I'm thinking of scoping out an Assembly of God Church.

[yebrent]

I grew up Catholic but abandoned my Catholic faith a while back. It took a while, but eventually I grew a new animistic faith. A faith similar to indigenous peoples around the world who are still practicing their original faith. A faith that is supported by science and logic and not in conflict with it.

The faith I speak of is generally the following: The world was not made for man to either rule over or be stewards of. Humans life evolved from the Community of Life. We are part of the Community of Life and the Universe as a whole. Our most serious problems stem from the widespread illusion of humans as something separate from the Community of Life and the Universe. We are part of it all and in being part of it all, we can never understand it all objectively, including the determination of whether there is a God, gods, or no higher power with a direct effect on our lives.

Anyway, spirituality has always been of interest to me. I believe faith, spirituality and religion will the the battle ground of the next century. Some progressives advocate the elimination of all religion and dismiss spiritual people as out of touch. I however believe that religion can be an agent of change (either good or bad). If our global culture is going to evolve to become a sustainable and relatively peaceful culture, then religion and spirituality will have to lead the way. Or at least play a significant role.

Religions change all the time, including Christianity. It can change again. For example, up until the Protestant Reformation, Christians believed that the Church was the mediator of human's relationship with "God". The Pope, bishops and priests had the direct line with "God" and the kings, nobles and peasants had to go work through the Church. This is what gave the Pope and the Church so much power though the centuries. Kings required being coroneted by the Pope. The Church had to sign off on almost all political maneuvers. The Protestant Reformation that grew out of the Enlightenment changed everything. From it, people began to define their own relationships with "God". From that, the Catholic Church lost power and to this day continues to lose power and as direct personal relationships with "God" grow.

I'm ready for a major change to organized religion again. Instead of shying away and dismissing the growing block of US citizens outright, I am advocating involvement and understanding. There is no other way to do this without direct engagement. For me, the next step will be visiting an Assembly of God Church here in Northern California. I've never been to a non-Catholic Christian service, so this will be an entirely new experience for me. I am wondering if anyone else has been curious enough about this growing giant among us (evangelical movement), and has taken the steps to actually visit one? Is there anyone else who is working on engaging (either subtly or aggressively) the evangelical movement? Any websites your can recommend where I might be able to hook up with people doing this difficult work?

Thanks in advance,

[BOHICA06]

1. Let's just say ...

the service will be more free form that you have seen before and the message will be that the Bible is the unerring word of God and most will believe that God spoke in 16th Century English - (i.e. directly to the King James writing crew).

Caution: may involve fainting, swooning, and Spirit possession.

Caution 2: watch out for that altar call!

[shadowknows69]

29. been there too

I liked the mystical elements of it althought they can be quite shocking. The church I was at had a lot, emphasize a lot of people speaking in toungues. They are pretty extreme fundalmentalists all told though. My alienation started when they started spewing rhetoric like we shouldn't frequent bowling alleys because alcohol was served there. They convinced me I should burn a lot of my classic rock albums too due to satanic influences. Simon and Garfunkle could even damn your soul beleive it or not. Not saying I didn't learn a lot too but If you're looking for a more open minded church I wouldn't recomend it.

[kick-ass-bob]

2. There is a very wide range of what an Assembly of God church

may give you. Some are going to be more progressive, but some are going to openly mock homosexuals during the service.

We ended up going to a Unity Church instead...

[Maraya1969]

3. DON'T DO IT

FOR GOD'S SAKE SAVE YOURSELF MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!


But if you must at least wear protective clothing. :tinfoilhat:

[Fridays Child]

4. So, why Assembly of God?

[eallen]

5. Science can support faith in the same way arithmetic supports numerology.

Sorry, but science has nothing to do with faith. If you try hard, you might keep your faith from overtly conflicting with science. That's the best relationship you get. Everything else is fanciful, including the homilies that preachers of many religions like to draw from science.

[yebrent]

20. There is more than one faith.

There is faith in spite of reasoning and experience, which most people are familiar with when they think of the word, "Faith" (big F)

and there is faith (little f) supported by reasoning and experience.


Science is for the most part a few Laws and lots and lots of theories. Theories become stronger and stronger over time when more and more evidence becomes available supporting those theories. However, believing in theories still requires a bit of faith (little f). A faith supported by experience and reasoning.

I have a very strong faith that humans evolved from the Community of Life and we are still profoundly connected to the Community of Life. Over the years I have encountered a ton of evidence supporting this theory. However, it cannot be proved 100%. Humans being part of the system can never objectively understand the whole system. Or as I like to say, "You can not measure the outside of a box from the inside." It requires some faith, no matter how little.

[eallen]

34. Your analysis is right, but I think it misses something important.

Many times in the battles between faith and reason, I have seen the religious point out exactly what you do, that scientific theories are not and cannot be proven, that it takes faith to believe in them also, and that therefore their own kind of faith is just as "reasonable." What they miss is that those of us without faith don't believe in science in the same way they believe in their faith. We don't believe in anything in the same way that they believe.

Let's stick with the example of evolution. What's valuable there, as far as someone without faith cares, is just the "experience and reasoning," i.e., the myriad data from biology, chemistry, and paleontology, the theories (yes, multiple) about that data, and the analyses that show fit or mismatch. "Believing in" some choice of those theories isn't important. Not even that one of the ones so far proposed will prove right, because as you so well stated, no scientific theory ever is proven right! Understanding where they work and where they don't, how they compare, where they have holes that need filling, where they suggest interesting research yet to be done -- that is science. If that leads to some new theory sweeping out the old, that's not just fine, but not even a challenge to belief, because without even the modest leap of faith you suggest, there simply isn't that kind of belief.

It's simply a different mindset from those who talk about faith. It's not the subject matter. Some people do have faith in some choice of scientific theories. They believe in evolution or in quantum mechanics the way someone else might believe in the Catholic god. That kind of belief has nothing to do with the science, but is simply something laid on top of it.

[yebrent]

42. I agree with your analysis.

Except with all the talk in the Democratic Party lately about framing, I really wish that people who didn't align themselves with the Christian Faith wouldn't be labeled as, "Without faith". I don't believe what they believe, but I know I have faith.

I spent my childhood and adolescence questioning my Catholic faith until after lots of reading, searching, etc. it was gone.

I spent several years distinctly without much faith of any kind. I don't know how people live that way for a long period of time. It was horrible IMO.

Over time I cemented a new faith built on experience and reasoning. It is an animistic faith and I can't imagine ever wavering. It gives me strength and energy that was sorely lacking during my period of being without faith.

I like what you said about, "We don't believe in anything in the same way that they believe." I don't think we even understand their motivations or fears very well.

