Area ALL white males "PRIVILEGED"?

[UdoKier]

Area ALL white males "PRIVILEGED"?


There has been much contention these few days about this, with some on one extreme claiming that ALL white males, no matter their station in life are privileged (one poster even said that whites who didn't make it were just lazy morons for not talking advantage of all the giveaways!), and that ALL people of color are held down, while the other extreme gripes about "reverse discrimination" and Affirmative action.

While I disagree with the notion that whites as a group are being dumped on and held back by society as blacks have been, I also believe that there are large minority of whites who don't enjoy the "privilege" and opportunities that they're being attributed as having.

My point here is not to deepen the rift caused by this discussion. I understand both sides' position, but I think it's crucial that the democratic party find middle ground on this and reach out to white working-class voters who were once in our camp by default thanks to the unions organizations.

Now that union membership in this company has dwindled to record lows, and the number of working poor of all colors, including whites, has increased, we as a party need to show that we are the party of working people. ALL working people, not just "minorities" or union members.

The rhetoric that "ALL whites have it easy" is highly divisive and can only drive a natural constituency away from our party. We must acknowledge that a huge segment of the white population IS mired in poverty and needs HELP.

By the same token, those who whine about the opportunities being created by Affirmative Action by citing anecdotes where some white person got the short stick are also being dishonest, IMO. There is no nationwide pattern of discrimination against whites.

If you are a poor white person (like myself) who is struggling to get by, don't blame Affirmative Action - look to the oligarchy that controls EVERYTHING in this country.

Working-class and poor blacks and whites in have a shared interest, and should be united against the power elites that try to divide us. As far back as the Depression, work crews of blacks and whites were able to overlook their differences to unite and strike for better wages. No more wedges between whites and blacks of the working class!


***

Area ALL white males "PRIVILEGED"?

[UdoKier]

1. Umm... How about READING the post before voting?

Whatever... No way you early voters could have read the entire thing that fast...

[QC]

6. Udo, the vote you see here is the natural result of having a so-called

"Left" that has forgotten about class. We are great on race, gender, and sexuality, but we ignore class, which is a very big part of the picture.

That's a big part of why we lose elections. Would a white guy who works at Jiffy-Lube, shops at Salvation Army, and can barely afford groceries really think that the Democrats are his friend after looking around this place for a while? Of course not.

In large measure, this country is so dominated by the Right because our neutered "Left" is, as my grandfather (a white male oppressor who dropped out of school in fourth grade to work in the mines and never in his life lived in a house with indoor plumbing) would say, about as useless as tits on a boar hog.

[UdoKier]

8. No shit. If we raise the slightest objection to unconscionable tax cuts

for the rich, we're pilloried as fomenting "class warfare", and we duck and cover. PATHETIC.


THEY are the ones engaging in class warfare. Stealing money from our grandchildren to line their pockets now. REPUBLICANS ARE SCUM .

[mopinko]

14. i got news for ya

as a good lefty who happens to NOT be poor, there ain't always a lot of room around here for ME.

[UdoKier]

15. What do you mean?

NT

[mopinko]

19. i have been told more than once

that i don't get it, cuz i am priveledged. like arguing about the social security cap for one.
if you try to tell people "no goose, no golden egg" about anything, you better duck.

[UdoKier]

23. Don't let'em get you down - that's details.

One dem may favor lifting the cap on SS taxes, others may want means testing.

Personally, I favor not messing with it until the problem is more immediate. Predicting demographic trends 30 years in the future is tricky business. The Earth was supposed to have 9 bil. people by now, but we're only at 6.

But this isn't a Social Security thread! :)

[elehhhhna]

20. Yep. I'ts moved from race to class IMHO..."We've turned the corner" says W

[Lautremont]

2. I read it.

As society is currently set up, and has been for many, many years, all white males (of which I am one) are privileged by having been born white males. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous and unhelpful.

This doesn't mean all white males have it easy. That's ridiculous. But if you don't think being born a white male provides at least a small boost, then you haven't been paying attention.

[UdoKier]

3. Thanks for your input.

NT

[snoochie]

39. Please point out the boost for a while male born in Appalachia.

I would sincerely appreciate a response.

[lastliberalintexas]

49. He can drive a vehicle in any

part of a town or county without fear. He can be approached by a policeman on a street in any city without fear. He can talk to a white woman in the south without fear.

I don't agree that all white males are privileged. I think the better thesis is that any white male starts with a couple of advantages over those of color or females in *similar circumstances*.

[Just Me]

56. The issue would be better framed in terms of the causes of hardship.

The causes of the hardship being felt by white males have nothing to do with skin color and I really oppose polls or positions which place emphasis in the wrong territory.

The underlying cause for the hardships that millions of white males do, in fact, suffer has to do with a corporate governance wielding power for greed. That corporate governance has destroyed jobs, destroyed competition through "law-making", destroyed unions/labor, and essentially advantaged itself of hard working people.

I've lived around mining towns most of my life. They are bled to death by big coal companies then left to become ghost towns.

The foregoing issue is separate and distinct from issues relating to civil rights and affirmative action.

[snoochie]

93. I'm referring to the poorest of the poor.

I don't think many people in Appalachia drive at all.

Care to try again?

[QC]

98. Do you honestly think affluent white people only see color?

Do you honestly think that people's accents and mannerisms and clothes do not mark them as belonging to a class?

Of course not. But the underlying assumption of much of this discussion is that white people all love one another and stick together. Having grown up blue-collar in an affluent, status-conscious place, I can assure you that privileged whites do not look at a poor white guy with crooked teeth and a downhome accent and see a brother. They, like many of the alleged liberals on this site, see a "redneck." And such people are not part of the power elite, no matter what their melanin and penis status might be.

[Just Me]

112. It's true. "White trash", "trailor trash", etc. Class-based bashing.

The issue involving struggling white men has to do with living in a corporate-controlled country that is pouring opportunity to the wealthiest and leaving everyone else behind.

It's a terrible mistake to blend the struggles of white males with issues involving race. Those matters should be distinguished. Otherwise, fuel is being generated for continued racism.

[lastliberalintexas]

134. Where did I say that?

If you'd read my other posts on this thread and the separate thread I started (which apparently died a quiet death), you'd see that I believe most racial and religious issues are used to divide the Proletariat. The Privileged Class is playing the Divide and Conquer game quite well.


Having said that, to say that being white carries absolutely no advantage is silly. I'm white and I have no doubt that I've probably been treated better by some store security guard than a black shopper at some point.

But the real issue is still how the rest of us, the 98% who don't control the world, could rise up like the Phoenix if only we weren't distracted or divided by bullsh** issues. They (the 2%ers) know this, and know that they'd be overthrown a la the French Revolution if we could just get our act together. Which is why they keep us distracted...

[Just Me]

140. The problem is: the poll posted fails to properly present the issue.

As you stated, "the real issue is still how the rest of us, the 98% who don't control the world, could rise up like the Phoenix if only we weren't distracted or divided by bullsh** issues."

The poll posted is divisive and improperly frames the real issue pertaining to WHY white men are suffering from serious economic difficulties.

The issue should NOT be framed within the realm of civil rights but rather economic injustices that impact ALL AMERICANS.

[lastliberalintexas]

154. Yes, economic justice should be our first priority

Many other issues almost take care of themselves when the Proletariat is prosperous. And at one time in the not so distant past our party actually discussed these issues. *sigh* Hopefully we can have a new beginning of sorts, with a new chair and the grassroots pushing for reforms!

[UdoKier]

196. I tried to make clear that this wasn't a "reverse discrimination" thread.

It is about class. It's only about color in that some who would claim to be working in the interests of minorities insist on painting ALL white men as privileged. As a democrat, I don't like that kind or rhetoric because it is EXTREMELY effective at driving away one of our most natural constituencies, white working-class and poor people.

What I'm talking about isn't even about any change in policy, it's about making sure that both minority voters AND poor white voter KNOW that we're in their corner. As it is, I can tell you that way too many poor whites have been deluded into thinking that the GOP is in their corner and that we are only out to "help the blacks" It's not true, but that kind of "ALL whites are privileged" rhetoric helps spread that misconception.

But overall, I think the democratic party is doing the right thing on civil rights issues. It's just the rhetoric some people use that is potentially alienating.

[Just Me]

207. This is an example of how we must better "frame" or define the issues.

I just knew when you posted your subject line and poll, it was going to turn into a white/black wedge battle. I don't question your intention. I noted your explanation. I simply believe that this is a perfect example of ineffective "framing".

Impoverished white males are not to blame for the all issues relating to racial discrimination. If anything, their circumstances and the failure to clearly point out the CAUSE of their circumstances lend to a perpetuation of racism.

If we fail to properly define the CAUSE of their circumstances as one involving an economic injustice created by greedy corporatists, whom are they left to blame?

Just look at what's happening on this thread.

Struggling, impoverished, white men's circumstances are being demeaned, racial divisions are being injected, and the truth is simply being lost in yet another useless bantering that helps NO ONE.

We can do better.

Doncha' think we can do better in bringing our people together on common causes?

[UdoKier]

222. I wish I knew a way.

It seems to me that about a third of the people here "get it". About a third are stuck on insisting on this abstraction of "white privilege" , and another third seem to be blaming the problems of poor whites on Affirmative Action etc.

Wake up people. We're all in this together. It's the oligarchy, it's Bush, it's Bechtel, it's the freaking magazines and TV and culture that tell you you're crap if you don't have an H2 and washboard abs, it's all of it. It's NOT Affirmative Action that is the root of the problem. We live in a country that is rich enough to provide a DECENT WAGE to ALL workers of ALL colors, as well as universal health care! We are all so manipulated, all the time. (sigh)

[Just Me]

229. You could have done a poll on the causes of poverty.

Or, you could have done a poll on the causes of impoverished white males.

Or, you could have done a poll whether impoverished white males are to blame for economic injustice.

Or, you could have done a poll on whether impoverished white males are being recruited to perpetuate a divide the power-mongers want in order to further concentrate their own wealth and power.

If you orient yourself towards a unifying effort, you will better shape your message,...and your polls.

[ultraist]

177. well said lastliberalintexas!

It's dangerous to ignore the fact that racism exists and diminish the adverse effects thereof, just as it is dangerous to ignore classism exists.

Those who have experienced an ism do have something in common. Yet, those of us who have not experienced more than one ism, cannot truly understand their struggles. We can only accept the facts and work to alleviate racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia.

