Party leadership? I think the grass roots is half the problem

[Spacejet]

Unfortunately the Gannon scandal is on it's way to the memory hole because half of our people play checkers while those of us who can see the big picture play chess.

The fact that 90% of discussion is either 1. focused on sexuality or 2. focused on prostitution shows gross misjudgment on the grassroots level, and frankly I'm getting sick of it.

People like to blame party leadership when bushco gets away with any number of things. But the fact of the matter is at the grass roots level most of our people fu** things up worse than any dino ever could.

I go around our web sites full of pictures of bush, et al captioned with moronic amusing quotes even during the time leading up to the election. It makes me wonder WTF the grass roots is smoking. Instead of taking time screwing with photoshop for giggles they could actually be doing something constructive for the party.

Let's go over some major screw ups.

1. 9/11 happened on bush's watch - what do half of our people do? Flood the internet with "bush planted bombs in the WTC" "bush MIHOP" "747 fired missle at WTC" etc instead of keeping their eyes on the fu**ing ball which SHOULD have been "9/11 happened on bush's watch. he failed us on national security" Period.

2. Congress recently works to pass legislation making homeland security above the law. (literally) Half of our people take the rove bait put out at the exact same time of "national IDs" and keep the focus on that instead of the real agenda. 24 hours later Fatherland security passes while national IDs disappear. Funny how that works.

3. Just a little while ago it became known bushco was hiring journalists on tax payer dime to produce propaganda. It went down the memory hole. I've yet to see anyone produce content to revive the connection, but I've seen people take the time to put out more bush next to a chimp pictures. Bloody fantastic work.

4. Now Gannon. Let me explain for those who still don't get what Gannon SHOULD be about

Rove decided that even with a corporate whore press throwing softball questions bush was still too incompetent to hold his own. Solution? Pay off a fake reporter to sit around asking the moron questions along the lines of "Is it because democrats are so delusional that they can't see how great your social security plan is?"

THAT'S the big story. NOT prostitution. NOT Gannon being gay. Some of our people seem to think they're doing everyone a favor showing the gay "hypocrisy" of the republicans. To which I can only say give me a freaking break. What the issue is REALLY about is an impeachable offense. Here's how you weigh it.

A. Gannon being hired by Rove to deliberately deceive the american people = Impeachable offense.

B. Gannon being gay - hypocrisy of the republicans. = Feel good effect. That's about it.

Unfortunately this has been another scandal shot to hell because so many people can't focus on the real issue. I can only hope Dean finds some way to give some people a clue because this is truly getting ridiculous.

[imenja]

1. I agree with you

Moreover, much of the people to whom you refer are not really the Democratic grassroots. If you spend as much or more time attacking Democrats as Republicans, you obviously aren't a Democratic party loyalist. The Republicans win because they have better discipline and organization. We should learn from them.

I've been making that same point about Gannon for a week now, and no one cares. People like torrid scandal and in the process overlook far more serious concerns. It's one thing to point out Republican hypocrisy. It's another to become a hypocrite yourself. The sex story is over. It's provided a entry to discuss larger issues, but if we neglect those larger concerns for lascivious gossip, the Republicans come out the winners.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Whatever! n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

4. Heeheee

I'm getting sick and tired of people getting sick and tired. :D

[John Q. Citizen]

28. Hohohohooooo

I know what you mean :)

[Spacejet]

3. One more thing

Let this serve as an example as part of the grass roots actually doing something constructive.

Gannon came about almost entirely because of grass roots work. Too bad half of everyone else can't see what needs to be done with it. And guess what? That work didn't involve screwing with photoshop for sh*ts and giggles or sitting around threatening to go green while deflecting responsibility because the "leadership" "isn't working right".

Remember that.

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. You're gonna get flamed for this

But FWIW you make very valid points. We are the party of the cirular firing squad - although a part of me wonders how many of these people who spend most of their DU time bitching at *Democrats* are actually true yellow dog Dems. I realize other progressives are welcome here, but seriously, some of this "if the party doesn't lockstep follow my specific and narrowly-defined ideology I'm going Green" crap is over the top.

[eShirl]

6. is there proof he was hired by Rove?

I must have missed it.

