While we keep patting ourseleves on the back for having outed

[KlatooBNikto]

Bernard Kerik, Jeff Gannon and others,I see them as entertainment scraps that Karl Rove throws at us as diversions;the serious business of undermining our will to resist,dismantling the entire edifice of the programs great Democratic Presidents from FDR to LBJ built up proceeds apace while we are scoring brownie points among ourselves.Our entire Democratic Senators have become less than useless.When I heard John Kerry talk about not supporting Senator Kennedy's proposal to set up a timetable for our withdrwal from Iraq, I could not resist asking "Which side are you on, John Kerry"?Disgusting.

[shraby]

1. I believe Kerry's statements were taken

out of context. Someone pointed this out earlier in a thread by posting the whole statement.

[paineinthearse]

2. A plethora of Guckert self-congratulatory threads, and no attention to *'s

...plan to gut the federal civil service and labor unions.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3112073#3113752

[KlatooBNikto]

5. There was a time in this fair land that one could presuppose what

the French call Noblesse Oblige in political discussions. Our system used to produce change with such an open discussion. Now, the advent of Bush has resulted in a thuggish and brutish political environment where only the strongwilled and swinish among us can survive.I think that more than anything else it is no longer possible for us to effect change by political discourse and even less of a possibility that change will come about through elections.The credibility of our electoral system has been compromised irretrievably.

[coloradodem2005]

3. I bet Rumsfeld is the next to go down.

[applegrove]

4. I think we get so down about it all that something like Mangate becomes

a little bit of a break. What is going on is serious and devastating. For sure a country has to change with the times but that doesn't mean it has to allow corporations to take over. I think the way we handle Mangate says more about our need for a break than anything else. I certainly am glad he turned out to be doing something illegal (or advertising to do something illegal). Cause otherwise simply outing him was kind of smelly.

No matter who our enemies are - we have to not stoop and never go after the things about a person they cannot change, just go after their actions. That is an important thing to keep in mind. The main mangate theme should remain: was this paid propaganda. Cause that is illegal and pertinent.

[progressivebydesign]

6. It's bigger than the supposed outing. It's about possible criminality.

I think people are simplifying the whole 'outing' thing tonight. It's not about who's gay for entertainment sake or revenge. It's actually a VERY large issue. Because it gives us a glimpse into possibly impeachable offenses in the White House, and perhaps criminal activities. when you have the likes of aka Jeff Gannon given unprecedented access to the White House, and supposedly the Plame documents (which are classifie), and you find that highly placed people in the White House may be involved with this character in others ways.. then is much bigger than some idle talk on DU. When Bush is paying or whatever supposed journalists to push thru things like his lame Soc. Security, etc. then it's ALL relevant.

[johnaries]

7. I think Kerry is just being honest and practical,

the exact OPPOSITE of the Gannon/Guckert scandal.

To be able to set a timetable, you have to have a plan to base it on. That's always been Kerry's point, there is no "plan." Before we can set up a timetable for withdrawal, we have to have a timetable for Iraqi troop training. Before you can have that timetable, you have to have a training plan.

A training plan means you have to assess your resources - both your "training" resources and your "trainee" resources. Our training resources are woefully inadequate. Which is why Kerry has been pushing to bring more of the International Community (that Bush has pissed off) into the training process.

Secondly, we know from the first Gulf War that plenty of Baathist's would have defected if given the chance. Plus, many anti-American sects would be willing to be trained if they didn't think they would be supporting an American puppet regime. Bush has alienated all of these potential trainees.

Although I appreciate the effort to keep pressure on the Bush Administration to clean up their mess, I don't think pushing for a "timetable" is necessarily the best way to do so.

I'll have to go with Kerry on this one.