I live in Oakland and attend a lot of scientific lectures in SF. David Suzuki, Jarred Diamond, Richard Dawkins, Pawl Hawking, Wendel Berry (tomorrow night) among them. And invariably during the Q&A, several questions about creationists come up. And the dismissive and arrogant tone of the questioners and lecturers themselves always surprises me. There is ZERO empathy for these people. Of course they view us as their enemy even if they are voting against their own self interest. We belittle them every chance we get.

I am searching for a new approach without giving away the store.

[melv]

6. why have you posted this twice now?

same post, 2nd time I've seen it.


on edit: hmmm can't find the other post now.

[yebrent]

7. I didn't. It all disappeared.

I suddenly don't feel very welcome here anymore. DU's loss. I thought this would be a good place for intelligent and thoughtful discussion and deep issues facing our culture and Country. I guess not. Just another echo chamber it seems.

[Rebel_blogger]

17. Don't listen to the cynics ...

You'll find good people in any church you go to. You'll also find people who are hypocritical. I urge you to seek a church that you feel comfortable in. If you're seeking a faith, you'll find people who will help with that. If you don't find it at the first church you visit, go to another, but don't give up. I grew up as a Southern Baptist and converted to Catholicism. It's a long story, but I feel it was the best one for me. I was confirmed at a Benedictine monastery. They're all about spirituality and finding common ground with other people of faith.

Continue to question what people tell you, but be open opinions. That's what this forum is supposed to be, open to differing view points.

Good luck

[yebrent]

23. Thank you, but I'm not looking for a new faith.

Just looking to change the world through the evolution of religion is all. Not a small task I know.

[Rebel_blogger]

25. And you feel they need to be changed? Evolved?

You'll have to excuse me, but that's not really your place. Why do people of faith threaten you in such a way that you feel you need to "evolve them"? Don't we get outraged when pro-lifers feel the need to show people who are pro-choice the error of their ways?

[yebrent]

30. because the illusion of separateness is at the core of...

...the world's major problems. The illusion of separateness from the Community of Life. "Man was made in God's image to rule all the plants and animals" is a core belief of at least three of the world's major religions. They share the same books for Christ's sake.

Doesn't anyone find it peculiar that most of the world is dominated by one culture that stems from the middle east? In its path of conquest in destroyed or forcibly converted (often by stealing children) about 10,000 unique cultures around the world. Its in all the history books. This cultures dominance of our Continent (and the one below us) began in 1492.

The people conquered, destroyed or forcibly converted did not believe that "Man was made in God's image to rule all the plants and animals". They universally believed something quite different. That humans are part of the Sacred Community of Life, not rulers or stewards over it. It is no surprise that in these cultures, long term sustainability of resources was not an issues. And warfare was far less frequent than in our culture and was primarily do to competition over temporary shortages of renewable resources. However when resources were abundant war was non existent and trade flourished.

[foo_bar]

74. 10,000 unique cultures believed that?

They universally believed something quite different. That humans are part of the Sacred Community of Life, not rulers or stewards over it.

Most human cultures elevated humanity to a revered position: every kitchen god, sun god, municipal deity worked to assist or antagonize human beings, here on this presumably flat world at the center of everything. I don't think your egalitarian tribal vision has ever existed on a larger basis than a tribe, much like democracy.

[yebrent]

91. Now were getting into meme theory.

As you may know, memes are to cultures as genes are to organisms. Memes can be any ideas, stories, parables, "truths", etc. The combination of a culture's memes effects the social structure, ongoing evolution and ultimately the sustainability of that culture.

I misspoke (for simplicity sake) that the meme you highlighted was "universally believed" by 10,000 unique cultures. In fact, from time to time a culture would rise up and create a civilization built squarely on the shoulders of the meme that the earth and all living things are to be ruled over by humans. This occurred usually at a time of abundant resources. The Maya, Aztec, Inca, Olmec are good examples. However, when the civilizations became overpopulated, resources scarce, and the social structure increasingly unjust, these civilizations collapsed back into less hierarchical tribal structures and abandoned the meme of dominance.

Our current global civilization does carry this same meme of dominance over all life forms, sometimes called the meme of "knowledge of good and evil with regards to all living things". However, it is more of a subset of a far more dangerous meme that threatens all of human existence. They Maya, Aztec, Inca and Olmec did not threaten all of human existence as our current global culture now does.

There are actually three memes in our current global culture that when combined are gravely endangering the long term sustainability of humans on this planet. They are the following:

1. There is only one way for humans to live, and we know what that way is. Within this meme falls the meme of dominance or stewardship over all living things.

2. Everyone in the world should live our way.

3. We shall not give up our way no matter what dangers are perceived to result from it. For many, it is a divinely inspired way to live. "In God's image" if you will.

Ancient world civilizations did not have all three of these memes. One culture in the middle east approximately 10,000 years ago during the start of the time of the agricultural revolution somehow came to possess all three of these memes. With these memes as the fundamental basis of their civilization, they grew by force and dominance to encompass the entire world. Most people think that the most basic divide of human culture is the Eastern Civilization and Western Civilization divide. IMO, they are all one culture. If they weren't modern globalization wouldn't be as easy and accepted as it is.

There is a greater divide. What Daniel Quinn describes as the divide between what he labeled as "Taker" and "Leaver" cultures (He felt modern civilized people and "savages" were terms with too much baggage). A little over 500 years ago, all of the Americas and Australia was occupied by Leaver cultures. A short time before that, all of Africa was Leaver. About 4000 years ago, all of Europe was Leaver. And about 10,000 years ago, all the world was Leaver.

Modern humans as biologically intelligent as any of us have been on this planet at least 200,000 years. What do you think they were doing for the first 190,000, picking their butt? No, they were living in balance with the earth as harmless as a bird, bear, shark or whale. They weren't destroying the habitat they depended on for their long term survival.

Sorry to simplify this so much. These ideas usually fill books, not a few paragraphs.

[yebrent]

31. oh and I don't get outraged by anti-choice people talking.

Now if they try to force something on women I care about, then I would be outraged. But talking never outrages me.

[yebrent]

8. I sent DU an email.

[eallen]

11. Don't be too quick to blame the mods -- I suspect a database hiccup.

Sometimes this board does strange things. When someone gets tombstoned, that behavior is pretty predictable. What happened to this thread seems more one of those cyberspace potholes.

Of course, it might be Loki. :evilgrin:

[Blue_In_AK]

28. Everything I posted in this thread is gone...

Was it because I said St. Paul was a misogynistic asshole?? I guess He didn't like my characterization. LOL.

[yebrent]

32. Or my reply in agreement.

I'll say it again. No one in history co-oped a message more effectively and destructively than Paul. He took a beautiful message and turned it to shit.