[Spacejet]

7. Oh no that's right

Must not have been. I forgot anyone off the street can just walk in, sit down, and ask the president some nice easy questions.

[eShirl]

9. maybe they can

as long as they're a known partisan hack. That doesn't make him Rove's employee.

[Spacejet]

10. Given the fact it has now been conclusively proven

that they have paid off other "journalists" it is not a big leap to consider Gannon another one of them.

[eShirl]

11. but a leap nonetheless. n/t

[Spacejet]

12. That's why part of our message

should be demanding a full and complete investigation.

[bowens43]

20. Without evidence, it's a leap.

[bowens43]

18. Where's you evidence?

[Spacejet]

22. we need an investigation

We already HAVE evidence of other paid off reporters. I doubt it stopped with them.

[bowens43]

25. There IS an investigation being called for in congress

BECAUSE this was brought to light by grass roots bloggers. You seem to think that laws have been broken. What laws? Be specific. You also don't seem to understand that any procedures against bush would have to be initiated by congress. It's not going to happen, especially over something as petty as this.

[Spacejet]

27. Are you kidding?

Maybe you should read the constitution

"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

If there is money involved here it would be ENTIRELY constitutional to impeach their asses.

Also - you're right this came about by SOME of the grass roots. That's an example of the grass roots actually working as it should. Unfortunately we have others at the grass roots level screwing things up by bringing attention to less-relavent (read: not impeachable) BS.

Right now the grass roots should be focused on the possibility of Rove hiring Gannon and any complicity by any one else in bushco. With out this focus where is it going to come from? Certainly FOX news isn't going to be working for an investigation.

[imenja]

29. yes, and the constitution also requires a super majority for impeachment

obviously a vote would never be waged under a Republican congress. Democrats can't even begin an investigation. Only committee chairs can convene investigations.

[readmoreoften]

35. Wow

that is seriously awful. So * can just commit high crimes and misdemeanors and there's nothing we can do?

[imenja]

37. yes

and he has. He lied to bring us into war and he has permitted torture. If those aren't high crimes I don't know what is.

Nixon went down because the Republicans turned on him. Bush is safe unless his own party turns.

[sandnsea]

8. More fake news

I absolutely agree that the right questions aren't being asked. There's a variety of ways this story could be moved towards fake news in the White House. I still want to know what Bruce Eberle's connection is and why he's also on the Board of Time of Grace Ministries when it's operating out of Wisconsin. Where did all this money come from?

Still, if by some outside chance Gannon is connected because of a gay relationship and national secrets were disclosed, that's quite a story too. Although I agree with you that they win because they stay focused and are able to go from titilation to illegalities much more rapidly and easily than we do.

Of course, they had a guy named Jeff Gannon orchestrating it all online too.

[Kerrytravelers]

13. This took a ton of guts to write.

There will be some, I'm sure, who will flame you.

However, I agree. At a DFA meeting last December, a youth leader stood up, introduced himself and said he worked hard for Dean, but didn't do any work for Kerry. That made me crazy. Apparently, this guy really wanted * to win. Wouldn't you do anything to get * out? I made a vow that I would work hard for whoever was the nominee. Had it been Dean, my screen name would have been Dean Travelers, because I would have traveled to swing states to work for Dean, as I did Kerry.

I think healthy converstation is essential, but there are times when we must just work for the goal. Not step in line like the bushbots. They are backing a war criminal who sanctions torture and who bombs innocent civilians and children. In this case, it was Kerry. Period. He was the Dem nominee and that was it. Honestly, even if you're not a Democrat, anyone who hates * should have really looked at the reality of the situation. Either * or Kerry would be in the White House. Not a Green, not an Independent or any other party. Ralph Nader had no chance. Should we have more than a two party system? I beleive so, but this was not the election to have that discussion. Do you have to love Kerry? Well, it would be nice, but when your choice is heaven or hell, shouldn't you make a choice instead of shrugging your shoulders and walking away? There are so many people I have met while out protesting this war who told me they didn't vote. They hate * and want him gone, but they didn't vote because they don't believe in the system. While normally I applaude one standing for their noble beliefs, this year, red staters who didn't "believe in the system" spent time maiking Bush?Chimp pictures and not voting gave us 4 more years of *.