I can only imagine what life would be like for me if I was a poor, black woman rather than a white upper middle class woman. Black women are the poorest segment of our society and I do not believe it's because they are less capable. It is because they face far more barriers to opportunity than I do.

[Just Me]

197. Are you saying that economic disparity isn't an important issue?

Economic disparity and injustice impacts ALL AMERICANS!!!

Why do you insist on making this a racial issue rather than an economic one?

Are you incapable of UNITING on the economic injustice which impacts ALL AMERICANS?

Your posts seem to perpetuate the racial divide by mischaracterizing "poor white males" as a racial rather than economic issue.

[ultraist]

232. Didn't I write that CLASSISM exists? I believe I did

But I have no interest in being silenced on the issue of racism. My upper middle class African American son is affected by racism more than classism and I will continue to speak about it for his sake and the sake of all minorities.

Shall we NOT talk about discrimination against gays too? I don't think so.

A few people here are in a huff that the rest of us refuse to be silenced on the issue of racism.

Poor Blacks are hit TWICE as hard as Poor Whites. That is a fact supported by hard evidence, stats and research.

I'm not the one here ignoring an issue/social ill.

Supporting EQUAL OPPORTUNITY means to acknowledge ALL of the forms of oppression. It does not mean ignoring most and speaking about only ONE form.

[Just Me]

243. Please, please,...I am asking you to do what you want others to do,...

,...walk a mile in another person's shoes.

We have GOT to stop pretending like life and others' lives fall squarely into a round hole.

We had better begin to acknowledge that none of us have the patent, trademark or patent on human suffering or struggle.

We had better begin to acknowledge that, presently, there is a common enemy oppressing us all,...and that common enemy IS NOT impoverished white males.

I don't see how your insistence upon blaming ALL white males rather than the ones manipulating ALL AMERICANS helps advance your obvious passion for equality. I just don't see it. To the contrary, your divisive position on impoverished white men seems to perpetuate racial divides rather than advance your passion for equality.

Please, don't beat up on those who are only guilty of being forced to live in circumstances beyond their control. To do so makes you your own worst advocate.

[ultraist]

Please explain how racism doesn't exist

And explain how blacks who are wealthy are immune from racism.

Furthermore, please explain why my African American son, is discriminated against, even though, he is an upper middle class suburban kid.

Poor blacks are DOUBLE hit: racism and classism
Poor whites are hit with just classim, thus they enjoy the privilege of being white.

[snoochie]

99. There is no privilege in being white in an all white environment. n/t

[ultraist]

143. We don't live in an all white society, 70% white

You seem to take the black and white stance, that since classism affects some white males, then racism doesn't exist.

That is illogical. Racism and classism exist. As does sexism and homophobia.

If you were a poor black female, you would face: racism, classism, and sexism.

Black women are comprise the poorest segement of our society according to USCB stats. The obvious reason for this is that they are TRIPLE hit with isms.

All people are created equal.

[snoochie]

159. Society isn't homogenous.

I'm taking the black and white stance because that is the dichotomy presented by ANYONE that claims that ALL white males are privileged.

Whether or not anyone else suffers whatever 'isms', it's a fact that some white males do as well. Therefore the original statement in the OP is false. That's all I'm saying.

You keep saying that it depends on the way one defines 'privileged'. That's the sticking point, I think.

It's offensive to a large group of poor, hurting individuals when they are told they are privileged.

Perhaps those that like to make that lamebrained assertion would like to add a footnote to their ludicrous claim: "In this case privileged means sure you may be broke as hell, but you're still white, so shut up."

See how stupid that is?

[Just Me]

163. I live in a poor, rural area. So, your point is well-received.

"Poor" is "poor" and it is simply WRONG to confuse economic injustices with social ones.

Moreover, the original post in this case was an extremely "poor" way of defining the problem.

[ultraist]

166. Oh, resorting to calling people lame brained and stupid?

If you are incapable of accepting the fact that racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia exist, that's really unfortunate.

The facts are the facts. You have failed to provide any facts to support your claims.

We have provided real facts: The percentage of blacks in poverty is three TIMES the percentage of whites in poverty.

Far fewer blacks have college degrees. Far fewer blacks earn over the median income or upper income.

FACT CHECK THIS! All of this info on the GAPS that exist between blacks and whites is available on the US Census Bureau website.

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL so why is it, a much higher percentage of blacks live in poverty? Fewer have degrees? Fewer earn median and upper incomes?

Explain that? Is it because blacks are less capable or is it because they face MORE barriers?

[snoochie]

169. Please re-read. I called the assertion lamebrained and stupid.

Yes, I said it: the assertion that ALL white males are privileged is lamebrained and stupid.

I have never denied that racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia exist. Are you by chance confusing me with someone else?

You keep ranting about the number of blacks in poverty as if that proves that ALL white males are privileged. I assure you, it does not. Unless you whip out that tortured definition of 'privileged'.

There are many factors which have lead to the situation most minorities find themselves in. And yes, they face barriers in greater numbers. Do minorities face more barriers than whites? I honestly don't think so... they just face them in much greater numbers.

Intellectual laziness is a real problem.

[ultraist]

172. Can you answer this question?

I agree with your statement snoochie: "Intellectual laziness is a real problem."

When people fail to inform themselves on the facts and posit biased oppinions, it's a real problem.

You still did not explain why it is, the percentage of blacks in poverty is three times higher than the percentage of whites in poverty. Why is that?

[snoochie]

176. Do you need me to explain it to you?

It's clearly most significantly due to racism.

However, the existence of racism and its effect on the number of minorities in poverty is not the point of this discussion. I refuse to get sucked into a side argument when the subject which is the intent of the original post is so critical.

I want to prove that "ALL white males are privileged" is a false assertion.

Everything else is a waste of my time.

[Just Me]

194. Are you blaming impoverished white men for that statistic?

:shrug:

Are struggling white males at fault?

:shrug:

[UdoKier]

201. That's kind of like me saying...

"Why is it that the vast majority of people receiving food stamps and welfare are white?"

That fact alone doesn't take away from the fact that more whites are in positions of power. Nor does it negate the fact that blacks are much more likely to suffer from discrimination, poverty, and all the other ills.

That statistic, like yours, is at best only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

[KnowerOfLogic]

198. Even if white man suffer, they suffer because of their *circumstance*

not because thet are white males.

[Just Me]

199. A "circumstance" created by corporate greed which impacts all Americans.

It really bugs me that an issue about economic injustice is being twisted into a divisive wedge between races.

[KnowerOfLogic]

205. It most certainly does *not* affect all races equally, and no one

is saying that economic injustice does not exist. I am one of the biggest crusaders for respecting work in this country, and for providing conditions where working people can earn a decent living. It is possible to consider and address more than one issue.

[Just Me]

212. It impacts the vast majority of our people,...ALL OUR PEOPLE!

I could sit here and inject my "womanhood" as the being the longest historical example of "slavery". But, what the hell does that sort of DIVISENESS accomplish for everyone else?

I am an advocate for social and economic justice and a purer form of democracy such that WE ALL benefit.

If you prefer to turn this into a "racial" battle rather than an economic one,...that is YOUR CHOICE!!!

Personally, I prefer NOT to engage in behavior which perpetuates the racial divide which impoverished white males have NOT caused (and the wealthy white ones WANT to remain in place).

[KnowerOfLogic]

203. Well, the question becomes irrelavent then, doesn't it? Clearly,

the issue only arises where the *are* people of other races involved; and you didn't even adress the issue of white *women* in an all-white environment. And btw, racial discrimination is rather a factor in the very existance of these all-white environments.

[snoochie]

206. No, it does not.

The assertion in the OP is the commonly held belief that "ALL white males are privileged".

My example was only meant to prove that there are white males in this country who are enjoying no privilege solely on account of their skin color and genitalia.

[Just Me]

235. BS! All white males are NOT "privileged",...a few lap up this crap!!!

A very elite FEW just lap up this divisive crap up because it advances their greedy, corporatist, power-mongering goals!!!!

DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!!

INTENTIONALLY INCITE CIVIL UNREST!!!!

INTENTIONALLY CREATE DIVISIONS!!!

Yeah. Those few greedy assholes are polished at dividing and manipulating people in just the right way.

Meanwhile, I know that I am a member of one race,...the human race,...which is struggling against those who are spending ALL OF US!!!

[Lautremont]

64. Just compare his lot with that of a black male or any female born

in the same place and circumstances. I repeat: I'm not saying all white males live in the lap of luxury and have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Class issues are real and even less dealt with than gender and race issues. But nevertheless the advantage is there for the pink-skinned folk. It may be completely obscured by other factors, but it's there.

Also, remember: privilege is nothing more than a benefit, and it can be slight. It's not the same as being "privileged" in the way the word is normally used.

I have to admit that I came this close to answering your question with "A natural ability to play the banjo," but figured it probably wasn't what you were looking for.

[snoochie]

101. I *am* comparing them to people of other color in the same circumstance.

"I have to admit that I came this close to answering your question with "A natural ability to play the banjo," but figured it probably wasn't what you were looking for."

Actually that's exactly what I'm looking for. You just gave a great example of one way that poor whites are prejudged in much the same way that poor black people are.

Thanks.

[Lautremont]

115. Glad to oblige.

But really, what's the point of concentrating on Appalachia, or on some Hollywood producer's image of a poor white male, when what we're talking about here is society at large? There's no such thing as an all-white environment if you're looking at the big picture, and this is a big-picture issue.

[snoochie]

122. To me it's not a issue about society at large, or a big picture issue.

This is about recognizing that we're shooting ourselves in the foot as a party.

I agree that racism is an important issue, but we're allowing ourselves to be divided over statistical arguments. It's pointless.

And I'm disturbed that you refer to the problems of so many people as "some Hollywood producer's image of a poor white male". These are real people we're talking about, however much you don't like to admit it.

[Lautremont]

130. So if talking about racism is pointless,

and tantamount to "shooting ourselves in the foot," just what is the issue you want to zero in on with such laser-like precision? Poverty? How can that be dealt with independently of racism?

I was not referring to people's prblems as "some Hollywood producer's image" as though they weren't real. I was referring to your zeroing in on my little bad-taste joke.

I still insist on this being a society-wide issue rather than something that can be discussed using bits of the country chosen for how they bear up a particular argument. Saying this is not the same as saying that the problems of the people in these regions are not real and important.

[snoochie]

132. I didn't say discussing racism is pointless.

I said allowing ourselves to be divided over it is.

Do you really think poverty can't be addressed apart from racism? I don't think it's a challenge at all. What's so hard about that?

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Your joke reflected a real bias against poor whites, and where the stereotype came from is not important.

