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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 11:57 AM
Original message
Company Fires All Employees who Smoke!
As a person who is happy to be an EX-smoker, This just strikes me as so extreme and so wrong...


http://www.wral.com/news/4126577/detail.html

Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke

Michigan Firm Won't Allow Smoking, Even On Employee's Own Time

UPDATED: 8:20 AM EST January 25, 2005

LANSING, Mich. -- Four employees of a health care company have been fired for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes.

Weyco Inc., a health benefits administrator based in Okemos, Mich., adopted a policy Jan. 1 that allows employees to be fired if they smoke, even if the smoking happens after business hours or at home.

Company founder Howard Weyers has said the anti-smoking rule was designed to shield the firm from high health care costs. "I don't want to pay for the results of smoking," he said.


More than anything, I object to an employer giving employees tests to see what they are doing on their own time. It is a gross violation of privacy that would NEVER be allowed by the police. So why the hell do we allow private companies this much latitude into snooping into our private lives without cause? The same goes for random drug testing. I absolutely do not shop at Home Despot for this reason. If you are in favor of companies having the right to do this please don't tell me about it because you're an authoritarian in favor or corporate rule over the people.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Have you driven a Ford lately?
This so reeks of Henry the first.


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XNASA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's wrong.
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 12:00 PM by XNASA
People who smoked before the policy took effect should be "Grandfathered".

What's next....fire someone because they're a bad driver even if they've never had a moving violation?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's extreme
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 12:03 PM by Selatius
They shouldn't be firing people who smoke in the privacy of their homes. That looks to be a violation of privacy. However, if they don't want to pay for people who get cancer because of smoking, the best remedy is to indicate on the company insurance policy for future would-be applicants that, for instance, lung or throat cancer or heart disease caused by the smoking of cigarettes will not be covered by the policy.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. well, it would make more sense for the company
as a health care concern, to have smoking cessation classes and the like, rather than just fire people. Bet this one will end in a lawsuit.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. how about mind your own f*in business and leave the smoker alone
people have so retarded the whole issue and consequences of smoking. we have so gotten the "facts" to such an extreme in made up story to scare kids from smoking, just as they have with the terrorist issue. i listen to kids today that think one puff of a cigarette they will die. die i am telling you. these kids sees someone smoke and in their little brains they think the person is going to keel over at any moment

nobody is even close to reciting correct facts on smoking

it is all a smoke screen i am ashamed to tell yawl

but anyway, the sheep follow
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. While I completely disagree with this company's decision
I also completely disagree with what you are saying. Nobody has "retarded the whole issue and consequences of smoking". The consequences are clear.

What is wrong with kids being afraid to start smoking? I think that's a good thing...there's a lot to fear. Since you know the "facts" on smoking, please share them. Again, I disagree with firing people for being smokers, but I think you are clouding the issue. :shrug:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. you would allow your child to believe a lie
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 12:53 PM by seabeyond
so they will be fearful of something and not do

i chose to parent a different way. give my children the cold hard facts in truth and reality, and allow and trust.........they will make a reasoned decision. i dont need to create a smoker as evil, or disgusting, or dismiss all that person is and gives, in order to feel better my children will reject cigarettes.

hey

totally embrace you raising your children your way

that is the difference. i see your way as harmful, i dont agree and i know you have every right to do it your way. and, if your child choses to dismiss a loved one because they smoke, or a friend or whatever and they are not able to value all this person can give them, their loss. simply. has nothing to do with me

this isnt how i teach my children to love others
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Whoa, where did you get THAT?
This has nothing to do with raising children. It is about people being fired for choosing to smoke, which is WRONG.

The cigarettes and the cigarette companies are what's "bad", not the smoker. I used to smoke, I know the difference. What I said, if you'd reread my post, was that I see nothing bad coming from a child believing that smoking a cig is a bad, dangerous thing. It is.

I don't have kids. My father is a heavy smoker. When and if I DO have kids, he won't smoke around my kids because we all know that it is bad, dangerous and just plain gross.

Don't take me out of context. :eyes:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. if he stands a hundred feet away from you when he smokes
is that ok. or does he have to hide it. make sure there isnt a single bit of smell to come into you kids nose. how much are we ostrasizing dad. cause it is so so bad. do we ridicule him behind his back, so we can further convince children how bad and gross. do we get to whisper he is stupid. do you tell your children smoking will kill you, so as your dad hits 105 and finally dies you can all point finger and say see see, smoking killed him, told him he should quit. could have lived to 107. (yes i am being extreme, but this is important on a greater scale than smoking on what world we create for our children. and being a parent presently, i see it a bit different)

i dont care. do want you want to dad, wink.
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. It's not OK inside. The smell is disgusting and I
have as much right to my fresh air as he does to dead lung tissue. I have never ridiculed or ostracized him, thanks very much. He has no problem with smoking either outside or in the garage because my mom doesn't want it in her house either. When my niece was a baby, he did not smoke anywhere near her. When she is around it now, she literally gets sick from all of the irritation it causes.

Believe me, smoking will kill you and yes, I will teach my kids that. As a respiratory therapist and someone who has lost family members to emphysema and lung cancer, I will tell them that. Like I said, I used to smoke. I know how addictive it is. I also know what it does to people that choose to smoke, and those left behind when the smoker dies.

I have seen both ends of the spectrum. Have you?
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. as a smoker who quit
I have to say it was the smartest thing I have ever done. I think the health risks speak for themselves.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. of course it is healthier to not smoke n/t
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. I doubt such an exclusion would hold up.
Either a plan covers treatment of a given disease or it doesn't. I seriously doubt that either a state Department of Insurance or the Courts would sustain an exclusion such as you suggest.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. It depends
As far as I know, no one has tried it yet, so it's an open question.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. not likely
given that you cannot conclusively link every lung cancer or emphysema case directly to smoking. Certainly smoking increases the risk of these disease, but so does living in a city, having asbestos in your house, radon in the basement, or having a spouse who smokes, among many things. There are 100 year old people who smoke without cancer, and 30 year olds who have never touched tobacco with emphysema. Therefore you cannot conclusively link any particular case of cancer to smoking. you can say that smoking increased the chances of a particular person developing cancer, certainly, but you cannot prove that the single reason that person developed cancer was smoking, and that without smoking the cancer would not have developed. Statistically, across a wide population, you can say that smokingg created say, 80% of the lung cancer (disclaimer: I made that number up as an example) but how do you pick which 8, out of ten, were caused by smoking? What if someone quit at the age of 20 and developed cancer at 65, are they excluded as well? What about people who choose to live with smokers, are they excluded?