Personally, I steer clear of sarcasm. I never put smartalec bumperstickers on my car, etc. I have another thread where I talk about leaving either articles or the Iraqi body count in places like public restrooms, doctor's offices, etc. I never leave sarcasm or hateful literature, only the fcts and, considering the target audience is pretty wide and those who are uninformed, non-partisan in their eyes (meaning, it's MSM, etc.) Sarcasm makes us feel good, but it does nothing to reach those who still don't get it.

Specejet, thanks for such a great thread. I hope it leads to an intelligent discussion.

[Spacejet]

15. You're welcome

I hope there can be dialogue about this.

[readmoreoften]

36. thanks for both your posts

That is an excellent point

"Sarcasm makes us feel good, but it does nothing to reach those who still don't get it."

[Kerrytravelers]

38. Thank you.

This was a hard lesson for me to learn. I am a very sarcastic person myself. However, I"d show my mom (who plays on our team all the way) some of the sarcastic pictures, sayings, etc and she'd say "is this suppose to sawy my feelings one way or another?" or "what do they mean by that? Do they like *?" She didn't get much of the sarcasm. It made me think that if someone who desperately hates * doesn't see the humor or isn't getting the message through the sarcasm, then those who are uninformed or who sit on the fence are likely not getting the message or just write it off as sour grapes and mindless * bashing.

[MGKrebs]

14. Um. No.

1. So you want ALL of "our people" to ALL do the same thing all of the time? It'll never happen, it would be wrong anyway, and the other side has their fringe elements too and it doesn't seem to stop them.
2. Same thing. I think you are mixing your "groups". There IS a fringe element, and they (we?) are necessary to the overall critical mass. It's the MSM that we haven't been able to move off of their inertia-laden asses to follow up on some of these stories.
3. Let's see. The complaint is that Bushco is controlling the media, and we- the grassroots- aren't? Well, duh. If Dan Rather can get retired and four others fired for failing to fully vet a non-essential document to a support a story that is anti-Bush, it don' take a rocket scientist to see what we are up against.
4. I agree. But I think you should be directing your criticism at the MSM. All we can do is till the field. They have to ask the questions and write the stories. After all, when you say "down the memory hole", that's what you mean, right? it doesn't matter if the story is alive and well in the blogosphere. it needs to be in the MSM to make a real difference.

The battle we - the grassroots- fight is against apathy. We NEED people to care. We NEED them to participate. Our opponents want people to just sit back and relax and not pay too close attention, everything will be alright. Trust us. Condi flat out lied to Congress when she said there were no warnings. For anyone who points that out to be called a conspiracy theorist or a fringe element is not coming from US, it's coming from THEM. We NEED the media to tell these people that they should be IN THE STREETS. Democracy will not work with a compliant media or a ambivalent populace.

[Kerrytravelers]

16. You're correct in stating we need people to care.

But sarcasm isn't the way to make that work. I'ts a feel good for us, but the uninformed see only that we think Bush looks like a Chimp and not all the actual facts that we have on our side. They can't get past the sarcasm to see our true points.

[MGKrebs]

19. We have to be able to do it all.

I agree that we need to try to focus the message of the grassroots. Lakoff and all that. But there will always be a fringe element, there is no way to stop it, and we shouldn't want to stop it anyway. We can't only do one or two things. We have to have the fringe working, the leadership, the MSM, the activists, all of us. To blame the failure of the MSM to report stories on the grassroots is misguided. The party at fault for the MSM not reporting stories is... the MSM. The fact that they seem to not be able to distinguish between real stories and conspiracy theories is a result of pressure coming from the other side.

You've all seen the wacked out right wing sites. They exist too! The right's grassroots are just as weird as ours - probably weirder! The media doesn't devalue "our" stories because some of us are weird.

[Kerrytravelers]

26. No, I certainly don't want to stop our fringe element, they keep us to

the left. But is do wish they would cut some of the overarching sarcasm in an effort to reach those who are just plain uninformed. It was so needed this election. It made me laugh and feel better, too. But it does have a way of turning people off. The idea of "Bush Bashing" gained acceptance because all they saw was the hatred, but they never understood the reason for it.

