Good Voter Turn Out/Lessons...

[botchan]

Regardless of whether there is really "high voter turn out" or not, I think that we can learn one item from this election. When our country brings freedom to another nation, they try to make it as easy to vote as possible.

Election day on a Sunday, everything is closed so that everyone can vote, foreign polling places over several days, law officials keeping dissidents and persuasion away from the polling site, multiple non-profit associations watching the elections, etc...

We should continue pushing for items like these on the home front - I would skip the whole martial law part though... :)

Another item of note, is that "We" democrats should want Iraq to be a democracy or at least choose their own form of government. Of course, the chosen path is ridiculous and there is an extremely good possibility of civil war as soon as we vacate, but we shouldn't act as if we are hoping for failure. I believe that this approach is counter-productive. Knowing that there is probably imminent failure is different from desiring it.

[KharmaTrain]

1. We Already Have It Here...

Rigged Elections
Corrupt Kleptocracy
State Controlled Media
Ruthless Supression Of Dissent

Guess you bought in on this regime's big lies. Enjoy your kool-aid.

Riddle me this...how can an election be "free" when it's being conducted under the guns of a ruthless foreign occupier?

[botchan]

4. Again... and Again...

"Of course, the chosen path is ridiculous and there is an extremely good possibility of civil war as soon as we vacate, but we shouldn't act as if we are hoping for failure."

We should be looking for solutions, writing to the media, organizing groups with positive opposition and attempting real change.

We have lowered ourselves to sound-bite talking point attacks. If we feel this is the best approach to freedom and change, I guess I am on the wrong boat... ???

[KharmaTrain]

5. You're Asking Those Conflicted To Solve Problems?

I'm not wishing for failure, this is something outside your or my control. I refuse to distort my view of reality with an American flag or because someone else says so...especially those who I totally distrust. If you want to still have faith in the media, you're either not as informed about what's going on or have some blind faith that is what's making things worse in this country and around the world, not better.

We tried to hold discourse...inform people about the truth and issues. It wasn't "sexy" enough. Our media feeds a Roman circus where spectacle outweighs fact...they know dividing people means ratings and revenues. This regime knows keeping people fighting each other takes the light off of their plundering and arrogance. Why present real facts when it's easier to shout lies over and over again since so many think that's how you win "debates".

When one attempts to discuss solutions on here, it gets bogged down into personalities. Serious discussions have little chance...it's more fun to piss and moan. In the meatime, I'll sit back and watch...and you will have to as well, until enough people feel enough pain to really want change.

[botchan]

6. very true

I agree that "true debate" has been awashed by ignorance and bright flashy lights. That, however, is no excuse for those of us that seek truth and change to be silent.

It is all to often that I remain silent as well because most debate on-line or elsewhere is reduced to slander and curse.

The silent majority can change this...

[KharmaTrain]

8. I Applaud Your Optimism

In a perfect world, truth would have come forward and driven these oxygen thieves from our lives, but it isn't.

There are those of us who aren't and haven't been silent, but there's opposite forces that never let that message get out and there are few options right now available. Of those option, they're muddled in egos and special interests that weaken an opposition further. A year ago, I might have shared your view, but during the election and especially since, I can see how far Democrats, Liberals and Progressives have to go and they prefer to ignore, deny and blame than to network and coordinate.

In the Vietnam days the "silent majority" stood by at 58,000 plus Americans died needlessly. It wasn't until that war started hurting people at home...seeing coffins and destroyed lives...that things began to change...and that took 5 years to play out...I guess we're doomed to repeat this lesson and worse.

Trust me, I am neither silent, but I'm also not a Don Quioxte that chases every "evil thing" this regime does. I remain in "wait and see" mode.

[botchan]

10. some good points (nt)

[McKenzie]

2. thnx for playing...pzzzzt...next contestant come on down n/t

[K-W]

3. We democrats should want Iraqis to determine thier own fate.

Without being illegally occupied by the US.

[w4rma]

7. Sort of agree. I don't think Americans need martial law to vote. (nt)

[Karenina]

9. IIRC, the U.S. MIC

Has been involved in 225 actions since WWII.

"When our country brings freedom to another nation, they try to make it as easy to vote as possible." :eyes:

Total number of countries to which "freedom" was brought... -0-
That's ZERO.

YES, I want the *MIC to FAIL in Iraq, as the lives, liberties and pursuit of happiness of Iraqi citizens DON'T MEAN SHIT TO THEM. I want those soldiers to be SENT BACK ACROSS THE BIG POND, home to their families NOW. This PR scam is just another propaganda flash in a very filthy, bloody, depleted uranium-coated pan.

Allawi will be crowned, the brutal U.S.-sponsored RAPE of Iraq will continue and Americans will continue to ignore and white-wash the atrocity being committed in their names while proclaiming "freedom" to be on the march until the PAIN of it overtakes the Pollyanna-ish denial. :puke: :puke: :puke:

What I am THRILLED about is my fears of massive violence were not realized.