Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail?

[LiviaOlivia]

Virginia Legislative Sentry: HB1677 - Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail?
01-06-2005
http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_virginia/2005/01/legislative_sen.html#more


It sounds preposterous to talk about criminalizing women who suffer miscarriages, but one Virginia legislator is proposing just that. HB1677, “Report of Fetal Death by mother, penalty” is a bill introduced by John A. Cosgrove (R) of Chesapeake. Cosgrove’s bill requires any woman who experiences “fetal death” without a doctor’s assistance to report this to the local law-enforcement agency within twelve hours of the miscarriage. Failure to do so is punishable as a Class 1 Misdemeanor.

Background: Reporting of Fetal Deaths

Almost all states mandate reporting of fetal deaths to vital statistics bureaus. These statistics are then collected nationally by the CDC. In most states, health care providers must provide statistics on fetal deaths after 20 weeks gestation (or at a certain fetal weight approximating 20 weeks gestation). Virginia is one of only 7 states, however, that mandate the reporting of deaths of all “products of conception” regardless of gestational age. This includes both spontaneous losses of pregnancy and induced terminations of pregnancy, though the required data fields are different for abortions.

In Virginia, all losses of pregnancy must be reported by health care providers according to current law. The reality, though, is that countless women experience spontaneous abortions in the first few gestational weeks without even being aware of pregnancy, so not all pregnancies of early gestational age are reported. Women who experience miscarriages at home without a doctor’s care may not even think to inform their doctors, especially if the pregnancy is so early that they have not yet even sought prenatal care. Until this bill, though, no one has suggested it was in the interest of the Commonwealth of Virginia to track down these unreported losses of "products of conception".

The Bill: text
When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the law-enforcement agency in the jurisdiction of which the delivery occurs within 12 hours after the delivery. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

<snip>

Guess what? You just earned yourself up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. Why? Because you failed to call the cops and report your miscarriage within 12 hours.

[Hobarticus]

1. The Inquisition...what a show....

The Inquisition's here and it's here to stayyyyy!

Sick, sick, sick.

[Born Free]

68. fascists need healthy bodies

these rich, powerful, Christ killing hypocrites are doing everything they can to assure a large crop of human donors

[anitar1]

2. Guess We return To Women Helping Women n/t

[CornField]

97. That was exactly my thoughts. nt

[Buck_Fush]

144. yep, that's the way it always was and always will be,

birthing is women's business, not the business of men.

[Lorien]

3. Freaking unbelivable

The LAST thing a woman who has suffered a miscarriage needs is to be treated like a criminal!

Disgusting.

[Hobarticus]

4. Hope this is a wake-up call...

If people don't see this kind of thing and believe that women's rights are being marginalized, little by little, all hope is already lost.

[Warpy]

28. did you read that whole article?

They want to know the SEX of the fetus, something that doesn't develop for weeks. I can hear it now, "Uh, it was kinda the size and shape of a cashew nut and it didn't look a whole lot like me"

My gawd, some kind hearted woman needs to sit this IDIOT down with a nice book on reproduction and explain a few things to him. Since it's an icky process he only feels good about controlling from a disatnce, she might have to tie him to the chair, but if anybody cries out for education, that FOOL does.

[phylny]

74. You know, it would serve these bastards right if you walked into a police

station with a bag or a plastic jar of "products of conception" (that's what it's called at that gestational age) and say, "I don't know - do you think this little thing here is a penis, or a clitoris? Should we open it and dump this pile of tissue out on your desk to get a better look?"

I miscarried two of five pregnancies - I was hospitalized with the first one for a D&C, and with the second one (miscarried twins), I had a D&E in a doctor's office. I had medical care for both. However, there are many women who wake up, go to the bathroom, notice bleeding, and a few hours later (sorry, I'm going to get graphic here) plop plop into the bowl it all goes.

What a bunch of dopes they are.

[la la]

44. WTF is this?

After I pick my chin up off the floor --this is a horror story, right? Did this guy get his fetal reporting experience in communist China ? I am speechless with fury ----this can't be real--it can't be.

What will the residents of VA do about this? Freaking unbelievable is not a strong enough phrase.

[Flammable Materials]

72. I don't even think SHARIA LAW is this inhuman in this respect. n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

122. My Wife Had 3 - This Is Truly Sickening

What a loser this guy is. This is as dumb a law as has ever been proposed. now, victims of a biological dysfunction are required to call the POLICE? Presposterous.

