I give up!

[botchan]

I came back to DU (from my post-election depression) in the hopes to start discussing issues and try to see some light at the end of this dim (wit) tunnel we find ourselves in.

When you attempt to talk about a possible good future for the world you are attacked and degraded. Is this what the democratic party has become? Can we not hope, pray, and fight for a better tomorrow? Must we tell everyone that doesn't have a dismal view of the world to "F--- Off!"???

We are feeding off the negativity! We must become a beacon of hope! We can't hope for failure in order to prove our platform. We must point out the better path and lead our fellow citizens in that direction.

Am I crazy?

[acmejack]

1. I agree

We must not become (or remain) "The Nattering Nabobs of Negativity".

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brainshrub]

2. Yes.

Negativity is good for you. It whitens teeth and makes your bones strong. /sarcasm.

You need to spend more time at DU. It isn't that bad. Liberals are far more optimistic than conservatives. Conservatives enjoy punishing people, Liberals work to reward everyone for playing by the rules.

[Swamp Rat]

3. I pray for failure

[i miss america]

15. Your prayers have already been answered. I pray for blind sheep to see

[botchan]

23. So true

And are we going to help them see by driving further into their delusions? I too pray for an enlightened America.

[Robbien]

66. How do you measure enlighteded? Having everyone bow down

and praise Bush?

Or hope the opposite and that The Third World Order fails.

I expect the former is your wish.

[Swamp Rat]

70. Since my pic disappeared... again, I pray "THEY" fail.

Hey botchan! How come you never address me personally, but instead attack me though others?




edit: Where did you go?

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. No, but hoping for "success" has implications. Should we hope ...

that the Iraq elections are "successful", for instance?

If they are so perceived, might that not encourage the barbarians in the WH, Stae Dept., etc. to try to replicate their "success" in... I don't know... Iran? Cuba? Venezuela?

Would this be a good thing?

Perhaps I don't get you.

[bemildred]

5. Tsk, where is Pollyanna when we need her? nt

[hfojvt]

46. which would you prefer?

A thousand Pollyannas cheerfully trying to make things better, or a thousand Cassandras wailing about the fact that we are doomed?

The clouds will come out tomorrow
bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow
there'll be clouds
just thinkin' about tomorrow
takes away the joy and the gladness
'til there's none
when I'm stuck with a day that's blue and happy
I just stick out my tongue and frown and say
tomorrow, tomorrow I hate ya tomorrow
you're always a day that's gray

"Don't. Stop thinking about tomorrow."

[K-W]

49. You clearly have missed the meaning of "polyanna"

It is not someone supporting a positive change.

Because there is no positive change, the right thing to do is not support it but to support efforts for positive change, like withdrawing the illegal occupation and letting the regional and global community do the right thing for the Iraqi's because BUSH WONT.

[derby378]

6. Our point all along was that with Bush...

...the light at the end of the tunnel was the lamp of a freight train headed our way.

I'm more optimistic about a new Presidency under Clark, under Kerry, even under McCain (even though * rendered him spineless).

[Stop_the_War]

7. what's with the "holier than thou" attitude?

It's like an "I'm more optimistic than you so F*** OFF" attitude.

[blondeatlast]

73. Note his sig line and you'll get your answer.

"Why is everyone so damn ignorant?"

Isn't that why we're here--because we AREN'T?!

[Cats Against Frist]

8. Oh feh. So you come and post an accusatory flame-bait like post to fix it?

Why don't we all argue about how right or wrong you are??? If you were that fed up, instead of coming back, why don't you just go pass out daisies to Bush Supporters?

I'm not quite sure I understand the purpose of your post, other than to get a long argument started.

[botchan]

17. The purpose...

I don't see DU as the democratic party, but I do see it as a starting off point for true debate and direction. There are a lot of people here, that if organized could help change the direction of this country.

We (democrats) are being portrayed as negative, anti-American, etc... When the truth is exactly the opposite. We see the strength and value in PEOPLE! Like the Iraqi citizens, etc. We are getting too involved in the argument and not enough involved in the solution. This is at both ends of our party spectrum. Sound-bite here, sound-bite there.

Individuals like Boxer are trying, but we are not showing our support strong enough for the individuals that want change.

