Why can't the Creationism in schools debate be this easy?

[LostInAnomie]

Fundie: Creationism is as valid of a theory as Evolution.

Rational Person: Fine, then prove that it is a fact. Evolution has been tested and retested by the best scientists in the world. Give me one piece of evidence that Creation happened in the order you say it did.

Fundie: Well in Genesis...

Rational Person: Stop right there. So you are going to use a book that provides no evidence whatsoever to try to prove your case. Let me guess, I have to have faith that what the Bible says is true.

Fundie: Yeah, that's right.

Rational Person: So you want to use public schools to teach all children, even those of different religions that your religion is correct, and they should have faith in it. You know there is an amendment about not using public funds to promote a religion, so SHUT UP!


It should be that easy. They should be the one's defending their "facts" not us.

[tridim]

1. There's another book of Fiction that talks about Hobbits

I can use that book to "prove" the existence of Hobbits. It's no different than creationists using the bible to "prove" their points.

[shaolinmonkey]

5. But I have faith in Hobbits. How dare you question my faith!

Don't you fear Gandalf?

[displacedtexan]

2. Excellent!

Fact v Faith...

Also, when Fact represents the status quo, the enitre burden of proof rests with the Faith side of the debate.

That's basic debate structure, and any fascist fundie can watch Law & Order to watch it in action.

[EVDebs]

3. In the Big Bang theory, the initial spark is called a singularity and I

can't give a better place to ask, in the classroom or anywhere else for that matter, 'what was before that initial singularity ?' BTW, in a singularity, the normal laws of physics -- as in string theory--go out the window, in the quantum world of tinyness.

[LostInAnomie]

7. "God created the universe."...

...and I can't think of a better question than "Who created God?"

[rurallib]

17. And then who created the one who created god?

[papau]

18. As it says in the song in HAIR - "that's me"

as good a definition of faith as any!

:-)

[CrispyQ]

19. Exactly. Or as someone else put it . . .

If a watch is so complex that it requires a watchmaker, then the watchmaker also requires a maker & the maker requires a maker & so on & so on & so on. You end up with an infinty of makers.

I have Richard Dawkin's "The Blind Watchmaker" on order & am anxious to read it!

[CBGLuthier]

8. Big Bang is dead, long live M theory

Saw a special a while back on M theory. It may solve all the anomolies present in Big Bang.

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/02/0506/0506-cyclicuniverse.htm

[LostInAnomie]

11. I saw that too.

I couldn't wrap my mind around the 11 or more dimensions part. That is way beyond me.

[rurallib]

15. Can't handle 11 dimensions? Just have faith!!

[papau]

23. LOL

:-)

[papau]

14. right - those infinite parallel dimensions that are offset from each other

but only 6 extra ones! - or is it 7?

And no more curled dimensions

But the equations still can not be solved in a way to make them predictive.....

hmmmmm...... I believe we call that faith - perhaps even a religion!

But...but.....but the wormhole from the prior universe seeds the current one so their is no beginning????? - as if there was no first universe.

Man - I love physics -

negative gravity!

and black hole evaporation and release of information .

Actually - the baryon paper of a few weeks ago IS interesting.

And there is no reason one can't have an appreciation of physics and a love of God!..

peace

:-)

[tridim]

22. I saw it too, and spent about 12 strait hours doing web research

afterwords. It's the first time I've ever (mostly) understood what gravity is.. Not just why gravity exists. The ball rolling around bent space time never did it for me, mainly because they always show it in just two dimensions. The fact that they're talking about using the gravitational force to detect parallel universes just boggles my mind.

If I were 18 now I'd definitely study M theory in school.. and go strait to hell of course. :evilgrin:

[papau]

24. Feynman once told a lecture I attended that if you can't teach something

in Freshman Physics, you do not have a completely thought out concept.

[tridim]

26. String theory kind of blows his lecture subject out of the water

It's not easy to grasp, but once you "get it" it kind of clicks. It's certainly easy to demonstrate the EFFECT of gravity to Freshman who don't give a rats ass about physics, but nearly impossible to explain what it actually is.

[papau]

28. A force needs that gravity particle? we really do not have our arms

around gravity. And back in the 50's there was a lot of discussion about how our "laws" might be true only in our corner of the universe, so attractive gravity and replusive gravity make for a bit of deja vue

String theory as a concept is easy with curled dimemsions that avoided that shadow problem - but now with M theory ... -)

Thank God I took the easy way out and became an actuary!

[Hissyspit]

4. I always say to people "o.k., I have ABSOLUTE faith that there is a...

giant invisible talking rabbit named Harvey following me around," but it does not make it true.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

6. just stand back

their heads might explode

[stopbush]

9. Because creationists wear their ignorance as a badge of honor.

They can't even get the definition of the word "theory" right, let alone understand scientic method.

[KuTava]

10. I see the point

Telling Jesuslanders just what we think of them has got to be a good thing. The truth will out.

[vs the introvore]

12. fundamentally...

creation
big bang
primordial soup

there's a difference?

"in the beginning there was a point or source or vaguely-defined mote of origin somehow tickled out of nowhere. and it was other. and from it came both the whenceforth and the herenow. and so it shall be known that the beginning is only extemporaneously causal in nature and in mind."

[ultraist]

13. I prefer the Native American creationism story, why not use that?

They were here first!

[papau]

16. I thought Native American was "intelligent design" and not creationism

my error!~

:-)

[enki23]

20. unfortunately, their arguments are much more sophisticated than that

and there is no reliable single test for what is science, and what is not. falsificationism doesn't really cut it, and is hardly accepted by the whole of the scientific community. that's especially true of philosophers of science.

[KuTava]

27. If falsification doesn't cut it, what does?

Of course, you might have already answered that with "nothing does," but we do know the difference between science and non-science, right? So there must be a way to tell them apart.

[mediaman007]

21. Since the only proof is in the Bible, it can't be used in school

due to the separation of church and state. The government cannot favor one religion over another, so out goes Creationism.

(Where did you think of this? My best thinking is in the morning shower.)

[tx_dem41]

25. Not that I am comfortable at all defending the "Fundie" side....

but you are vastly simplifying their argument in your little dialogue. Now, if you had posted that argument, I would attack it fairly.

[LostInAnomie]

29. No matter how complex their argument appears to be...

... eventually it breaks down into circular reasoning, and faith in that circular reasoning.

So in order for Creationism to be taught the students have to be indoctrinated to some measure into their faith.

I have never been clear on how they would intend on teaching Creationism as science. With Evolution there are many books for reference. With Creationism there is only really the Bible. Doesn't that mean in order to teach Creationism as science that passages from the Bible must be taught in school?

[EVDebs]

30. Well, sadly, with 'science' we know how the universe will end

at least our universe (sun-based). The sun dies out in what a billion years or so, and then pfffffffffffffft. Not a big bang but a wimper.

For what it's worth, we should all be helping eachother no matter what we believe. Read "Heaven's My Destination" by Thornton Wilder...you'll get it.