Do Christian Fundies not drink wine at Communion?

[CTLawGuy]

I am a Lutheran and we do drink wine. Kids as young as 12 do.

I remember in high school a fundy friend of mine told us that in his church they drink grape juice.

I wonder if people know whether drinking grape juice is common or not in fundy churches.

If so, it's hilarious because Jesus commanded his followers to drink a ceremonial bit of wine to remember Him.

I wonder whether fundies are more driven by their own puritanical sense of morality or Biblical principles.

[dsc]

1. Nearly all drink grape juice

It may actually be all but I know it is nearly all at least. Mormons use water.

[Ladyhawk]

65. Yep. I never saw a fundy denomination that served real wine at communion.

My fundy denomination(s) explained that in Jesus's time, water was impure, so they had to drink wine. Nowadays it's sinful. :eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

83. doesn't wine have water in it?

at lease some?

[Ladyhawk]

99. I think the reasoning is...

...that the wine-making process filtered out the impurities. I have no idea whether or not this is true. Alcohol does have a sterilizing effect.

[Sporadicus]

2. Many Drink Grape Juice Instead of Wine

That ol' debbil alkyhol, ya know! :eyes:

[CottonBear]

3. Presbyterians drink grape juice

and always have. I grew up Presbyterian. My paternal grandmother was a member of the WCTU. It's a Calvinist thing. My dad, on the other hand, enjoyed good scotch! We hid all the liquor when Nana came to visit. Also, Dad never smoked around her.

[Warpy]

24. HAHA! My granny once headed the New York chapter of the WCTU

She lived on Lydia Pinkham's Vegetable Tonic, which as I recall was nearly 80 proof.

I think most churches went to grape juice for two reasons: first, wine is expensive and second, they have children taking communion and wine might be unwise, given the laws about alcohol and minors.

Prohibition may have contributed, too, by making sacramental wine too damned hard to come by.

[Igel]

86. Prohibition specifically excluded wine for communion.

In fact, the amount of communion wine seriously increased.

Or do you mean that it became scarce not because it wasn't produced, but was too much consumed?

[Orsino]

80. Yep.

I grew up drinking grape juice in a Presbyterian church. I was never bothered by its not being wine--since we couldn't have the same wine Jesus served up, why did it have to be wine at all?

We used cut-up sandwich bread rather than anything authentically period, too.

[ohio_liberal]

95. We have grape juice in our PCUSA church

and some kind of heavy, dry, sweet bread. It tastes really nasty.

[B3Nut]

89. Most Calvinists I know drink....

moderately but regularly, and Calvin sure as heck did. Then there was Luther...man drank like a fish! I have no problem moderately enjoying God's gift of alcohol. :)

Todd in Beerbratistan

[eShirl]

4. they drink "new wine" = unfermented grape juice

at least at the Assembly of God church I knew about

[Dr.Phool]

5. In my fundy church

as a kid, we got grape juice. Some other denominations I know of do likewise. They twist it around, about it really being grape juice in the bible.

Question is, where did all those drunks come from? Noah, Lot, etc.

[baldguy]

71. You mean they didn't take the Bible LITERALLY?

[lectrobyte]

6. Grape juice. It was explained to me in my misspent holy roller

youth that the translation to wine really meant grape juice in modern terms.

[CTLawGuy]

11. hahahahahahaha

somehow I think the holy roller's explanation is lacking.

[lectrobyte]

20. Hey, that's what the told us at the time. Gullibility is a given. And

a few years later, we found out that grape juice was so much better with some Everclear mixed in. To aid with clarity.

[Blue_In_AK]

7. Methodists drink grape juice. n/t

[ultraist]

40. Episcopalians and Catholics drink wine

I think the switch to grapejuice for fundies was largely economical. Pre tele-evangelism, fundie churches were poor and the congregation was primarily lower income people.

There are some wealthy fundie churches today, like the Crystal palace in FL. It's very commercialized now.

