the two years of college for which I have also helped to pay.

Thanks for opening my eyes! All this time I thought I was being a loving and accountable father, along with the millions of fathers just like me.

(Sarcasm metter pegged out to the max.)

[saltpoint]

8. I've always felt that Janis Joplin would have sounded --

-- even better if she had a more experienced backup band.

[Tikki]

12. Sometimes we think about the future and....

we wonder if our adult son...a single parent and the sole support, physically, financially and emotionally for our precious two year old grandson....will ever make time for a social life..

The ex had no problem with dumping her child and riding off in the sunset with the next new one.

The Tikkis

[ashmanonar]

14. good for him, that he really cares

even if she didn't. he's one of the ones we should hold up and say "this is a good dad, one who will take care of his son no matter what, even if his "mother" won't. this is a man to be respected and appreciated, and looked up to."

kudos tikki-scion! :thumbsup:

on edit: here's luck for him for the future, that he'll fall in love with someone who loves his son as her own. :toast:

[Blue Wally]

40. Yeah, but if........

the mother comes back and decides shwe wants the kid, the courts will be on her side and it will be an uphill battle for your son.

[ashmanonar]

47. and that's the really scary thing.

despite the fact that SHE left, she'll still get preference in a custody battle. i'm sorry, that's just plain dumb.

[Tansy_Gold]

128. Not necessarily

My brother (in the 90s) and a good friend of mine (in the 70s) both dealt with raising small children after their wives had departed for greener pastures. Both wives eventually tried to get custudy and were denied.

[bloom]

15. Like I said

there is a different thread for people who want to insult mothers.

Or you could start another one.

We should try to stay on topic.

I wish all the best for responsible fathers.

And I wish all the irresponsible ones get hives or something.

[dsc]

29. Newsflash

You aren't the owner of this site. That person can post what they posted wherever they choose. I would be willing to bet serious money that the other thread you speak of is replete with criticism of men with nary a word of complaint from you.

[ultraist]

58. No, it's a woman bashing thread

OOPS! I forgot, we are not supposed to talk about societal ills, like oppression and social violence against women, Gays, and Blacks here. We wouldn't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

My bad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. Your "bad" is in taking such a narrow extremist point of view that...

...you are simply incapable of seeing the vast amount of gray existing in this issue. Your "bad" is in attempting to squelch any discussion of the issue that falls outside your very narrow range of belief. The post to which I'm responding is a prime example of your numerous attempts to shame people, men primarily, from participating in this thread.

If all of the above makes you feel uncomfortable, good! I hope it makes you consider the fact that the vast majority of men are not the animals you would have us all believe that they are.

[Tikki]

17. Alright, let's define 'taking responsibility"...

...the man who was my father paid the court ordered amount of child support every month of my life age 6mos~18 years...He never made an attempt to see me or contact me.
But, I believe he acted responsible...

I have a friend whose father rarely ever paid the court ordered amount of child support...but, spent a large amount of her childhood with her... taking her places and he did spend money on her.
She believes her father was a responsible father.


Tikki

[ultraist]

18. Why do only 40% of single moms receive child support?

Why do 30% of single moms live in poverty?

OH! I KNOW, I KNOW! :hi: It's because the mothers are such selfish bitches that the dads CAN'T pay child support because the moms would just spend the money on themselves, buying clothes, getting their hair and nails done, so the dads think it's best they don't pay for that.

Am I right? :bounce:

Of course, not all moms are selfish bitches, some are "obsessive compulsive" "meddling" "boring" moms that make their kids their whole lives and engage in "mindless" indignations about child rearing.

But what about the dads that don't get divorced but work long hours and don't spend much time with their kids? Or, go to sports events with their buddies rather than take the kids to the park?

* statistics from the US Census Bureau, cited in this article:
http://www.parentswithoutpartners.org/Support1.htm

[bearfan454]

48. Hold on a second please

I was divorced and paid on time every time for 14 years. I had to take IBM to court to MAKE them have the money deducted out of my check automatically. IBM didn't want to do it. I had to pay extra attorney fees to get it done. I know there are a lot of deadbeat Dads out there, but all Dads are not that way.

[ultraist]

59. We are not talking about YOU, we are talking about statistical trends

Statistics from the USCB show that many men fail to pay child support. This is fact. We are discussing major trends on a macro level.

No one said all dads are deadbeats. My husband is a great dad.

[all.of.me]

110. yup.....

"It's because the mothers are such selfish bitches that the dads CAN'T pay child support because the moms would just spend the money on themselves, buying clothes, getting their hair and nails done, so the dads think it's best they don't pay for that."

This is how my girls' dad thinks! He thinks I will spend all the money he gives me on all my alleged boyfriends instead of the kids, so instead he gives me none (or very little, I should say). He has actually SAID this to me! He denies THEM to punish ME! It is so sick. They say you don't know anyone until you live with them. Well, I have amended that to say you don't know anyone til you have kids with them. This is not the man I was originally attracted to that loved kids!!!!

[ultraist]

144. It does take a long time to REALLY get to know someone

Some people are very clever at masking who they really are. You know who the weak are when they run from responsibility.

[Porcupine]

158. Maybe they can't or won't identify the father.

I know a woman who did exactly this. Three kids by three dads in six years. That's responsible parenting right?

Maybe the father cannot afford to pay child support due to irregular work, unemployment, disability, imprisonment or a job that does not pay a living wage. I know several men in this situation.

Maybe there are other situations that are unique to different parent pairs.

Or possibly it's just easier to call "men" evil and irresponsible.

[bloom]

167. I know someone

who had 3 kids with a deadbeat and for the life of me - I'll never understand it for as long as I live. Mostly because I don't want to imagine myself doing that. It would be too painful.

But anyway - sure she was irresponsible too - but she did hold down a reasonable job after getting a couple years of schooling from a community college. He could have kept a good job - but whenever he got money - he spent it on a huge TV set instead of child support. He blew it on car stereos. He would quit his jobs rather than have money deducted for child support. He hid his inheritance. He had other kids with other mothers. And when he did have the kids for visitation - he abused them to spite the kids mothers. And so he is imprisoned now - that's the life he chose.

If anything would have made a difference - maybe prozac or something would have. Too bad he never tried to get help for himself.

And I don't think all "men" are evil and irresponsible - but I have seen my share. Other people seem to know multiple mothers who have led problem lives. It's funny how that works.