[Blue_In_AK]

35. Thank you very much

This has been bugging me for about 40 years now. I think it's very telling that the Fundies seem to rely much more on Paul's letters than they do on the actual gospel.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yebrent]

10. I guess there was a problem of lost data

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. What are you talking about?

You asked for our opinion of the Assemblies of God, and we gave our evaluation of the denomination with reference to your own stated values.

:shrug:

[yebrent]

13. I'm talking about the 40 posts missing

I don't have the energy to retype my ten or so lenghtly responses to posts that no longer exist.

[yebrent]

14. We lost about two hours of data in the General Discussion forum.

"We had a glitch this afternoon, and lost about two hours of data from the General Discussion forum. It appears that all messages posted between 03:43 PM and 05:37 PM in the General Discussion forum are gone.

We are working to figure out what may have caused the problem. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The DU Administrators"

[seventythree]

thanks

I am fairly new so was taken aback that all my posts were gone even when my folder said I had a response. I don't come to "general" too often, and probably won't much after this, either.

[Rebel_blogger]

18. Have you actually BEEN to an Assemblies of God church...

Linda Leftcoast? Or are you repeating what you've been "told" by someone?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. I've seen their services on TV

on one of the local access stations.

[More Than A Feeling]

15. My cousin is an Assembly of God pastor

He believes that the Bible is inerrant, with all that entails. He's got the whole "homosexuality is a sin" thing going for him.

Something to consider.

[yebrent]

16. Not looking to convert. Looking to understand and subvert.

A larger percentage of people will always be sheep. They need new shepherds.

[Rebel_blogger]

19. Subvert?

Is your purpose to go there to cause others to question or are you there to learn about their faith?

[yebrent]

24. Learn about their faith inside and out. Understand them more...

...deeply then they understand themselves. Stumble onto an unconventional way to help these evangelical churches evolve to be a positive force for change instead of such a negative one. Get my hands dirty instead of dismissing this growing movement outright.

Reason hasn't worked with these people. We're missing something and I aim to figure out what it is.

[Rebel_blogger]

26. Hmmm, I guess my question is ...

what makes you sure you have the right answer to "enlighten" the Assemblies of God? And, by the way, I doubt seriously that you'll be able to "understand them more deeply than they understand themselves". You might be convinced of that, but to truly understand a faith, you need to possess it.

[yebrent]

37. You might be right, but I'm tired of the outright dismissal of them.

I don't know if I have the answer or will find one, but I have to try. I get the impression that very few people are trying. And empathy is one of my stronger traits.

Oh, and I'm not sure if enlightening them is the key. That has been tried since...well...the Enlightenment. I'm getting more and more convinced that it will be something quite UNreasonable than unlocks this door.

[Rebel_blogger]

44. Well, I have to respect your convictions ...

I don't entirely agree with your purpose, but your realization that that people of faith are too easily dismissed is admirable. In your journey, I urge you to visit a Benedictine monastery. I've found more spiritually and acceptance there than anywhere else.

[yebrent]

46. The Jesuits are very accepting as well.

I went to a Jesuit high school.

I'm not sure how admirable it is, but thanks.

A General (who would be an excellent President BTW) once said, "The right job for you is where the world's deepest need meets your heart's greatest gladness"

I'm just taking his advice. Spirituality has always been of deep interest in my life both personally and intellectually. I've been on both sides of the fence and went through a traumatic process of climbing that fence. I know I have a lot to offer on this front.

[Mz Pip]

21. Question

Why the Assembly of God Church? These evangelical churches seem pretty far removed from your currently described belief system. If you're really looking for some spriritual community in concert with what you describe check out the Unitarian Church. Any religion that takes the bible literally is not a "faith that is supported by science and logic."

I spent years in the Catholic Church but left because I couldn't accept the dogma. I know I couldn't deal with the evangelical movement for pretty much the same reason.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[yebrent]

27. I know plenty of fellow animists. I'm not looking for community.

Positive change grows out of some of the least expected places. Christianity has evolved many times in the past to reflect the changing culture. It has at times followed and at times led cultural change. It must be part of any major cultural shift in America.

The evangelical system is designed to resist reason and only grows with each dismissal. We need to find another way. I've read lots of Christian material, and am making my first field visit to the Assembly of God Church next Sunday. I'm just wondering if anyone know of anyone else looking outside the box at this group?

The "What Would Jesus Do?" movement is an example of outside the box thinking that directly challenges most of these evangelical movements. The hate they preach is not what Jesus would do and the WWJD movement is using Christianity not running away from it. It provides the sheep another option that is easy for them to swallow.

I'm not a big fan of the earth stewardship movement though. The earth doesn't need stewards. It needs us to abandon the illusion of separateness and once again fully join the Community of Life. Were not stewards of the Community of Life nor are we rulers. We are participants.

[CBGLuthier]

22. My Grandmother was a Holy Roller

Pentecostal to the core.

Freaked me out when I was young to wake up in the pew I had fallen asleep in to see my Grandmother shaking and speaking in tongues.

I imagine some of them may not be into that stuff. At least hers didn't pull out the snakes.

[Vadem]

33. The Assembly of God Churches, I believe, are the HolyRollers....

you know, snake handlers, speaking in tongues, rolling around on the floor in religious ecstacy.....if that is what you want, oh well...

[Blue_In_AK]

36. Also Pentecostal...

...which I think is a different denomination, but similar beliefs.

ed. I'm sorry, NotMyPresident, I didn't see your post.

[yebrent]

38. They are the ones I understand the least, so yes...

...they are the first ones I want to visit in person. To understand them, which of course is not even close to the same thing as agreement.

[cornermouse]

94. No. They don't handle snakes in the Assembly of God

church.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Why would you want to join Ashcroft's church? Why not Episcopalian?

Why register here and then ask us who you have only known for 5 days our opinion about one of the most right wing fundamentalist churches in America?

Do they serve Lo Carb Hotdogs there?

[yebrent]

40. Why don't you read my responses to the other posts on this thread?

Why do you assume so much?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. I did

[yebrent]

45. Well, if you did actually read my post and other responses...

...then you might have noticed that I'm looking for people, groups, movements, etc, that are working in out of the box ways to engage the evangelical movement in attempt to either stop their growth or help them evolve into something that isn't so destructive to our culture and Country.

Gee, I don't know why I thought that people in the "Democratic Underground" might be able to help point me to others working on this problem?

[WyLoochka]

70. You will learn

that there is absolutely NO WAY you could ever possibly alter the AOG's crusade to destroy 230 years of evolving democracy in this country. They loathe democracy.

They will view you as a captive of "the evil one" out to undermine "God's will," no matter what you say or do, unless you say the Jesus save me prayer and start wailing, flailing and flopping around like a gawd damn fool.