[Blue_In_AK]

63. You may be right about that, although...

...I think a lot of mainstream Christian churches (and I personally don't consider most Methodists as "fundies") still hold on to some of the "temperance" ideas and that alcohol is bad, or at least shouldn't be drunk in church.

[cheezus]

91. no, catholics drink the blood of christ

transubstantion, or something like that :)

[Coastie for Truth]

8. A Methodist (Salvation Army) Minister - and very dear friend -

told me that using wine for communion is fairly common in many Protestant denominations.

I grew up in a neighborhood where everybody was Jewish or Roman Catholic -- so that was news to me, too. You live and learn and grow (at least in years, hopefully in wisdom and knowledge).

[faithfulcitizen]

37. none that I've been to, it's always grape juice nt

[mzmolly]

9. Grape Juice because some people are "on the wagon"

:shrug:

Some churches offer a choice. ;)

[dsc]

15. Good point

The MCC church I went to in Chicago gave a choice. I can't take Communion at places which don't at least give an option of juice.

[Clark2008]

34. Question. Would the tiny dollup they give you at communion

really make you thirst for liquor?
I'm not trying to be judgmental - and my grandfather died of liver disease as a result of alcoholism, even though he quit drinking several years earlier.
I have often wondered this. I can stop drinking when I want. Drink when I want. Quit when I have to (therefore, I do not have my grandfather's genetic predispostion, I gather).
When I was pregnant, not a drop of liquor touched my lips - except at Communion, but it was so small, no one, not even my doctor worried about it.
Please explain this to me since alcoholism does run in my family, even though, apparently, I have avoided it. I want to know in case my son is a recipient.

[dsc]

68. You will get many different answers to this

but I honestly believe it isn't worth the risk. One incident stands out for me. I knew a recovering alcoholic in college (this was before I knew I was an alcoholic) and we were grocery shopping. We were a test market for the latest product a non alcoholic beer. He took one sip and literally turned white. I asked him what was the matter and he said it was too close and brought back a ton of memories. This was a guy who could go to frat parties and not slip. But this one sip scared the Hell out of him.

Am I sure, that the tiny amount they give in Communion would be a problem, no. Do I want to try and find out, no. I won't even cook with alcohol.

[MHalblaub]

74. Alcoholism is a mental problem that also cause corporal damage.

A friend of mine was an alcoholic and explained it to me in that way:

"Your corporal problems may gone but you still have the problems that let you start drinking. I still have a beer after sports or a glass of wine to diner but I'm not an alcoholic any longer. I solved my mental problems."

We get real wine to our confirmation.

Grape juice makes no sense in a country like Israel without fridge. Even my grandparents were used to give the children wine with water. It's a kind of bacterial cleaning.

[superconnected]

10. They likely drink grape juice but so do most other christian churches

Everyone I've ever attended has only served grape juice.

I've attended many different christian denoms. By far most of those churches were liberal.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. I think churches are liberal too

but they just don't know it. :) I know on a lot of issues I agree with people in my church on and I'm pretty hard left. I go to a Church of Christ if you're wondering.

[bunkerbuster1]

72. My devoutly pacifist, anti-Vietnam-war church

served grape juice at communion.

Just sayin'.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. They do indeed drink grape juice

They fudge it by saying that the word used in the original Greek New Testament actually means grape juice. This is unlikely for three reasons:

1) People who should know (classics majors) have told me that the Greek word used means "wine," period, and anyone who says it means "grape juice" doesn't know what they're talking about.

2) As my Lutheran pastor father said, the Last Supper was a Passover seder. Passover is and always has been in the spring. Grapes are harvested in the fall. There was no refrigeration in the first century, so any grape juice pressed in the fall would have fermented by the time Passover rolled around.

3) The idea of Christians as teetotalers is a nineteenth-century notion, prompted by widespread alcoholism in the U.S. abetted by the availability of cheap, unregulated booze. In any case, the Catholics, Orthodox, and Episcopalians never went for the temperance movement, although some Scandinavian (not German :-) ) Lutherans did.

ON EDIT: In response to the posts above, the Episcopalians and most Lutherans use real wine. Unlike some denominations, people kneel or stand at the altar rail instead of being served in the pews.