[LibDemAlways]

19. There are irresponsible parents of

both genders. My husband's cousin's wife took off with no warning and left him with two small children to raise. My daughter's best friend's dad abandoned his three kids and owes many thousands in unpaid support. The former wife's new boyfriend is housing and helping to feed that family and treated them all to Disney World over Christmas.

I'm sure everyone on this board has similar examples.

Parenting is the toughest job anyone will ever have. Those who stay in the trenches and keep working at it - often in spite of great obstacles - are heroes.

[barb162]

20. my personal feeling on that what is important to these guys

is they have passed on their genes and can say "I am a father" or tell people I fathered X many kids whether they take care of them or not. And they don't give a damn about raising the kids and in fact don't want to. They want to keep their genetic material in the gene pool and BRAG about their siring abilities.

[Blue Wally]

41. and all of the women were raped?????

Men only get to sire a child if a woman spreads her legs. If women would size up a guy better and find out how responsible he was beforehand, a lot of these problems would go away.

[barb162]

46. that's the other sick part of the story isn't it? I was watching

this one PBS show where this woman was having her third kid or whichever number with the same guy. She was on welfare and he was a druggie who stood around on street corners and screwed a lot of different women. You'd think she'd never want to see this bozo again but then they showed her having the latest kid (his) in the hospital and he was there and was so proud and thrilled he had another kid. It was clear from the story he wasn't supporting this kid or his other kids with other women. When he went back to his street corner he was telling the other guys how he got another kid, like wow look at me, I'm a real stud, I've got 8 kids with 5 different women.
I have to assume all of these women know this guy is MR. Irresponsibility, since his job is to stand on the corner with his buddies and have kids with different women

[ultraist]

60. It's the woman's fault men don't take responsibility?

Okey dokey. Blame the victim, yep heard the fundies use that same argument many a time.

FYI: If the dad doesn't want a child and the responsibility for it, he should put a condom on his equipment.

[Blue Wally]

70. Yes, blame the "victim"

Except in a case of rape, it takes the womans consent to let him in. She can demand he wrap his tool, or better yet, find a more responsible partner.

Part of a woman's right to choose. She shouldn't choose to get impreganted by an irresponsible man.

[barb162]

80. IMO, those two people should not have been having kids they

couldn't support

[GiovanniC]

75. Damn My Evil, Evil Penis

It's evil power to make me irresponsible is impossible to escape. My genitalia forces me to become an irresponsible prick! If only, if only I were a WOMAN! For truly, that is the only way to be a responsible adult.

[ultraist]

76. BWHAHAHAHA!!! The devil made him do it!

Actually, it's EVE's fault, the evil woman that FORCED him to eat fruit from the forbidden tree.

[Blue Wally]

102. Maybe not Eve's fault.........

If you believe in evolution instead of creationsim, you should expect the human spcies to evolve in adaptation to the environment. Maybe women haven't adapted yet. They are still looking for the over-muscled knuckle dragger that can club a sabertooth to death. When he turns out to be irresponsible, it is too late. Anyone who has had teenage daughters is suitably appalled at the human debris that otherwise intelligent females will bring to your door.

[barb162]

82. what kind of weird comment is this? IS there some problem with 2 people

who can't support a kid on their own having 3 kids? Yep, I'd say so.Both these people were poster kids for irresponsibility

[GiovanniC]

86. I'm Just Saying That Until I Read This Thread, I Thought I Was Responsible

I now know that's impossible, because I have a penis.

[ultraist]

87. You are confused

My comment was not in response to yours. It was in response to the comment that blamed Eve, I mean the woman, for a man not taking responsibility for his child.

The topic of the thread is: why some men don't take responsibility

[barb162]

79. FYI: both people should use birth control if they don't want kids

Where do you get the question of your first sentence? Maybe it is the fault of BOTH people?? Read what I wrote again...basscially that it takes two to tango and in this case 2 people were having kids the state is supporting.

[ultraist]

83. Doesn't matter, once the child is born, he IS responsible for it

LEGALLY and ETHICALLY

[barb162]

112. that guy was responsible only for standing on the corner boasting

about what a great cocksman he is. He gives a crap about legality and ethics and supporting his kid

[ultraist]

145. I don't disagree that many men don't give a crap about the kids

It's the "woman's duty" to care for the children.

[Yupster]

118. Legally yes

Ethically, no. I don't agree with you there.

I believe in the right to choose.

I don't believe either partner should have parenthood and its responsibilities forced on them without their agreement.

And no. To me the act of having sex is not agreeing to be a parent in advance.

[OneBlueSky]

25. just to keep things in perspective, there are also a lot of moms . . .

who don't take responsibility for their children . . . just look at the number of abused and abandoned kids in this country . . . when it comes to neglecting children, it's not just men who are at fault . . .

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. What is it with some women who have kids and don't take responsibility....

There's a real danger in making broad generalizations of any kind, don't you think?

[Berserker]

45. What is it with

discrimination against men. This is yet another loped sided flame bait thread about men. In this society we live in women automatically are assumed to be the best parent and we as men have to Prove in court at GREAT expense that the mother is unfit or she will get the children.

Then of course men pay child support most of which is far beyond what it really costs to support the child. The women that get the child support should have to Prove where every penny of that money goes or the money should be put in a savings under the child's name where she cannot get to it.
And if we miss a payment and there is NO excuse what so ever to do so we are arrested and put in jail. Then the female sometimes gets spousal maintenance which I believe is a huge steaming pile of crap. If the tables were turned you would see new laws immediately.

[ashmanonar]

51. you sound as if this has happened to you.

but you're also right. there is a decidedly genderist attitude when it comes to child-raising.

[ultraist]

66. "Discrimination against men?" Sexism doesn't exist?

Wow! I didn't know that discrimination against hetero white males was a social ill.

Do you have any facts (research and statistics) to support your claim?

Or are you basing that claim on your own personal experience and one case?

[Berserker]

104. ultraist .. who said

I was talking about hetero white males? Race has nothing to do with this. NO this is not one case and thats a very shallow statement. Look up the stats yourself it seems you are the one thats uninformed.

[ultraist]

146. I have looked at the stats, you obviously haven't! LMAO!

[ultraist]

64. There is a danger in discussing social problems?

Wide scale social problems shouldn't be discussed?

If people are too fragile to discuss social problems because they are incapable of post conventional reasoning (ie unable to step outside of their narrow egocentric perspective), then they don't have to participate in such discussions of oppression against women, Gays, and minorities.

[GiovanniC]

73. The Solution to the "Oppression of Women" Is NOT

The oppression of men.