The last thing my wife & i cared about was notifying the authorities, (sure, we called the doctor). It was always in the first 10 weeks, so no hospital was even involved. It's traumatic enough without having to endure reporting it to the cops.
The Professor

[genieroze]

5. %#&$@!!!!!!!!!!

:wtf: :wow: :puke:

[genieroze]

10. I think I just suffered from a conniption.

edited to add: Why would I need to bother if I never went to the doctor? What about the miscarriages women have when they are only a few weeks late with their periods.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Zhade]

27. "got knocked up" - yeah, that's O'Lielly's style.

Smear the victim, trash her reputation. It's not possible she left the guy and fell for someone else after all the abuse, nooooo. She got "knocked up".

Word to the wise: admitting you watch the Liar won't win you fans here. WATCHING the Liar won't win you any information! Turn off FAUX News, please, for your own sake (I say this as a *gag* employee of the NewsCorp Empire).

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Zhade]

32. Hey, no problem, since I doubt you'll be around long.

Enjoy your brief stay, then enjoy being indoctrinated.

I'd say "welcome to DU", but I don't think there's much of a point.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[genieroze]

37. Honestly, doesn't that station piss you off? I can't watch it I get too

aggravated. Look what happened when I read the link about this idiot miscarriage nut I had a conniption. lol

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[genieroze]

46. I can't stand the guy, I want to kick in the TV when ever I see him

Limbaugh, Hannity, or Scarborough. The only RWer I seem to tolerate is Tucker Carlson, who is a bit annoying but so is his counterpart Begala. I heard he's leaving, I guess he's not conservative enough. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[LiviaOlivia]

48. LOL

I like that.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[TheWatcher]

58. Actaually I don't watch TV.

Tell us, what untold wisdom has watching O'liely gained you? Please tell me, because I'm so desperate for you to be my friend, and I don't want people to think I am uninformed.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[TheWatcher]

57. Wow, and you understand what nuance is as well?

Wow, some of you wingers are actually learning to use TWO brain cells instead of one! by the way, no one told you what to watch. You were told you would not win any fans here for watching and quoting that show. Big difference. But with your obvious MASTERY of nuance and perception, you knew that already didn't you?

Kind of like that murderer we have for a pResident. If he understood nuance, reason, or basic humanity perhaps we never wouldn't be in half the shit we are in right now.

Perhaps you could do some good and teach him some pointers about it instead of wasting our time with your content free blather?

[Bunny]

112. You obviously forgot that Dear Leader doesn't "do" nuance!

Why would his minions? ;)

[Zhade]

61. "There isn't much you will probably gain from your stay here."

There wasn't.



:D

Caustic little fucker, wasn't he? :)

[TheWatcher]

70. Indeed he was. :)

I perhaps should not have been so caustic myself in response, for to feed them is only to provoke them, but I have lost all patience with these types, especially after today.

I feel as though our country, our democracy, and everything our country has been about, this grand 227 year experiment, has finally come to an end.

And thus, my tolerance level and patience with these types is rather razor thin at the moment.

The simply do not comprehend anything, nor care about anything around them, nor care about what has happened to our country.

The sad thing is it happened to THEM, as well. They are just too blind, stupid, ignorant, apathetic, drunk on Kool-Aid, take your pick, to see anything resembling reality or the truth.

It is like someone said in another thread. These people have lost free will, and do not have the ability to think criticaly or as an individual.

I know that much of the illness in our country can be attributed to willful ignorance. But what worries me is the factor that I know scares even most here to the point no one really wants to talk about it.

There are a great many on the wrong side who are there because they WANT to be.

The thing that many of us don't want to face is that many in this country have just plain gone bad, or were always that way. They support this madness, because they WANT to. Because their character is similar to those in power. And given the opportunity, they would be just like them.

Sigh. It is 4 AM and I am rambling.

It has been a long, hard, dark day for all of us.

And I am afraid our journey through the darkness is only just beginning.

All I can say to my fellow DUer's is be strong, and take care of one another.

I have gone through many stages over the past four years, and today I think I amat the begining of the last, and perhaps most difficult one.

Acceptance.

We will move forward.

And though the journey will be full of fearful things, I refuse to remain afraid.

Live Free Or Die. :)

[Zhade]

121. i hear you, my friend. It's been rough, no doubt.