In other words, you'll have to fake it for them to even be courteous to you after awhile. They'll give you a few weeks to several months to act out your "spiritual gifts." They will be working on brainwashing you the entire time you are trying, simultaneously, to work on their brains. You will learn their brains, having been Biblically lobotomized, are impervious to any and all reason or illumination from any other source than what their pastors and teachers alone say.

If you fail to capitulate after some time, they'll conclude you are lost to Satan himself and start avoiding conversation with you and maybe even kick you out eventually (unless you donate big bucks, and then they'd tolerate your attendance indefinitely - but they'd still regard you as ensnared by the "evil one," if you fail to demonstrate those "spiritual gifts" by babbling publically in tongues at least once in awhile).

This country has suffered through two previous waves of fundies trying to alter our culture, laws and constitution. It was public scorn and ridicule that shut them up and drove them away from trying to control the common sphere and back into their enclaves.

Generous doses of public scorn and ridicule is the medicine to use again, so they will again learn to keep their preaching to their own churches and Sunday Schools where it belongs.

And "we won't have to listen to those fundamentalist preachers anymore." Thank you Howard Dean.

[youthere]

43. Here's what I know about AOG...

1. It is a pentecostal fundamentalist denomination.
2. They believe in the innerancy of Scripture and the direct literal interpretation of Scripture (in other words, camels have cloven hooves, and rabbits chew their cud and there is no such thing as evolution in any way shape or form)
3. To become "born again" you must complete two steps a.) accept Christ and be baptised by immersion and b.) be "baptised" in the holy spirit (speak in tongues) and until you have done both you are not considered to be fully "saved"
4. They practice isolation.They do not embrace a "God of all Creation". Instead they draw very clear lines between what is Christian and what is secular. The secular is to be avoided at all costs because it corrupts and opens you to satanic attacks.
5. No social dancing
6. No alcohol
7. Pro-Life-no abortion period. Not in rape, not in incest, not in peril.
8. They encourage their members to practice a "pure thought life"
9. Homosexuality is a sin and it is chosen behavior clearly hated by God.
10. Fundamental Christianity is absolute truth. There is to be no tolerance for Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism..etc. To be open and tolerant of other faith beliefs is corrupt and opens you to satanic attacks.
11. They oppose dating or marrying unbelievers...they define unbelievers as others who are not AOG
12. Any counseling or psychology that one should require should come from within the church. Secular intervention is discouraged because all true healing comes from God.
13. They oppose friendships with those who are not in assemblies of God. To cultivate such relationships opens you to corruption and satanic attacks.
14. The husband is the head of the household and the wife is to be submissive to him.
15. Abuse is sketchy. It seems that it is okay for a husband to hit his wife/kids...as long as he doesn't hit them too hard or too often.AOG does not approve of "extreme" abuse. If it involves church members it is to be told only to the pastor (it is a sin to gossip). If the abuse involves those outside the church then it may be reported to the civil authorites.
16.No alchohol tobacco or drugs (obviously)

Check out this site...it may be more helpful.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/index.cfm

The best AOG are as described above. The worst are well..nightmarish, cultish. I respect your spiritual drive, and it's not up to me to tell you not to mess with AOG (or indeed ANY pentecostal church) but that's a decision you need to make for yourself. Good Luck, and if you proceed, please be cautious.

[yebrent]

53. Thanks for the info and the link

I've seen the 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assembly of God before. It is quite the list. I've read most of the New Testament (for research purposes) and I have no idea where they come up with some of this. Especially #s 13-16. Amazing what scary stuff is out there.

1. WE BELIEVE...The Scriptures are Inspired by God and declare His design and plan for mankind.

2. WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God – revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

3. WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.

4. WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin – ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

5. WE BELIEVE...Every Person Can Have Restored Fellowship with God Through 'Salvation' (accepting Christ's offer of forgiveness for sin). <1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G>

6. WE BELIEVE...and practice two ordinances—(1) Water Baptism by Immersion after repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation, and (2) Holy Communion (the Lord's Supper) as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and death for our salvation.

7. WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. <1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G>

8. WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.

9. WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike.

10. WE BELIEVE...The Church has a Mission to seek and save all who are lost in sin. We believe 'the Church' is the Body of Christ and consists of the people who, throughout time, have accepted God's offer of redemption (regardless of religious denomination) through the sacrificial death of His son Jesus Christ.

11. WE BELIEVE...A Divinely Called and Scripturally Ordained Leadership Ministry Serves the Church. The Bible teaches that each of us under leadership must commit ourselves to reach others for Christ, to worship Him with other believers, and to build up or edify the body of believers–the Church.

12. WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins). <1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G>

13. WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. <1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G>

14. WE BELIEVE...in The Millennial Reign of Christ when Jesus returns with His saints at His second coming and begins His benevolent rule over earth for 1,000 years. At that time many in the nation of Israel will recognize and accept Him as the Messiah, the Savior who died for them and all mankind.

15. WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.

16. WE BELIEVE...and look forward to the perfect New Heavens and a New Earth that Christ is preparing for all people, of all time, who have accepted Him. We will live and dwell with Him there forever following His millennial reign on Earth. 'And so shall we forever be with the Lord!'

[youthere]

56. The biggest thing is

that they really know (and distort) Scripture passages. That's big in the AOG/pentecostal churches. They don't need to know a correct interpretation of it, so long as they can regurgitate it on demand. If you know your bible and true interpretation, along with solid history you can usually go head to head with them and do pretty well. You'll know that you hit the soft spot with them when they tell you the fundie frustrated witness trifecta: "I'll be praying for you." and "Well Jesus loves you even if you don't accept Him" and if they start quoting Revelation and make reference to "the book of the Lamb".

[yebrent]

65. "That is a question of faith"

Is how my priests in high school would respond when they were at the end of their rope from my questions.

[youthere]

47. Just one more thing...

The AOG (and the hardcore pentecostals) seem to acheive their success by appealing to emotion as opposed to logic. If you've ever attended a charismatic evangelical service...it's pretty obvious. These followers don't care about what they know when they leave worship, only what they feel. The church takes absolute advantage of this and deliberately criticises "educated people". (They don't even believe in seminary preparation for ministers..its all internal.) By praying on the emotion they can whip the congregants into a frenzy of fear, joy, anger whatever is required to manipulate them at that particular moment.

[yebrent]

48. Yes I'm quite aware.

In my youth I attended a 3-day Catholic retreat. It was a total emotion fest nothing like I ever experienced or thought was possible inside the modern Catholic Church. Sleep deprivation, emotional letters from loved ones read in front of the entire group. Hug sessions. Etc. They then use that emotion as proof of their God and to drill their beliefs into your skull. I was young and the effect only lasted a couple of days on me, but I will remember what they did to me for the rest of my life. I liken it to the brainwashing techniques used by the military and fraternities during hazing.