A woman who claims that men are responsible for a societal problem that both men and women contribute to is just as sexist as a man who claims that women are responsible for societal problems both contribute to.

If we are to truly be equal, then let it be so.

[ultraist]

77. I'm not advocating for the oppression of men

I'm simply having a discussion about societal ills, major trends we can identify.

Shall we also not discuss racism and homophobia?

I disagree, women are not primarily responsible for the oppression against them, just as Gays are not responsible for the oppression against them. They are not their own oppressors!

[GiovanniC]

88. Let Me Try to Explain the Difference Between SOME and ALL

By this thread's logic, a gay person can rail against all straight people and hold them all responsible for homophobia. SOME straight people are homophobic. But not ALL straight people. That's why it would be wrong to say, "Straight people are homophobic!"

Similarly, SOME men are irresponsible. But not ALL men. That's why it is wrong to say, "Men are irresponsible!"

[ultraist]

98. No one said ALL men are irresponsible, did they?

You are freaking out, making shit up, guy.

[GiovanniC]

105. This Thread is Filled With "Men Don't Take Care of Their Family"

Bullshit. Not "some men". Just "men".

[ultraist]

147. Apparently you did not read the OP, it does say "some men"

[Blue Wally]

96. Doesn't sound like much of a discussion

When you begin with the postulate that oppression exists in this case.

[No Exit]

114. Yes, there is--if someone tries to dominate the discussion

and lock out any points which he/she might not like. Which, in my perception, is what you are doing in some of your posts here.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

132. Insulting the views of other posters is not exactly an invitation to...

...an open and free discussion, is it?

Perhaps you're the one who is "too fragile to discuss social problems".

[twenty2strings]

42. People get together for stupid reasons..then get pregnant...

The twin headed demon of sex and romantic entanglement is not taken seriously. A tough love program,where people have to sit in divorce court and observe for a week or so other peoples stupid mistakes might be good. People have kids like they're buying a puppy at the pet store. Hey,puppies get big and they are very expensive. Many modern young people just hook up,not expecting anything more. That's sad but, with proper birth control might be a good idea after all. Shallow people make lousy parents.:think:

[GiovanniC]

43. If Your Intention Was TRULY to Criticize Those Who Have Children and Don't

take responsiblity for them, your title would have been, "What is it with some PARENTS who have children and don't take responsibility for them?"

That wasn't your intention though. Your intention was to specifically go after one particular gender, and for that, you are sexist. Your comment is not any different than asking, "What is it with black people who don't take care of their kids? (no offense)"

It's bullshit, and it's flamebait, pure and simple.

Sincerely,

A caring father of four

[ProdigalJunkMail]

49. amen to PARENT rather than MEN...n/t

[ultraist]

67. We are discussing major societal trends, not YOU

[GiovanniC]

72. But It Is Not Only Men Who Abandon Their Families

Women do it too. This thread makes no bones about implying that it is MEN who do not live up to their responsibilities, while ignoring the exact same behavior from women. It is sexist and it is wrong.

[ultraist]

78. The topic was "some men" and more men do than women

look it up

[GiovanniC]

89. The Point Is That Women Are Irresponsible Too

In exactly the same way. And that is being conveniently ignored here.

Both genders have an equal capacity for irresponsibility.

[ultraist]

148. I didn't write the OP! Did you read it?

How do you know what his/her intention was?

[No Exit]

44. Yeah, but

when I see some of these loser-type guys out there, I have to look at the mothers of their children and inwardly I am asking the women, "You bred with THAT???"

It cuts both ways, of course. (What's so terrible about turning down a total loser when he or she asks for a roll in the hay?)

[ashmanonar]

57. i believe the answer to this is...

look at the parents. the people who have children with "losers" usually have some family trauma in their past (a deadbeat dad, or a mom that doesn't care) that reflects on their present situation.

this problem, of people having kids and getting married SIMPLY bc they feel like they can't find anyone else to be with is self-sustaining. it's a vicious cycle. i don't know how to break the cycle, but we should try. bc it, more than anything else, is leading to the high divorce rate in the US, and all the other problems that only come about over a generation (ie not right this moment)

[ultraist]

69. right, it's the woman's fault the man split

:eyes:

[GiovanniC]

74. And What of Women Who Split?

Or shall we cover our ears and shout "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when the fact comes up that both genders have an equal capacity for irresponsibility?

[No Exit]

107. No, but it's sure as hell her fault for porking the p.o.s. in the first

place!!

There used to be this thing called "courtship". Later it was called "dating", and it was used by people to see if the person they were sexually attracted to was really as good as he or she appeared.

But why would we bother, in a cheap, consumerist society, where everything, even love, even sex, is nothing but a disposable commodity?

I don't know about you, but I always felt I had better things to do than to be used as a disposable commodity (much like a beer bottle which is drained and thrown away within half an hour) by a man.

[radwriter0555]

52. As in the 70% of the people on welfare? Just think; MEN are responsible

for the fact that 70% of the people on welfare are children? And that the average age of people on welfare is age 9?

I blame men for not taking responsibility for their families.

[GiovanniC]

55. On Behalf Of Men Everywhere Who DO Take Responsibility

Kiss my :kick:

[noiretextatique]

63. what is the problem with discussing those who don't take responsibility

clearly doing so is not an indictment of those who do. and i know several who don't...more who don't than do in fact. sorry if you take that personally, but it is the truth. my dad was a great provider and the best father he could be, but a few of his brothers abandoned their children. that is still a problem for many women i know raising kids without the financial or life assistance of the fathers of those children.

[GiovanniC]

71. Two Problems

First, if you want to discuss people who don't take responsibility, then discuss PEOPLE who don't take responsibility. Not just MEN. Not just WOMEN. Anything else is bullshit.

Second, the statement "I blame men for not taking responsibility for their families" was a broad generalization that is worthy of the utmost contempt. It is similar to saying, "I blame blacks for being criminals" or "I blame women for defrauding the welfare system".

[ultraist]

81. The topic of discussion is MEN who do not take responsibililty

If you want a different topic, start your own thread. In discussions of why many men don't take responsibility, cultural mores, trends and attitudes will come up as they are very relevant.

There are different reasons men refuse to take responsibility than the ones for women.

If open dialogue about sexism threatens you, don't read it.

[GiovanniC]

91. Please Enlighten Me

Why are women irresponsible and how is it different than men?

[No Exit]

113. OK, so women are relegated to permanent victim status in this discussion.

Heaven forbid the discussion would lead to anything you don't approve.

What about the women who refuse to be victims?