My roommate has dealt with many "willfully evil" b*sh supporters. You're not wrong on that, and that means those people are the enemy. No quarter shall be given to them, as they support and desire treason from our leaders.

I now know how the "bad" Germans felt as Hitler rose to power: helpless to stop the behemoth, yet wanting more than anything to throw myself in front of the train to try to slow it down.

Dark thoughts on a rainy Friday in Los Angeles...

[LiviaOlivia]

126. Well said.

Thanks:) :) :)

[Zhade]

56. It was friendly advice, not a formal diktat.

If you're here for sincere reasons - i.e., you like progressive discussions and despise the rightwing illegal takeover of our government at the expense of We The People (both liberal and conservative) - then you'll take the initial post regarding O'Rielly as it was intended: a friendly suggestion you will later likely find helpful. In this case, not getting sucked into the rightwing noise machine's echo chamber, where they willfully misinform the public about both parties in order to enable their corporate masters to rob us all blind.

The later comments were dicey, because you pissed me off with your abrasive brush-off of my well-intended suggestion. I can say no foul if you're square.

[Flammable Materials]

73. "Lighten up, Francis."

The guy was voicing his own opinion ... that he doesn't think you should watch Fox News. Do you always do what people tell you to do? Is he holding a gun to your head and forcing you not to watch? Has he hidden your remote control?

No. He's just voicing an opinion.

[Zhade]

38. Paula Zahn??? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Is THAT who you guys think liberals and progressives trust?

Damn, some of you people are just...

[saigon68]

79. ADIOS

Vaya Con Dios

[LiviaOlivia]

33. deleted

[SoCalDem]

41. Here's the kicker.. It's NOT even her husband's baby..

I saw this on the local news the other day, and she and the "hubby" were separated, and the baby is her "new boyfriend's" baby..

Why not just do amnio..determine that the baby is NOT the husband's, and let this woman get on with her life :grr:

[tblue37]

66. Amnio can ause miscarriage.

Some friends of mine lost a desperately wanted baby because of amnio. I isn't something that should be done frivolously.

Besides, even if it were the husband's baby (which of course it isn't), that wouldn't give the judge any right to deny her a divorce.

[SoCalDem]

67. Amnio scared me too, but I think it's safer now.. I agree with you, though

The baby is inside HER, and what's the difference? She will still want the divorce after it's born.. Probably MORE..

Of course when Pops figures out he's gonna be on the hook for extra child support, he may INSIST on a paternity test..

[WildClarySage]

7. Having BTDT, I have to say

that this is revolting. I had a miscarriage as a scared unmarried young woman who discovered the products of conception on a tampon- there was no indication that I was pregnant prior to that and no reason to go to a hospital (I could see it was all there) or see a dr- and plenty of reasons not to (money and the disappointment of my parents were chief among them)

and while it was a relief to discover that I was not pregnant before really sinking in that I had been, it was still a shock and a loss that I had to get over later. And this jackass wants to criminalize women like me for not reporting my womb to him? Fuck this newest chip chip chip at women's reproductive rights.

[Name removed]

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[WildClarySage]

12. Not a clot. it wasn't blood at all.

a small, lima bean shape with a trailing 'thread' from the center, the size of my pinkie fingernail. I clot badly, I know the difference. =)

[Name removed]

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[LiviaOlivia]

18. For the love of God

Stop.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[WildClarySage]

23. Dropped a kid????

nice. Maybe you should butt out, Pynch.

[TheWatcher]

49. That one's a lost cause

As far as butting out, since that's where his head seems to be, that should be an interesting maneuver. :)

[Zhade]

62. "You sound like you have tiny toes!"

Was that a pick-up line he heard at the bar or something?

You can't MAKE this stuff up.

[WildClarySage]

64. I've always thought that you can tell a lot about a person's toes

by what they post on an anonymous internet site. Guess this just proves it.

[AngryOldDem]

92. Exactly

And if you're going to mandate any laws about miscarriage -- mandate the treatment hospitals give such women. I had two miscarriages and the treatment I got both times was a disgrace.

Miscarriages are traumatic enough -- keep the law out of it, for Christ's sake.

Miscarriages are nobody's fault. They. Just. Happen.

[Old and In the Way]

9. Well, who is surpried here?

When you start bestowing legal rights to the unborn, this is the logical consequence.

what's next? Daily pregnancy check-us for women? Can't protect them if you don't know they're there.

I really hope this gets amped so everyone can see where Republian wingnuts are taking this country.