They break you down physically, mentally and emotionally until you are drained.

They then attempt to fill you up with what they want you to believe and do.

This Jedi is no weak minded fool.

[youthere]

49. Then this won't

be anything new for you. It is very similar to the brainwashing techniques you described above. Try the website. It's all their core beliefs and public position papers. I have a friend wrapped up into this AOG crap. She has been for years. Slowly she is starting to "question" certain things so of course they have been praying for and annointing the hell out of her (no pun intended.) I can tell you also that the "shelf life" on your average new AIG/pentecostal is about 5-7 years. That's when they reach their apex, begin to questions and ultimately leave the church. Not all of them mind you, but a good majority. That's why witnessing is so important...gotta manage the rollover.

[seventythree]

54. good analysis

Our poster wishes to find out what makes them tick, and you have hit on what I have seen in all right wing "faiths." It's all emotion driven so it appeals to those who are not educated -- in fact, I know of no one who attends these churches who is educated. I see this in friends who lack a college education, too -- all of life is emotionally based -- they seem unable to "think" through difficulties in a relationship, for example. More and more I withdraw from them, as any guidance I might offer is met with anger. They are often self centered, at least the younger ones are, imo. Our poster had a "brainwashing" experience in the Catholic church, but in my experience, many educated folks find solace there, so it may have been an anomaly. The only way you are going to get to those who live life in their gut, is through their gut -- not their mind. They are fraught with fear, and right wing religion gives them a road map to salvation, and peace in the belief that if they follow the road map, all will be well. I have them in my family, and am not sure it is a kindness to shake them from their beliefs.

[yebrent]

59. I'll keep this short.

I got a Wes Clark meet-up to get to.

I know lack of education and fear drives them. However, I'm not sure if many of them have been offered a less destructive alternative to the feeling they get though their faith. I don't think one has been clearly established either. They read "The Left Behind" series, but truly I believe it is they who have been left behind by modern civilization. It isn't always their fault either.

I don't think it would be very kind to shake them from their beliefs either without providing something as equally comforting, yet less destructive.

Regarding the Catholic brainwashing. Yea it is a bit of an anomaly. They keep it pretty quiet and it happens towards the end of high school. It is called a Kairos retreat. It probably only happens at certain Catholic high schools. It is their one attempt at finding priests when teens are at their most vulnerable with respect to making life decisions. I think a few from my class took the bait.

[youthere]

61. I think you hit on an important point...

fundies tend to be people who seek easy answers. My experience with them has been that they tend to be "black and white" people...I'm not referring to race..I'm referring to outlook. They tend to be overreactive and easily panicked. I have noticed that they tend to be shallow and emotional and they also seem to be slightly obsessive people (you know, the "all or nothing types". It's not my goal to tear them apart. They are people struggling with finding meaning and purpose in their life and quite honestly mainline protestantism and catholisism has failed these people. Instead of reaching out to these people where they are at they are given lofty theology and dogma, so it's easy to see why the right wing charismatics appeal to them. They make easy prey for AOG/pentecostal ideology.

[readmoreoften]

66. very insightful post

I have also heard the deliberate appeals to the educated: 'I feel sorry for those intellectuals who can't feel the love of god'.

However, while it may not be a kindness to shake them from their beliefs, as a queer I hope someone kindly shakes them before they harm me or someone dear to me.

[seventythree]

79. agreed

[Trajan]

50. I grew up Catholic ....

Then ditched theistic belief for .... whatever is real .... no matter WHAT that might be ....

[youthere]

51. Whatever is real...

isn't that the crux of PostModernism?

[Trajan]

52. Show me your 'real' god ....

Then I'll believe .....

Pessimism: The crux of post-been-lied-to-so-many-times-by-people-just-like-you-ism ....

[yebrent]

55. What is "real" in your opinion?

What do you believe?

[ultraist]

58. I would suggest approaching this from a sociological perspective

Read up on some sociological and anthropological research on cults and religion as well as mythology. Have you looked at characteristics of cults?

Studying the history of religions from a secular viewpoint may offer some insights.

[Donailin]

57. The Body of Christ

isn't necessarily organized. Speaking as a baptized at birth Roman Catholic who has left the church (except I still occasion the confessional) I feel that St. Francis had it right when he said "Preach the Gospel daily, use words when necessary" I don't need a community of fellow likeminded people to instrumentalize my faith, only one or two is sufficient, but rather, connecting with people no matter what they are, jew, greek, pagan, whatever.

[ultraist]

60. That's what Jesus said!

It's not neccessary to go into a church to worship. In other words, one doesn't need organized religion to practice their faith.

Organized religion is the work of man.

[Geek_Girl]

62. I'm a non practicing Catholic

and have recently discovered the Unitarian Church and Christ Unity. They are both progressive and liberal. But I especially enjoyed the spirituality of Christ Unity and the social message of the Unitarian church. I'm kind of up in the air on which one I might join.

[borlis]

63. My freeper cousin and his witchy wife belong

They are total hypocrites. I have never gone, but my aunt (who is very religious) went and even she was creeped out by it. She did say that they were speaking in tongues. My cousin does this also. I don't even know exactly what it is. My cousin and his wife were both raised in Lutheran/Protestant churches, so I don't know how they ever got where they are now. I think I heard my aunt say that their church teaches them that they are actually just one step below the heavens, but above everyone else. My cousin actually told his father (who wasn't a regular church goer) that he didn't think he would go to heaven when he died. They did not let their kids trick-or-treat. When other kids rang their doorbell on Halloween, they said "We don't have any candy for you." They are such hypocrites though. My cousin will come and play poker with my dad and his high school buddies every couple of months!! Like gambling is OK??? :puke:

[mordarlar]

67. I grew up attending Assem. of God churches Can i make a suggestion

that you try United Church of Christ. Assemblies of God Churches in my exp tend to be more closed minded. Right before the election i visited at a friends request. Listened to an hr sermon about how bush is God's chosen and Kerry is advocating permissible sin. Not fun. I left early. United Church of Christ in my exp advocates true separation of church and state freedom of speech, and these things while being completely Christian in it's doctrine. It is a liberal Christian church. They got in trouble for an ad recently. The showed a church with a nightclub type Queue line. The church bodyguard was picking and choosing who it would allow in. Other churches had a FIT. Just a suggestion. : )

[yebrent]

68. Thanks for the info, but I'm not looking for a church to join.

This seems to be a common misconception from my post. Please see some of my other replies for more details.

[mordarlar]

69. It you are just looking to "scope out" then yes that is a church

you might want to attend. I did misunderstand. I myself have visited Baptist, Catholic, Unitarian, Southern Baptist, Church of God, United Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Vineyard, Friends (quaker) Methodist, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal... among some others.