I want to hear discussion about possible change and how to achieve it. This is a personal feeling I have that we are playing into the hands of those that say we like failure. I do not wish for a Bush success, but I also don't wish the Iraqis anymore harm. It is a dichotomy that causes me much anguish.

I feel that the American people are looking for a positive leader. One that discusses "real" possibilities, not future disasters. Can we point out the failures (miserable) and misappropriations of the current administration while showing the light to a better tomorrow?

[blondeatlast]

74. Then I suggest you post that reply instead of your OP.

Dramatic exits belong in the Lounge, anyway.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. There ARE posts suggesting positive changes--lots of them

I don't think you're looking hard enough.

But the negativity is a necessary first step for a lot of people, especially when we've got an administration that seems to break its own records for outrageousness every day.

[GetTheRightVote]

9. But there is hope in going over the negative, you must know your enemy

to defeat him. Unforunately there is alot of evil actions being taken in our country and in the world to ignore this truth is to ignore the reality of the world. But there is hope when good men and women live in this same world because they will seek to understand the negative, then will act to defeat it and to make this world a better place to live for all. We do not wish to hide from the truth or the facts, instead we strive to over come and improve on them, to make a better world thru our interaction with it.

:kick:

[meisje]

10. DU has been hi-jacked by the doomsayers

The world is ending, then sky is falling wah wah wah! I think most of the realists left just after the election.

[vetwife]

30. I think

you may be on to something. Maybe all the doom and gloom helps the
pharmacutical companies but it does nothing for me. I am trying to get on with my life. There are people here with bad ideas and many opposition with good ideas and it is up to each individual to filter out the life that will bring a little joy into day to day living. Get with the program folks and hug your kid, read a good book, tune out the sky is falling and watch a comedy.

I did not suggest you not keep up with your day to day activites but this is life. You play the hand you have and if you are typing on a message board, all of your freedoms have not eroded, you have elctricity or at least batteries and a puter. There are people starving all over and in this country but instead of screaming about it, find them and personally help them.

We will never have a perfect government. We don't live in a perfect world and whining about how much better things would be IF doesn't make it so. If you want things to be better...start with something other than fear, doom and gloom. Now I guess I will get flamed but that is how I see it.

[JanMichael]

11. DU is not the Democratic Party.

It's a message board. I only mention this because of, "Is this what the democratic party has become?", which I gather is in reference to what you percieve ideas on DU are.

The Democratic Party, which is an actual political party, Leans to the Left of the Republican Party, which leans to the Left of Franco/Pinochette.

I hope that clears it up:-)

[xultar]

26. Thank God, I keep forgetting, DU is not the Democratic party good point

Thanks for reminding me.

[JanMichael]

34. You're welcome. I knew that it was confusing for some folks.

Just here to help:-)

[Toucano]

12. Democratic Underground = Democratic Party

True or False?

You're not crazy. You're just letting a bad experience with a few individuals influence your view of a few hundred million people.

Does that seem wise?

[poe]

13. American Born-Addicted to Happiness

What makes Americans think they shouldn't suffer. False hope is destructive and paralyzing. stop whining-stop hoping-be involved everyday. hope and despair are two sides of the same coin. we need you so get down and dirty when you have to and don't look for results. massive civil disobedience-urban gardens-and fun filled pranks. don't waste an iota of energy trying to "fix" this. even if you could you wouldn't want to. create new spaces and modes of existence. electoral politics is a sink, how much more evidence do you need.

[Just Me]

14. I take the position of a pragmatic optimist.

Ignoring reality fails to advance the future.

Reality dictates that the neoCONs are perpetuating their pattern of deception.

That pattern of deception must be breached to advance an optimistic position on democracy, equality, liberty and opportunity.

[Robbien]

16. When your "optimism" reads like talking points straight from the WH

daily talking memo, of course your "optimism" is suspect. When your "optimism" is questioned, you immediately label the questioner as negative.

You post "When our country brings freedom to another nation". A statement straight from Mr. Bush's propaganda speech at the coronation.

Your "Optimism" sounds very much like BushCo propaganda.