The problem with excluding medical coverage for a certain result is that you inevitably end up excluding innocent people from coverage, something that is unfair, to say the least.

Unless you can address the issue of how to conclusivly determine which cancer is linked to smoking, with 100% certainty, you cannot exclude it.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. A slippery slope. Next up: waivers for obese people, fertile women,
and bad drivers.


I smell an EEOC filing.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. What's next?
Company founder Howard Weyers has said the anti-smoking rule was designed to shield the firm from high health care costs. "I don't want to pay for the results of smoking," he said.

One can only assume the next logical choice is to fire all people who are overweight to further reduce health care spending.

Oh, and suspected gay people, too, since AIDS costs a lot to treat.

Well, we're at it, women, too, unless they can prove they've been sterilized. Maternity care is way expensive, dude!

<sigh>
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Don't forget people who like to have bacon for breakfast.
Why not fire everyone who eats red meat?

All women who paint their nails a lot? You know all that polish remover...
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. And people who drink alcohol
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. And then you've got to ask yourself
if blacks aren't costlier than whites. Yes, this is indeed a slippery slope!
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I figured this would be an
inevitable outcome of the outrageous health care costs. Just wait until companies start firing or refusing to hire people over a certain weight limit. I have no problem with giving people who don't smoke a discount, but this action is unacceptable. They are attacking the users of health insurance rather than the providers. You have to have health insurance, but God help you if you actually ever have to use it.
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kslib Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. We used to have a policy like that
at the State of Kansas. You could sign up for a physical and they would identify your "problem areas" and give you an education on lifestyle changes. (Like, eat less, exercise more, quit smoking, quit driking, etc....) Then, you'd get a discount on health insurance (I don't think it was very much)

They discontinued it, because the health care costs didn't go down. Seems people didn't follow the advice!
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. If you think companies don't already base hiring decisions on
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 02:02 PM by elehhhhna
weight, age, sex/future-parenthood potential, etc., and their impact on health bene costs, you're naive.

Until we end the patriarchal system of employment-linked health benefits (read Insurance) this will just get worse.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. But it's work intruding on your personal life, so it's ok.
If the Government did this, Republicans would be outraged.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Yah, because humans dont acutally have rights.
Governments just have restrictions.

Thats why it is called the bill of government restrictions.

I dont know how all these liberals got the idea of rights.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. they are smokers not humans, are you kidding this is grand
we get to hate them. they get to have not a single bit of value as a person, they are smokers. now come on, we all know this to be true. we have said it on this board. feed their children, f* em, they dont deserve the right to feed their kids. after all, i heard one woman say she visited her mother this christmas, and a life with this mother, a lifetime........how dare she smoke, wasteful human being she is

this company, these employees have every right to have a non smoking person around them at all time, smokers are simply animals, no worse, satan.

hey, drug sniffing dogs are going to be able to walk amongst us, to sniff each and everyone of us. the supreme court says so. so, after you take a puff and go about your day, shower and sterilize yourself cause you may be attacked and imprisoned, you evil pot smokers. bad bad you........waste on all of mankind

who is next. bring em on, lets take em down
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Sarcasm aside, I consider myself to be an anti-smoker.
I was extremely annoyed that my Dad's girlfriend smoked in the house around our 4 and 6 year old kids all during Christmas vacation.


But I still think firing all smokers is way too extreme.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. well bully for you
and i was annoyed at my two brothers whose children made my 9 year old feel like crap over christmas cause boys are suppose to be tough ball grabbing males and hurt and tease and make each other less

betcha my childs pain is gonna take longer to heal than the whiff you kids got

i would rather teach children not to judge and be respectful. i feel that is a greater contribution towards their future health
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. Defensive much?
You have the right to inhale as many carcinogens as you like, as does Dad's GF, but we had had an understanding before that if we stayed at their house, she would smoke outside, but she suddenly blew that off this year.

This is AFTER they BEGGED us to stay at their house, when I wanted to stay at a good friend's house to avoid the very predictable annoyances created by my dad's often-drunk, smoker girlfriend.

As for teaching kids, I teach my kids that tobacco causes people a premature, but slow and agonizing death.

But all of that is separate from the issue of unfairly firing people for being smokers.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. She smoked in her own house? The nerve!
But seriously, your fault for not going somewhere else.

PS I'd rather expose my kids to a smoker than a drunkie. Dad's GF is baaaaaaaad news and shame on y'all for staying there in the first place.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Believe me, it's the last time we will.
Like I said, they were very persistent, so I gave in. The smoking was really just the straw that broke the camel's back.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. My post sounded witchy but really--
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and pragmatic. Just can't believe you fell for the "stay at our place" pressure.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hmmmm...I predict one hell of a lawsuit over this....
I do not beleive that there is any law anywhere that states that an employer can terminate you for using a legal product on your own time.

This will get reversed...

And the dipshit that runs the company will be out a pretty penny....

Wonder which party he voted for?? :eyes:
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
104. Unfortunately,
in most states you can be fired for any reason (job related or not) unless the status/action is protected by statute or common law. It's called at will employment - the status of most employees who do not have a written employment.

Smoking, or hair color, being overweight, being gay, being under 40, rooting for the wrong sports team for example are not protected - so the employer is generally free to fire employees for any of these.

(Not supporting it - just describing the legal reality in most of the country.)
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. so are they also firing those people who eat lots of fatty, salty, sugary
foods?

Those that live in houses w/woodfireplaces or who attend cookouts or barbeques (using wood products like charcoal)..woodsmoke is worse then cigarette smoke...it is worse for a baby to live in house that occasionally uses a woodstove or fireplace then to live with someone who smokes on a regular basis.. check out http://www.burningissues.org/ for research, articles etc on this..

How about those that don't exercise?

What about those that are overweight?

Those who don't wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmuts?

People w/asthma who don't take their meds?, etc etc etc...