I have not been a member of a church in over 12 yrs. I am of Christian faith but i believe there is wisdom to be learned from all faiths. Most of my learning of non Christian faiths is learned from reading and the net. I have read the Qur'an, parts of the Torah, books on Buddhism ( my favorites are the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet );-) I have read writings online about the prophesies of the Hopi and the Sioux. I have read and discussed paganism and Wicca with friends who practice these religions.

There are some striking similarities in some of the faiths i have looked into. The human desire seeking faith tends to be similar in it's design no matter where it leads.



Sorry for the ramble. And sorry i originally misunderstood.


:-)

[JoMama49]

81. You might also try the Unity Center churches --

they are non-denominational and new age. I belonged to the one in Walnut Creek for a while. I know there's also one in Sacramento and Santa Rosa. Email me privately, and I'll tell you more about them.

[noonwitch]

71. It's been a long time since I went to an evangelical church, but

The Assmeblies of God churches have some positive activites. Many are large churches that have excellent choirs that sing contemporary music. Some even have orchestras/large bands to support the vocal music. Most have community outreach to the poor, that members and those who attend services can participate in to help give food and clothing to those in need. They usually have serious Bible study and family activities.

However, you should know that the following applies to that denomination:

1. Most services have members of the congregation speaking in tongues. If you have never witnessed this type of thing before, it can be scary. They get "baptized in the holy spirit".
2. The church most likely will condemn homosexuality, and do so in brutal terminology.
3. They believe that everyone but them is going to hell.

If you want an evangelical church that doesn't condemn liberals/gays/etc., I don't really know of one. If you want a traditional christian church that reflects liberal values, I'd agree with the person who posted about the United Church of Christ. If you live in a big city, there are probably several. If you live in Chicago, I highly recommend Trinity UCC, a mostly african american church, and a great one at that.

I'm a member of a Unity church. We are not really traditional christian teaching, we are more of a new age/metaphysical denomination. I grew up attending a UCC church, however, and it was a primary influence in my upbringing.

[Bridget Burke]

73. The OP is not interested in a church for himself.

He's searching out weird tribal behavior among his inferiors--it will make for some amusing stories, once he's back in civilization.

I'm as concerned as any about the increasing influence of some "Christians" over our government. But most complaining about the Assembly of God here are appalled at their behavior during worship. Weren't African-American religious practices incorporated into Assembly of God practices, back at the beginning? Is lack of restraint during worship going to hurt Democracy?

Charismatics are found in many denominations--even Roman Catholic. And the Dominionists mistrust the movement because of its ecumenicism.

The homophobia you describe is troubling. But speaking in tongues is not.

[DemBones DemBones]

75. Exactly. Speaking in tongues isn't inherently evil or

harmful to our society. I'm a lot more concerned about wealthy Dominionists and "Reverend" Moon and their influence on our government than I am about the worship practices of charismatic Christians, even those who handle snakes. African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans often favor charismatic worship and it obviously can be a positive spiritual experience for many. The poster himself was influenced by a charismatic Catholic retreat when he was a teen, though he quickly rejected the experience.

[yebrent]

76. I am not "searching out weird tribal behavior among his inferiors"

but thanks for playing.

[amazona]

78. actually he'll get eaten alive

The fantasy that one can just "pretend" to believe in evangelical tenets for any period of time while gathering stories about his social interiors is just that, a fantasy.

People become what they put their time and energy into. Assembly of God won't change. He will. And because he comes with an air of superiority and "subversion," he will be more vulnerable than most to a sudden conversion.

I'd guess that most who complain about Assembly of God are concerned about their ugly behavior toward others not in the Assembly of God. No one cares what they do behind closed doors. We care what they do as a matter of public policy, such as working to cheat others of their freedom.

Joining the Assembly of God and giving them time, energy, and cash is a great way to expand their membership list and their policy of hate against women and gays. It is not in any way a progressive move. I have my suspicions about the intent of the suggestion, and I don't believe it is anything positive. "If you want to give your money to people with minds that hate, you can count me out!"

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[yebrent]

86. Hmmm. After 13 years of (K-12) of Catholic education...

...it has been a long and arduous process of losing my Christian faith. It is not something that just comes back to you, ask anyone who has been though it. It would be like unlearning evolutionary theory. It is just something that does not happen. And doubly so since I have filled the void with a new stronger (IMO) faith described in my first post.

People who join evangelical churches never lost their Christian faith. They probably doubted at times or had no Christian faith to begin with. However, doubting your faith and losing it are not the same thing. I doubted my Christian faith for most of my Childhood and it was not fully lost until I got through my teens after lots of introspection, study, and growth of self esteem.

People become what they put their time and energy into. Assembly of God won't change. He will. And because he comes with an air of superiority and "subversion," he will be more vulnerable than most to a sudden conversion.

You don't know me very well. Actually, hardly at all, but thanks for your concern, but I'm quite confident there is nothing for me to fear. Sounds like you actually have a bit of a superiority problem yourself.

Joining the Assembly of God and giving them time, energy, and cash is a great way to expand their membership list and their policy of hate against women and gays. It is not in any way a progressive move. I have my suspicions about the intent of the suggestion, and I don't believe it is anything positive. "If you want to give your money to people with minds that hate, you can count me out!"

Now you are just making silly assumptions. Who said anything about giving them money? Who said anything about joining? If they confront me and require commitments, oaths, blood, whatever, I will just turn around and walk away.

I'm just going to listen in attempts to understand. As you say, they are "minds that hate". Well, I happen to believe that hate comes from fear and ignorance. Understanding (not agreement) is the first step at breaking through this barrier. Hating them just breeds more hate in return. Sure, the so called Christian Conservative authorities won't change, but IMO, their flock are highly prone to change and may simply need new creative alternatives.

[amazona]

98. unfortunately you are just wrong about this

People who have experienced one hysterical conversion and then lost their faith quite often go on to have other religious conversion experiences. Some have multiple conversions to multiple religions. It is not a matter of intelligence. Look at all the various religious conversions Bob Dylan went through over the years. People who take 13 years to dig out of one hole are probably unwise to cast themselves into the next hole that comes along.

That said, a word to the wise is sufficient, and there is no point in casting pearls before swine.

I stand by my opinion that people who invest their time and energy in a church are at risk for being assimilated into that church. If you want to flirt with Assemblies of God, you will not get encouragement from me.

I am tired of being "understanding" of a group of people that has never wasted a moment's thought on being "understanding" of me.