[Selteri]

63. Pregnancy checks built into toilets!

That way you know!
So you can tell us


And give up your rights


They've got rights too!

You'll just murder them if we don't watch you!

Everyone knows women can't be trusted.

Women folk sure are pretty there in their 20 yards of clothin'

I hope they don't dere try to brake der dem chain again. Yup


Yup, logical chain of progression when you take away people's rights.

You want an example, look to Mecca. (And I am not meaning that to rag on the Muslim people, merely the extreme of dress as associated with human rights to that area)

[China_cat]

147. Cosgrove is already

starting to backpedal on it. I guess 40,000+ emails and phone calls start to get to you.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. This is absolutely insane. We're heading for

a pregnancy police state. The majority of miscarriages happen before a woman even knows she's pregnant. How in God's name are they planning on tracking those women down? Are they going to start doing what they did in Romania under Ceucescu(sp), where they forced women of childbearing age to have frequent GYN exams to make sure they weren't using contraception or getting secret abortions?

As far as the 12 hour thing goes, some women who have just had miscarriages are a little bit preoccupied both physically and emotionally during the first 12 hours. Gosh, what if she fell asleep afterwards and slept for 12 hours? Or just forgot to report it? A year in jail for that?

Of course, if you wanted to get really technical you could include zygotes that never implanted. Maybe they should get the government involved in inspecting all feminine hygiene products for the possible presence of fertilized ovums that may have been spontaneously aborted.

[Solly Mack]

13. next up: Young girls must register w/ government when cycle 1st begins

Usual cycle beginning in age range 9-12. All young women who begin after age 12 are to be medically examined. They will also face fines for being late bloomers.

Each month women and young girls will keep the following records to be turned in to their local branches of the "Your Womb is My Womb Centers for Our Reproductive Right over Your Body"

1. Date/Time menses begins and ends
2. Degree and level of flow w/ each day fully recorded.
3. If you engaged in sexual intercourse during this time and on which days. (fines will be levied accordingly)



Failure to follow these rules will result in your incarceration at the "Center for Incurable Uppity Women"

[PassingFair]

129. I can see the title in my head...

Womb with a Purview

[alexisfree]

139. hahahahha

I know...barcode the uterus!!

[Der Blaue Engel]

14. "Products of conception"?

Yeah, sure...why don't I just call you whenever I drop an egg.

Next bill introduced: Women who have periods must report uterine lining death immediately or go to jail.

How 'bout every time a man ejaculates, he fills out a report too?

Handmaid's Tale anyone??

[Zhade]

31. "How 'bout every time a man ejaculates, he fills out a report too?"

Hell, that would create new jobs, what with all the paperwork generated by Republicans cheating on their wives with their mistresses/babysitters/local Girl (Boy?) Scouts!

[Petrushka]

108. Yeah! Report wet dreams, too! (eom)

[quaoar]

16. What's next?

Mandatory burkas?

[genieroze]

17. The Handmaids Tale. Read it or see the movie.

We are heading there people.

http://sandiego.tribe.net/tribe/d9dc1f5c-6b49-4f20-8cce-c479e4a328de?r=10358

[anitar1]

24. Check out this book

The Gate to Womens Country by Sherri S. Tepper

[genieroze]

43. I just read some info from Amazon about it. It kind of sounds like the

opposite of Handmaids Tale.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[jonnyblitz]

130. I was going to post the EXACT thing til i saw your post!!

that book is on banned book lists , too. I WONDER WHY!

[Book Lover]

19. For all their talk

about less government, Repubs sure do like spending time and taxpayer money trying to pass unenforceable (or only-selectively-enforceable) laws that criminalize physical processes.

[NYC]

20. Report to law enforcement?

Not report to a doctor even? Furthermore, this report to law enforcement should be made within 12 hours? What if the woman isn't feeling well? What business is it of anyone's other than her own?

This is simply amazing. John A. Cosgrove (R) of Chesapeake should be committed.

Someone voted for this jackass?

[undergroundpanther]

25. Womens strike

Howabout a sex strike, No sex ,none whatsoever,no tending to them when they are sick and whining,no helping him find where he leves his crap,no housework,nothing.No new porn,no prostitution,zilch.Grind the sexploitation industry to a halt. Do nothing for any male until the men realize what they take for granted..decide to quit attempting to dominate and control women's and girl's bodies lives ,identies ect.?