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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't they give them a chance to quit...
before they fire them?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. what if.........gasp.......they dont want to quit
:crazy:

how easily we are willing to give up our rights. oh a job, to keep a job. my own health doesnt matter, i havent quit, but some employer wants me to quit. ok, you got it. man piece of cake
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. Addiction is covered by the ADA
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. First they came for the communists . . .
but I wasn't a communist, so I kept silent.

Then they came for the recreational drug users but I wasn't a recreational drug user so I kept silent.

Then they came for the smokers, but I wasn't a smoker so I kept silent.

Then they came for the diabetics, older workers and handicapped, but I wasn't one of these.

Then they came for the morbidly obese . . .

and I was up shit creek without employment.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. the obvious denman, thank you n/t
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. hmmmm...let's see
you have a shitty driving record and being hired by a company to operate company vehicles causes a spike in their insurance rates to cover you so, they fire you. How is that different than the company's health insurance rates skyrocketing because of smoking issues? Is it any different than a life insurance company deciding to insure you or not (or at the very least the rate they charge you) because you like to skydive?

And yes, I believe that a company should have the right to hire whomever they please (certain EOE standards of course should be met...race, creed, national origin...that sort of thing). Try to be a Hooter's Girl if you're a guy. Try to be a driver for UPS with a DUI.


theProdigal
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. because unless they are including those whose livestyle includes
exposure to woodsmoke (choice)...pollution (choice they could live in a rural area and commute)...etc then they are picking and chosing..

Woodsmoke is just as damaging as cigarette smoke..

http:burningissues.org
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. there are many lifestyle choice that exclude you from other
jobs...why should this not be included. Smoking is a choice that is made by those to inflict damage on their bodies. They have a choice to stop...they have a choice to never start. I do agree, however, with another poster (I forget whom) that said it would be more equitable to simply terminate their health coverage rather than fire them...

theProdigal
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. they are using smoking because it increases cancer risk and lung/bronchial
damage...pollution and woodsmoke do the same..and just as severely...so unless they are going to include all 3 of them, then they don't have the right to pick out one while ignoring the other 2.

Someone who lives in a house heated w/wood is at the same risk of lung probs including cancer as someone who smokes..so if they are citing health costs as the reason then they need to include the other two high risk factors as well.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. birth control, teflon pans, anyone take an eleve of late
increase in stroke
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Lots of lifestyle choices affect health coverage. Where do you
draw the line is the question. Maybe you spend more on health-related costs for smokers, but you make it up on pension-plan savings.

And after all the smokers are dealt with, maybe set a body fat index number, and everyone over that limit is axed. Would that be OK?
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. to be honest...the company should determine that
it should be up to the company to determine the standards that they which they will apply for their workers.

theProdigal
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. Yeah! Like only hiring married white vegetarian men. Silly.
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. no they should be unmarried..otherwise you have increased health cost
for their spouse and potentially for pregnancy and children...

So only white heterosexual celebate white males under the age of 50 with no genetic predisposition to chronic illnesses who are not over wieght and who exercise and drink (cause studies show it is better to have one drink a day then not to drink at all)in moderation
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. nice reactionary statement
glad you looked at my post above regarding EOE...but if I wish to hire someone who reflects the values of my company...the government should have NOTHING to say about that outside the EOE requirements...

theProdigal

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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
96. Ever tried to quit smoking?
Yeah, it's just SO easy to quit. Just one day, boom! you're off nicotine. After all, it's not like it's addictive or anything.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. smoke a turkey of late and feed to your kids
ah, so so bad. bad you
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. What if you decide you don't want to hire blacks since they
are more prone to high blood pressue? It's a damn slippery slope you're staring at.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. So in other words it is OK with you
To exclude those who smoke, overeat, have chronic repiratory problems, drink, do recreational drugs, have genetic pre-disposition to certain diseases, have a mental illness, have diabetes, have high blood pressure, and many other conditions from employment simply because it may or may not cause a spike in the companies insurance rates, even though the company could pass this cost along to their employee?

If you think that I'm overblowing the case a little, think again friend, this is the slope that we're going down with this little gem if it holds up in court. Today it is the smokers, a good test case, since everybody hates smokers and has no sympathy for them. Tommorrow, it will be the obese, the diabetic, etc etc, all in the name of preserving those precious corporate profits. You may think that this is OK, but I find it rather disgusting, and very intrusive into my life. What's next, give a full medical disclosure and DNA sample along with your employment application?

This is a very bad idea, that has enormous implications for future case law. Hopefully it will be stopped with a lawsuit. Better yet, we get universal health insurance and that will make this quaint little idea moot.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
69. so...where IS it ok to say no???
guess you can't exclude anyone for any transgression any more or any lifestyle choice...ok...whatever...

theProdigal
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
57. Ins. companies do not ask how many employees are smokers, people..
It's not part of their rating info for corp health policies.




Yet.
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
84. Big difference is
That smoking or not smoking is not germane to the job- your driving record is pertinent to employment if you drive a company vehicle.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. So, you smoke a joint on the weekend, and you fail a random
drug test on Tuesday, and you get fired. Welcome to the reality a lot of folks have been putting up with for many years. This Pynchon quote pretty much sums up where I fear we are headed:

“…soon they're gonna be coming after everything, not just drugs, but beer, cigarettes, sugar, salt, fat, you name it, anything that could remotely please any of your senses…"
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Pleasure is only to be had vicariously through celebrities.
Pleasure is a luxery we cant afford during these times of crisis!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. than also fire ALL blueeyed light skinned people who vacation on the beach
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 12:35 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
because they are a high risk of getting cancer and while your at it also all those who use them cancer causing household cleaning products and beauty products and all those who don't walk, ride a bycicle or horse to get around town!


i say, fuck paying health costs for all those retentive beautiful fun-in-the-sunners!
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gypsy11 Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
25. I am a X- smoker
It will be 7 years smoke free for me in May.
I'm one of those x smokers too... I hate the smell of smoke, and in my perfect world, no one would smoke. However I live in the real world, and my thoughts on this are as follows;
I think this is really extreme. If they want to save on health care costs, then don't offer the smokers insurance. But to fire them? That's just really extreme and unfair. IMO.
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illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. Reporter said that CNN
used to require their employees sign a paper stating they didn't smoke before they would be hired but discontinued it when faced by legal challenges.
I'm sure the same thing will happen with this company since they are taking it a step further.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
39. Hmm... can they fire people who overeat?
"We examined your urine and see that you've exceeded your quota of transfats. Why should we have to pay if you have a heart attack? You're fired!!"