Edited to add:

Clearly, I love sarcasm. Look at my sig line. I would never design a site around sarcasm or put it onmy car. That's all.

[bowens43]

17. Nope. It's the leadership.

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of 'leader'. Do you understand that it's only our 'leaders' who have the power to do anything (and haven't).

BTW , please present your evidence that Rove hired Gannon. We'd LOVE to see it.....

Even if true it certainly doesn't implicate Bush and even if it did, how would that be an impeachable offense? As far as we know laws have been broken.

My guess is that you're one of those 'move the party to the center' types.

You need some Valium or a big fat doober.

[Spacejet]

21. Please don't tell me

you are naive enough to believe Rove wasn't behind it. He approves EVERYONE in that room. He didn't get where he is today by being sloppy.

Read the constitution friend

"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

If paying off journalists isn't bribery I don't know what is. We've already got at least 3 known paid off journalists, you're telling me Gannon isn't another one?

[Kerrytravelers]

24. Another step that all grassroots can take is constantly emailng,

calling and writing the elected officials. It sould so basic and silly, but everyday, my husband and I are doing this. We email what we've done to all our Dem friends, who in turn do the same thing (in their own words, of course.) They pass it on to their connections, and it webs out from there. By last count, there is a web of a few hundred people. It's consistant, and hopefully, if everyone starts doing this and doesn't stop, the grassroots will be able to let the leaders know exactly hwat we want. Boxer is on our side, she's working for the Democrats. (And she's my Senator, yea! :bounce: )

We also contact the MSM all the time, as often as humanly possible, demanding equal time or that they DO THEIR JOBS!

But,we never, ever use sarcasm. I'ts too the point and chocked full of facts.

[imenja]

30. what a cop out

blame everything on the party leadership and absolve yourself of any responsibility for effecting change. The Republicans changed their party from the bottom up. Are you saying we are less capable?

[Old and In the Way]

23. Good points, but don't sell the Gannon = Gay Hooker issue short.

We all know that the real point of his being in the WH Press room was to lob softballs and be a conduit to get info out that the WH wanted covered. That's a given.

But this "gay porn hooker who works for the Republicans/WH" angle is extremely important, too.

The Christian RW has delivered to the Republicans a large group of faith based voters. They've been sold on the Republican cynical hype that they are somehow morally superior to Democrats. These people are willing to disregard their lying eyes and their best interests to reaffirm their belief that the Republicans are closer to God because they hate gays. Trouble is, as we all know, that's not remotely true. Gays are as big a part of their Party leadership as they are in our Party. Fact is, they may be even more represented.

Knocking down this hypocrisy is a legitimate strategy and I, for one, want to see more "Gannon - Gay Hooker - Tax Cheater - Republican cheerleader" associations permeating the airwaves and newspapers. Hopefully, there will be more of the same to come over the coming months.

Is it a crime to be gay? No. Certainly the prostitution angle is against the law. But the more we can wake up the religiously sincere/politically naive to the cynical reality of who Republicans are and what their true agenda is, the better it is for the majority. Take away their undeserved moral highground, and what's left? The 2% who benefit from the true Republican agenda and the Bushbots who post at FR. Driving a wedge into the Republicans #1 voting block is a good thing, IMHO.

[ultraist]

31. LMAO!!! That's so true!

Is Rove Gay? Is Bush Gay? Is Scott Gay? Is Cooper Gay? Is Ann a transvestite? Is Rush Gay? :eyes:

Eberle is likely the one who set up the propaganda plant. This obsession to break some secret Gay ring in the WH is fantasy land.

[QC]

32. We agree on this one!

:toast:

I am so fucking tired of this gay this and gay that and gay gay gay obsession. OK, he's gay, we get it, there's no need to belabor the point 500 times a day.

Of course the fact that Gannon is part of a much larger propaganda operation by this most dishonest White House gets lost while we titter over rimjobs and buttfucking and wonder whether he poked Bush's hiney or not. It's silly and more than a little homophobic.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[onecitizen]

34. Gee whiz.......

glad you came around and showed us the error of our lazy, rediculous, uninformed ways. Impeachment. Now there's a novel idea.