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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 03:04 PM
Original message
"Raise Your Hand If You're a Woman in Science..."
The article excerpted below is one of the better ones I've seen in the wake of the Harvard President's recent comments about possible reasons for the relative lack of women in the sciences.

The author points out two of the primary reasons that the Harvard President seemed so ignorant of: (1) the biased attitudes, both covert and overt, the women in male-dominated fields continuously face, and (2) from an early age, "we don't cultivate women who are strong in math."

--Peter

From the Washington Post: Jan 30 2005
Raise Your Hand If You're A Woman in Science . . .

By Virginia Valian
Sunday, January 30, 2005; Page B01


For the past two weeks, my e-mail in-box has overflowed with messages from women -- and some men -- about the hypotheses recently offered by Harvard President Lawrence H. Summers to explain the dearth of women in the academic sciences. One woman wrote, "It is not surprising that people are angry when they see such full-blown contemptuous arrogance." Others were shocked at his apparent insensitivity: Had he no concern for the female students and faculty in math and science at Harvard or other academic institutions?

(snip)

(Summers is not alone) in being unaware of the large set of experiments showing that well-intentioned people, intelligent people, people who believe in a meritocracy -- people, in short, just like many successful college presidents -- consistently underrate women's abilities and overrate men's.

The finding that emerges from the research, in experiment after experiment, is that bias is a problem not because it is deliberate, but because it is the outcome of assumptions of which we are not consciously aware. Take, for example, a study published last year by New York University professor Madeline Heilman and her colleagues. The researchers asked people to rate individual men and women who were described as holding the position of assistant vice president in an aircraft company. The evaluators' job was to rate how competent and likable the employees were. They were given background information about the person, the job and the company.

In half the cases, the employee was described as about to have a performance review (his or her competence was thus unknown); in the other half, the person was described as having been a stellar performer.

When the evaluators had received no information about how well the assistant VP was doing in the job, they rated the man as more competent than the woman, and rated them as equally likable. When the background information made clear that the person was extremely competent, evaluators rated the man and woman as equally competent. But both men and women rated the highly competent woman as much less likable than her male counterpart, and considerably more hostile.

Thus, in evaluating a woman in a male-dominated field, both male and female observers see her as less competent than a similarly described man unless there is clear information that she is a top performer. And in that case, they see her as less likable than a comparable man.

(snip)

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46421-2005Jan29.html

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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick
One more chance.

--Peter
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not surprising. The worst part is that women discriminate against themselv
es.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm a woman in science
The sexism in the science departments of most universities and colleges, even the most liberal ones, are appalling.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Will it never end?
Will we always have to work twice as hard to get half the credit?
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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. There's clearly a long way to go
The attitude of many people towards Larry Summers' statements (excusing them, defending him, arguing that women may be innately inferior to men in science, arguing that discrimination and bias are insignificant causes of male domination of science fields) clearly demonstrates that we are going to be stuck with this situation for a while yet.

I think the subject of continuing bias against women in male-dominated fields needs to be put in the public eye much more often. Knock some people out of their complacency. Encourage others to put up a fight.

The troglodytes will still be there, but perhaps they will be less aggressive in their position.

Not sure what else to do.

:shrug:

--Peter
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cattleman22 Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It is not in all male dominated fields
Veterinary medicine and animal science used to be male dominated fields. Now incomig classes are 75% or so female. One vet class in Michigan was 100% female.
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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Students aren't the same as professionals
How many actual vets are female?

:shrug:

In scientific fields, the percentage of women precipitously drops as you progress up from undergraduate student to graduate student to post-doc to full professional.

--Peter
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I don't know about in general,

but I can say that I've never seen any evidence that the Maths department in Cambridge University in the UK discriminates against women in any way, and that I would be shocked, and also very, very surprised, if it did, but that it's still fairly heavily male dominated.

I don't know for sure why this is - we do have some female mathematicians, and they're no less able than their male counterparts, but there are far fewer of them, despite fairly heavy-duty targeted recruitment of female students.