It's no different.

Can they put a little device in your car that will radio the company and tell them you're speeding? Because if you die in a car accident, they'll have to pay higher insurance costs.

I hope these companies don't get away with this. What a terrible precedent.

(When I was a teenager, I was so appalled at the idea of drug testing I vowed *never* to take a drug test for a job that I didn't feel justified it (for airline pilots etc it's different), even though I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. Good thing I'm self-employed, because I wouldn't be hired now.)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. The real reason insurance rates are so high is Big Healthcare
drug co.'s just hiked prices, HMO chains like the one that made Frist's family fortune, etc. Can't blame it on those good repuke Pioneers, though, now can we?

Smokers are such a convenient scapegoat, since they've been subjected to nearly as heavy a barrage of negative publicity as have terrorists (seriously, does your state Health Dept. fund an anti-terrorist ad campaign?).
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
49. What could be next
Company founder Howard Weyers has said the anti-smoking rule was designed to shield the firm from high health care costs. "I don't want to pay for the results of smoking," he said.




If you are going to discriminate against smokers what could be next to work on health care costs.

1) Only hire males, rates are lower

2) Diet, fire anyone who is consuming too much unhealthy food

3) Do not allow sex, since there is no form of birth control that is 100% effective children might be the result, children get taken to the doctor and sometimes get sick and could cause higher health care cost

4) Required fitness training (off work hours of course, and at employee expense of course) training to be submitted and approved by management and random training inspections

These are just a few places this company could go to protect itself from high health care costs, I am sure there is even more privacy and basic human respect that can be violated if they put their minds to it.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
54. I find this company's "policy" to be outrageous...
...and I don't smoke and never have.

This could lead to some very nasty business with other companies in the future if this policy goes unchallenged. Imagine Fundy business owners applying this principle to lifestyle choices they find "unhealthy" - or greedy corporate head honchos "profiling" their pool of employees for health risks and simply dismissing/firing all those that fall outside the parameters of some cold statistical model. Ugly stuff, coming soon to a business near you.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
58. Guess who's probably next?
If outside-of-work personal choices that impact health costs are grounds for termination, about 40+% of the population is fairly vulnerable. I think in both instances it is totally ridiculous and unfair.
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Virginia Dem Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. how about this one next
Company fires all blacks due to the possibility of sickle cell anemia.Gotta keep those health costs down.

This is a dangerous precedent if it stands....which it won't.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
60. fascism in action....
Government by corporation, and if you don't like it, you must hate Amerika.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
61. What's next? Losing your job due to high cholesterol?
I find this to be extremely intrusive and scary. Many of us tend to dislike the idea of government butting into our personal lives, shouldn't we be just as hesitant when corporations want to control our personal behavior?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. As an employer...
I do consider if someone is in good health if I hire them. Research has shown that smokers miss far more work than non-smokers due to illness.

If I pay to train someone, pay for workman's comp, payroll taxes, etc. I'd rather have a reliable employee that doesn't call in sick excessively.

It's not a moral issue but a bottom line/profit margin issue. My small business is not a non-profit charity, we are a for profit business and shouldn't be forced to take on low producing employees.

Smoking poses major health risks, not just lung cancer, although lung cancer is the #1 killer of women.

I had an employee recently that I had to fire because he missed so much work due to drug use. He was a very intelligent person, but he would disappear for days at a time and put us behind schedule, which costs us. We don't do drug testing and don't care what people do on their own time, but if it interferes with their productivity, we terminate them.

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Suziq Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Smokers Miss More Work???
Puleeze! Where the hell do you people get this crap! I am a smoker and have never called in sick for a "smoking related illness" unless you consider stomach flu an effect of smoking. Tell that to Mr. Suziq who does not smoke and caught it from me.

My company charges me extra on my health insurance because I smoke. I have no problem with this. But, who is next????

:smoke:
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Maybe you are one of the exceptions
I'll have to look for the research I've read in the past but it is common knowledge that smoking suppresses the immune system. Smokers pick up more illnesses than non-smokers.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Come on! That's just crap.
Smokers don't call in sick more often than non-smokers.

I'll tell you where you get more people calling in sick, from people who have kids.

The kids come home from school or day care and give the nice flu/cold to the parent who usually brings it to work and passes it on to the co-workers.

When I was working for a large company, it was the parents with young kids that were always sick!

And when they came to work, I kept away from them.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Science and Medicine shows otherwise
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 02:52 PM by ultraist
Smokers do get sick more often, thus call in sick more frequently (I'll look for specific studies on that as well).

Smoking DOES depress the immune system. If you think smoking does not affect your health, you are not well informed on the medical research that clearly demonstrates otherwise.

Reputable research is plentiful on this. Here is one study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6633406&dopt=Abstract
Effects of cigarette smoking on the immune system. Follow-up studies in normal subjects after cessation of smoking.

Hersey P, Prendergast D, Edwards A.

Previous reports of an association between cigarette smoking and the depression of immune function were investigated by studies of 35 subjects before, and three months after, they had ceased to smoke cigarettes. The studies included tests of natural killer cell (NK) activity against several target cells and the measurement of immunoglobulin levels in sera and saliva. Similar tests were conducted on 29 control subjects who continued to smoke. The results indicated a significant decrease in lymphocyte counts and a significant increase in NK activity against cultured melanoma cells in subjects who ceased smoking. Serum IgG and IgM levels rose significantly in those who ceased smoking cigarettes, but there was no change in IgA levels. Similar increases in immunoglobulin levels (IgA and IgG) in mucosal secretions (saliva) were noted after cessation of smoking. The NK activity and immunoglobulin levels of smokers who continued to smoke did not show significant changes. These results were consistent with the reversal of changes in immune function associated with smoking. We suggest that these findings may provide further insight into the association of smoking with an increased incidence of certain malignant diseases and respiratory infections.

According to the UCBerkely Wellness Center, smoking does depress the immune system:
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/fw/fwLon16Immunity.html
What does smoking do to immunity?

Part of the reason smokers are at risk for lung cancer and respiratory diseases may be that smoking suppresses immune cells. When smokers quit, immune activity begins to improve within 30 days
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Well, I'll tell you what. Eating McDonald's hamburgers too often
will suppress your immune system as well.
See Supersize Me ?