The Lutherans usually serve Communion in individual thimble cups that the altar servers carry down the line at the Communion rail in a round cup holder that has a slot for each cup. The cups are arranged in concentric circles. It is common knowledge that the innermost ring of cups contains grape juice instead of wine.

The Episcopalians use a common cup of wine. You have the choice of drinking out of it or dipping your wafer. If you don't want the wine, you cross your hands over your chest and receive a blessing instead.

[Clark2008]

35. As a grape grower, I can attest that this

statement is true:
2) As my Lutheran pastor father said, the Last Supper was a Passover seder. Passover is and always has been in the spring. Grapes are harvested in the fall. There was no refrigeration in the first century, so any grape juice pressed in the fall would have fermented by the time Passover rolled around.

I can mine into jelly. This year, I had no grapes because it rained too much and the grapes were bitter. I let the birds have 'em. First year in six years that I've had to buy jelly, jam or grape juice (I don't make wine - I should, but I don't have the facilities for it).

[ultraist]

45. That's an interesting interpretation.

The Roman Catholics created that ritual, the Sacrament of the Eucharist, to symbollize the body and blood of Christ. The seperate wafers of bread and the wine "also represent the mystical separation of Christ's Body and Blood or the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Lamb."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05584a.htm

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I agree with you

I definietly think it was actual grape wine and not grape juice. And that's how my church does it (the denominiation). We have the circle ring with the little holders and all that.

[girl gone mad]

64. My Lutheran church served wine..

and offered a choice between the individual thimble cup and the communal cup, so that people who were sick or concerned about germs could still take communion.

[Az]

13. Belief systems are always about what its adherants believe

rather than what the doctrine actually says. Sometimes they match up. Usually they are what the group wants to believe derived from the doctrine.

[DawgHouse]

14. Wine was different then...

That's what I was told when I was younger. I had the audacity to ask why we drank grape juice instead of wine when they drank wine in the bible. And I was told that the wine today is different than the wine they drank in the "bible days". I should have followed up with, "then why is it that when Jesus turned water into wine, the wedding guests got drunk?" But I was just a girl and accepted what I was told.

[dsc]

16. actually they were drunk before he turned the water into wine

which always struck me as bizarre. The guest says something like you saved the best wine till after we were drunk unlike most hosts. I always found it odd that Jesus would give wine to a bunch of drunks.

[CTLawGuy]

17. its easy

no one had to drive home that night :)

[dsc]

19. true

[Canuckistanian]

23. Please - Don't Drink and Ride Donkey

[FreedomAngel82]

52. I didn't get that either

And why that was his first miracle. :shrug: I guess it was a simple thing and it was a big deal back then. The people who had parties were expected to have the best and if not then it would cost their reputation from my understanding. After that the couple who were getting married they had a lot of good reputation and all that and they partied even more. Wasn't Jesus quite young or was he an adult by then? I can't remember. I remember his mother drug him to the party. I wonder if he wanted to go. ;)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. They told you a fib

A few years ago, the Scientific American had an article about the history of alcohol consumption. According to them, for thousands of years, people in Europe and the Mediterranean commonly drank diluted wine or beer as their main beverage, because they learned from experience that drinking straight water could lead to illness.

Even the Puritans brewed ale.

The authors surmised that for centuries, most people were slightly sloshed most of the time.

[Clark2008]

36. Maybe that's why literature was better in the wayback!

:)

[JVS]

18. I've seen ELCA churches offer two cups for intinction, one was grape juice

Also as a kid there were always a few communion glasses at the tray with grape juice, mom said it was for recovering alcoholics

[Ilsa]

22. My Presbyterian church offered communion wine and white grape

juice so people could take whatever was comfortable for them and their kids.

[LittleClarkie]

25. They used grape juice at my friends Baptist Church

and at one fundamentalist church my sister went to. I don't know if it's universal or not, but it might be a common practice.