There are better things a woman can do than sit around in some coffee klatsch, wringing her hands and talking about how she was wronged by "men"--EVEN if in fact she HAS been wronged by some men.

There's a simple way to reduce the suffering which results if a man "refuses to take responsibility": value yourself. Let your identity be dependent on things within you, rather than on anything to do with whatever man you happen to be lovin' it up with at the time.

The average man is not dependent on his particular relationship with his wife, lover, whatever, for his entire identity. And accepting responsibility for her own fate will empower a woman far more than will sitting around wringing her hands, talking about how "men" are responsible for all these evils.

[noiretextatique]

121. how condescending can you be? very, apparently

when one parent abdicates his/her responsibility to care for a child, the consequences (for the responsible parent and the child) amount to far more than "he did me wrong." i have seen women who allowed bitterness and revenge far too much room in their lives, but i can understand that given the fact that the average women still earns less than the average man. a woman i know is raising three teenaged children...that's food, housing, medical expenses, clothes, etc. she's needs money, time, and energy not a heartfelt apology or empowerment pychobabble, since she is the sole provider for four human beings, three of whom have a father who has never provided anything for them. the issue is more about economics than hurt feelings, and every woman i know is this situation has no choice but to improve her self and her skills. coffee klatch? most single parents i know don't have time for such trivial bs :eyes:

[No Exit]

126. If you want to see "condescending", check out

some of the posts by "ultraist". The adjective "domineering" also applies.

Through my work, I represent many a woman who has children, little money, a poor job (if any), and who has been abandoned by some man who moved on to greener pastures.
Here's one of the ways the cycle of failure starts. This is just an EXAMPLE, based on a situation I see frequently. A woman has sex when she is in her teens. (Not talking about her being molested--which is a separate issue.) Gets pregnant. Maybe this happens twice... resulting in two children and a mother who is about 20. At some point the woman is either with the father of her children, or with one of the fathers (if there are two different fathers.) She may marry; or maybe not, if she or the man don't want to marry.

Then the man moves on to some other woman--or he is perhaps too obnoxious for her to stand, in which case SHE moves on. Usually she moves on to another man. However, at some point she may (temporarily) not be with a man. (But she usually IS with a man--b/c men can be a source of much-needed money.)

Generally, the women in this situation I see have not gotten their high school diploma b/c they got pregnant and the disruption caused them to drop out. Usually the women get their GED, eventually.

The woman in this example is now relegated to low-paying jobs, b/c she doesn't even have a high school diploma... even if/when she gets a GED, that doesn't move one very far up on the pay scale. The man she has likely had kids with is usually equally uneducated.

So both of them do the lower-end jobs. BUT men in that bracket might do construction, or offshore work. These jobs pay more BECAUSE THERE IS PHYSICAL RISK INVOLVED. Can the women get such jobs? Yeah, probably so, but frankly, most women have a greater regard for their personal safety than to go around on roofs, or work on an oil rig. So they get jobs as maids or store clerks instead. Lots less money.

The only times this woman has enough money to relax is when she's just linked up to a new man--a man who is no doubt shunning HIS own children, but showering money on our "example" woman (and her children) b/c she's his new girlfriend.

"Empowerment psychobabble"? The babble here is the b.s. about how women are SOOOO victimized by "men" and "the unfair system".

If the father of the children in YOUR post was such a worthless turd that he left FOUR CHILDREN with NO SUPPORT, don't you think the woman might have caught on, perhaps somewhere btw the 3rd and 4th child, that she SHOULDN'T BREED WITH THIS MAN B/C HE WAS AN UNCARING P.O.S.???? What the hell ever happened to PLANNING???? I can understand an unintentional pregnancy; maybe even 2 unintentional prenancies. But FOUR?? Four children produced b/c she kept breeding with a man who is scum who abandons his family??

Women have brains, just like men. Imagine that. Women should be able to figure things out. Should be able to PLAN--at least every now and then. A woman can take control of her personal situation, just as a man can. Excluding mental illness on her part, that is exactly what any woman should do. If she doesn't, it isn't entirely the abandoning man's fault. To hell with the man! Quit keening about his "wrongs"; a woman needn't be fooled by "men" and by the system OVER AND OVER.

For the record, I am a woman--not one of those "evil" men.

[noiretextatique]

127. the woman in my story

has a BA and works in a managerial position...she actually figured out that she needed to get better skills, and she did that without your assistance. as i told you, i am all for women taking care of themselves, however the fact is that women still earn less than men, and as you well know, rearing children costs money. i know women just like the ones you are talking about, and understand that dependency is a part of their problem...that and lack of skils. some still buy into the belief that the knight in shining armor will come to save them. but, as i mentioned, the EFFECT of parental abandonment is mainly ECONOMIC, and i agree that women need to get a whole lot smarter about the men they choose. still, the person who bears the most blame is the parent who fails to take responsibility for the children he brings into the world, and of course that person can be female. again "he done me wrong" is an insulting dismissal of the EFFECT of parental abandonment on the custodial parent, the children, and society.
btw, i know plenty of women who work in traditionally male occupations...they must have figured out the pay is better on their own.

[No Exit]

130. Then there is more agreement

here than there is disagreement. (What pissed me off about the other poster's posts was the "big sister"--and that goes even if ultraist is a man--tone, and the attempts to cut off the discussion from going outside what he/she seemed to think was its proper limits. Why should discussion be limited? Why not let ideas progress as far as they will?)

Yes, an important effect of parental abandonment is economic; an important (but far-flung) cause of it may also be economic.

There is one attitude I would like to see change. That is the attitude that MANY women have that they are "nothing" without a man on their arm. I have seen this attitude among even women who seemed to be the epitome of the liberated woman. That is, they were educated, financially successful, attractive, you name it... yet some of them seemed to be happy only if they could show the world (and their ex) that "see, *I* can attract someone, too!"

Yes, the woman in your story did pull herself up ("without my assistance"); however, this self-improvement seems to have come after the children were already in the world. Such personal growth is a good thing, but it is also a struggle, and it doesn't happen overnight. In the meantime, the little people who resulted from the early mistakes are growing up in the midst of the struggle. If only people could do their self-improvement (which every person needs) and growing up BEFORE they had children. That way, the children themselves would be less likely to repeat the cycle of "have unprotected sex now, pay later". All it takes is birth control! (Birth control fails? Weigh the pros and cons of having an abortion, then.)