Do you keep track of your employees who eat at McDonald's too much as well?

Why don't you force them to have a test about the number of lymphocytes, that would be a more accurate measurement about who is going to get sick.

And one other thing. Just because your immune system is not 100% as good as Joe Blow's, does not necessarily mean you are going to be sick more often than him. If Joe is exposed to more viruses and germs, he is going to get sick more often.

I can't stand you anti-smoking zealots.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Sorry you don't believe that smoking is very unhealthy
Science and medicine show that it is extremely harmful to your health. In fact, regular smoking is more harmful than recreational drug use or social drinking. It's also more damaging than poor nutrition, aside from extreme obesity.

I took care of my father and a very close friend of 20 years who died from lung cancer, from SMOKING. It is a very ugly disease. To smoke regularly, is suicidal.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Whatever.
Smoking VERY unhealthy for some.
Drinking is VERY unhealthy for others.
Overeating is VERY unhealthy for many.

I'm not saying smoking is harmless, but it's my choice not yours. You are choosing to single it out because you have personal reasons.

You are complaining about loss of work, when by your own statistics, it may only be a difference of a few days a year. (I don't believe your numbers, but that's another story.)
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. some numbers...
The smoker is sick more often, explaining why he misses an average of 7½ work days per year, usually with a loss of pay, while the non-smoker will miss only 4½ days. http://www.nutri.com/smoking/

It has been estimated that parents of children in formal child care can expect an infant to be ill nine to ten times a year, and other preschool-aged children to be ill six to seven times a year http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/fm1/fm34av.html



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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Heatlh/employment issues of smoking
http://www.smokeatwork.org/factsheet6.htm
2. HAZARDS OF SMOKING
2.1 Tobacco smoke is made up of over four thousand different chemicals which are released into the air as particles and gases. These chemicals include about sixty substances known or suspected of being carcinogenic.

2.2 Carbon monoxide is a poisonous gas found in relatively high concentration in cigarette smoke. It combines readily with haemoglobin, the oxygen carrying substance in the blood. Carbon monoxide is therefore particularly harmful during pregnancy as it reduces the amount of oxygen being carried to the uterus and foetus.

2.5 Every year over one hundred thousand smokers die early because of diseases related to smoking. Most of these deaths are from coronary heart disease, lung cancer, chronic bronchitis and emphysema.

3. EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS RELATED TO SMOKING
3.1 Smokers take about twice as much sick leave as non-smokers - nationally approximately fifty million working days are lost each year as a consequence of smoking.


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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. an average smoker (30 cigs a day, pack and half) misses 3 more days a year
then a non smoker on the average. While it sounds much more serious to say almost double we are talking 4.5 days as opposed to 7.5 days...meaning if your company (like mine) allows 1 sick day per month neither the smoker or the non-smoker uses all of their sick days in a year...

No studies show how much IF ANY more days are missed by lower then average (meaning under a pack and half a day)smokers miss from work.

Lumping all smokers together is the equivalent of lumping someone who is 10 lbs overweight in w/someone who is 100 lbs overweight and claiming the same conclusions about their health.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Just because the young child is sick, doesn't mean the parent will call in
Your numbers do not show that parents of very young children call in sick more often than smokers, it only shows that very young children get sick more often than older children. Many parents of very young children have babysitters or other family members to care for their young sick child. At least half of these parents have spouses to share the load of child care.

It's also limited to only very young children (infants in daycare and toddlers in preschool).

