God-dar - How do Xians know who's a "real" Xian and who's a "fake" Xian?

[Modem Butterfly]

Question for the believers- there's been a lot of talk about various conservatives not being "real" Xians. On Freak Republic the topic is often how various liberals aren't "real" Xians. It seems like there's a lot of intense passion for separating the "real" from the "fake", but both sides of the aisle seem to want to claim the high ground on this one.

I have no skin in this game- I'm an atheist, and as far as I'm concerned, Xianity is as valid as any other religion and just as deserving of respect. But I haven't noticed other religions getting involved in this theistic fingerpointing. Muslims go out of their way to denounce Osama Bin Laden as a misguided extremist with a warped view of Islam, but they never say he's not a "real" Muslim. By the same token, you never hear Jews disavowing each other, and they certainly have material(Ari Fleischer anyone? Dr. Laura?).

So I've got to know- how do you know who's a "real" Xian (TM?) and who isn't? How is this different from those who claim libs aren't "real" Xians and how are those who make that claim wrong while you're right?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. They apply...

Their predjudices.

[Warpy]

2. "By their fruits shall ye know them"

and anybody who doesn't openly reject the hate spewed by Robertson, Falwell, Phelps, Wildmon, Dobson, and all the lesser CINO fundies is not a Christian.

That includes ministers who are terrified of offending well heeled right wing church members.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. You know, of course, they say the same thing about you.

Freaker fundies will point to all sorts of things they consider evil, like abortion, teen pregnancy, the disastrous rise in "sassback" and say the same thing. "By their fruits ye shall know them", except they have a different perspective on who's "them" and what those "fruits" are.

[Skidmore]

3. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

Matthew 7:16.

You know a true christian by how they operationalize their beliefs based on the teachings of Christ--not the Old Testament prophets.

[Modem Butterfly]

7. But that's the rub

They claim that they are following Christ's teachings, in their own interpretation, and that you're the one misinterpreting.

[Skidmore]

13. They don't though--people need to be able to point out

to them the eye for an eye stuff is from the Old Testament and the crap they spew about marriage and women is Paulie doctrine. Paul was a very screwed up theologian. But these were not the teachings of Jesus himself--only interpretations of someone who came after him. They also need to point them to Christ's teaching that he came to do away witht he old and make all things new. The only commandment he ever gave was the Golden Rule.

[Toots]

23. When was the last time you heard them quote Christ or mention

the Beatitudes. They rail on about Ten Commandments and stuff directly from the Old Testiment but virtually never from Christ.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. They invoke Christ all the time

But they do quote Paul and the OT more often.

[madrchsod]

4. some of them have a certain

look about them that could lead one to believe they are possessed by some sort of insanity. another way to tell them apart from other normal christians is ask them if they truly believe that christ died or he lived on as the koran claims. but really the best way is to ask them if they have ever heard of the coptic church and if not, why they haven`t.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Now to be fair, I've heard of the coptic church

And I'm not a Xian. My boss, who's a very devout Xian, hasn't. And if I asked her if she really believed Christ died or lived on, she would look at me as though I were insane (we've worked together for three years, so I've heard her testimony).

[genieroze]

5. Real Christians shouldn't go into a blood lust fervor at the thought

of killing anyone who isn't like them. Crusades anyone?
http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/

Liberal Christians are real Christians.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

Some of these so called Christians seem to be following this cult like practice.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/

[Maraya1969]

8. There are so many different types of Christianity and many of them think th

others are not "real". Catholics used to believe, (maybe some still do), that only Catholics would go to Heaven).

But I think what they are really saying is, according to the fundamentalists, baptists, some Conservative Presbyterians and other Christan groups the only people who are "REAL" Christians are the ones who have been, "born again". They have had some sort of spiritual conversions where they dedicate their lives to Jesus Christ. Which is really interesting because according to scriptures Jesus never told anyone to worship him but that is what the "real Christians" do. Jesus told people to follow him which, in my interpretation, means to follow his ways of love and tolerance.

I went to a South Baptist college and was into the "born again" thing for a while. I remember some girl telling me that unless I remembered the exact date and time that I was, "saved", (by having that spiritual experience and dedicating you life to Jesus), that I was not really "saved".

Then again, they may be saying that anyone who does not follow George Bush's beliefs in war, tyranny and corruption and its oxymoron "Pro-Life" and hate gays are not real Christians.

Who the Hell knows anyway, they are all crazy.

[lectrobyte]

10. it seems to be that in my various experiences in Xianity, that

each group seems to claim "real" and the other ones are either at best misguided but good intentioned, or at worst, misled by a false prophet.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Mine too

But I'm curious as to why. Other religions also have internal divisions, or sects, yet they dont' seem to have this problem. What is it about Xianity and Xians?