Of course, the abandoner's attitude--"have unprotected sex now, DON'T pay ever" is a far worse thing. People who think like that should be shunned, and they certainly should never be allowed to "score". How do we know which people to shun? One doesn't know, at first. One has to take a good look at a person before having sex with him/her--especially if pregnancy is a possible result. That's why sex should be preceded by planning. (If someone doesn't want to wait, all they have to do is plan enough to use birth control.)

I knew a woman who got a job cleaning out the inside of the hulls of ships. Yes, the pay was good. Frankly, I'd rather take less pay and not do something which is considered one of the dirtiest, most hazardous jobs. The path out of having to choose btw an unsafe job and one which pays little is to become educated. But education takes time--and people who want instant gratification never go for it.

[noiretextatique]

131. i totally agree

as often happens in discussions, extreme responses illicit extreme responses, and so the cycle continues. the great thing is, the more we discuss, the more we communicate. I HEAR YOU :7 especially about the dependency and self-obliteration that continues to plaque far too many women when it comes to men. and about the need for self-improvement vs. taking whatever life serves up to you. i work as a contract accountant and i did a long-term assignment at a government agency. the women who worked there were all single mothers. when a supervisory position opened, a few of the women felt they should be considered for the position, but NONE had bothered to get a degree or take any classes at the university affliated with the agency. they had tuition reimbursement and scholarships they could have take advantage of, but they didnt. when the job went to an outsider with a degree, they were even more bitter. but the fact remains...they didn't take advantage of the opportunties available to them. i know it's hard to do with children, especially young ones, but you are right about teaching children that self-improvement is important, valuable...and required.
my sister spent many years being bitter about her ex-husband, and a lot of time and energy pursuing him for child support. in the end, she did get him to relinquish parental rights, but as i told her: imagine where you could have been if you had put some of the energy you spent on him into YOU. she had he support of my parents and our family to help her with her three kids, so she could have gone to law school or business school or social work school, as she wanted...but she didn't.
believe me: i hear you loud and clear. thanks for the discussion, and i'm sure we'll meet again :hi:

[No Exit]

140. Very good points, and UR welcome!!

[ultraist]

150. You love to insult people, don't you?

How many names are you going to call me? Don't you have more self respect than that? Please try to show some semblance of dignity if you have any.

The TOPIC of the OP was why do "some men" fail to take responsibility?

[No Exit]

160. Calm down. I don't believe in demonizing anyone solely b/c of their gender

And I also don't believe that any discussion must be limited by some overly-strict adherence to the exact words of the original comment. That's not discussion--it's groupthink.

It is worth noting that your very first comment to me was an attack, coupled with a misrepresentation of what I had said.

[radwriter0555]

84. Why do men think they're special if they do what they're supposed to do?

What's up with that?

Why do men think they're heros for changing a diaper or paying child support?

[GiovanniC]

85. Why Do Women Make Wide Generalizations All The Time

When they know -ZERO- about a situation?

[ultraist]

90. We are not talking about YOUR situation

We are talking about major trends in society. It is a FACT that more men abandon their children than do women. It is a FACT that women are not treated equally in our society. The underlying causes for men not taking responsibility are pretty apparent: sexist and misogynist attitudes that prevail in our society.

Look up the numbers.

[GiovanniC]

92. I See Men All Around Me Being Responsible

And three women who have abandoned their families around me in the past two years... this situation cuts both ways and to imply otherwise is disingenous.

If the true intention was to have an actual discussion about the reasons for parental irresponsibility, then a gender wouldn't have been specified. The whole purpose of this thread is to bash men, and its a behavior that's excused simply because man-bashing isn't sexist, only women-bashing is.

[ultraist]

99. Like I said, this discussion is not about YOU, but statistical trends.

If you think you data on three people you know is more reliable than USCB data, dream on.

[GiovanniC]

106. Yes, Well, I Suppose That All The Men That Are Responsible Really Aren't

And all the women who are irresponsible really aren't, either, because they do not fit with the all-important 'statistical trends'.

That way, we can continue to go around and say, "Men are irresponsible and don't take care of their families, and that never happens with women!" even though it's a complete steaming pile of cow dung.

You cannot run around painting people with a broad brush. If you truly have a problem with parental irresponsibility and people who abandon their families, you will acknowledge that it is a problem that affects people of BOTH genders. But you refuse to do that, choosing instead to use it as a club to bash one particular gender with, which says an awful lot about you.

[ashmanonar]

94. again i have to say that the problem may not be an issue of

trends but causes. what makes "more men abandon their children than do women?" therein lies the answer, methinks.

personally? i believe it's a generational problem that occurs when a generation in which many dads (and moms) abandon their kids then the kids proceed to do the same. anyone got any ideas on the ultimate cause of this?

[Blue Wally]

103. What percent ?????

What percent of those children on welfare have a biological father capable of caring for them financially but who just wont??

What percent of those children have a biological father who couldn't rub two nickels together?

[FlemingsGhost]

62. Ask the women who bore their children.

Apparently, at one point, there was redeeming value in him.

[porphyrian]

65. Oh, there you go...

...wanting people to be responsible for their actions and how they affect the future...

[noiretextatique]

68. the perpetual child syndrome

is what i see in my brother and brother-in-law. they never took responsibility for their children because THEY DON'T HAVE TO. women who fail their children are not looked upon kindly by this society, but there isn't the same disdain for men who fail their children. raising children is still seen as woman's work, for the most, and men can still opt out if they choose. my brother wife was also a pathetic loser, so my parents took on the responsibility of raising my brother's son. grandparents taking on primary care responsbilities was (is?) an epidemic in part because of drugs, especially crack, and of course women and men became addicts and are unable to care for their kids.
clearly this isn't just a personal issue...there are cultural and societal realities to the issue also.

[ashmanonar]

95. yep.

perpetual child syndrome is right. it does affect both sexes tho.

i think it begins when people don't make their kids take responsibility for their actions at a young age. then they continue to just do things for their kids, until the kid should be a legal adult...they're set free into the world without any knowledge of the real world. welcome to the present day.

[noiretextatique]

123. that certainly applies in my brother's case

and of course, it does apply to both sexes. one of my friends was abandoned by her mother...she still carries the pain of that experience at 47. her mother kept her sons, but gave away her daughters, and she kept the girls away from each other. they didn't get to know each other until they were adults. i've heard many stories like hers (and much, much worse) over the years. the things people do to their children is heartbreaking. i never wanted children because i knew it would take most of my life to heal from my own childhood experiences...and it has. too bad more people don't realize they shouldn't have children.