However, your time and efforts are certainly yours to waste on repeating what other people who actually know/have lived with fundamentalists already know. Sometimes we can't learn from other people's experiences. I don't know how many people here with actual real life experiences of fundamentalists have told you that you're pounding sand, so if you aren't capable of "getting it," you'll just have to learn the hard way.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[LWolf]

72. My thoughts:

If you want to learn where they are coming from, and you have a strong stomach, go for it. I was married to a family of them for 10 years; I learned way more than I ever needed to.

If you think you can influence them, think again.

If you want to put your energies and efforts into a religious shift, I'd suggest a different way. Attend ecumenical churches, and put the focus and energy into growing them.

Or join the local interfaith council, attend their services, and participate in their outreaches. I've done a little of this.

I don't think we can force a shift on those who have locked the doors and thrown away the keys to their minds and spirits. I think we grow a vibrant, healthy population of alternatives on the outside, visible and welcoming to people seeking direction or change. The brighter and more visible those choices become, the more people will notice them and check them out. I think that's how the shift will occur.

[yebrent]

77. Thanks for the advice.

I think I am interested in the most extreme ones first so when I do attend the more progressive Churches, they won't seem as bad comparison. Although, I'm not convinced that progressive Churches are the solution to the growing and dangerous evangelical movement. It seems that these evangelical systems have prepared for this and have strong (however illogical) defenses against losing power to progressive Churches.

[LWolf]

95. I'm thinking that a major shift in religion

is a weighty thing; it happens over generations, not in a decade or two. I see it more of a slow progress; with other options shining brightly out there, fewer people get sucked in, and some who are unhappy with where they are peek out beyond their self-imposed limits.

I keep reminding myself that arguing, or "proving" anything to those who've made up their minds and closed the door is an exercise in futility. When you engage them, you fire up their engines and set them on a course to defend, deny, and "win." When you pay them no particular attention, but go about your business within their sight, eventually some are going to look, and step out to see what it is you are doing, and what it is all about.

Of course, I did my time "inside" in my younger years, so I don't need to find out what they are really all about!

[seventythree]

80. excellent thoughts

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. The wildest girl in my high school was

the daughter of a Minister from The Assembly of God Church. ;) Well, wild is putting it mildly. :7 As for going to a church and engaging people? No way. I gave up church many years ago and have no intension of returning to any. You're not going to change any minds. The evangelicals have a goal. The Rapture. You aren't going to change their politics.

[yebrent]

87. I don't expect to change their politics

Just hoping to better understand their flock in attempts to one day create less destructive alternatives that provide them a similar comfort. Progressive churches obviously don't do it for them, but IMO there might be something we are missing. Actually, I'm quite confident there is something we are missing, because destructive evangelical churches are growing rapidly, so whatever we are doing to counter this isn't working very well.

[spanone]

83. Dump organized religion, God works for free.

[yebrent]

89. If you are responding to my original post.

You are assuming that I believe in God. Well, to the question of whether there is a God or gods, I believe in the Sacred Unknown.

As part of a system we can't objectively view that same system. Or in other words:

You can't measure the outside of a box from the inside.

[ernstbass]

84. Is this Ashcroft's church

where dancing is a sin?

[Tafiti]

85. Yebrent, trust me.

You are barking up the wrong tree in the Assemblies of God. I know, because I was raised in it. My dad was an AG minister until I was 12, as well as 3 uncles (2 of which still are). I went to church every Sunday and Wednesday until my late teens, so I know the theology well. I used to believe it myself. The indoctrination runs so deeply, it is difficult to break free from it - the whole process probably took me 4 years (college). I'm not saying no single AG member could not be reached, but no change can take place within the church setting. You will be rebuked, and vehemently so. I've read Quinn's books, and they flipped my worldview upside-down. They were probably the most important books I've ever read. But Quinn's message is contrary at every point to the AG theology. Every single point. Biblical inerrancy is one of the cornerstones of AG dogma, and to question that fact is blasphemy.

I'll give you 2 important examples: In order to even consider Quinn's point of view, one's mind must be open to 2 possibilities: One, that evolution did in fact occur. Two, "the world was not made for man." I can think of no other ideas that are so actively and forcefully opposed and denounced within the AG denomination. Addressing number One, the Creation story in Genesis is literal. The world was created in 7 days, exactly the way it is told in Genesis. To believe otherwise in the AG church, you are labeled as confused, and have been deceived by the Devil. Period. Charles Darwin's work is just as offensive to the AG sensibility as Satanism. Addressing number Two, the world WAS made for man, it says so in the Bible (remember inerrancy?). God clearly says that man shall have dominion over the Earth. Period. No questions asked. These issues aren't "on the table" for debate, so to speak. They are simply givens.

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are literally heroes in the AG church. Their ideas, comments, sentiments, etc. are like gospel to AG church-goers. And when an AG member says otherwise, they are not telling the whole truth. I remember when Falwell said some nasty things on national television about homosexuals, my dad (and others) would say, "That's not right, he shouldn't have done that." But don't misunderstand. They don't say this because they disagree with what he said because they do, they only don't like the fact that it hurts their image. They don't want people to think they're intolerant, then people wouldn't come through the doors. But after you become "saved", and start attending church regularly, pretty soon you believe the same things. I've seen it so many times throughout my life, I know what goes on. I also believe that the AG churches I've been to are representative of the denomination as a whole, because I've been to many.

If you have any questions, you can reply or PM me if you want. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about AG. Like I said, I know it well, I was there for a majority of my life. And most of family still are.

[yebrent]

88. Thank you for sharing!!

I have one big question.

What exactly caused you to begin doubting and reach out in search for other possibilities?

Because that process is what I would like to pinpoint, magnify and multiply 7 x 77. (a little Christian humor)

[Tafiti]

90. Good question.

I think the biggest thing was specific to the AG faith - the belief in biblical inerrancy. It became all too clear that it wasn't true - that the bible had plenty of inaccuracies and contradictions. I took a class on the Old Testament my sophomore year of college, and it was probably forever shattered at that point. To take only one example, the Creation story, as it is written, was clearly written by, or added to, or modified, by three to four different authors. I suppose it's something that's easily recognizable once it's shown to you, but hard to see otherwise. At that point, it was easy for me to begin to question the rest - if the Bible was in fact, full of errors, what else did my church force-feed me that isn't true?

From then on, there are too many things to list here that have helped me make sense of things, and to finally have the courage to throw the whole thing out the window. I guess the culmination was Daniel Quinn. As I was reading Ishmael, I kept thinking to myself, this is the book I've been looking for my entire life.