My church offers the option of wine or grape. The communion kids who dislike the taste of the wine appreciate it, as do those who can't drink alcohol for medical reasons, and the occasional recovering alcoholic who doesn't want to tempt fate.

[bmbmd]

26. If Almighty God can transform the elements

into the body and blood of Christ, surely He can transform Welch's into wine.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

29. I saw an independant baptist pastor on tv once

giving that same arguement. "It was GRAPE JUICE; Jesus turned wine into GRAPE JUICE". What they were debating was whether or not to have the county serve alcohol (dry county).

[FreedomAngel82]

54. Obviously he didn't read the whole story!

LOL. And this guy is supposed to be a pastor? :eyes:

[hootinholler]

48. Sure just leave it out for a while. N/T

[Solar]

27. I've been to many different denominations

Some serve just grape juice, others serve wine and grape juice. I go mainly to a Lutheran church and wine is used, with the option or grape juice if someone has a medical condition. While I don't know this for sure, I think the main stipulation for Communion liquid is that it be from "fruit of the vine." When you think about it, wine is really just grape juice with alcohol. The whole idea behind a sacrament (as far as the Lutherans believe) is that it is a physical object combined with a spiritual element. So in that respect, it doesn't matter what it *is*, but what one *believes* about it.

I'll ask around and see if I can get a more exact answer.

[theboss]

28. Church of Christ...we drink grape juice at the Lord's Supper

And thank you for mocking my church.

[CTLawGuy]

39. no insult intended to your church

only pointing out the hypocrisy of fundies who claim to be devoted to the morals and teachings of christ more than anyone else.

[ultraist]

41. It's a symbollic gesture to represent the BLOOD of Christ

Does it really matter if they use water, wine, or grape juice to symbollize the sacrament?

The sybollic ritual of the wine and wafer represents the body and blood of Christ, it is the sacrament of the Eucharist.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. You go to the same church as me

Nice to see you here. :hi: (to theboss)

[theboss]

75. Ah, but are you instrumental or non-instrumental?

It's not that easy!

[Shakespeare]

87. That's my church, too, and it's not mocking.

It's pointing out one of the MANY areas where they put victorian prudishness ahead of actual scripture. TCofC sets itself out as a "non-denominational" church committed to following scripture to the letter, and it's only one of many, many reasons I no longer attend there. Their claims are bogus, and I got sick to death of the hypocrisy.

[TalkingDog]

30. Holy Rollers, Fundy Southern Baptist think that wine/wafer stuff

is next to voodou.

Sorry, the Catholics and their ilk are all heathen, idol worshipers and anything that smacks of that cult is banished from small southern churches.

I was struck by the last Baptist Church I was in...several years ago (and it was probably 20 prior to that) at how bare and spare it was.

The stained glass was plain, the walls were white, the pews un-cushioned. After studying European Cathedrals and going to a few, it was interesting to notice the difference. I didn't notice when I was young as I had no point of comparison.

I am constantly amazed at the wide variety of sects within the Christian purview.

[ultraist]

43. Some of the most spectacular cathedrals are in Paris!

And of course, Notre Dam. AHHHH!!! I was in awe...I happen to have an affinity for religious architecture and art. Not because I am religious but because of the grandeur and beauty of it.

I almost purchased an antique church alter but didn't know where in my house I could put it! LOL! It was gorgeous carved wood, very elaborate. This same antique shop was selling huge pieces of wood paneling from a Jewish temple. AHH! I also love the stained glass windows, I am installing a religious stained glass window in the house we are renovating and will move into.


Chartres Cathedral

[FreedomAngel82]

57. Some of the churches

are very beautiful over there. I've seen some photos. :)

[leesa]

31. Mostly they are just incredibly dull, boring people who resent everyone

else's work and pleasure.

[Jack Rabbit]

32. No. They drink Kool Aid at Bush rallies.

!!

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[sakabatou]

38. I drink grape juice instead of wine

unless its menneshevitz white wine concord. Yum.