[ashmanonar]

125. i'm willing to wager that most of the "unlooked for" children

truly were accidents. people don't think of the consequences of their actions, and a great percentage of teens have sex before they're out of high school. it's recreational, but they don't realize that there are serious side effects to sex: one of them, namely, is pregnancy.

and i'll bet many of those kids aren't ever talked to seriously about sex, bc either their parents don't want to "give them ideas" or their churches deny them this...guess what, kids have sex. it happens all over the world. and some people are more prepared and armed for it than others (some states have wonderful sex ed programs, that give teens the real facts. others want to keep teens ignorant and locked into the young pregnancy cycle.)

incidentally: my parents never really explained to me about sex, i figured it out on my own. and i haven't had sex yet. *shrug*. i think they figured they raised me well enough to that point, they didn't need to worry about it. i'm still not sure if they're right or not...:evilgrin:

[Yupster]

119. I saw this a lot

as a teacher.

I think we're in trouble when the next generation starts having their kids and there won't be a generation of grandparents able and willing to take care of them.

Unless the druggie losers straighten themselves out enough to be good baby-raising grandparents which I don't see happening.

What an odd evolutionary shift where the parents are irresponsible and their parents raise the kids. Could that go on for generations and become culture? Weird to think of it.

[noiretextatique]

124. actually, it has gone on for generations

when extended families tended to live near each other. or when, as in my case, there was no reliable child care available. i went to live with my grandmother for a year until i was old enough to go to school. and of course, irresponsible parents are nothing new. but you are right about the current situation...it's an epidemic. i can't imagine what the long-term consequences will be...except a lot of angry kids turning into angry adults. and perhaps a lot more elderly people society will have to take care of because their children feel no obligation to do so. i can see that happening with my brother-in-law and my sister's kids. they have no real connection to him, other than genetic, so i doubt they will be around in his old age.

[Bouncy Ball]

108. Eh. I don't know.

The father of my child has been here every single day. Gave her dinner and put her to bed tonight while I was at school.

I can't speak for any others.

:shrug:

[Bouncy Ball]

109. I guess this is as good a place as any to say that

I think the family courts system too often are biased in favor of moms. I'm not saying moms shouldn't have their kids, but when joint custody would be feasible and good, too often moms get whole custody and dads get visitation privileges. In absence of neglect and/or abuse, I just don't understand that.

My own dad lost custody of us because he didn't have a pricey attorney. He was a blue collar guy, embarrassed of the dirt under his nails he never could quite get cleaned up and his cheap Sunday suit. He felt out of place in that marble court. And he fought as hard as he could, but lost us anyway.

HE was the loving parent. Our mom was the insane (no, literally), abusive and neglectful parent and she got FULL custody. Explain that to me.

Now I know that was the 70s, but from what I see, it isn't too much different now. I've known too many dads who throw in the towel, because they are convinced they are going to lose.

There ARE deadbeat parents, but they come in BOTH genders. Both.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. One of the fairest posts in this entire thread....thanks!

[bloom]

154. courts don't always get the picture

I think they try.

I can just as easily give you the story of my relative whose husband was abusive and got the high priced lawyer and who managed to charm the courts into getting whatever he wanted.

And sure there are deadbeat parents of both genders. It's pretty sad when the most abusive person wins - either way.

[seabeyond]

117. guess i am standing up for fathers now, a funny to me

i thought this thread was a joke to the woman thread, i guess it is being taken further than a giggle. so i will share

i have two brothers with kids. both mom are not fit to be moms. they are not fit, because they chose to not be fit, not because they are not capable. they should not be raising the kids (actually they should, they arent) and the fathers have taken on the "mom/nurturing" role

i watched older brother do everything first couple years to create a seperate yet harmonious relationship to raise daughter. didnt work. then i watched brother for 8 years, over 150k fight for his daughter. her right to not be drugged, her right to be parented in the basics like washing body and brushing teeth. he academics like not flunking kindergarten, 1st 2nd 3rd 4th grade.

always the psychiatrists, lawyers and judges said best interest of child. conclusion was always, good father, child needs father, father needs to continue being a part of childs life regardless of the anger it created in mom that effected child,............mother wasnt that "that" bad. she wasnt beating the child. now the father is good, good paying job, responsible adult. mother, not that bad.

and inevitably this woman was awarded the child

until last summer when she kidnapped her at 12, put her in hospital and said the child was going to kill herself at 12, and then left child in trouble kids home.

only then, 8 years later and over 150k did my brother get custody

my husband is excellent.
my father is excellent
every male i "know" is excellent

lucky me.

i wont dump on a male anymore than a woman. i wont dump on the child. i wont dump on the single. i wont dump on the childless

this is to point of absurdity

[bloom]

120. I think it was obvious to the people

who were participating on the

"What is it with some women who become mothers and cease to be anything" thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3159163

that this was some kind of lame attempt at equal parent bashing. I could have gone after single people - but it gets to me more to have mothers attacked while dads get a free pass. It's sort of funny to think - it did not occur to anyone on the other thread to accuse fathers of being so obsessed about their children that they seldom speak of anything else.

While someone could say that points to fathers being more "balanced" or something, it seems like it also points to the likelihood that fathers ARE less likely to be AS involved in their children's lives.

We all have our own experiences. When my children were babies, my husband and I shared a job. So I could do the job or he could do it. If he was doing the "job" - he would be focused on the job. If he were watching the kids - he often went to sleep and had them just watching the TV. I could do the job just the same as he could - but when I was with the kids - I WAS WITH THE KIDS. I didn't sleep through it and I didn't just leave them to do whatever. (Maybe we read books or painted or whatever).

And I think my husband is one the better dads. (He was also taking night classes - so it's not like he didn't have any excuse - but still - he could do the "job" just fine - why not put the same effort into child raising :shrug: )

So a lot of dads on this thread jumped in and got very offended. I appreciate dads who do all the dad stuff and are responsible - I really do - and you're welcome to think that I'm sexist because I think moms are more likely to take parenting seriously and less likely to abandon their responsibilities than men. Maybe I am (sexist). Whatever.

[Yupster]

141. Your husband sounds good

well, for a man anyway.

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. I think you are, but at least you're nice about it.

My wife and I have three kids. 15, 12 and 6. Having missed the older two as they grew up, I felt deprived of the experience. When our middle child was born, my wife stopped working to be a stay-at-home mom. Three years ago, (after a 20 year career) I was laid off and at about the same time, our youngest was diagnosed with a form of autism.