Whatever other arguments you want to get into, you must admit that ALL white males are not privileged.

[Lautremont]

135. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.

Your clarification on what you thought is pointless is noted. Thanks.

But to me, there's a very definite correlative relationship between racism and poverty, and looking at one leads you to the other, unless you're studiously avoiding black people in your investigation of poverty, and that wouldn't be very realistic or helpful.

I also disagree with your evident definition of 'privileged.' I've said all along that, depending on other factors, the privilege of being born white can be slight, and can even be overshadowed by the other factors. This doesn't mean the advantage isn't there, even if it's only potential.

But I appreciate the discussion and respect your opinion, though I don't share all of it.

[snoochie]

142. A correlative relationship between racism and poverty exists.

However, I don't think that means that we can't address poverty without addressing racism.

[ultraist]

146. The facts support your opinion on that correlation, Lautremont

If people were to review real data and reputable research, they would find that your assertion is correct and is supported by FACT.

I think we have another fact based vs. faith based situation here. One side bases their position on fact, where the other bases it on unsupported opinion and bias.

[snoochie]

149. Which assertion?

That we can't address poverty apart from racism?

[ultraist]

157. You cannot throw out relevant variables and get an accurate result

the assertion that he/she made here: "there's a very definite correlative relationship between racism and poverty."

If you were to logically evaluate poverty, ALL relevant variables must be factored in.

The percentage of blacks in poverty is 3 TIMES the percentage of whites in poverty. WHY is that? Are we not all created equal? Or is it that equal opportunity is even more limited to blacks, thus whites have some privilege over blacks, even poor whites.

[Lautremont]

162. Too many people here are thinking no further than

their own privation. It's real and it's tough, but it's not what's at issue here. As ultraist has said elsewhere on this thread, the very existence of racism implies that there must be a race of people bearing the brunt of it. And those people sure aren't white.

[snoochie]

165. Aren't you straying fromt he point of the OP?

Is it true or false that ALL white males are privileged?

[ultraist]

175. Yes, some cannot accept that both classism and racism exist

Perhaps it is because they are a victim of classism and feel if they acknowledge racism exists, it diminishes their struggles; when in fact, the denial of racism doesn't diminish their personal struggles, but it does diminish the struggles of blacks.

How sad. This is what my African American adopted son faces.

[snoochie]

178. Who cannot accept that both classism and racism exist?

The problem I see most prevalent on this thread is not that the two problems exist. The problem I see most obviously displayed is the inability to recognize that the two problems, although often related, are not completely intertwined.

[snoochie]

164. I disagree.

I think you MUST narrowly define the scope of any examination into a problem to its most basic parameters if you're to get to the root of any problem. Throwing in other factors is useful as well, but not strictly necessary in order to address the issue at hand.

In fact, an argument can likely be made that adding in other factors (racism, sexism, classism, discrimination based on religion -- is there an -ism for that? -- only serves to further complicate the issue.

In the OP the case was made for boiling these things down in order to appeal to all working class people. Is that something you consider unnecessary?

[ultraist]

180. "must narrowly define the scope" ???

I prefer not to wear blinders, thanks anyway.

If it's too complex for you to consider all of the forms of oppression in one conversation, fine.

Futhermore, saying 'racism exists but white privilege doesn't' is totally illogical.

I prefer logical and fact based discussions.

You have yet to provide any facts to back up your claims or logically argue your position.

[snoochie]

182. Racism exists, yes. Against all races, not just minorities.

In some places/situations, you have an advantage if you're white. In others, you have an advantage if you're not.

"If it's too complex for you to consider all of the forms of oppression in one conversation, fine."

I never said nor implied that it was too complex for me to have a conversation about. I was referring to the examination of complex problems. Yes, boiling them down to the root issues is necessary.

I stated my goals in this conversation. You chose to use that as a means to hurl an insult.

Good day.

[IronLionZion]

127. A poor white man and a poor black man apply for a job

Affirmative action set aside, who will likely get the job?

People have a natural subconscious tendency to hire people just like themselves. It is a fact that the people who do the hiring in this country tend to be white. The best way to promote diversity is to have a diverse group of hiring managers.

[snoochie]

131. So in other words,

those white men that are lucky enough to live where jobs are available will have an advantage. Which means that *some* white males are privileged. Clearly, not all are.

[KnowerOfLogic]

195. Jeezus, if you want to make the exception the rule, then why even

bother discussing anything. Okay, if you are a straight white man and you are auditioning to play Audre Lourde (sp?) in an upcoming mega-million dollar movie, you probably will not be 'favored' for this role, but how often does this type of situation arise. And btw, even in Appalachia, there *are* jobs; if they are scarce and competition is tough, then so much the better for the white man. Notice that when jobs become scarcer nationwide, the minority unemployment rate rises the fastest.

[snoochie]

202. I want to prove the idiotic assertion in the OP false.

That is all.

I really wish using glittering generalities were not so popular.

It makes dealing with each other as individuals nearly impossible.

[KnowerOfLogic]

209. You haven't succeeded if you have to resort to AA or all-white

environments. And btw, you didn't address the woman question in all-white environments. Look, I am all for addressing and considering people as individuals; but that doesn't mean the general rules *don't exist,* or that they should be dismissed. After all, if racial/sex discrimination doesn't 'generally' exist, then i guess we don't need to worry about it, do we?

[snoochie]

221. Yes, I believe I have.

Seeing as how the assertion in the OP was made about "ALL" white males, proving that ANY white male does not automatically benefit from their color and sex disproves the assertion.

Regarding women, while it's true that the Democrats as a party aren't in too much danger of losing women's votes as a bloc to Republicans, I was primiarly concerned with ending the use of the blanket generalization in the OP.

However, you do have a point.

Still, it can't be said that all women are disadvantaged in all situations. Men enjoy an advantage in most situations, women in others.

Honestly, I don't think the game of 'who's more disadvantaged' is very productive. Isn't it better to just address discrimination on an individual level?

If we don't, we end up in situations where people who are not guilty of being discriminatory are painted as being exactly that... and where people who have enjoyed no privilege due to their inclusion in whatever group are painted as having benefitted from some privileges enjoyed by most others in whatever group they're in.

[ultraist]

238. And your statement can be proven by FACTS, knoweroflogic!

USCB stats show that a higher percentage of blacks fell into poverty last year than did whites and the percentage of those who fell out of the median income, last year, was higher for blacks than whites.

I hardly think that racism against white males is a social ill in our society. That is absolutely laughable!

[Lefty48197]

4. White males are born with a "leg up". What they do with the advantage

is up to them.

[mopinko]

5. i don't think all white males have it easy

but that does not mean the they do not all have an advantage that women and people of color do not have.
they have a couple of "beans" by virtue of being white and male. that may be all the beans they have. they may eat those beans instead of planting them. a woman of color may have some beans thanks to her family. or she may start with zero, get a couple of affirmative action beans, and eat them anyway. or grow them into a juicy vine. blanket statements are stupid.
(the unions, btw, really shot themselves in the foot by trying to hoard their beans. as a former woman carpenter, from a time where it was still tough for african-americans to get in, i can tell you that they let them rot in the storehouse.)

i approve of your intent, tho, to move beyond the divisive crap and all pull together.
your pole should have a neither option.

[UdoKier]

7. I thought of putting an "other"

But I don't want a bunch of nonsense griping about Affirmative Action. I support it, and I think most of the gripes against it are silly.

However, I do believe some whites in dire situations (there are some born with NO beans, believe it or not) who really need a leg up too.


BTW, regardless of the results of this poll (I'm really just curious) I think your argument has validity. But it's CRUCIAL that we show some understanding of white poverty, and realize that it's NOT just Bible brainwashing that's driving poor whites to vote for the GOP.

[mopinko]

11. i think white skin is a bean

no matter what your circumstances, it is a little worse if you are not white. even if you are born with a horrible handicap, having a white family instead of a black family gives you a bean.
i just can't think of a situation that is not made worse by being black.

[UdoKier]

13. For most people, yes.

For Michael Powell, it may have worked in his favor, along with his dad's considerable connections. But I realize that Michael Powell is not the norm...

[ultraist]

79. for most people? how can that be?

That is illogical. White skin is a bean or it isn't.

Why are the majority of power holders in our country WHITE males? Why are there 3x as many blacks proportionatly in poverty than whites?

[UdoKier]

188. Because all people in a given group are not the same.

The majority of power holders in this country are white males because they essentially inherit that power from their rich powerful white male forbears, just as poor whites inherit their position as poor whites from THEIR forbears. And despite the propaganda to the contrary, there is not all that much class mobility in this country. The vast majority of the super-rich had affluent parents. It's a very hard club to get into.

I really wish it worked the way you characterize it. I wish I earned the "average" of what white males earn, since that number factors in the exorbitant salaries of CEOs and other tycoons. Shave off that top 5 or 10% and the average wage for white men is much much lower.


Let me put it another way. Let's say I take fully half of the House, Senate, Supreme Court and fortune 500 CEO's, make them cement shoes and throw them into the ocean (oh, wouldn't that be a lovely sight?) And replaced every one of them with black men and women. Suddenly, blacks would be disproportionately represented in the government, and some might be comforted by that symbolism and claim that it meant the end of racism. But the number of people in those positions is only a few hundred, maybe a couple thousand. NOTHING has been done to help the millions of blacks still suffering in poverty, but you would say that all blacks are now privileged, right?

I don't dispute that more blacks live in poverty, or that many more blacks are victims of discrimination. I'm just saying that a white guy in appalachia who makes crap pay in a coal mine is not more "privileged" than a black guy making the same crap pay making flapjacks at Shoney's down in Georgia. They're both in the dumps, they both are probably discriminated against - one for his class, the other for both his class and race. And yes, the black guy probably faces a lot more racism and discrimination.

But the relative lack of abuse is an advantage - that's different than a privilege.

When you show me some data saying that white burger-flippers make more money than black burger-flippers, I may be more inclined to agree with the "privilege" argument.

[snoochie]

41. I completely disagree. Poor blacks have more beans than poor whites, IMO.

That is to say, society *seems to* more readily addresses the needs of that segment of the population.

Sometimes the perception that you're being left behind is enough to kill a person's motivation to try to change their situation. Every disadvantaged group should know this well. Note that I'm not saying it's justified, healthy, or reasonable. I'm simply pointing out that the situation exists and must be considered.

[UdoKier]

45. That would be very hard to quantify, and comparing the two...

...is needlessly divisive. Suffice to say that poor and working blacks and whites both have a tough row to hoe and should work together. Why try to foment envy and resentment one way or the other?