I suspect that largely it's a vicious circle - most people, male or female, are not going to want to enter a field where they're going to be the only representative of their gender, and that too many women are brought up to believe that Science is Men's Work. I suspect that schools also have something to answer for, and that - although saying it is probably going to make me deeply unpopular - there probably is a biological component as well.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes we will. But it's better today than 20 years ago.
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CatBoreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Biology is considered a "soft" science...
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 01:40 PM by CatBoreal
....when women start making up 75% of Physics/Chemistry/Math/Engineering classes, maybe then they'll realize that we're just as capable as men.

(speaking as a Biology Major currently working in Computer Sciences who has a sister with an MA in Aeronautical Engineering from MIT)
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Check out the sexist remarks in this NYT column on the subject!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/nyregion/01nyc.html?oref=login

The Girls Are Smart, Real Smart
By CLYDE HABERMAN

Published: February 1, 2005

LAWRENCE H. SUMMERS, Harvard's president and chief penitent, came to mind when we learned the other day about New York City's finalists in the Intel Science Talent Search.

You no doubt recall the uproar over Mr. Summers's thoughts about why women fare worse than men in math and the sciences. It just might be, he said at an academic conference, that the sexes are wired differently.

Jumping Jehoshaphat, what a stir he caused! One woman, a biologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, was so upset that she walked out. Some of her female colleagues stuck around to challenge Mr. Summers directly. But she said that his remarks had made her physically ill and unable to breathe.

You had to wonder what might happen were she to become president of the United States and hear unwelcome words from the Russians or the French. Faint dead away, would she? <more>
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. We will never be able to understand ourselves
Me an' Goedel are right about this one.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. When I was in Engineering School....I can tell you this...
women were equal to men in intelligence.

I recall this one fellow picked me to be his lab partner and then the jerk never showed up for lab. The first time I put his name on the lab paper to share credit...but once I realized the jerk thought I was his secretary his name never appeared. After he failed the class he tried to get me failed and the professor told him. "Son, if you had showed up for the lab and typed up the reports...your name would have been on them..now get out of my office and consider this a life lesson"

Intelligent women are viewed differently than men...in fact some of the men in the Engineering school wouldn't even consider dating some of us gals because we were threatening to them.

If you studied with the guys, some of the men would think you were getting good grades because you were sleeping with someone or because the guys you studied with were expecting favors for help...funny thing...I was typically invited into study groups because I was capable.

There are people that still can't believe I am an engineer.. recently one fellow I met through politics remarked..."you don't look like an engineer"...I asked him why and he said..."because you are actually attractive"...now tell me that isn't some sort of freakish stereotype.

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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. This is how it works
Attractive women do not have to use their brains. They use their looks to get what they want in life and they don't have to work as hard. Through their education they focused on boys and social events and academics was just something to get through.

The unattractive female had more time with her brain due to less social activities. She developed other parts of herself to make up for the deficiencies in her appearance.

Of course these aren't my thoughts just my observations of dealing with people's stereotypes.

I have long blonde hair and big boobs. No one expects a brain. It's always fun to see when someone realizes that they underestimated you. It can really work to your advantage.
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "Attractive women do not have to use their brains."
"They use their looks to get what they want in life and they don't have to work as hard."

Isn't that in itself a stereotype?

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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I guess I wasn't clear
I said

"Of course these aren't my thoughts just my observations of dealing with people's stereotypes"

I was speaking as someone who has been a victim of these stereotypes not someone who believes these stereotypes.
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Ahhh.....My bad. Sorry about that.
I missed the part about the big boobs too. :D
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No Problemo
:hi:
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Oops...
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 02:35 PM by slutticus
Wrong place..
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. Does Computer Science count?
I run a small business network and more than once I was dealing with some outside support or vendor and I've been told, "Ask your computer guy to help" or "Who's your computer guy?" I always love saying, "I'm the computer guy." Only time will change things as more girls and then women are taught to open their minds to the possibilities within.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. A woman in science
Well, I am proud to say that in elementary school, I received the Charles Drew Award for excelling in science, and I'm an African-American woman! Imagine that, Lawrence Summers!

And Clinton had this idiot on his team!!! Good grief!
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