[botchan]

18. Where in this post

"I came back to DU (from my post-election depression) in the hopes to start discussing issues and try to see some light at the end of this dim (wit) tunnel we find ourselves in.

When you attempt to talk about a possible good future for the world you are attacked and degraded. Is this what the democratic party has become? Can we not hope, pray, and fight for a better tomorrow? Must we tell everyone that doesn't have a dismal view of the world to "F--- Off!"???

We are feeding off the negativity! We must become a beacon of hope! We can't hope for failure in order to prove our platform. We must point out the better path and lead our fellow citizens in that direction.

Am I crazy?"

Do I mention bringing freedom to anyone! I personally do not believe that freedom is given, it is earned. I in no way agree with any actions that the current administration have taken. I do however believe in the power of positive thought and peaceful protest.

[Robbien]

22. You praise freedom brought by us to Iraq in one thread and think your

critisism and bringing of all this negativity in this thread is not linked?

You say in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3028406

how much you love the idea of all the freedom we have given to Iraqis and praise the fact that the so called non-profits (i.e. armed NED NGOs) watch over the elections and keep away the dissidents (i.e. the resistance to occupation).

Yeah right, positive thought. Let's all believe our current foreign policy is bringing peace and prosperity to everyone around the globe. Do not look at the corporate elites behind the curtain raking in all the profits from the misery and despair of Iraqi asset privatization.

[botchan]

24. I'm Sorry,,,

I didn't turn on the Sarcasm light. I was making a point in that we have made it easier for the people of Iraq to vote than the people of the US. No work, etc... The line was sarcasm, not agreement.

I thought it was evident from this line:

"We should continue pushing for items like these on the home front - I would skip the whole martial law part though... "

Some voter reforms for "FREEDOM."

[Robbien]

35. First pushing in that thread

all WH talking points and the idea that all "we" Democrats are hoping for failure in Iraq, and now labeling all of DU as just one big pot of negative losers

is not sarcasm in my eyes.

[botchan]

41. Luckily

We all don't see things through the same eyes. How colorless that world would be???

[K-W]

42. You think democrats want more deaths. EOM

[Robbien]

45. Yes, the dreadful idea that you have in your eyes

that DUers want more death and destruction is not eyes I want.

[Joe Chi Minh]

38. Yeah, what's wrong

with Mom and apple pie!!! And those Norman Rockwell paintings with the white picket fence and the wife and mother with the hour-glass figure standing at the gate!!!

botchan, I could never understand these misery-guts weeping and wailing over those two infant siblings (and of course the innumerable age-peers of theirs in a similar plight), for example, just because their civilian mummy and daddy had been shot to bits in front of them, and they got spattered witht their blood. It's war, man! Ain't it! Bleedings hearts I have known! Now, there's a title for a book Ms Coulter might like to pen. I've always thought she's so positive, don't you?

[w4rma]

59. Are you just saying what you think DUers would like to hear?

"I in no way agree with any actions that the current administration have taken."

Nothing? You oppose them just because they are them? That's not my stance and that's not the stance of nearly all DUers.

[K-W]

19. Everyone please dont fall for this sob story.

Not getting taken in by the spectacle of an illigitate election is not negativity.

Thinking that a puppet government will magically become a democratic government is not being positive, it is being niave.

Thinking that Iraqi's are too primitive to know how to do democracy without us giving them a mock election is ignorant not positive.

Thinking that a farcical election held by illegal occupiers is a good commercial for democracy is dellusional, not positive.

[Robbien]

27. If the label "conspiracy" doesn't work, then they try the "negativity"

label.

"Stop all the doubt of the current Iraq propaganda, and if you don't stop doubting you are either a conspiracy theorist or just a bad negative person."

The tactic is clear as day.

[BuyingThyme]

20. I too am just now returning to DU...

And there is certainly much less constructive discussion and much more complaining. ...But I came here to complain, because I'm fucking disgusted with this country and feel helpless.

HOWEVER, the thing that will bring us back together will be next year's election.

THAT'S RIGHT, next year (2006) we'll have an opportunity to replace 100% of the lower house. We'll have an opportunity to take control of our country. That's how it works.

It's not so far away. It's next year.

[botchan]

21. And that is

a positive statement! WE CAN TAKE BACK THE HOUSE AND WE SHOULD WORK ON THAT RIGHT NOW!