And for the millionth time, whether a person is black or white - he or she is an individual, with a unique set of attributes and problems, NOT an average of his or her race.

[snoochie]

105. You're completely right, it is needlessly divisive.

And the tendency to discuss groups rather than individuals is part of the problem.

I did not intend to foster discord, I was simply making a point that there is another point of view, another way to look at things.

Part of this discussion HAS to be an acknowledgement of the way society's manner of addressing these problems has on the mindset of the individual. That's where I meant to go with that statement.

[ultraist]

74. Let's look at some numbers

8% of those in poverty are white (70% of the population is white)
24% of those in poverty are black (12% of the population is black)

Who has more beans? Blacks or whites?

[HEyHEY]

84. Where did those stats come from?

[ultraist]

94. US Census Bureau website

Blacks are double whammied and the stats clearly show that.

[snoochie]

103. I agree that black people suffer poverty in disproportionate numbers.

However, that does not translate into "all white males are privileged".

[ultraist]

138. White skin is a bean. That doesn't deny the fact classism exists

Of course they do. Classism, sexism, racism, and homophobia exist and discussing it, is not divisive.

Don't let the Repukes SILENCE you.

Equal opportunity is a core value of the Democratic party. We must work to eliminate racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia.

Those who have experienced an ism, have a common bond. This is unifying, not divisive. 95% of people in this country have experienced an ism. For most it's classism, for the 12% of the black population is racism and likely ALSO classism.

Why do only 5% of the population earn over 200K? Because racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia exist.

[snoochie]

145. You can be white and still be a victim of racism.

Therefore, I do not agree that white skin is a bean.

Everything else you've said here I completely agree with.

[makhno]

129. You misrepresent the statistics

Your statement should read:

8% of whites live in poverty
24% of blacks live in poverty

As far as the race distribution of the total number of people living in poverty, here's some data.

[ultraist]

144. I stand corrected! thanks

I didn't write that correctly but I understood the stats:

The percentage of blacks in poverty is 3 times higher than the percentage of whites in poverty.

In other words, there is a disporportionately high number of blacks in poverty.But, since there are far more whites, whites comprise 44% of all those in poverty.

(I did get my stats from the USCB).

[ultraist]

181. "poor blacks have more beans?" WHOA!

Please explain that one! And provide some facts.

[snoochie]

184. Did you read the whole post?

Reading your response, I get the distinct impression that you did not, or you would not be asking this question.

Then again, considering that in other posts you have accused me of being completely unaware of the existence of racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia, it's pretty clear you're not carefully reading ANY of my posts.

As I pointed out above, you have gone from conversing to insulting. I therefore feel it is not worth my time to engage you any further.

Again, good day.

[ultraist]

70. exactly mopinko!

I don't think that just because you are not in the lower income brackets you don't have an understanding of our society and insights! LOL!

White female, upper middle class here. ;)

I don't deny my white privilege, it's sad that some do.

[TriMetFan]

9. Privileged

"If you are a poor white person (like myself) who is struggling to get by, don't blame Affirmative Action - look to the oligarchy that controls EVERYTHING in this country."

You are every right. Now it's up to the poor and when I mean the poor I say any one making less then 100,000. a year. To come together and put a stop to the one's that want to keep America divided.

[UdoKier]

12. 100K a year poor?

Takes me more than 3 years to earn that much...


But anyway, I would like those folks on our side too.

[TriMetFan]

27. See you can gross 100,000

in a two income home and pay up the a$$ in taxes,SS etc... We also give to others that have less then us. We don't have a big home or new cars. My car is 8 yrs. old. Its all about tax bracket. It's like I say:
"The poor keeps getting poorer and the middle class keeps getting taxe Up the A##. Will the rich keeps getting richer."

That is why I say we need to come together and stop the B.S.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. Certainly not rich, either

This is exactly where the true Privileged Class has excelled- at dividing the working and middle classes. There are really only 2 sides in this world- the 2% who own everything/hold all the capital and the rest of us. Anyone who doesn't see that is a fool, plain and simple.

I don't care if you're a white guy making $20K a year or a black woman making $200K a year, you are still not one of Them. We shouldn't eat our own.


And because I disagree with you about the Bible thumping angle, a favorite quote of mine:

Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich.- Napoleon

For if we all actually focused on the economic issues rather than the BS moralistic crap, that 2% would be pilloried.

[BGAL1965]

10. I can only speak for myself when i say

There is NO WAY IN HELL that i could be considered prevlidged. My income is 650 dollars a month from Social Security Disability. I also recieve 120 dollars a month in food stamps. I do have medicare and medicaid. And for that i am deeply grateful because i would be dead otherwise. Since in november 2000 i suffered a complete cardiac arrest.I was in the hospital at the time recovering from back surgery. I don`t see how anyone can come to the conclusion that i live a prevliged life. I know there are millions like me in this country. But like i said i can only speak for myself. But if I exist in this type of situation what are the odds that there are others just like me out there? So my adivise to those who say white me are prevliged is GET A CLUE !!!!!!

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

22. Semantics...Straw Men etc.

The use of the word privilege sure has been distorted to try and make the playing field even between the White guy and the non white guy.

I can find a white guy out there with no arms and no legs and I won't walk up to him and say, hey guy, you're privileged. I mean no SHIT, of course he's not privileged to be in that condition.!

I'm guessin some of you are missing the big picture.

[meegbear]

17. Area ALL white males "PRIVILEGED"?

or Are ALL white males "PRIVILEGED"?

Perhaps you should take your own advice in the first post.

[Warpy]

18. Statistically yes, individually no.

That means white males as a cohort fare much better than eveyrbody else in the country, including white females and nonwhite males, but that there are a few who lost out on the genetic lottery and have had few opportunities.

[snoochie]

114. Are we worried about losing statistics' votes to the GOP, or individuals'?

THAT's the crux of this issue.

[LiberallyInclined]

21. yeah...those west virginia coal-miners have it made...

they all must like it, having been born on easy st., and all...lucky stiffs.

:eyes:

[trumad]

24. Another straw man....

Are all coal miners white? I didn't know that...

[UdoKier]

26. To you, poor whites are just statistical aberrations and straw men.

To me, they're individuals with lives and real problems.


Just like the millions of blacks who struggle every day with economic realities AND racism.

[redherring]

30. Sure racism exists. But we can't forget millions of working class

Whites in this country. If we keep doing that, then we'll be forcing more Whites to become republicans. And I'm speaking as a minority here.

[UdoKier]

33. Yes, there are. But using Asians' success as an accusation against blacks

is very ugly and that kind of rhetoric will (rightly) get you in trouble around here.

[redherring]

40. First of all

I never made any inflammatory comments against blacks or other minorities. Fact is, I'm a minority myself, and I have myself been subjected to racism. But what I believe is that we minorities have it better TODAY, than we did in the past. Denying this is quite asinine. Comparatively speaking, racism indeed is NOT as rampant as it was in the past. What exactly is wrong with my statements?
Just believing that classism is also a big issue is inflammatory? Fine, as you wish.

[UdoKier]

43. Look, you can say what you want...

... but if you make a habit of framing the debate as being about "Well Asians can do it, so why are blacks so damn lazy", you're gonna have problems here. Even if you didn't MEAN to say that, that's what MANY here will read into your statement.

But hey, say what you like. I'm not a PC stickler, and personally would give you the benefit of the doubt. Just a heads-up.


I didn't have a problem with your comments about classism, I'm in full agreement there.

[redherring]

47. I'll be more careful next time on

but I was not trying to imply that blacks or other minorities are lazy.

[trumad]

68. There you go breaking it down to the individual's circumstances

which has absolutely nothing to do with the OVERALL advantages that white men have over everybody else.

Overall, not one, overall.

[HEyHEY]

76. It's two separate arguments

[snoochie]

Glittering Generalities, that's what you're talking about.

[ultraist]

170. well said! 35.9 MILLION people live in poverty

The percentage of blacks in poverty is THREE TIMES higher than the percentage of whites in poverty.

Some face more than one ism. But all in poverty face struggles and hardships.

Consider what it must be like for a handicapped, black, female, lesbian who lives in poverty, someone who is facing racism, sexism, homophobia, discrimination against handicapped persons and classism.

'I thought I was a poor man since I didn't have shoes until I saw the man with no feet.'

[HEyHEY]

59. Not after a day's work

[oasis]

90. White coal miners and their grandparents could buy real estate anywhere

in the U.S.. This is not the case with blacks who have been limited to poorer sections of real estate for decades. Even though they could afford better housing.

It was also easier for whites to get loans for homes and farms.

Use real estate as a marker when you begin your calculations.

[QC]

102. White coal miners could buy in Beverly Hills and the Hamptons?

Well shut my mouth! All this time my family could have been living the good life and there we were, living in shacks with a potty out back! What were we thinking?

Why does everything have to be either/or here? Why can people not comprehend that race can and generally does shut people out of the ranks of the privileged but class can and generally does do the same? Why do so many people who claim to be on the Left have about as much awareness of class and privilege as the Charleston Junior League?

[oasis]

106. Use common sense. WHITES could by anywhere. Blacks could not.

Real estate that blacks were denied access to (no matter how much money they had) has increased throughout the decades.

The color of the coal miners skin made him eligible for the prime real estate if he had the money.

Get it?

[QC]

113. "If" is a mighty big word.

As the old saying goes, "If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle."

Whites could live anywhere, *if* they had the money. Those who did not have the money were shut out for their poverty. Racial minorities were shut out for their skin color. Women were shut out for their sex.

The end result is that all were shut out.

Get it?

And while we sit around busily tearing one another to pieces over the precise gradations and permutations of oppression, the oppressed are getting screwed five ways from Sunday and the oppressors are making out like bandits, secure in the knowledge that the "Left" will never oppose them because it's too busy arguing over who's the biggest victim to be bothered with taking any sort of meaningful action.

[oasis]

120. I believe both of us "get it".

peace to you. :hi:

[redherring]

25. I voted no. It's not a race-issue these days.

I personally think it's a class issue. If racism is so rampant in America, how come Asian Americans have made it to the top economically?

[UdoKier]

29. Please don't deny the existence of racism in this society.

That's SO not what this thread is about.

[redherring]

32. I didn't deny racism

I just said that it's not rampant. You really believe that things haven't changed since the 60's? Racism exists no doubt, but it's not as huge a problem as it used to be once upon a time.