I remember when I was heavy into church, some aspects did not sit comfortably, but I went ahead and swallowed, and ultimately the fear of punishment (hell) made me walk the "straight and narrow"...just keep your mind quiet and don't ask difficult questions. Being fully indoctrinated with that kind of theology, it was terrifying to let it go. I was terrified of being wrong. But as I learned more and more, it was easy to discard bits and pieces of the faith at a time. Once it go to that point, the point where the only thing left was fear of punishment if I didn't believe, I took the leap of unfaith, if you will. It was the most liberating experience of my life, and I'm so much more "at peace" than I ever was in church, where they constantly tell you you're "at peace", even if you personally aren't. I guess I've always been intellectually curious and very analytical, and an AG church is most definitely not conducive to exercising those traits. AG is for people who want simple answers so that they can lead a comfortable existence. No tough questions, just answers. Black and white. Right and wrong. Good and evil. God and Satan. Angels and demons. Believers and non-believers. Creation and evolution. Dogma and interpretation. Conservative and liberal. The list goes on and on.

[yebrent]

92. Thanks again!

I guess the culmination was Daniel Quinn. As I was reading Ishmael, I kept thinking to myself, this is the book I've been looking for my entire life.

That's great. I was lucky enough to read it when I was 16, and it definitely helped me shed the last bits of my Catholic faith.

I remember when I was heavy into church, some aspects did not sit comfortably, but I went ahead and swallowed, and ultimately the fear of punishment (hell) made me walk the "straight and narrow"...just keep your mind quiet and don't ask difficult questions. Being fully indoctrinated with that kind of theology, it was terrifying to let it go. I was terrified of being wrong.

Sounds like we were similar in that we both doubted a bit for as long as we could remember. Unfortunately they have long tested defenses to keep the doubters in line. In my experience in Catholic school, I was often called a "Doubting Thomas" and reminded that those who have not seen, yet still believe will be rewarded in heaven. Those who doubt, not so much...

But as I learned more and more, it was easy to discard bits and pieces of the faith at a time. Once it got to that point, the point where the only thing left was fear of punishment if I didn't believe, I took the leap of unfaith, if you will. It was the most liberating experience of my life, and I'm so much more "at peace" than I ever was in church, where they constantly tell you you're "at peace", even if you personally aren't.

"Leap of unfaith" <- I love it!!. And the fear of hell does always seem to be the last to go, at least from what I have heard from other's "losing their faith" experience.

Have you read, 'The Story of B' by Daniel Quinn? Most of his readers like it even more than Ishmael, myself included. It would be of particular interest to you, in that the main character (a priest) goes through a similar process of losing his faith. Quinn describes it as "50 Degrees of Faith". When you are indoctrinated, you are at the 50th degree of your faith. Over time, as you question things and reject bits and pieces, you lose degrees of faith, until eventually you are left with only one degree of faith. When it is gone, there is no turning back.

Since you have such extensive experience with the AG, could you please answer a few questions concerning my upcoming visit? Keep in mind, this is a Northern California AG Church.

Will they be looking out for new converts as they walk in the door?

Should I expect to be approached immediately, after some time, or not at all? Will they challenge the purpose of my visit? If I say, "I'm here just to observe", or "to learn", will they accept that?

Do they require the whole "being saved" routine to sit through a service?

Thanks again!

[Tafiti]

93. No problem.

Yes, the "those who have not seen" bit, that was always the response to questions, at least those questions that were troublesome to answer. Oh, and the "child-like faith" bit. That's anti-intellectualism at its finest.

I have read the Story of B, as well as My Ishmael and Beyond Civilization. I haven't gotten around to reading his others yet. The Story of B was probably my favorite. I absolutely loved the way it ended. As I read the last words of the book, I got chills all over my body. And as long as we're recommending books, have you heard of Derrick Jensen? If not A Language Older Than Words and The Culture of Make Believe are must-reads. They are in the same vein of Daniel Quinn (Quinn is actually one of the author's who gives acclaim to the book on the back cover of 'Culture'). I highly recommend them.

As far as attending an AG church, I would be surprised if they're much different from what I've experienced, though I could be wrong.

Will they be looking out for new converts as they walk in the door?

Most definitely. A new face is always a potential new member.

Should I expect to be approached immediately, after some time, or not at all? Will they challenge the purpose of my visit? If I say, "I'm here just to observe", or "to learn", will they accept that?

I would say this depends on the size of the church. The minister will often ask for a show of hands of first-time visitors, and an usher will bring you a little form to fill out your name, address, and phone number so they can send you information. If you do not raise your hand (again, depends on the size), people will know you consciously avoided raising your hand, because members of the congregation are used to looking for new faces, and they'll know you're new. They may give you a form regardless of whether you raise your hand or not. It's safe to assume at least a couple of people will come up to you after the service (or before) and talk to you, and casually ask you questions. Basically, they are trying to gauge whether you're a "believer" or not, and they'll pick up on this easily. They may ask, "So, are you looking for a new church?" or something seemingly innocent like that. As a non-believer (this would apply to Catholics, mind you), they'll be super nice to you and tell you how great it is that you came, and that they hope you'll come back, etc. If you repeatedly attend this same church, this will only become worse. They will take it as a sign that you are "receiving the message" or that "God is leading you to keep coming". Now, depending on how you phrase the word "learn," this could be well-received or ill-received. If it's to learn about God (their version, of course), then that is GREAT! But if they get the sense that you're observing them in some sort of detached, journalistic manner, they will not like this one bit. I would say just try to get there right at the scheduled service time, sit at the back, and leave immediately.

Do they require the whole "being saved" routine to sit through a service?

No. But there will likely be an "altar call" at the end of the sermon. The minister will ask everyone to bow their heads, and usually the piano or organ player will play some soft, slow melody while the minister prays. The prayer actually becomes a little mini-sermon. It's really a glorified guilt-trip to get you to come forward and confess your sins and "ask Jesus into your heart." Sometimes though, depending on the minister, he will have everybody repeat a prayer of salvation, so that people aren't uncomfortable being singled out.

Funny story: I remember one time during a service, during the altar call, someone near the back was trying to duck out during the prayer (not a member), and the minister actually called for people to go after this person. Damn, I just remembered that. How ridiculous, and frightening. You see, to them, you're feeling the conviction of God, and are running away from it, and Satan is making you want to leave.

Let me know how it goes, I'd be interested to hear.

[yebrent]

96. thanks!

Thanks for the AG information. It will be very useful. I will proceed with caution.

Derrick Jensen is great! 'A Language Older Than Words' is amazing IMO. Although some parts were extremely tough to read. The book was so personal and emotional, even when he wasn't writing about himself. His depictions of encounters between the "White Man" and indigenous cultures had me in tears. I haven't read 'The Culture of Make Believe' yet. In is in my stack. I'm currently making my way though Guns, Germs and Steel by Jarred Diamond. It is quickly becoming a profound book that is rewriting history of our global culture of destruction.

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. Have you visited my site before? You might find something of interest

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/liberalchristians.htm