[lectrobyte]

21. I don't think it's just Christianity, aren't the Sunnis and Shiites

at odds in some countries?

[patcox2]

11. Real christians would not concern themselves with others' status.

Deriving your own sense of worth by comparison with others is the the sin of pride. It is, further, presumptuous for any true follower of christ to judge, which would be to usurp the prerogative belonging to god alone. Humility is a comandment, and the essence of humility is understanding that you should never believe absolutely without a doubt that you are right and they are wrong.

And now a word on what is sometimes called "hypocracy." It would be too easy to take what I have just written and say "yeah, but no christians actually do that, look at all the wars based on a judgement of another, look what they did to the Cathars, so your all just hypocrits, christianity is based on hypocracy."

Well, my answer is that you should keep in mind that there is and always will be a huge gap between people's actual behavior, and the ideal which they should all strive for. Noone calls Buddhists hypocrites, despite the fact that few, if any, living buddhists achieve perfect enlightenment. It is recognized that Buddhism is a "way," a means within which to work towards achieving the ideals that are taught. It is not hypocracy that the vast majority fail to achieve the perfection, it just points out how difficult it is and what a high standard is set.

Well, christianity is in some ways similar. It is a means to achieving salvation. Noone is expected to be perfect, but that doesn't mean setting a high target is hypocracy.

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Here's a hint on how to tell the difference.

If your trying to tout your Christianity by decrying others your probably not a good Christian.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. Well by that logic, most DUers aren't real Xians

:shrug:

[Ganja Ninja]

28. But most DUer's are not trying to tout themselves as

holy'er than thou Christians.

[papau]

17. Decrying others is not the Christain way - I agree -

Hate the sin, not the sinner,

and leaving judgements to God

seems to work for most folks.

[geniph]

16. Christ said there was really only one criterion

"whosoever believeth in me shall enter the kingdom of Heaven"

However, I do think showing your faith ought to include actually living, insofar as possible, by the four Gospels. The rest is adjunct; it's the teachings of Christ himself in the Gospels that form the foundation of the faith. If you actually believe in Christ, why he was sent, and what his sacrifice and Resurrection MEAN, you'll live by the Gospels, the New Covenant that he made with humanity that supersedes the Old Covenant of the Torah.

(I'm not a Christian, by the way, but I do respect the ones that live by the words of Christ. And there are MANY of them, far outnumbering the loony zealots. They just don't make as much frigging noise.)

A Jesuit my husband used to know told him the basic rule for any person of faith is simple. Love God, love yourself, and love your fellow persons. Everything else follows from that. That's what I'm not seeing a whole hell of a lot of from the zealots. I'm seeing FEAR God, secretly loathe yourself, and hate and envy your fellow persons. That's a horrible perversion of a loving faith.

Oh yeah, and "be not like the Pharisees, who announce their faith on the street corner, but go into your closet and pray to your Father in secret."

[Modem Butterfly]

18. "Whosoever shall believeth in me..."

That's what it comes down to for me. If someone goes through the motions of worshipping Christ, talks about worshipping Christ, advocates following Christ, then doesn't it follow that that person is a Xian? Maybe they're doing it in a way that other Xians don't like, but who are we to say that they're not a real Xian? And doesn't that just open up a whole can of theological worms?

[geniph]

19. I just edited my second paragraph

and I think the last sentence of it is my response to your question.

[ultraist]

22. If they say they are, they are

"Whosoever shall believeth in me..."

I wouldn't dream of saying someone is not a "real Christian." I would however identify certain behaviors as not being "Christian like."

This religiophobic infighting has been going on within Christianity since the birth of the religion. Every sect that has broken off from original Christianity claims to be the only real form of Christianity. It's a fight for power. Greek Orthodox followers denounce Catholics who in turn denounce Episcopalians; Baptists denounce Methodists, etc.

Currently, it's a major fight between the fundies and all other sects that is happening within the public arena because it is so tied to our current administration. We wouldn't even be hearing of this infighting if not for W and his donors.

[leftchick]

24. This is exactly how I feel and I am a Liberal Catholic...

< Love God, love yourself, and love your fellow persons. Everything else follows from that. That's what I'm not seeing a whole hell of a lot of from the zealots. I'm seeing FEAR God, secretly loathe yourself, and hate and envy your fellow persons. That's a horrible perversion of a loving faith.>

and very well said.

We are taught by Jesus about love and forgiveness. Has a fundie ever forgiven anyone?

[cheezus]

20. heh, great line. very coy

Xianity is as valid as any other religion and just as deserving of respect.

lol, read into that what you will :)

[RUDUing2]

26. you know them by their acts...

James 2:......I by my works will show you my faith.

[China_cat]

27. If you agree with me you're a real christian,

otherwise you're false christian scum (tm).

[TWiley]

29. Bingo !