[UdoKier]

34. I think it is still rampant.

And "Asians" come to the table with many cultural and other advantages not available to many other minorities.

Your post really left a bad taste in my mouth by what it tries to imply.

[TriMetFan]

36. I agree with you.

I see racism every day. If its not from a white its from a black or Hispanic. I'm multiracial. But again this is what the Neo-Cons want. Keep America divided that way we will never have the power to control our future.

[snoochie]

118. "Keep America divided"

You're right, that is their plan, and it's working beautiflly, thanks to the cooperation of so many on the left.

I hope someday they stop cooperating.

[sandnsea]

28. Yes they are

Some just blow that privilege with drugs, teen fatherhood, disdain for education, etc. At any point that a white male decides to get his shit together, economic success will be easier than for minorities. Or single moms. White women without children have it considerably easier than minorities as well.

But the thing we always seem to forget to say as a party, 50% of Americans earn less than $30,000 a year and that always makes life hard, no matter your race or gender. I don't know how you make both points, but we need to figure it out.

[UdoKier]

31. I don't use drugs, never have, had kids at 27 with my wife

went to college on student loans, and I'm still poor.

You're wrong, and extremely out of touch.

[ultraist]

81. I wonder where you would be if you were BLACK?

Would you have gotten through college? Your bean of white skin did help you. How many blacks have degrees compared to whites? Why is that? It's because white skin is a bean, like it or not.

I'm not denying classism doesn't exist, but white skin is a bean in a white dominated society.

I'd like to hear someone argue why it isn't.

[DaveinMD]

97. its class

poor whites have a tough time. poor african-americans have a tough time. If we keep dividing ourselves, we are all fucked regardless of race.

[UdoKier]

116. Nobody helped me. I got student loans.

And I worked full-time while going through school as a cashier in a porn video shop because it was the only service job that paid enough for rent.

I hated that job, but I did it. Any black person who wanted to could have done it - the job is not considered desirable, so they are always begging for employees.

I would never have taken a job where I had to mop up spoogy video booths at the end of every shift had I had "privileges" to take advantage of.

I'm sure there were times when being white smoothed the way for me a bit, but a black man could have done exactly what I did (and still ended up making chump change like I am now).

And if white skin is a "bean", class, no matter what your color, can be a freaking COCONUT.

[ultraist]

153. YES!

Exactly! As you wrote Udokier: "I'm sure there were times when being white smoothed the way for me a bit,"

THAT is white privilege. You don't seem to be racist and I appreciate your comments that racism exists. Yet, you have benefitted from having white skin. Benefitting does not mean you are racist. It simply means that equal opportunity does not exist.

The existance of racism does not negate the fact that classism exists and maybe you have been affected by classism. Likely, any of us who are not in the upper class have.

If we look at the facts, the socio economic indicators, with the assumption, that all men (people) are created equal, we can logically conclude that people who face racism and classism are hit harder than those who face only classism.

Now, can we really quantify on an individual basis if a wealthy black male was hit harder by racism than a poor white male was hit by classism? Not really. But we can draw valid conclusions that people who experience more than one ism, are hit harder.

[snoochie]

126. Might he have had more help with college funds if he was black?

I wonder...

[ultraist]

160. What percentage of blacks get degrees compared to whites?

Hmmm? Why make statements such as that when you are unaware of the facts?

Your statement, infers that blacks have equal opportunity. I detect an undercurrent of racism in that statement. Do you want to rethink that after you do some research on this matter?

Consider this, homophobic statements are still homophobic even if they are cloaked in bible quotes.

[snoochie]

167. I didn't ask about who completes college once enrolled.

I asked about help with funding to go to college.

I'm truly not aware of what I've said that you think is racist.

I'm simply stating that from what I've read, there are many programs that provide financial aid specifically to minorities. However I'll freely admit that I didn't go to college, so I've never personally looked into it. I'm Hispanic, btw, so I might even benefit from such programs.

My statement was not intended to imply that minority students in high school have the same chance of getting into college as white students. Obviously there are many factors that cause that not to be the case.

My point was simply that if he had been able to secure extra funds if his skin were not white, would that not have been an advantage?

[ultraist]

185. You said it, whites have an advantage w/upper level edu

smoochie wrote: "My statement was not intended to imply that minority students in high school have the same chance of getting into college as white students. Obviously there are many factors that cause that not to be the case."

IF, there are more funds available, which has yet to be fact checked, this funding has NOT leveled the playing field. I am PRO Affirmative Action.

The possible additional funding HARDLY makes up for the disadvantages of getting accepted, a lesser edu in HS, likely a lower income family to help out, and the myriad of disadvantages.

You are Hispanic and don't believe that whites have advantages? That's very surprising to me.

[snoochie]

190. I never said that white people do not have advantages.

I am only saying that they are not the only group with advantages.

As I've said in another post: in some situations or places, being white is an advantage. In other situations or places, being a minority is an advantage.

It seems that you and a few others on this thread think that ALL advantages are a homogenous group, as you also seem to think that ALL white people are a homogenous group.

You can't have a reasonable debate while using what are commonly termed 'glittering generalities'.

[UdoKier]

208. Maybe. If you're talking about a UNCF scholarship.

But as a white, I would have been STATISTICALLY more likely to have parents who would pay for my college.

But since we're NOT statistics, I didn't see a DIME from them and was on my own.

Anyway, I'm glad there are things like UNCF scholarships. I just wish there were such benefits for people of every color. Don't a lot of European countries provide a free college education for everyone?

[snoochie]

228. Yes, I believe there are countries where a college educaiton is free.

And I apologize if I've hijacked your threads with the 'reverse discrimination' debate. (What a ridiculous term that is.)

I was only seeking to prove the original assertion false.

I would be so happy if we would all stop trying to divide ourselves into little cliques in order to fight about these things. I've tried to be impartial (I'm a Hispanic woman, btw).

[sandnsea]

110. Read the WHOLE post

50% of Americans earn less than $30,000 annually. I could add the incomes going up to 80%. It SUCKS. Economic disparity hits ALL of us. And that's a separate issue.

You make $30-35,000 a year. You're doing better than most women and minorities. It's totally fucked up that a person can have a median wage and still be broke. And I know exactly, precisely what you mean. You're singing my song and I sure as hell wish your life were better than mine.

Being a white male doesn't guarantee you wealth, but it is a bit of a shield against welfare poverty. It isn't even necessarily intentional. More white men are in positions of management and business ownership, white men network due to similar interests, they hire their friends or people they relate to. Human nature more than racism at this point probably. But it's still there and white men benefit and usually don't even know it.

[snoochie]

128. Doesn't that only prove that SOME white men are privileged?

Doesn't that prove his original statement in the OP false?

[sandnsea]

133. How?

If even work-a-day white men make more than women/minorities, doesn't that prove they have a leg up? Privilege alone isn't a guarantee. Anybody can screw up privilege. But being 25 yards ahead when you start always helps. Somebody may come from behind and pass you up, you may fall down; but the advantage is still there.

[snoochie]

139. Well obviously men have an advantage over women.

Is there any proof that a work-a-day white man makes more than a work-a-day black man in the same job?

[sandnsea]

189. lol

Honestly, if you have to ask that, you haven't done any reading to even begin to comment on the topic. White women are just barely under black men and I've seen reports where white women do better. EVERYBODY makes less than the white male. Why the hell do you think so many of them think they need their own party? It's nice sitting at the top of the mountain and they don't want to give it up.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0197814.html

[snoochie]

192. Your derision is misplaced, sandnsea.

Your link does not answer my question. It doesn't even begin to.

I asked if there were any evidence that a work-a-day white man and a work-a-day minority man (of whatever skin pigmentation) were not being paid the same wage for the same job.

It's well known and documented that women being paid less wages for the same job is a systemic problem in this country. I'm not aware of that being the case between males in the same jobs. If I'm mistaken, fine.

Being ugly and nasty toward the person you're conversting with lends your arguments no credibilty, you know.

[sandnsea]

204. It's answered

You know it's answered. Unless somebody, anybody, works in a situation where wages are set by law or through union representation, black men do not make as much as white men at the same job. If you dont know that, you've done no research.

That's not ugly or nasty. That's fact.

[snoochie]

213. You state it's a fact, and maybe it is.

I know that the situation wherein women have been paid less than men for the same job has been proven and even been the subject of lawsuits.

However I am not aware of this being the case for males of different skin pigmentations in the same job.

You claim that I must not have done any research. I assure you, I've tried. However, the data is often mishmashed in such a way as to be nearly useless.

If minority males have been paid less than white males in the same job, and this is a systemic problem in this country -- where are the lawsuits? Where is the hue and cry?

Because you see, just saying that all white males earn more than all other groups proves nothing. Because all those white, male CEO's earnings are lumped in with the white, male mechanics and security guards.

The nastiness was not in your assertion that your claims were facts... the nastiness was here:

"Honestly, if you have to ask that, you haven't done any reading to even begin to comment on the topic."

You should not be so quick to accuse peopele of having done no research, and I would also kindly suggest that you read questions more carefully before throwing up random links with irrelevant information.

[sandnsea]

227. Well you still haven't

The information is out there. The lawsuits are out there. Denny's. Adams Mark. It's really not my problem that you're not aware of all of it. It is such a common fact that it is actually astounding to me that anybody would question it. There's always reasons to excuse paying minorities less, it's a tough thing to prove racism. Double unemployment for black men, consistent reports of wage disparity and hiring discrimination. It's all out there and easily accessible.

I find it insulting and nasty that white people don't know this shit or try to pretend it doesn't exist.

[snoochie]

233. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those lawsuits were filed by customers,

on the basis of unequal service due to race, not unequal pay.

I'm Hispanic, btw... I'll also kindly suggest that you not assume things you don't know to be true.

[sandnsea]

250. Both

In any event, Abercrombie & Fitch, Coca Cola, Home Depot.

That took a long time to find. :eyes:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=u.s.+lawsuits+racial+discrimination&btnG=Search

Hispanics have it worse, I will grant you that. Which really leaves me scratching my head as to why you'd deny racial discrimination exists.

[ultraist]

241. I agree, sandnsea. It is offensive and hostile

The FACTS speak for themselves. We are discussing systemic problems and social ills.

Using illogical tactics such as citing an exception to the rule or cloaked racist comments do not negate the facts.

What a shame that any DEMOCRAT would support a Repuke position on oppression.

I wonder if the couple here that wrote, that racism exists but white privilege doesn't, (even though we know the facts show otherwise), realize how utterly absurd that is.

The question as to why discrepancies exist has yet to be answered by these few.