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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. and it showed that women were much more likely then men to stay home..
Working mothers missed 7.9 days of work on average in 1990 (6.5 days in 1987) to attend to personal or family demands. In families with at least one preschool child, workdays missed for personal or family demands were much higher, averaging 25.1 days (20.5 days in 1987). Conversely, working women with no children lost only 2.3 workdays in 1990. For full-time paid working men, time lost due to personal or family obligations hardly changed over the period (averaging around one day lost in 1990 among families with children, and only 0.8 days among those without children).(1)Chart B Average days lost by full-time paid workers, 1990.Source:Labour Force SurveyAmong the reasons for the higher absence levels among working mothers, the persistence of traditional practices appears to be important. Years ago, when few women held jobs outside of the home, they generally handled most family responsibilities, such as caring for a sick child or other dependant, or taking a child to see a doctor or dentist. It appears that this division of parental responsibilities has not file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (3 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>
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Absences from work revisited (IS 921 A5)changed over the years in spite of the shift towards equality in responsibility for family financial support. Variations by industryThere are significant differences among the major industries with respect to the percentage of workers reporting a personal absence during an average week, as well as differences in the mix of reasons for these absences. The nature and demands of the job, and the sex composition of the industry workforce are two important factors accounting for these variations. In 1990, absence levels in the goods-producing sector were only marginally higher than in the service-producing sector. For example, 6.6% of full-time workers reported some absence in any given week in the goods-producing sector, resulting in an average of 9.8 days lost, compared with 6.4% in the service-producing sector, and 9.1 days lost (Table 2). However, workdays missed due to illness or disability featured prominently in the more hazardous and physically demanding goods-producing industries. Absences for these reasons accounted for 82% (8 days) of total time missed by employees in the goods sector, compared with about 67% (6.1 days) in the service industries. By contrast, in the service sector, which has a larger proportion of women workers, more work time was missed as a result of personal or family responsibilities (3.1 days versus 1.9 days in the goods sector). Table 2 Absence rates of full-time paid workers by province, industry and occupation, 1990.*Source:Labour Force Survey*Incidence = (no of workers absent ÷ total employed) x 100. Inactivity rate = (no. of hours absent ÷ no. of hours usually worked) x 100. Days lost per worker = inactivity rate x no. of working days in year (250 in this study).Among industry groups, absences were highest in public administration, followed closely by manufacturing. A full 8% of public servants were absent from work for personal reasons for all or part of any given week in 1990, averaging 10.8 days off the job during the year. In manufacturing, 7% were absent for an average of 10.5 days. The large proportion of women in public administration no doubt contributes to the higher absence levels in that industry. High absence rates in the manufacturing industry may partly be traced to the hazards of the job, and to the generally older age levels of the workforce. In addition, both industries are highly unionized. The lowest incidence of worker absence for personal reasons was in agriculture, where only 4.2% reported some absence in any given week in 1990 for an average of only 5.8 days lost during the year. The same reason that drives paid agriculture workers to work long workweeks (See G.L. Cohen's, "Hard file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (4 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>
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Absences from work revisited (IS 921 A5)at work," in this issue), also appears to underlie the low levels of absences in this industry. The seasonal nature of agricultural work, and the limited periods in the year during which paid workers are employed on a full-time basis in the industry, no doubt contribute to these exceptionally low results. Chart C Average days lost by full-time paid workers for personal and family reasons, 1990.Source:Labour Force SurveyAt a more detailed industry level, the highest number of workdays lost were recorded by employees in health and social services (14.3 days per worker in 1990) and in banks and other financial institutions (11.7 days). This reflects the predominance of women in these industries. Absences related to personel or family responsibilities averaged 5.9 days in banks and other financial institutions, and 5.3 days in health and social services. In these two industries, about twice as many days were lost for these reasons on average in 1990 as in all industries combined (2.7 days). In health and social services, the stresses associated with the jobs and the peculiarities of the working arrangements, such as extended hours, shift work, and greater exposure to illness may also have contributed to raise the number of days lost due to illness or disability (8.9 days per worker in 1990). Compared with 1987, every major industry, except transportation, communication and other utilities, recorded a greater incidence of personal absence in 1990, as well as a higher inactivity rate and an increase in the number of days lost per worker. In transportation, communication and other utilities, these absence indicators remained unchanged from 1987. Variations by occupationWorkers in "white-collar" occupations, as a group, continued to report lower absence levels than "blue-collar" workers in 1990 (Table 2). Workers in both groups saw their absence levels rise between 1987 and 1990, but the gap narrowed due to a greater number of absences related to personal or family responsibilities among white-collar workers. In 1990, about 6.3% of white-collar workers missed work for personal reasons for all or part of a typical week, for an average of 8.8 days lost per worker per year. In contrast, 6.7% of blue-collar workers reported an absence each week, and the resulting workdays lost amounted to 10.6 days per worker during the year. Not surprisingly, 85% of days lost among blue-collar workers resulted from illness or disability, compared with only 63% among white-collar workers. Among white-collar workers, the lowest number of days lost in 1990 was in sales occupations (6.9 days) file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (5 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>
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Absences from work revisited (IS 921 A5)followed by managerial and professional occupations (7.9 days per worker). Workers in clerical jobs reported the greatest number of days lost (16.4 days). For blue-collar workers, the lowest number was found in primary occupations (7.7 days), while workers in processing, machining and fabricating had the highest (11.6 days). Variations by provinceAbsence levels vary by province. The tendency to miss work, as well as the amount of work time lost for personal reasons increased in all provinces between 1987 and 1990, except British Columbia where they fell. Full-time paid workers in Manitoba continued to exhibit the highest work absence incidence in 1990 (7.6%), while workers in the province of Saskatchewan (5.8%) showed the least tendency to miss work. In terms of time lost, however, Quebec workers remained the most likely to miss workdays for personal reasons (10.5 days in 1990 versus 9.8 days in 1987), with virtually all the growth in days lost caused by absences due to personal or family responsibilities. Workers in Alberta and Saskatchewan continued to record the lowest number of workdays missed (7.3 and 8.0 days respectively in 1990). ConclusionOver the years, workers across the country have negotiated contract clauses improving their leave entitlements for personal reasons. At the same time, more women with children have entered the labour force. It is therefore difficult to estimate how much of the overall rise in absence levels is due to better entitlements or greater usage, and how much is due to the increased presence of dual-earner families and single parents in the workforce. Time lost from work on account of illness or disability has changed very little over the past 14 years (oscillating around 6.5 days per year among full-time paid men workers, and around 7 days among women workers). Several factors may have contributed to slow the growth of work absences due to illness or disability. Notable changes include corporate programs designed to improve health (such as drug and alcohol abuse control programs, and the provision of smoke-free working environments), government regulations relating to working conditions, and a growing awareness on the part of workers, and the population at large, of the importance of a healthy lifestyle. Days lost from work for personal or family-related responsibilities, however, have almost tripled over the same period. But this increase appears to largely reflect the fact that more and more mothers (especially with preschool children) are joining the paid workforce. For many working couples and single parents, the challenge of effectively balancing work and family responsibilities remains a problem. But even if there was a more equitable sharing of family responsibilities between working parents, the reduction of overall absenteeism would require the combined efforts of employers, employees and society at large. file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (6 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>
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Absences from work revisited (IS 921 A5)Table Update for 1991: Absence rates of full-time paid workers by sex, industry and occupation.*Source: Labour Force Survey*Incidence = (no of workers absent ÷ total employed) x 100. Inactivity rate = (no. of hours absent ÷ no. of hours usually worked) x 100. Days lost per worker = inactivity rate x no. of working days in year (250 in this study).Data source, coverage, definitions and measurementsData sourceThis study is based on Statistics Canada's Labour Force Survey (LFS) annual average data. CoverageCovered in this study are the 8.7 million full-time paid workers holding one job in any given week in 1990. Excluded are part-time paid workers, because their work schedules generally permit more opportunity to attend to personal or family demands than full-time workers. Self-employed and unpaid family workers are also excluded because they generally control their work schedules. Multiple jobholders are excluded because, using LFS data it is technically impossible to allocate time lost, and the reason, to the various jobs. DefinitionsAbsences from work for personal reasons are split into two components in the LFS: "absences due to own illness or disability," and absences due to "personal or family responsibilities." These two types of absences represented about a third of all work time lost every week in 1990 among full-time paid workers. Vacations are not counted. MeasuresThree measures of absence are used in this study. file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (7 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>
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Absences from work revisited (IS 921 A5)qThe incidence is the percentage of full-time paid workers reporting some absence in any given week of the year. In this measure, the length of work absence - whether an hour, a day, or the full week - is irrelevant. qThe inactivity rate shows the hours lost as a proportion of the scheduled or "usual" weekly hours of all full-time paid workers. It takes into account both the frequency and length of absence. qDays lost per worker in the year is derived from the second measure, and is calculated by multiplying the inactivity rate by the estimated number of working days in the year (250 in this study). NoteA data set containing national and provincial results spanning the 1979-1991 period can be obtained either on paper or IBM-compatible computer diskette at a cost of $50. Requests should be addressed to the author. Note 1The inclusion of maternity leave (certainly not an absenteeism factor) in the LFS "personal or family responsibilities" category no doubt contributes to the very high absence levels found among working women with preschool children. However, limiting the analysis to only short-term (part-week) absences also revealed that working women with preschool children lost more than twice as many work days due to "personal or family responsibilities" than working women without preschool children.