Change starts right here --> positive future campaigning. Take back the house, force the administration to withdrawal troops, etc...

We can do this...

[Karenina]

28. You really wanna DO something?

Get the voting machines OUT of the process. Otherwise FORGET 2006.

[Just Me]

33. Proactively revealing the pattern of deception by this administration

is also a valuable and positive goal. The American people must be informed about a pattern of manipulative deception which has been waged by a small cabal called the neoCONs. That will open the door to successfully pursuing the changes necessary for a positive future.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[blondeatlast]

75. Gotta admire yours and botchan's timing...

Admire, or something, that is--I just haven't figured out what yet.

[xultar]

25. Nope, the level of discourse & civility have fallen to a new low.

If you wanna be constructive you gotta go to the DU groups or another board entirely.

There's nothing constructive going on in the GD forums.

[K-W]

29. The fact that substantive discussion has moved to specific forums

has nothing to do with negativity.

This guy is just upset because he equates supporting these elections with supporting a democratic Iraq.

[botchan]

31. That's not it

Alot of you are upset that innocent Iraqis weren't killed today. Do you not see this? We don't want any more people to die!!!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[botchan]

36. That is not true.

Alot of upset democrats want miserable and horrific failure to happen to W (BTW, it already has). They equate large death tolls to this failure. They believe this will change the right wing vote. This is not going to affect American opinion or it already would have. No WMD, 1400+ American, 10s of thousand Iraqis...

Face it, some, most likely many, wanted more bloodshed today.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robbien]

43. Yep. Wonder why?

Perhaps trying to get an article for the Moonie Times or some fodder for the rabid right talk radio?

[Swamp Rat]

52. I'm not buying into this bull shit. There was NO election in Iraq.

It never happened. Total bull shit. x(

And it's "RIGHT WINGERS" that voted for Bush who want to see death and destruction in the ME. How often do we read about threads at FR where people are saying things like: "let's nuke the ragheads!" or "turn Iraq into glass." If someone questions this, they often turn around and say: "you don't want to bring 'freedom' to Iraq... you freedom hater... you America hater!" ... ad infinitum.

It's soo easy to see through the "talking points."

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. That's a serious accusation

Back it up with some evidence, or apologise, and admit you've misrepresented the mood of DU.

[botchan]

47. See reply # 3 to this message

"I pray for failure"

Failure in Iraq = dead solidiers and civlians

Am I wrong?

And to the individuals that think I am a mole. Shame on you. Anyone that questions your opinions and ideas is not a mole.

[K-W]

50. Your rediculous interpration of peoples words speaks for itself. EOM

[Robbien]

51. Poster # 3 is praying for failure of BushCo's Third World Order

Please get all that hope for Iraqi death out of your eyes and read the post. But no, since YOU think DUers are hateful, that is all you see.

[Swamp Rat]

55. Thank you

[Swamp Rat]

54. HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! How about addressing my post directly???

SHAME ON YOU! And how dare you talk about my cousins! :D

[poe]

82. swamp rat you are the man with the photos

how do you get those in the message board-cracks me up

[Swamp Rat]

83. I cannot help myself.

:D

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. Yes, you're wrong

That particular poster is clearly praying for the failure of Bush and his cabal (hence the 'Bush is an alien' motif they always use, and used in that post). They said nothing about wanting bloodshed. And now you've personalised your accusation - it's not just against 'many DUers', but against Swamp Rat in particular. Your insults are getting worse. Stop digging and admit you're wrong.

From Bush's point of view, failure in Iraq means not getting a compliant government he can push around, and not getting his permanent bases to control the Middle East from.

[hfojvt]

62. Yes you are wrong

You are reading alot into a single line "I pray for failure" and assuming you both have the same definition of failure (especially since your OP was not specifically about Iraq), and you need more than one example to verify your statement.

[blondeatlast]

78. Your sig line speaks volumes: "Why is everyone so damn ignorant?"

If they disagree, then that means they are, right?

Go ahead and change it now, and DUers, note the time stamp on the OP and THIS post.

CYA doesn't always mean goodbye...