[dansolo]

42. Wasn't there a story about non-wheat communion wafers a while back?

I seem to recall a story about a girl who couldn't eat the communion wafers because of food allergies. Isn't it strange that they substitute wine with grape juice, but they wouldn't substitute non-wheat communion wafers for a child who was allergic?

[JVS]

84. I remember that story too, it was at a Catholic church

so I doubt they made substitutions of any kind

[hootinholler]

44. In my experience...

Presby, UCC and Methodists all use grape juice.

Some background from the birthplace of Welch's:

On a warm September day nearly 130 years ago, a Vineland dentist -- a strict prohibitionist and religious man -- set out to make a nonalcoholic wine to be served at communion service in his church.

According to Jeff Smith (Frugal Gourmet and minister) Wine and Bread are gifts from God. Yeast is everywhere and grapes will naturally ferment. In one of his cookbooks he said one should always be able to quote the vintage of the sacrament.

-Hoot

[ultraist]

49. LOL! That is a long way from the original meaning

of the sacrament of the eucharist created by the Roman Catholic Church.

Cute, the vintage of the sacrament should be noted.

[hootinholler]

58. I think I've quoted it out of context...

In context, he implies that this is why Jesus chose wine and bread as the body and blood, therefore wine should be used over grape juice. But, what do you expect from a cookbook, eh?

-Hoot

[JVS]

85. Didn't Frugal Gourmet Jeff Smith pay large settlements to families...

who were threatening to sue him for molesting their kids?

[hootinholler]

88. I remember some scandal...

But not the exact nature, I'll take your word on that. What does that have to do with this?

I have some of his cookbooks I got pre-scandal.

-Hoot

[WillowTree]

46. Some drink grape juice.

Some drink wine.

Who cares?

[Bridget Burke]

73. Plenty of people care around here....

It's an interesting look at different religious practices.

You might even say "It's an Ecumenical thing."

[FreedomAngel82]

47. At my church it's regular grape juice

Because of underage's and stuff.

[PennyK]

53. And on the JEWISH side...

...there has been wine available to all who want it at every temple I've ever been to. It's served right after the Shabbat service, and there is grape juice too, for the kids. And how about a lovely piece of sponge cake?

[Sgent]

60. Purin is a major holiday

Well... its actually minor in a religious sense, but very popular.

The Talmud specifically commands us to drink until we can't tell the difference between two people.

Everyone 13 and older brings their favorite alcohol and gets snokered.

Note: Jews don't dring regular wine or grapefruit in religious services, and shomer shabbat orthodox won't period. Fruit of the Vine is the ONLY food that to be Kosher must never be touched by a non-jew. Most Kosher wine is either made locally, or is not particularly good. It has to do with the fact that a lot of other religions also use wine, and it has to be prepared by Jews to be used in a Jewish religious cermony.

The best answer to the christians is that the OT commands Jews to drink wine -- it is a Mitzvoh in certain circumstances. Thus Jesus would have drank wine.

Orthodox Jews have made wine the same way for thousands of years. Although modern vintages taste different, they have about the same alcohol. Prohibition maybe worthwhile for other reasons, but not for religious ones.

Finally, in two cases I'm aware of where local athorities got p*ssed about underage drinking, the cases got promptly tossed since the state can't regulate the use of alcohol in religious ceremonies (separation of churhc/state).

[maveric]

56. No. Corn liquor.

[Sugarbleus]

62. ROFL!!!!

Any "critters" crawling around in the pews too? lol lol

[sonicx]

59. Kool-Aid

[jayctravis]

61. Went to my church a couple of times with my Grandma.

They passed communion around in nifty metal holders where you could select a tiny glass and drink it. Didn't have to get up, which was nice for the older crowd who attended. The bread was like little slivers of Trident gum. I'd never been there before but Grandma whispered "Go ahead and drink it!" Grape juice. Nothing wrong with that. It was a pleasant ceremony of fellowship.