ReferencesqAkyeampong, E. "Time loss from work for personal reasons." The labour force, Monthly, 71-001, May 1988. Ottawa: Statistics Canada, pp. 87-114. qCohen, G.L. "Hard at work." Perspectives on labour and income, Quarterly, 75-001E, Spring 1992. Ottawa: Statistics Canada, pp. 8-14. qCrompton, S. "Who's looking after the kids? Child care arrangements of working mothers."Perspectives on labour and income, Quarterly, 75-001E, Summer 1991. Ottawa: Statistics Canada, pp.68-76. qOrganization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Employment outlook. Paris: file:///N|/LHSBR/LHSAD/PERSPECT/Pe9215.htm (8 of 9) <6/1/01 7:57:46 AM>


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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Yes, mothers usually do carry the main load of child care
That has nothing to do with the fact that smoking is extremely harmful to one's health and does affect job performance.

Forcing private employers to pay for personal addictions doesn't seem right to me. Why should employers pay for someone's destructive habit? What other destructive habits should employers be forced to pay for?

Why do people think employers "owe" them? I just don't understand that mindset. Employers owe you fair pay for the work you do and the basic rights outlined by OSHA of decent working conditions/standards. They are not your daddy.

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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. Noone is "forcing" employers to offer health insurance
If they don't want to offer health insurance, they will have to suffer the costs of a subpar workforce.

If they do offer health insurance, we have a right to regulate that company so that they don't discriminate for ANY reason.

Why are we having this discussion of course? Because the US is the last industrialized country to not have Socialized Medical insurance. And that is the tragedy, that people with corporatist agendas can control who is employable based on their health.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
80. Nonsequitur
If you fire based upon performance, and you don't drug test, then you are solely basing decisions on performance.

So, health concerns have nothing to do with your decision, since someone who doesn't do the work and doesn't show up enough is terminated for performance.

Hence, you really don't care what they do in their own time, their health is not an issue, only performance is.

You refuted your own statement.
The Professor
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
82. Smokers are easy to judge
We should build smoking castles and honor them just for the taxes they pay...but that is another story.

People have mentioned obese people are next and in fact they are do use more tax dollars then smokers do. Further I have never heard of health benefits to being obese.

We don't hear of them from smokers much but the benefits of nicotine are very real. The neuroprotective effect is still poorly inderstood but proven, Well let me do a quick search.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/nicotine/neuroprotective.html

Now a team of neuroscientists at the University of South Florida College of Medicine presents new evidence of an anti-inflammatory mechanism in the brain by which nicotine may protect against nerve cell death. Their study was published today in the Journal of Neurochemistry.

In laboratory experiments, the researchers demonstrated that nicotine inhibits activation of brain immune cells known as microglia. Chronic microglial activation is a sign of brain inflammation that is a key step in nerve cell death. The researchers also identified the specific site, the alpha-7 acetylcholine receptor subtype, to which nicotine binds to block microglial activation.

"We propose that nicotine's ability to prevent overactivation of microglia may be additional mechanism underlying nicotine's neuroprotective properties in the brain," said USF neuroscientist R. Douglas Shytle, PhD, lead author of the study.


snip
The USF researchers hypothesize that acetylcholine acts as an endogenous anti-inflammatory substance to help prevent microglia from attacking the brain. This neurotransmitter may consistently signal brain's immune system that everything is OK -- no need to activate more microglia, Dr. Shytle said. But, he said, if the neurons that communicate using acetylcholine begin to die and the acetylcholine signal fades, the microglia may become hyperactive and give rise to chronic inflammation that further aggravates the destruction of brain cells.

"In those at risk for Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases, nicotine may act much like the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. It may send signals to help suppress microglial immune response and limit excessive brain inflammation," Dr. Tan added


You could find numerous epidemiological studies that show the inverse relationship between smoking and Parkinson's in particular. The more and longer they smoke the more protection there is...the numbers are astounding.
Less powerful (so far) is connections with Alzheimers, schizophrenia, Tourettes, depression and several others.

I had a personal reason for looking into this. I had quit smoking several times, the last time for over 2 years. I like not smoking, it stinks. A friend left cigs here, I lit one assuming I'd be grossed out and glad I didn't smoke. That was true...except...
For the last two years I had a condition called trigeminal neuralgia that was uncontrolled by medication,. I was taking over twice the suggested maximum dose, a nice medication that made my hair fall out, made me sleep too much and feel stupid when awake, and made me gain over 40 pounds despite barely being able to eat.

I have MS but this was the first thing that ever impaired me or kept me from working. I had bolts of pain whenever I moved my mouth to speak, eat, smile, anything. Nothing helped it, surgery was not effective for MS caused cases (neurological rather then mechanical)

And when I had that cigarette the pain went away. It took me a while to realize this was not coincidental. Looking back at records the times I had it before were when I quit smoking before for shorter times. I didn't get it when I quit with the patch, but I turned allergic to the patch. Within two days I was off all medication (over $500 month) and free of pain and my life was restored to me. I was stinky, but I will tell you I blessed every cigarette. I still do.

That's when I started looking into it. In studies (except the retrospective epidemiological ones) the patch is used...because you need either constant low dose like the patch or periodic high dose, smoking. Pharmaceutical companies are looking into medications that will affect the brain the same way, but they haven't succeeded yet.

In the mean time...perhaps they should fire non-smokers who don't care enough about their cognitive abilities to smoke a few cigarettes?

And may I note the last time I had the flu was 1982 (I don't get shots) and most years I don't get a cold. When everyone else in the office gets sick I tell them that smoke keeps the germs away. And when people are amazed at my age and ask how I look so young I tell them smoking preserves me.

Now I know my specific case is unusual...but researching it humbled me somehow...about judging people. Is a smoker a weak fool...or does some higher part of them lead them to do it, preventing a loss of quality of life.