Why are there MORE poor blacks? Why are there more black females in poverty than any other group?

The major forms of oppression in our society are: racism, sexism, homophobia, and classism. Handicapped persons are also discriminated against. All of these groups are considered PROTECTED CLASSES according to the 14th Amdmt of our Constitution. White males are NOT a protected class for good reason.

It seems that whomever crafted that amdmt was much better informed and aware than those that deny reality.

[snoochie]

245. You are not reading any of these posts, are you?

sandnsea was WRONG.

And I'm ashamed that a fellow DEMOCRAT would be have such a nasty and dismissive of other Democrats after repeatedly being proved WRONG.

[UdoKier]

179. Actually I make closer to 25K

Maybe 28K if I include every gift and freelance job I get...

The wife makes maybe 4 or 5K per year.

And I agree with what you're saying about many kinds of middle class jobs.

But low-paying service jobs aren't like that. Everybody is dispensable and you're often reminded of it. There is no "networking" - that's strictly a middle and upper-class thing.

Not to say that there's no racism in the lower echelons, but I think it's less pronounced.

[ultraist]

252. Classism does exist, no doubt

But I must disagree that those in the lower eschelons face less racism. Money=power. By saying that, you are saying by default, classism doesn't exist for blacks.

Poor blacks get double screwed. They die younger due to less access to health care, they are more apt to be put in special ed classes, they are more apt to be targeted by the police, they are less likely to move out of poverty, the list goes on and on.

My adopted black son has more access to opportunity than his lower income black counterparts. So the reverse must be true. His lower income black counterparts have less access to opportunity, therefore, they face a higher degree of oppression because they are hit by two forms: racism and classism.

It's illogical to say that someone who is hit by two forms of oppression, racism and classism, is not worse off than someone who is hit by one form, just classism.

To say that would be saying racism doesn't exist. We are talking basic logic here. Not sure why a couple are having such a difficult time with basic logic.

I think part of the reason there has been somewhat of a firestorm on this thread is that privilege was not defined in the OP. Privilege in this context means whites have advantages over blacks. (Racism exists).

[snoochie]

35. Of course not!

That's a simpleminded ad hominem designed to divide the proles from each other.

[Spiffarino]

37. I voted yes because

...I think as a white male I have some societal advantages. Had I been born of another race or gender I would have had at least a few more obstacles to overcome.

Having said that, the advantages that come from being white and male are in no way comparable to being wealthy in this country. Wealth conveys singular advantages in this and any society.

[LSdemocrat]

38. No one is disadvantaged because they are a white male

but others are disadvantaged because of who they are.

While there certainly white men who have dire problems, it has NOTHING to do with the fact that they are a white man.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[lastliberalintexas]

51. Actually, I'd like to hear about them

They are a part of the 98% of us who are not the Privileged Class, regardless of their gender or race. The 2% which makes up the Privileged Class certainly does a good job of dividing and creating discord among the rest of us.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

52. Incredible Irony

Nothing in your rant contradicts the post you replied to. Did you not read it? Of all the disadvantages you describe, exactly which ones came from being a white male?

Everybody has problems. Few if any of them come from being white and male in America.


Respectfully submitted,

Spiffarino
White Male

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

109. Pardon me, but I'm a little confused.

But when I was in front, I was cut off. It was purely racial. Period.

I still don't see anything in your post that confirms that there was racism/sexism toward you.

Why are you so sure it was because you are a white male that you were not accepted by the realtors? Could other factors be involved?

You claim the woman was not a nice person. Perhaps she was bad-mouthing you.

You mentioned the Hispanic community. Did the woman speak Spanish? Does she have friends or relations in that community?

I'm not trying to bait you, Fletch. I honestly want to understand this. I'm know in some situations there is racism towards whites. My wife lived in a community that was 80% black and got a dose of it (though to be fair, she said it was pretty rare). However, I think it muddies the issue when you choose either/or and not both which, I believe, was the intent of this thread.

[snoochie]

137. What do you mean by choosing either/or and not both?

[Spiffarino]

141. The OP said "white male"

I assume that means this discussion centers not on whether or not there is discrimination against white people or against males. Rather the question is are white males "privileged" or not. Perhaps it would be easier if we just agreed on the term "whitemale" so as not to separate the issues.

Fletch points out that he believes he was a victim of racism. Fine, but I don't see how that meets the intent of the OP or the post he responded to. Until there's something that addresses the truth or falsehood of "whitemale" privilege, I think it warrants some clarification. Absent that, I don't see what it has to do with anyone being white AND male.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[Spiffarino]

216. Well, you probably are, Fletch

...but I have to say you're probably viewed by some around here as being a tad inflammatory. Still, I'm enjoying the discussion. You seem like a reasonable guy, albeit with some strong opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

:toast:

[TahitiNut]

123. I regard it as sad that the real issue isn't clearly seen.

Racism and sexism are the viruses used to divide the working class. While the white workers are warring with the black workers, they're BOTH taking lower wages to do the same work!

The crippling of entire societies by their ruling 'classes' has been done for ages by the divide-and-control approach. Keep 'em fighting among themselves and the powerful keep increasing their own power.

Emperor George isn't a racist; he and his cabal (which INCLUDES some blacks) are exploiters of racism!
Emperor George isn't a sexist; he and his cabal (which INCLUDES some females) are exploiters of sexism!

Racism and sexism recognize no racial or gender immunities!

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

174. "It's not what we don't know that hurts us; it's what we know ...

... for certain that just ain't so." (Will Rogers)

Pitiful. :eyes: (Note the use of the semicolon.)

[UdoKier]

65. Wow, that sounds like something John Stossel or Fox News'...

"Excesses of PC" Stories. Enjoy your stay...

[ultraist]

83. agree.

:nuke:

[LSdemocrat]

67. What the heck does any of that have to do with being a white male?

[ultraist]

80. Poor blacks are DOUBLE hit: RACISM AND CLASSISM

3x as many blacks proportionately are in poverty. WHY is that?

NO ONE is denying that classism exists but denying racism exists is very REPUKE like.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

107. Race has a LOT to do with it

By saying race has little to do with it, you are saying racism doesn't exist. Your statement is illogical.

Classism and racism exist and all of the socio-economic indicators prove this. Facts are facts.

Blacks are hit twice, with racism and classism.

I would say that racism is worse than classism because there are major gaps between blacks and whites and even wealthy blacks experience it.

But I wont deny there is a shift occuring whereby classism is becoming more prevelant than racism. I think eventually, classism will be more powerful.

[snoochie]

147. Does racism not hit white people?

Perhaps not in the same numbers, but it exists. The statement the OP is trying to prove false implies it does not.

[ultraist]

161. LMOA!! How many whites have been lynched or killed by other hate crimes?

With the exception of those who were victims of homomphobic hate crimes.

Sorry, but racism, sexism, classism, and homophobia do exist in our society. PLEASE do some research on this so you are well informed.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

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[snoochie]

173. You are arguing matters of degree.

Yes, minorities have faced greater hardship due to racism.

Have they been the sole sufferers of racism? Obviously not.

Why is it so hard to admit the assertion in the OP is clearly false?

[HEyHEY]

66. Try getting a job at the CBC

[LSdemocrat]

75. Canadian Broadcasting Company? or Cong. Black Caucus?

[HEyHEY]

77. Canadian Broadcasting Company

[Lautremont]

95. It's pretty snow-white in most CBC newsrooms, actually.

I know, 'cause I (a white male) work there sometimes.

[HEyHEY]

111. Not from the ones I've been to

Plus most of them would have been hired years ago. All I know is people I know working there say it's a running joke about minority hiring there.

[Lautremont]

121. You're right about the joking,

and it's not completely unwarranted. "Diversity! Diversity!" they scream. But for all that, the plants I'm familiar with (Winnipeg, Vancouver, Toronto) are whiter than a puddle of cream in a snowstorm.

[ultraist]

96. We are talking about white privilege in the US

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. The problem is really very simple.

You have the middlin 25% to 50% of American white males competing for skilled jobs against the top 5% to 30% of minority groups. Those white males aren't your best, nor your brightest, which makes their fighting techniques and tolerance levels reach gutter level. Obviously the white males in the top 25% jobs will enjoy stoking the race wars, because it only ensures keeping minorities from upward mobility.

[Orsino]

48. It's possible to be both...

...priveleged and in dire need. In America, at least, white skin guarantees one greater regard. Money can trump this, of course, but all other things being equal, whites enjoy an advantage.

Even if one is on the verge of starvation and/or homelessness, white skin earns one special sympathy.

[HEyHEY]

50. WHat kills me is how white women like to think they get off scot free

White women have done as much to repress minorities as white men.

[lastliberalintexas]

54. Ironically, many have

And I say ironically because in the professional sphere, it is becoming easier to be a man of color than a woman of any color. It seems the Good Old Boys' Club even trumps racism.

It still certainly isn't a picnic for either, though.

[begin_within]

55. White women are the real beneficiaries. I see them driving alone in SUVs,

with their hair pulled back, talking on cell phones. Their husbands work all day, and the women just drive around and do things.

[UdoKier]

73. Gotta love those generalizations!

All white women do this, all black men do that....

[HEyHEY]

More importantly "All white men are this"

[snoochie]

150. Black men gained the right to vote before women did.

Love the way that no matter where you are in the world, racism exists. In every country one group or another will discriminate against the other.

However, no matter where you go, women are getting the short end of the stick.

[ultraist]

85. LMOA!!!

[TheOriginalAmerican]

58. White women oppress minorities with white men and

black men oppress women with white men.

Black people shouldn't be let off the hook either.

For every minority you see, you'll probably see where they think they have the right to oppress another minority.

It would really help if these minorities would get together, listen to each other, and fight oppression united.

[eek MD]

61. Hmm, i don't remember opressing anyone?

n/t

[HEyHEY]

62. Oh, but you have - you see because you're white

You're automatically lumped into the other whites that are racist. Nothing you do matters, so you may as well just join the KKK you racist bastard!

See, on DU it's not okay to say "All Asians have money" or "All black people are theives." But you can say "All white people are racist and masters of oppression."

I'll explain it at our next "Organization for white domination" secret meeting.

[ultraist]

87. Privilieged does not mean you are racist

It means you are automatically granted some unearned benefits from a white dominated society due to your white skin.

I am not racist and I accept the fact that I have been privileged due to my white skin.

[HEyHEY]

88. Hey, no argument

My contention is people here seem to assume guys like me are "In on it" or something. And that's just wrong.