Make men suffer by depriving them of 'privelege'. They don't like doing womens work any more than women do so leave it to them.Let them fend for themselves take care of the kids(unless it's an abuse situation than leave the fucking asshole) and let the frustrated pathetic men go find a man to have sex with,since they are hard up,and see how homophobic they can be with a straight face.

Sad reality is the women righwinger fundie handmaidens don't have a clue they are in effect slaves.It would be nearly impossible to have that kind of sex strike solidarity among women to make men think and stop grabbing power over others they do not deserve.It would be impossible to make it a worldwide statement.But hell it's a nice dream..

[NYC]

30. May your dream come true.

Equality for all.

[jmowreader]

98. Change your user name to Aristophanes

Because what you just suggested is essentially the plot of Lysistrata--except the women barricaded in the Acropolis were trying to shut down the Peloponnesian War.

[Warpy]

22. The end result of all this stupid shit about conception producing

fully aware human beings with full rights is that married women who have menses will be charged with the involuntary manslaughter of the holy fetus.

Get these stupid asses out of medicine. They don't belong there.

[Erika]

26. Agreed

And get Bush out of the WH. Four more years of assault on women's rights are unbearable.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[TheWatcher]

51. Such a witty one you are

Here's an anagram for you.

hsut het cfuk pu

Call us in a week when you figure it out.

[WildClarySage]

59. *giggles*

[undergroundpanther]

42. men are so sex obessed

going without sex for awhile will change them for the good.
Ignore the men,personally,ignotre thier passes at bars,thier date invites,thier pleas or whatever and if they are pro'lifers' treat them as if they are invidsible,recoil in disgust,and walk away leave them high and dry..Leave the men washing thier own dishes,and clothes and offer no tips when they don't know how to take care of themselves..
Abandon the males and do not recognize thier egos.If men act out at women and try to exploit or hurt them women band together protect each other or/and fight back.!
Any person who benifiets from an unequal power that is illegitamate,finds it all collapses in under it's own neglected maintenences when the base and the maligned abandons it to it's own devices.The Ceo can't make profits as obscenely as he dooes unless workers are willing to sell thier labor for too cheap.
Bush couldn't do what he does to this country and abroad if everyone he tried to persuade mistrusted him,laughed in his face.
Those who can do,those who will not do ~bully ,as long as they can create a culture to get away with it,they will.
Don't give a bully trust.

[liberalhistorian]

99. Unfortunately, there are

plenty of gynecologists/OB's who are like that; I've had the displeasure of meeting a couple of them myself.

[quaoar]

35. Everyone who voted for John Cosgrove

Should be required to report within 12 hours for mental health treatment.

[genieroze]

40. I think we should all send him some Kotex, I mean brand new, no

gross stuff. Let's send him some pregnancy tests too. How about a e-mail telling him to keep his nose out of womens vagina's.

[proudbluestater]

81. It would probably please him if we just all went ahead and had

all of our eggs harvested and mailed to him for "safekeeping."

Hello, Virginia? We are all grown up now, we don't need the patriarchs in the Rethuglican party to watch our menses, thanks anyway.

[SmokingJacket]

117. That's a wonderful idea.

Though I'm tempted to send him some used ones.

"Will you check this for products of conception, please? I'm just not sure!"

[alexisfree]

140. a freaking tampons!!

FOR HES ASS.

[theHandpuppet]

69. Have you ever been to Chesapeake, VA?

The fact that this ignorant nincompoop is their state representative doesn't surprise me in the least. Scary place -- part of the VA Beach/Norfolk/700 Club metro area.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Just when you think....

....they can't go ANY lower....SURPRISE...a new layer of ignorance pops up! This is the type of person we are supposed to COMPROMISE with?! It better be a cold day in Hell before ANY democrat even considers this an appropriate bill!

[NYC]

60. Excellent point about compromise.

There can be no compromise with people like this.

[genieroze]

95. Any democrat? I would hope most republicans as well. I hope this thing

gets laughed at to death.

[LiviaOlivia]

65. Cosgrove replies to an email. Unbelievable.

From Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/6/194434/1328


Update <2005-1-6 23:2:14 by Maura in VA>:

Rep. Cosgrove has written an email reply to a Kossack who wrote and called him a "troglodyte". Interestingly, he still has not responded to my original email, though I never called him a troglodyte. (I was thinking it, though.) Here's what he has said is his rationale for the law:

"This bill, which was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department, is an attempt to reduce the number of "trashcan" babies that are born and then abandoned in trashcans, toilets, or elsewhere to die from exposure or worse. There are numerous examples of these tragic deaths in Virginia, many in Northern Virginia and also in Hampton Roads. Once the body of a child is found, if the death of that child is undetermined by a coroner, the person abandoning that child can only be charged with "the improper disposal of a human body".