The wife went back to work and we readjusted our finances to deal with the new $ reality. So I'm a stay-at-home dad, dealing with the challenges of a child with a very significant disability, and building us a new house on weekends and while the kids are at school.

It's a great thing, and I'm glad to have not missed out on the 6 year-old's childhood, but I resent two things a great deal;
1) the stereotype that men abandon their families, when
2) it's highly atypical for fathers to be given custody of their children, (unless mom has a really terrible and obvious drug problem) and when they seek it, the request is dismissed with a stereotype "he's only doing it to save child support". I find that the reverse is rarely said about moms in custody battles. In fact, I know many fathers who were powerless when mom moved to another state with their kids, leaving only a POB for child support checks. Visitation is not enforced to the extent that child support is. If the best interest of the children (as opposed to the custodial parent) were the overriding consideration, involvement by both parents would be enforced and encouraged.

I think dads are in no way less serious about the responsibility of parenting, and if anything understand the big picture that the job of parenting is to produce the next generation of independent, conscientious, responsible adults.

I'm not going to disparage moms contribution - it is different and equally important. Children need discipline and moral guidance in the same proportion as caregiving and emotional support.

One last thing; men aren't the only source of the problems identified in this thread. A co-worker of my wife was recently commenting on her husband's desire to be a SAHD, "I can't understand how any self-respecting man could consider just staying home."

Having your cake (men are so irresponsible) and eating it too (my body, my choice) is a good situation, when you think about it.

"Men should be responsible for women's choices" is problematic. From a purely political standpoint, this is one of the reasons that men are less likely to vote democrat.

[bloom]

156. I've heard

that women are less likely to pay child support than men are. :spank:

But men are more likely to say that they should not have to pay anything because they weren't in a relationship (that's not really going to work for women).... :spank:

RE: "Having your cake (men are so irresponsible) and eating it too (my body, my choice) is a good situation, when you think about it."

I don't think all men are irresponsible by any means. And I don't blame all the problems when things break down, etc. on them. To be honest, though - I do resent the men with the attitude that they can just blow it off - or that try to gig the system so they get out of paying. Most do it by having crappy jobs & quitting, being irresponsible, etc. - though there was this thread today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1265150

I also hear still, even now, about cases where something happens to the mother and the kids go live with grandma instead of the dad dealing with the responsibility of raising their own kids. (I'm sure women have done this - but what gets me is the attitude that men "can't" parent - or they can't be tied down - but like women can...)

I'm glad that women have the choice option - but I'm not one to take it.


I think it's a good thing that parenting is becoming more flexible as far as men participating or doing being the primary care-givers. Sometimes that makes more sense. Some dads might be better at it than the moms.

It sounds like it's working out for you.


I am pretty lucky to have the responsible husband that I have - it seems to run in my family for women to pick irresponsible, abusive guys (Republicans, too).

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. Perhaps that's why there is such a strong reaction...

...from the male DU posters. Every woman I know who chose badly chose Republicans.

I'm not implying that my wife is any less (or more) suited to being stay-at-home parent. We both have our strengths, but teenage sons perhaps have more of a need for my style. :spank:

But men are more likely to say that they should not have to pay anything because they weren't in a relationship (that's not really going to work for women)

Male decoding 101: "Relationship" means "shared decisionmaking".

Is this a surprise? Would you appreciate being informed that a man you'd dated one time had signed your name to a 18-22 year mortgage on a house in another state that you won't be allowed to live in? Might you take your moral responsibility to keep that house maintained somewhat cynically? And of course it doesn't work for women, because the women you describe had a unilateral choice on what responsibilities the men in your example would assume.

I do agree that some men exist with the attitudes you suggest - and I resent them too. HOWEVER, I think that we as democrats can all agree that people are largely a product of their upbringing. Is it surprising that a child who's father has been systematically excluded from a meaningful role in their upbringing, (A paycheck by itself does not qualify as meaningful) would lack the recognition of the profoundly important role that a father has in a childs life? (A society that invented the phrase "father figure" should not be surprised that subsequent generations don't understand the moral importance of being one)

I personally know examples of courts giving maternal grandparents custody of children instead of a willing and able dad.

[bloom]

170. "Is this a surprise?"

No - but that's why people shouldn't put themselves in that situation. Or if they do - there can be consequences. And while you might think that the woman is choosing or not choosing - some women don't see it as a choice they can accept. THEY have to live with it.....
So while I am not surprised - and while I can understand men not being happy - I'm not really all that sympathetic because I think what the woman has to go through is actually quite a bit more extreme - life changing and all that.

As far as maternal grandparents getting custody when a father is willing and able - well that is really messed up.


I posted a link to a task force thingy about this - and I think they had some good points about people needing to address deep societal biases and preconceptions. People have to believe in the ability of men to be single, responsible fathers or the whole thing will not progress. It's rather like the controversy about women being able to excel at math.

[rucky]

159. It's a statistical fact: fathers ARE less likely to be involved

I can't believe that's even up for debate, because it is such a problem in america.

I'm a dad & I couldn't imagine not being involved in my daughter's life, but at the same time I know plenty of kids growing up without a father. plenty.

I'm also a teacher at a Title I school in a predominantly Black neighborhood. I would say out of my class of 37 5th graders, about 1/3 of them live with their dads, 1/3 live with single moms, and the rest live with other relatives or foster homes.

It's a shame so many people jumped down your throat, because I was hoping this was something we could discuss.

[ultraist]

161. Clinton's Responsible Fatherhood Initiative

Yes, it is a fact and it has been a major problem for decades. It had put such a burden on the system, that during the Clinton's welfare reform days, they created a program to encourage responsible fatherhood.

Of course, the bottom line goal of this initiative was to increase child support payments. The Child Support Collection Office was expanded, new child support collection laws were established, and as a result, there has been an increase in payments (The threat of jail time has worked).

Other programmatic goals were to encourage involvement in the child's education and health care. Research has shown the more involved a father is, the more likely he is to pay child support.

Clinton's Fatherhood Initiative, has increased child support collections drastically (that info can be found at the US Dept of Health and Human Services website) yet the problem is still widespread.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000204.html

THE WHITE HOUSE UNVEILS NEW RESPONSIBLE FATHERHOOD INITIATIVE TO PROMOTE WORK AND BOOST CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS
Today, the White House will unveil a major new initiative to promote work, child support, and responsible fatherhood. The responsible fatherhood initiative is part of President Clinton's FY 2001 budget. It will include new measures to 1) collect child support from parents who can afford to pay; 2) ensure that more child support goes directly to families, and 3) provide funds to help more "deadbroke" fathers, who owe child support, go to work. These responsible fatherhood proposals are a critical next step in welfare reform, and will build upon the President’s efforts to help low-income families succeed in the workforce. The White House today will also announce new data showing that thanks to the Administration's child support crackdown, collections have nearly doubled since President Clinton took office.