[K-W]

48. never mind

I stand corrected.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

68. We marched for PEACE here in New Orleans

[blondeatlast]

76. Specifics--give me one thread, one reply, where that's even implied.

Call it a dare. If you don't know how to post a link, I'm certain one of us will tell you.

[BuyingThyme]

39. Were they all guilty Iraqis?

[BuyingThyme]

40. How many dozen until you start counting?

[Ms. Clio]

56. Do you think Iraqis are going to stop dying now?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[housewolf]

53. What if we start a new forum or group...

called "Visioning Dem Future" or something like that - a place where we can formulate, discuss and plan the issues that you address.

I am so of the opinion that one of the biggest reasons Kerry lost is because he did not/could not present a compelling vision of the benefits of a Dem administration. The whole party needs to be working on this and in particular, the grassroots need this as it's the individual, one-on-one talking that is the most persuasive. We have lots to talk about and lots of work to do.

But these discussions get lost in the mix of general posts that consist largely of outrage, venting, notices of alarm, whining and complaining - which is the general content of the GD forums UNLESS something imminent is going on, like congressional heariings or votes, which are highly valuable informational posts and discussion. The distress-posting IS VALID AND HAS ITS PLACE on DU - we all do it and need to do it at times. We all need to commiserate with others and share upset and alarm.

But it just might be valuable to have a separate place where we can focus on the re-visioning issues without having to weed through all the distress-posts. What do you think?

Or maybe we need to have a Crying Room for the distres-posting?

What do you think?

[w4rma]

58. I netheir hope for success or failure. I wish there would be succuss.

But I already know, ahead of time, that it will fail and all the Republican leadership will try to do is cover up that failure.

So, you work for success and expose the failure.

[Bouncy Ball]

60. Who's HOPING for failure?

Iraq is ALREADY a failure. We've bombed the shit out of that country, created a power and security vaccuum, allowing terrorists to SWARM in that country where they weren't there before, the Iraqis now don't have Saddam Hussein to deal with, they have foreign terrorists AND US troops to deal with (hey two for the price of one!) and some of them might just object to me describing US troops separately of the "foreign terrorists" because to them, they are one and the same.

Their homes have been destroyed, their livelihoods lost, and in too many cases, they have lost husbands, wives, parents, children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, neices, grandchildren, coworkers, best friends.

And now they are supposed to believe an "election" in a country with almost ZERO security, inconsistent power and water supply, too dangerous to walk down the street in many areas is supposed to be REAL?

My God. It's not the Democrats who fucking created this mess of epic proportions. BUT WE ARE THE ONES TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT IT AND NOT STICKING OUR HEADS IN THE SAND AND RAH-RAHING WHATEVER FUCKING FAUX NEWS TELLS US.

You got a problem with that?

[KissMeKate]

63. all of your accusations of our behavior are so vague-

what are you talking about specifically?

[blondeatlast]

67. By all means, let's just STOP discussing what's bugging us on DU;

fer God's sake, someone might (gasp!) hear us!

[bush_is_wacko]

69. You are reading the wrong posts. There is a lot of good being done

and we are just gearing up. The hope is everywhere. You just have to know how to extract the BS!

[ultraist]

71. Blind FAITH vs. Realistic Optimism

Denial vs. Reality
Dishonesty vs. Honesty
Propaganda vs. TRUTH
Illogical talking points vs. logic

The Iraq *election* was nothing but a show election staged by the US. To "hope for a successful election" is to be in denial of this truth.

How can a bogus election be successful?

Please don't insult us by asking to lie and step in line with the Bush cult.

It is my HOPE that people WAKE UP and see the truth and END THE VIOLENCE and the WAR that should NEVER HAVE BEEN STARTED.

The propaganda of a *successful election* will only perpetuate the LIES.

Dissent is patriotic!

TAKE ACTION:
--->KEEP SPREADING THE TRUTH

--->ATTEND AN ANTI-WAR RALLY MARCH 19 or 20

[DrWeird]

72. "the light at the end of the tunnel"

You're being sarcastic, right?

[blondeatlast]

79. Well, I know a freight train when I see it oncoming...

Don't know about the OP, though.

[devilgrrl]

80. "Am I crazy?"

yes. yes you are.