That is the intent of the bill. I normally do not answer abusive and condescending emails. Please try to ask questions of people as you would have questions asked of you. You know.....kind of like the Golden Rule."

He didn't write a bill about deaths of infants, though. He wrote a bill about "fetal death", which is defined by Virginia as covering all products of conception, regardless of gestational age. So if this honestly was his intention, he's written a bill misses the mark. By far.

[noamnety]

75. "improper disposal"

What on earth is the proper disposal of a lima bean sized deal that falls into a toilet? Are you supposed to fish it out, have it embalmed, dress it up in its Sunday finest, and buy it a burial plot?

[liberalhistorian]

100. Shhhhh!

Don't give them any more ideas!

[genieroze]

96. If he meant fetal deaths he should have written it as a miscarriage

after the 12th week or something to that effect.

[Kber]

113. Not my state

but maybe someone from VA could suggest to the good gentleman that if he's trying to make dumping a newly born baby in a trashcan a more serious crime, that he should write a law that does that, rather than a poorly written law which could make a criminal out of a woman who has already suffered.

[baby_mouse]

120. Yeah n/t

[baby_mouse]

118. Oh, so THAT's what it's supposed to be for. UH?

But... butbutbut

This is a beautiful example of how law gets fucked up, if you want to get rid of the trashcan baby phenomenon (WITHOUT sensible things like contraception, sex education and abortion), why don't you make it illegal to dump babies in trashcans?

I have to say, I know nothing about Virginia, being British, but it seems to me that trying to stem an epidemic of people chucking their LIVING BABIES, which is what this guy HAS SAID, away with the garbage by a passing law about MISCARRIAGES is.... an UNFATHOMABLY WEIRD kind of STUPID. I mean, I can see how stupid laws about minorities have come about in the past, it's usually fear, conflation and the desperate desire to respond to the obvious need to do something with "this is something, so let us do this!", but this example is WAY BEYOND BUGFUCK out into... somewhere PAST JESUSLAND... Out onto a vast grey waste where only the opposite of sense is permitted.

SooooooomeWHEEEEERE OVER the KOOL-AID

Stupid FUCK. What am I THINKING?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

123. It's a Talibornagain strategy of choice

The U.S. Congress in the past couple years passed some law about providing health care to "the unborn" rather than pregnant women. It's all about insinuating this sort of language into the public consciousness.

[murielm99]

128. If he had half a brain, he would find another way to deal with

abandoned babies.

In Illinois, newborns can be dropped off at police and fire stations with no questions asked. I think they can be up to a few days old.

That law has helped with the trashcan babies.

Of course, that is not what his stupid law is about. He just wants to chip away at choice.

[peacetalksforall]

132. Fetal deaths vs transcan babies?

Police are finding 20 ounce abandoned fetuses in trashcans?

Poke this logic.

[ElectroPrincess]

71. Damn, why does this nut case legislation have to originate in Virginia

Like liberal behavior is stereotyped to begin in California
Virginia (save for the far northern region) is home for the right wing religious wackos.

[LostinVA]

76. Don't Forget Charlottesville

The lone liberal island in a sea of Freeperdom. If it wasn't, I wouldn't put up with the crazy housing costs....

Wasn't it a Tidewater delegate who introduced the horrible anti-gay bill that passed?

[GoldenOldie]

77. Women and Men's reproduction protest to Cosgrove

Every woman who has her first monthly menstral discharge or woman who discharges a blob within 3 months (not considered a viable pregnancy by any medical standards) and any men supporting woman's reproduction rights should collect this discharge be it from the vagina/uterus or the wasted unused semen that could have been a child should carefully package the discharge and ship it to John A. Cosgrove.

If Cosgrove that concerned with every female's bodily reporduction functions than he should get up close and personal with the actual discharge......who is he going to believe a piece of paper reporting it or his actual sighting of the "product."

I don't think this guy is functioning on all cylinders and would know one end of a woman from another. He could probably sexually function with a knothole in the fence.