[ultraist]

104. No, I think you are misunderstanding the concept

Those who deny that white privilege exists and refuse to work to change it, by not supporting policies that promote equal opportunity, are complicit in promoting racism.

IMO, anyone who votes Repuke is supporting racism.

Those who may reap the benefits of having white skin, but work to eliminate racism are not complicit.

We cannot take responsibility for what someone else created, but we are responsible and to blame, if we allow it to continue.

[snoochie]

155. We can't, because one entire group has it worse than another entire group.

/sarcasm

God forbid we recognize that we need to band together as individuals, and stop the in-fighitng.

[KnowerOfLogic]

217. It's social conservatism, which is promoted by about 40%? of women

so yeah, you have women promoting these things (sadly), but it is usually less than the number of men. It probably roughly parallels the repub/dem gender gap today.

[snoochie]

152. Care to cite an example?

Seeing as how women got the right to vote after black males did, it's rather hard to see your point.

[ultraist]

158. Oh really? What white woman president allowed slavery?

Are you aware that women didn't even have the RIGHT TO VOTE until 1920? Get real!

SEXISM DOES EXIST as does RACISM, CLASSISM, AND HOMOPHOBIA.

[KnowerOfLogic]

210. Not really; i'd say it's about 60-40 w/ women usually on the right

side, but about 40% of women have always worked to oppress *women* as well as minorities, IOW, they are social conservatives. And it is *social conservatives* who always deny that they had anything to do w/ past injustices.

[eek MD]

53. Sometimes it's hard to be a white male dem on here...

Point being, if you're born into loads of money, you're "privileged".
If you're born into desperate poverty, you're "not privileged"
If you're born inbetween, it's a grey area, depending on how "much money" you were born into...

Just because someone's skin is white, and they have a penis doesn't mean that their life has been/will be easy. Someone born into wealth has an easier time than someone not born into weath, regardless of skin color/gender...Money buys the tutors, the good schools/colleges necessary to get ahead, that poor folk have to work harder for......whether white, black, male, female, etc.........just my Humble opinion..... =)

Skin color/gender may provide a few minor advantages/preferences, which we need to strive to get rid of.........however, it does NOT provide privilege.

[UdoKier]

78. I wonder how many straight males have been beaten up and called "faggot"

Back in school. But we couldn't POSSIBLY understand the plight of the gay man....

[eek MD]

86. probably millions

We need to fight the right fight........

All too often there's threads on here about who's discriminated against more..........and we all bicker about it, and vent, and flame.....

Meanwhile, the republican overlords are looking over us, and laughing at how disorganized the democratic party is.

Until we heal, and come together as a party..........and work together to fight against all discrimination (race, gender, sexual orientation), instead of just complaining that it exists (and pointing fingers at others as being the cause of it)......we're doomed as a party....

[Misunderestimator]

220. Welcome to DU, Mr. "We're doomed as a party"

People who acuse people of pointing fingers and complaining instead of doing are usually guilty of that very thing.

[eek MD]

237. Gee, what a wonderful welcome

n/t

[Misunderestimator]

219. I can't believe that you would compare gay bashing to someone mistaking

you for gay (though the example is more likely being accused of being a faggot as an insult, and not really because they believed you to be gay)... as if that could possibly compare to the lifelong and daily discrimination that some gay people face.

NO... YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND THE PLIGHT OF GAY MEN... just because someone called you a faggot once and beat you up... absolutely not. No more than a poor white man can understand the plight of a poor black man even if they are in identical financial straits.

[UdoKier]

223. Yeah, you're right.

Being beaten up as an adolescent and being called "faggot" when you're still young and confused and just learning about your sexuality is MUCH LESS painful than being beaten up for actually being gay.

I only got beat up once or twice, but I got called "faggot" all the time because I didn't play sports, and was not aggressive. So much to the point that I started to think maybe I was gay. It took a long time to figure out for sure.


But go ahead. You're gay, so that gives you carte blanche to be insensitive to MY shit, right?

[Misunderestimator]

230. YES ... being beaten as a child is awful.... it happened to me too many

times to mention... and not for being gay, just for being "weird."

But to think that you understand the plight of gay people because of a childhood trauma is naive. You cannot possibly understand ANYONE's experience when their experience is a daily thing.

So, if I was beaten up because someone thought I was black, that would qualify me to understand the plight of blacks in our society? I don't think so. Dealing with homophobia is MUCH MORE than just being called names or being beaten up. It is a daily thing, and no... you could not understand.

And your little barbs at the end of your posts... like me having carte blanche because I'm gay... weak... really weak.

[ultraist]

247. misunderestimator

I agree, well said.

[snoochie]

187. Apparently there's a special defintion of 'privileged' some people use.

It's *clearly* not one that's intuitively obvious.

[Misunderestimator]

215. It's not about having a penis and being white making your life easy...

it's saying that having a penis is an advantage, and being white is an advantage. Beyond that, sure, money is an advantage, connected family is an advantage, good health is an advantage. Being black is a disadvantage, being a woman is a disadvantage, being gay or any minority is a disadvantage, being poor is a disadvantage, being disabled is a disadvantage. Being a white male with a chip on the shoulder is hardly a comparable disadvantage.

Everyone needs to stop pretending that anyone here is saying that being a white male makes your life easy. Why the hell is it so hard to admit that it gives you an advantage? It's easy for me to see all the ways that being white has given me a leg up in my life. EASY... easy to see and easy to admit... and easy to talk about.... and really easy to hope that someday it all changes, if we're not naive enough to not discuss it.

[eek MD]

246. Incase you hadn't noticed

Which obviously you hadn't.. ...
I said that Skin color/gender may provide some advantages which we need to strive to get rid of......
You obviously think i have some kind of "chip on my shoulder" in regards to race relations which i don't have. I admit that i've had advantages because i'm a white male.........
Imho, when i hear the word "Privilege" i think of being born into trust funds, country clubs, and huge bank accounts.......Something that many people (white and black) are not born into..... Maybe it's just me that has this negative connotation of the word Privilege........

[Misunderestimator]

249. Good... glad you cleared that up.

I think in part that it was due to the misleading nature of the OP. To me, privilege IS a special sort of advantage... in fact, that's how the dictionary defines it. Using the word "privilege" in this thread however IS misleading (and intentionally so), so I understand how I misunderstood you.

In fact, your post made me realize just how misleading this entire thread really is. I hadn't looked at it that way before... interestingly divisive, in fact.

That said... Welcome to DU :) (again) :hi:

[eek MD]

251. Thankies......

=)

[TheOriginalAmerican]

57. All whites and males are privileged.

No matter how poor a white person or a male is, they will always have more respect and ability to accomplish things in life than the women and blacks in their situation of poverty.

Now, the middle and upper classes are also privileged.

White, male, and class does make up privilege. Even if one is lacking in one or both areas, they can still benefit from the area where they are the majority.

[ultraist]

63. Racism AND classism exist

Whites from lower incomes are hit with classism while blacks from lower incomes are hit with BOTH racism and classism.

Even wealthy blacks are hit with racism. Even my son, (who is African American) who is part of my upper middle class family, is hit with racism. And don't tell me he's not, because I see it frequently.

How can a white male, NOT be granted some unearned privilege in a white male dominated society? Please explain that.

If you are to say, not all white males are privileged, then you must also say that we do not live in a white male dominated society. See the logic?

[snoochie]

200. Because this society, which is mostly white, isn't homogenously white.

What is the privilege afforded to a poor white boy living in a disadvantaged, nearly all-black neighborhood?

[DaveinMD]

69. people need to stop letting them divide us

The powerful in this country has always used race to divide working class whites and blacks. If we ever got united, the powerful would be in a heap of trouble. We need to develope some class consciousness.

[QC]

89. The Right no longer has to pit the working class against each other

along racial lines, because we on the Left now do it for them. Read this thread for some excellent examples.

[DaveinMD]

91. yep

and we need to stop. It should be about class, not race.

[makhno]

148. The oblivion to class on DU is appalling

The right has waged a two-pronged attack on class consciousness, and we're seeing the sad results of their successful strategy in threads such as this one.

By first combatting Communist and Socialist influence in American unions and then simply neutralizing the unions through pro-capital labor policies, the state has removed the single biggest contributor to class consciousness among the workers. The worker identified with the union and, by extension, with union brothers and sisters regardless of their race. They were fellow union members first and foremost, sharing a common opposition to management. Even without pan-racial socialization outside of work, the consciousness of common class interests was inevitable and, linked as it were to income and survival, dominant over race and gender divisions.

The second front of the war on class consciousness was in academia, where study of Marxism was removed from the political science and economics curricula and relegated to a few seminars in the philosophy and sociology departments. The proliferation of departments focusing on cultural exceptionalism - american studies, gender studies, race studies - weakened the understanding of class struggle among progressive youth even further. One can graduate from any such program with bona fide progressive credentials without having read a word of Marx or seriously contemplated whether societal rifts are the result, rather than the cause, of existing economic inequities.

Needless to say, some of the said cultural progressives end up in leadership positions in the Democratic party, leading it to forego a class-based approach to political struggle in favor of cultural measures. Others end up posting on threads such as this one.

[QC]

183. Excellent post!

Another factor to consider is the thoroughly bouregois nature of the modern American "Left." It's only natural that people who themselves are swimming in class privilege will be oblivious to it.

[UdoKier]

236. Thank you for that.

I'm always grateful when someone more articulate then myself puts my thoughts into better words for me.

THANKS!

(Sad part is, any mention of Marx, etc. and the right-wing pundits immediately point out the thread to say "SEE! how the DUers are a bunch of COMMIES!" Amazing how thoroughly that brainwashing has taken hold in this country, even in the "left")

[Piltdown13]

72. I wish there were an "other" option

I don't think that all white males are privileged in the sense of having had an easy life just because of who they are -- that's obviously false. But, I've never thought that arguments for the existence "white privilege" or "male privilege" were ever about asserting that all whites or all white men automatically have lives of ease. To me, what white male privilege means is that, all other circumstances being equal, a white man will be slightly better off than any other "type" of individual. Now, that white man may still be in grinding poverty, but because of the (sometimes subtle) institutional racism and sexism that still exists in so much of our society, he still has a slightly better chance of his circumstances improving. I really like the way someone (mopinko?) said it above -- although white male privilege does NOT mean that all white men have it easy, it's still hard to think of any bad situation that would not be made worse by being nonwhite and/or female.