I know there are serious risks...though another subject could be how we grow it and make our cigarettes. (Countries with much higher smoking rates like Japan, Israel and Cuba have longer life expectancy then in our country) No one who doesn't want to be exposed to it should be. our kids shouldn't be. But...we might want to be slower to judge.

Smokers die but I hear the mortality rate for non-smokers is 100%
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
83. Check out what this company does and how it does it
http://www.lansingbusinessmonthly.com/article_read.asp?articleID=3763

Basically they design medical savings accounts, among other things- surprise, surprise.
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
85. Oh, I see, he's a Repukelican
http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=Okemos&st=MI&last=Weyers

Another "fiscal conservative" that feels he has the right to intrude into his employees business to save a dollar.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I see it differently, it's not a repuke position, it's a free market issue
WHY should I be forced to pay for some employee's destructive habit in my private business? No thanks. I already pay taxes that go for social programs that include free mental health services, free drug rehab etc. I'd be wiling to pay more taxes to go for those services, but I have a right to maximize my profit margins as I see fit for my business, as long as it is within the perimeters of what's legal.

I should not be forced to pay someone to stand outside and smoke or pay for their sick days that are caused by smoking. NOT MY PROBLEM. It's my business, I carry all of the risk and liability, not the employees. We are a PRIVATE BUSINESS in a capitalist market.

If you owned a business and payed employees, you may see it differently. I don't have to hire people who get wasted on the job or huff down chemical soaked tobacco sticks, thus get sick and call in incessantly and I choose not to. Let them trash someone else profits.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. okay but what's next
nobody who drinks or has potential medical needs - ie diabetes, history of breast cancer in their family, etc. Women - hey they get pregnant.

Do you think all companies should exclude everyone that may cost more in health benefits?

When smokers - a personally liberty, are discriminated against in the work environment, it only opens the door for you and other employers to discriminate against as much people as you can, wether it's under the guise to save money or elsewise(suiting religious beliefs for example.)

In the end the money you believe you are saving, could be a cost you aren't willing to pay. Freedom is priceless. I'm always amazed how people are willing to give it up so cheaply.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Whose your daddy?
I'm amazed to see liberals who think that employers are their big daddy. Where is the liberty in that? Sounds like a sharecropper situation to me.

I don't discriminate based on sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation but I do have the right to consider health issues that equate to job performance.

Why should private business owners be forced to hire employees who are lame? That's infringing on business owners rights in a free market to maximize their profits. The government cannot force you to hire anyone. They can only prevent you from discriminating based on race, sex, religion.

This is not a human rights issue or a case of employees being exploited. People choose to smoke.

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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Oh, the "free market" argument again
Why don't you sell crack? After all, laws against crack distribution infringe on business owners "rights" to maximize profits.

How does smoking equate to job performance exactly?

Do smokers take more breaks? Maybe. But so do people running around on their spouse.

Do smokers miss more days? Arguably. So do people with sick children. Or people who have a sick parent.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. this isn't going to just be individual business owners, this affects
large corporations.

So I'm gathering that you would discriminating against pregnant women and anyone else with added health care costs.

Okay, figured out who you are.

Smokers are only the beginning.

The comment about whos my daddy and expecting a free ride from the health care of businesses is out of line. Like most employees I pay for my benefits. It's your weak attempt of getting around me calling you on discrimination.
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Well, we can look at it a different way
Why should I have to pay for an obese person? They might incur expensive medical complications.

Why should I pay for people with sick children. They miss more days at work than single people. Why should I let them trash MY profits? I didn't have the kid.

Why should I pay for people who are sexually promiscuous?
Why should I pay for people who have mental illnesses?
Why should I have to pay taxes? After all, they interfere with my "right" to maximize profits.

I think it would be better if business people didn't have the responsibility of health care. I simply don't think it's any of my employer's business what choices I make on my time, providing they are legal.

I don't really want a "big brother" business scrutinizing my choices.

I also don't think your "right" to maximize your profits supercedes my right to privacy outside of the workplace.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. In your private business, you shouldn't have to pay for those things
We already pay for those things with our taxes. Hospitals get big bucks from the government for unpaid medical bills, it's called corporate welfare.

I strongly support social programs but I don't think private companies should be forced to hire someone who engages in an unhealthy drug addiction, whether it be nicotine, alcohol, or other drugs.

BTW, I haven't seen any stats that show parents miss more work than single employees, in fact I have read that parents are more responsible than single employees.

Of course people are free to do what they want on their free time, but private business owners are also free to hire whomever they believe will be the most qualified for the job and pose the least risk to their business.

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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. Why don't you just hire who is most qualified
Instead of worrying about what I do in my time?

Johnny Carson just died. As great a comedian and money maker for NBC as he was, you wouldn't have hired him because he smokes.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. when you gain your right not to pay for all of these people
so do corporations.

Then you can happly join in the discrimination game.

Imagine the money it will save you, and it will only be at the cost of fair and equal employment for qualified people.

You must feel very self actualized, in that this is coming through.

You'll have to excuse me, as it makes me sick.
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. I hope you know I was being sarcastic
Should have put the sarcasm tag in. I was playing slippery slope.

I don't like that some will say "making a profit" supercedes my privacy rights- or any other rights.

This society has a public interest in forcing businesses to take actions that may affect their ability to "maximize profit". They include

- Minimum wage laws
- OSHA Regs
- Anti-discrimination

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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. whew! thank you.
No I didn't realize you were being sarcastic.

Yep, you're right, kids and obesity will be right in there.

:)
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. It just goes to show you how much the corporatist agenda
has filtered in to the psyche of America. We have liberals, and I do believe that they are liberals, advocating that business rights supercede persons rights to privacy.

This has been building for many generations- remember "What's good for GM is good for America"
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Suziq Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #86
94.  . . . thus get sick and call in incessantly
Gee, according to you, smokers could not possibly hold down a job, with all that incessant calling in.

I have worked for the same company for over 30 years. Guess this so called excessive absenteeism doesn't bother them.

:smoke:
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Yea, really
I'm a reformed smoker, but this goes beyond the pale. Just because I work for someone 7 hours a day doesn't give them the right to tell me what I can do the other 17 hours a day.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-25-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
100. skip - foot in mouth disease
Edited on Tue Jan-25-05 09:11 PM by superconnected
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