Lutheran was nice. I went to their grade school and didn't attend the church. Later in life I got confirmed (went to an informal class with the pastor a couple times a week) and was baptized at 12 along with another beautiful tiny baby. They used real wine, and you did have to advance and kneel at a rail in front. Not everyone took communion. They would offer you a wafer which you could take in your hand if you wished. There was a large communal chalice which you sipped from no handed or alternately tiny mini ... chalii ... which I took when I was sick and didn't wish to spread my germs. Their wine was tasty stuff ... apparently someone in the congregation made it themselves and it was rich and very pleasant.

[bdot]

66. Southern Baptist here

We drink grape juice. Which is a good thing since I don't drink anything with alcohol (personal preference not religious preference).

[hollowdweller]

69. What I always found interesting was the emphasis of baptisim over the

the eucharist in a lot of the fundamentalist churches. The one I went to as a kid only did communion infrequently but did baptisims all the time. Yet as I got older I read the Bible more extensively and from what I read I couldn't really find that much Jesus said about baptisim, but he specificically said to do the wine and bread.

As far as wine versus grape juice, the same could be said of the wafers instead of real loaves of bread.

[Still_Loves_John]

92. Might be a protestant thing more than a fundie thing

It's hard to tell sometimes, since most fundamentalists are Protestants, and the Catholic fundamentalists are so different than the Protestant ones that you shouldn't even think of them as similar anyways.

But I know that, at my (protestant) church, we only have communion once a month, and there's usually someone getting baptized every week. When I've gone to Catholic Churches, they've had communion every week, and I've only ever seen them Baptizing babies, never any adults. So that might be it.

Unless you mean that the same people were getting baptized over and over, cause that would just be weird.

[Silverhair]

98. Frequent baptisms????

In all fundamentalist denominations that I know of, Baptism is supposed to be a once-in-your-lifetime experience. You may have watched baptisms of others, but you should not have seen the same person dunked twice.

[MHalblaub]

81. I drink beer and wine.

I prefer that instead of some synthetic kind of drink like a coke.

Beer and wine are healthier than just water when drunken in a proper amount.

[Piperay]

67. I was raised a Lutheran too

and it seems that it was really unusual to have actual wine. I think Lutherans are some of the few that have real wine.

[disillusioned1]

78. I was raised Lutheran

My church had Mogen David wine and the round wafers. No matter what they serve, it's still symbolically Jesus's blood and body. Blech.

[JVS]

82. It would figure that Lutherans have real wine, after all we believe...

that it really is the blood and body of Christ that is present "in and under" the bread and wine. If you're going to take the "wine=blood" literally, you might as well take the wine segment literally as well

[kohodog]

70. Seems like a lot of them drink Grape flavored Kool Aid... n/t

[Logansquare]

76. Raised Presbyterian. Grape juice and cubed Wonder Bread at comm.

Our church wasn't fundy, but many old-fashioned Protestants in our congregation didn't imbibe. The Wonder Bread...just call it Presbyterian soul food.

[Logansquare]

77. BTW, Lutheran picnics (not MO Synod) are da bomb

Beer and German food! Missouri Synod Lutherans don't know how to party.

[paineinthearse]

79. No disrespect intended, but

I thought fundies drank real blood.

[Still_Loves_John]

90. I'm a Methodist, and we drink grape juice even though we can drink normall

There was once a pastor whose son was a recovering alcholic, so he served grape juice at communion. It kind of caught on, and now all Methodist Churches, and I'm sure others, do it. That's where Welches grape juice comes from, incidentally.

It has nothing to do with some kind of Puritanical drinking ban, its just kind of a courtesy to people who need to avoid alchol altogether.

[DefenseLawyer]

93. Can't be all liquored up

when the snake handling starts. That's just common sense.

[Cocoa]

94. my non-fundie childhood church drank grape juice

it's symbolic anyway, I don't think it's about the alcohol.

[Misunderestimator]

96. I belonged to many denominations growing up... Episcopalians were

the only ones to drink wine of the protestant churches I attended. The others (Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of Christ) had purple grape juice in little shot glasses :).

[lady lib]

97. Some churches use grape juice because

the Bible refers to "the fruit of the vine" so they are adhering to Biblical principals while avoiding whatever issues the church or individuals within the church may have with alcohol.