To a certain extent, when we're talking about folks whose situation is already really bad, discussions of white male privilege do become somewhat academic in nature -- if things are bad enough, the chances of being able to improve them are vanishingly small even with the slight advantage white male privilege confers. Given this, it's easy to see how discussions of white male privilege alienate people -- when you're a white male living in poverty, struggling to make it, of course it's going to piss you off to hear people seemingly implying that because you're white, you either have it great or "wasted" your privilege. And, unfortunately, there do seem to be some people who do see white privilege as some sort of guarantee, so that if you're white and poor it must be your own fault. (Obviously this is not true; as I said above, when things get bad enough, white male privilege is not going to make a difference in outcomes, and white male privilege is no protection against bad luck.) This is a really tricky thing to talk about, because on the one hand, it does us no good to alienate poor whites with talk of white male privilege, but on the other, it also does us no good to deny that it exists.

By the way, I agree that we need to resist the efforts of the monied class to drive wedges into the working and middle classes along racial lines. I think, though, that it's still important to keep these issues in mind, and address them. If we ignore the very real statistical differences in outcomes between whites and nonwhites, and men and women, we risk division among ourselves. We need to find a way to do this that doesn't involve blaming one another for our problems, and resisting the efforts of the corporatists to encourage us to do so.

[summitch]

82. HAPPY EVOLUTION DAY!

I know what you are thinking; "What's this have to do with the subject?" We new people can't start new threads until we've replied a certain number of times. So since today is Charles Darwin's birthday, I wanted to wish you "HAPPY EVOLUTION", so you could spread the good words.

Evolution Day: A day to celebrate the promise of science.

Evoution Day: A day to acknowledge our beginnings with an eye to the future.

Evolution Day: A day to commit to a better life.

Evolution Day: Because change can be progressive.

Evolve Well! It's a natural.

Mitch

[ultraist]

92. I think people misunderstand what privilege means

Privilege in the context of white privilege does not mean you are racist and it does not mean you have not experienced classism.

What it does mean is that you have some unearned advantages over your black counterparts.

It's simply illogical to say, racism exists but white privilege doesn't.

For those who deny white privilege exists, (which is saying by default racism doesn't exist), where would you be if you were black? Do you think you would have faced more obstacles if you were black?

[TahitiNut]

108. According to DU's PC Brigade ...

No white male is qualified to have a valid opinion regarding either racism or sexism in opposition to any female or any ethnic minority. It's sure tough to figure out how any white male ever survived with such appalling intellectual deficiencies that're absolutely guaranteed by virtue of his gender and race. I guess it was a kind of affirmative action, huh?

Now everyone KNOWS there's no such thing as "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism" so any female or minority possessed of such a view can't possibly benefit from self-examination, right? Of course not. These are abilities and insights absolutely inherent in their gender and race, right?

A clear and unavoidable corrolary to this is that ALL white males enjoy degrees of social and economic enfranchisement ABOVE that which they'd be afforded if they were either female or minority, right?

Therefore, NO white male deserves his lot in life - some part of it, no matter how small, was attained due to PRIVILEGE!

The solution is clear: Kill All White Male Babies!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

I'm often amazed that some mental processes can actually persist without some severe trauma resulting from such collisions.

[gollygee]

117. All white people have priviledge

So all white males are priviledged over black males, all other things being equal. A very poor white man is generally worse off than a wealthy black man, but a poor white man is better off than a poor white man, and a wealthy white man is much better off than a wealthy black man.

[IronLionZion]

119. Is this white history month or something?

why all the white male threads? :shrug:

[IronLionZion]

124. affirmative action should be income-based not race-based

and more financial aid for low-income Americans.

poverty knows no race. Go down to rural areas of West Virginia and the South and you'll see terribly impoverished white Americans who are certainly not privileged. A lot of those folks are Democrats.

[UdoKier]

218. I'm all for race being a factor in AA

And I understand that race is not the only factor in AA. It's for anyone who has suffered discrimination, not just blacks or women.

I do agree that income should be more of a factor, but I don't thing AA is really used much for the low-income jobs we're talking about here, is it?

[dsc]

125. there are degrees of privilege

To some extent all white males are privileged, in that they are better off than any other group who is in the same circumstances. Ie Poor whites have it better than poor minorities etc. The question becomes, and it is hard to quantify, at what point does the economic privilege that comes with wealth make up for the racial privilege that comes with being white? Clearly a very wealthy minority is in many ways way better off than a poor white. Somewhere there is a turning point and for different situations it is a different place but it does exist.

[Carolinian]

136. Drop the poll if you don't want to be divisive.

[UdoKier]

214. NO.

I want a MAJORITY party that makes a difference in people's lives, that helps out the least among us, ALL of them.

[Misunderestimator]

186. Since you quote people, let's see some links to those who say ALL white...

men are privileged. Somehow, though I've been reading these threads, I must have missed those posts.

You are the one making this into an issue by claiming that people here are making such a blanket and outrageous statement. You know that is not true.

It's like watching a poor persecuted straight person argue the notion that talking about the lack of rights of gays simply divides us from the straights in our society. 'Cause, face it... some straight people ARE going to blame us for their horrible marriages. And they need to be educated just as importantly as those that would argue that there is reverse racism.

You keep qualifying your inflammatory posts by saying that you do NOT defend those who cry reverse racism, but you misrepresent the majority of posters on the subject here lately by claiming that they think that ALL white men are privileged.

You keep twisting the main element of the issue, that being white in our society provides an advantage. Without other advantages added to it, of course it is not much of one. But it IS one. It's odd how you make such a point to argue against its existence, as if discussing it and discussing measures to take to educate against it was destructive by itself. Nonsense.

[UdoKier]

211. I don't have a problem with the word "advantage"

I do have a problem with "privilege". You may think it's a fine distinction, but I don't.

As for this:

"It's like watching a poor persecuted straight person argue the notion that talking about the lack of rights of gays simply divides us from the straights in our society. 'Cause, face it... some straight people ARE going to blame us for their horrible marriages. And they need to be educated just as importantly as those that would argue that there is reverse racism. "

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about at all, or how it ties into the topic at hand...

This thread is not about reverse racism. I don't believe that reverse racism is anywhere near as common as "regular" racism, so I don't see why people should be making an issue of it.

[Misunderestimator]

224. Well, let me tie it together for you then....

The analogy of a straight person arguing against gays arguing for their rights is meant to compare the white male arguing against non-white males or females talking about the disadvantage of not being white and male. We need to educate both of these groups of people, not just accept that they exist and modify our behavior to suit them. We don't need to embrace them with all their flaws under our big tent, we need to demand certain basic principles and educate those who would join us.

You made it very clear in your qualification of the thread that it was not about reverse-racism, which was necessary, since the tone of the thread certainly would lead one to believe that that was where it was going.

You're blasting people that don't even exist. Please, please, please point me to ONE post that claims that ALL WHITE MEN are privileged, and not just that being white and male affords all men a privilege. (A privilege is a "special" advantage, and I would say that being white and being male qualify as "special" advantages, whether they interpret to success or happiness is another story, but the advantage exists.)

[UdoKier]

231. Several posters have said that ALL white men are privileged.

And here's the one who said any white man who can't make it are too stupid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3075876#3077938


"Oh but we cry reverse discrimiation...Bwwaaaaaa.. That's a cop out excuse for silly ass whining white men who simply aren't smart enough to take advantage of a country run by errrr White Men!"

[Misunderestimator]

234. That quote is from a white male who is disgusted with white males

crying reverse racism. LOL that you would quote that.

All white men have a privilege because of being white and male... enough with the semantics. I know trumad, and whatever the hell YOU read into his post is YOUR business. He IS A WHITE MALE who has had it with other white males screaming reverse racism. I agree with him!! I agree that many of the men crying reverse racism are using it as an excuse for their own failures. Because REVERSE RACISM is not the cause of their failure, that's for sure.

And really now... wouldn't it be a stronger argument for you to use quotes from people who are not white males?

[UdoKier]

239. His color is immaterial.

It's offensive for ANYONE to say that the only reason any white man in this country can't make it is stupidity. There are plenty of stupid rich people, and bright poor people. It's connections, parents, inherited wealth, etc. that have kept most of the wealth and power in this country in mostly white hands, not race. The Gettys and Vanderbilts and Rockefellers are STILL fabulously wealthy today, even though they haven't done a damn thing to earn it. THAT is privilege.

[Misunderestimator]

240. You are twisting that man's words (it's not immaterial that he's white).

He did not say that... he said that white men who scream REVERSE RACISM are using that as an excuse for their own failure. Can you not read? Or do you just do this to incite argument?

[UdoKier]

242. I agree that 'reverse racism' is BS, but...

"white men who simply aren't smart enough to take advantage of a country run by errrr White Men!"


He's CLEARLY stating that the only reasons for these guys' failure is their own STUPIDITY.

They be misguided as to the real reason why, but it's not their stupidity. They're not stupid for crying about reverse racism - that's the line that the dominant media culture feeds them, so they latch onto it for lack of a scapegoat. Most of these guys probably have never even HEARD the words "oligarchy" or "plutocracy" and are unaware of the concerted effort by the power elites to KEEP poor whites and blacks poor, and at each other's throats.

[Misunderestimator]

248. You KEEP cutting out the "reverse racism" from that EXACT quote...

why are you DOING that? And why are you making more of it than what it is... a cry of frustration from a white man who is sick and tired of other white men screaming about reverse racism? To pretend that he meant it as you keep misconstruing it is misleading and you know it... you point to his quote to back up your claim that you see a lot of people claiming that all white men are privileged, but his quote says nothing of the sort.

This conversation has run its course for me.

[KnowerOfLogic]

191. As a white woman, i say of course my whiteness privileges me;

i can't believe that this is even a subject of debate. When i walk into a job interview, i am going to be viewed more favorably (on average) than say, a Native American woman (the largest minority group around here). That doesn't mean that *I* am racist, but simply that i benefit from other people's racism. To believe otherwise, one would have to believe that, on the whole, there is no racism (or sexism) in America.

[snoochie]

225. And if the interviewer in your hypothetical situation is a minority?

Do you still believe that you will be viewed more favorably?

[Swamp Rat]

193. The racial construct sucks! n/t

:)

[UdoKier]

226. DANG! I just noticed I misspelled the thread title.

That sucks when you notice it way past the edit window, especially on a thread that has been bouncing up and down all day...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

244. Given similar economic levels

the white man will have the added advantage of not being considered an automatic criminal suspect in an unfamiliar neighborhood.

Otherwise, I think working class men of all races have it tough.

[Moderator]

253. Locking......

This thread has has gone on long
enough and the conversation is
going around in a circle.



DU Moderator