[bloom]

164. I tried to look

for statistics and I mainly found sites devoted to men defending themselves. It seems to be a cottage industry.

www.nomarriage.com/ "Statistics on how worthless western women actually are..."

www.menweb.org "Men Under Siege"

mensnewsdaily.com/ "Driving the Divorce Rate: Who’s Teaching the Women?"

www.academia.org/ "How Misguided Feminism is Harming Our Young Men"

------


I was thinking if I had titled the thread "What is it with some REPUBLICAN men who have children and are irresponsible" - I may have gotten a better discussion. Maybe I'll try next week. As it happens in my life - those are the men that have been problem fathers - the strict father model that also happened to be the strict, alcoholic and/or abusive father model.

I did find this site - http://www.peak.org/~jedwards/COLORADO.HTM - I'm not sure what people around here would think about that - If it seems like it makes sense or if people just think it's BS. It seemed to me like people actually trying to look for solutions - not just blame or something.

It's not like there are not gender differences. It's not like men have hormones affecting their pregnant body. I'm not surprised that men who have short term relationships or no relationship get freaked out when they become fathers. I would think that that would be upsetting. And nowadays where it's so much easier to identify the fathers who may otherwise have gotten out of responsibilities - it seems like there is bound to be a new dynamic to life for these people. (And like someone mentioned - the women have a "choice" - one they may be ridiculed for and harassed about - but it is a choice, nonetheless - and the men don't - so I suppose some are mad about that.)

[ultraist]

166. US Census Bureau Stats on Child Support

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf

"About 5 of every 6 custodial parents were mothers (84.4 percent)"

Received full amount of child support:
Percent. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36.9

23% of custodial parents (84% are mothers) are in poverty
12% is the national poverty rate

Most custodial parents are mothers (84%) and only 1/3 of all custodial parents recieve full child support payments.

Yes, those sites you posted are part of a cottage industry that has gained popularity since penalties for not paying child support increased under Clinton.

[bloom]

168. thanks

It sounds like maybe you work with this.

I suppose it stands to reason that men who were never married to the mother - never had a household with the children would have the most problem with the concept of responsibility. Whereas it is not possible that the mother never had any connection - she had at least 9 months of connection and probably more even if she lost custody.

So I don't see how people can say it's the same.

It would be nice if enough men were upset over women's contributions in child support that something was done - like pay equity - so that women could contribute more when men have custody. Though around here, women are likely to not have custody mostly when they are in jail or mentally ill or in need of some kind of treatment for some other reason.

I would love to see more support systems for families whether single parent families or not. There certainly seem to be a lot of people with horror stories of one kind or another - with "bad" or inadequate parenting. And it would just be nice for families - mothers and fathers - to be more supported.

It's hard to work up sympathy for the men on the sites that are upset that women are divorcing. Like maybe there is a good reason for that. Maybe women don't want to stay in abusive relationships and they feel like they have choice.

The strength of the backlash does make me wonder - though - women might need some sites of their own. I thought I found one and it turned out to be a right-wing site that was saying the same things the men's sites were saying.

[otohara]

129. Including Me...Many Father's of WWII Generation

I had one friend who grew up with two parents, then that marriage ended eventually.

As for the countless others - we all lived with our mom's - mine on welfare, the others worked - not one red cent from our father's.

Once my father sent me money for Xmas...

I'm glad there are laws in today that force men to help pay for their children.

[UdoKier]

136. I don't know...

What is it with people who seem to think only MEN fail to take responsibility for their kids?

I've seen both men and women exhibiting absolutely HORRIBLE parenting techniques in public. And when kids are neglected, it could be by either or both parents.



As a man with two kids who does the lion's share of the housework and the "kid logistics", (so that my wife can devote time to her dream of being an artist) as well as paying all the bills on a meager salary, I rather resent this topic.

[seabeyond]

139. i would too, if i were you

like anyone can judge a whole gender as one,:shrug:

[bloom]

152. I think it just goes to show ya'

If a person writes "some mothers" or "some dads" that people who are mothers or dads hear it as an attack on themselves.

And that was my point as much as anything.

And just like on the other thread people could claim " Oh, but we weren't talking about the mothers who....blah blah blah..." still - that is not what people hear.

------

As far as "gender wars" go...

It's been my experience to have mothers be the scapegoat of the family (i.e according to my dad - eventual problems were always because of my mother - never him, :eyes: his mother was blamed for all of his problems, etc.) - so I do have defenses up.

I'm willing to admit that sometimes it is the mother who did the abandoning, the drugs, the whatever, and that that is equally painful to people - regardless of gender.

[LIBERALSANDIEGO]

143. They're losers--much like this post.

[Sparkly]

149. Don't be so hard on yourself.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

157. Somebody had a task force...

In Colorado, recent changes in the paternity establishment law have made it easier to establish legal paternity. One example is a program established in 1990 designed to work with hospitals to permit maternity nurses to help government officials identify fathers of children born to single mothers. The program enables nurses, at the time of birth, to take steps with a new father in the hospital to officially establish paternity. Since 1990 (to 1996), the program has improved the identification rate of fathers of children born to single mothers from 13 percent to 63 percent.

That is a HUGE increase that took place whereas - many more fathers became identified and therefore "responsible"....

The article goes on to make some interesting points....

Again, it is hard to know which comes first, the father who chooses not to be involved in his child's life, or the society that tells him his skills as a parent aren't valued as much as his paycheck. It is clear, however, that fathers who grew up without fathers active in their own lives are less likely to be active fathers in their children's lives. If the community around the man does not make fathering a priority, he is not likely to do so either.

In this case, the solution may not hinge so much upon identifying these fathers, as it does upon changing cultural assumptions about father's roles with children. In the workplace, in the home and in public fathers should get a consistent message that they are a valued part of their children's lives.

Reading this makes me think that while yes, some women don't take/ can't take responsibility, there ARE differences whether real or societal in genders (mothering/fathering) and it doesn't really help to pretend that there isn't a problem when there is. I think there is a lot of denial going on. Of course, I'll be the first to admit that with a better thread title, people might approach the subject differently...


snips are from:
http://www.peak.org/~jedwards/COLORADO.HTM