[PassingFair]

131. Anyone know if you can be prosecuted for shipping

bodily waste, oh wait, potential BABIES across state lines? If we ship him eggs and sperm, is it against his religion not to join them in a petrie dish?
How about tampons soaked in red food color, would that be illegal?
Anyone?

[The Zanti Regent]

78. Welcome to Jesusland!

Are you ready to live The Handmaid's Tale, boys and girls???????

[proudbluestater]

80. Here's a guy just CRYING out for several busloads of angry

females to camp out in his front yard for a few weeks, or however long it takes for him to realize that we are not some subspecies, somehow inferior to the almighty male.

How much more are we supposed to take from these Rethugs?

[ElectroPrincess]

82. Yeah, I didn't even have a training bra to burn in the 60s but I do know

that many of us have paid a price competing with men in the work force of the 80s and 90s. Guess we'll have to wake up again and understand there's plenty of covert sexism in this country.

[Joe_VB]

83. Holy Fucking Shit....This asshole is my state rep. I think I'll run

against the repug in two more years. I'm really starting to hate this place we call Great Bridge (Chesapeake, VA.)

[ElectroPrincess]

86. I'll trade you one nutcase for another in Virginia?

JoAnn Davis is just as "Pro-birth ONLY" nutz as him. Additionally she's bought and paid for by the military industrial complex. She'll NOT EVER be voted out in this area.

[mcscajun]

94. Now you're talkin' !

Get busy...there'll be people here to support you.

[Squatch]

103. Hey, neighbor. I live right off Cedar Rd....

And this Cosgrove is a royal dickwad.

[Buck_Fush]

145. please do that, your state needs you, n/t

[Prisonerohio]

84. The End is Nigh!

There just preparing for the upcoming end of abortion.

[bleedingheart]

85. Yep...and there are some people who think this is great..

until it applies to them...and then they will cry and cry...

[ElectroPrincess]

87. And you know whaaat?

It's going to take great personal strength of character when my Republican acquaintances begin to get financially pinched ... that I NOT point at them and laugh my butt off.

What's even more ironic is that I wholeheartedly believe that if the Bush Dynasty is highly successful, the government will eventually take away *all* private firearms. That loud popping of all the Stupid NRA cronies pulling their heads out of their a**es will be deafening. Aye?

Edna: But Earl, at least those homos wont be able to marry.

Earl: Yes but we lost a lot of money having to send our daughter to Canada to um ... take care of her "little problem."

Yes, being a hypocrite will come back to bite the Bush loving working and middle class republicans in the a**.

I regret if the above happens, I'll try for empathy but not shed a tear for Bush Cos' enablers.

[bleedingheart]

88. Personally I have no empathy for Republicans

I have empathy for people who actually can empathize themselves...

Republicans are selfish and self-serving, when they vote against their own personal interests and then get burned as a result of doing so...I just don't care. It seems heartless but I that is the conclusion I came to a long time ago.

I save my empathy for those people who deserve it in their time of need...like those people who care about others in spite of the fact that they gain nothing except the satisfaction of having helped someone...

[Ripley]

89. Unenforceable.

Really now. How would they go about finding me guilty of said crime? Install cameras in my toilet? Bedroom? Underwear?

Yes, this is a frightening path these nutjobs are on - they seem to feel mighty emboldened by the woman-hating Repubs to attack females every which way they can.

Is this devolution in action? I want a new planet dammit.

[AngryOldDem]

90. Then the woman possibly opens herself up to allegations

that she somehow did it intentionally. Speaking from sad, personal experience, sometimes miscarriages just happen.

This is one bad law. One VERY bad law.

[liberalhistorian]

106. Bingo!

And here lies one of the hidden reasons for this bill, the first being to start the process for the "legal recognition of personhood for fetusus." Women are already being prosecuted for drinking, smoking, etc., during pregnancy. This way they will ask all kinds of questions about what you did prior to the miscarriage, did you follow doctor's orders, did you go to a doctor at all (never mind if you don't have money or insurance and you can't find a doctor to treat you because of that), did you do this, did you make sure you did or didn't do that, etc., etc.

The pregnancy police isn't far from reality, frankly. I'm sure the RW will solve the unemployment problem by hiring "bodyguards" for pregnant women to live with them and follow their every movement during pregnancy to ensure they're doing everything correctly. And if you have a miscarriage before you even know you're pregnant, which is much more common than most people think, tough shit. You had to have done SOMETHING to cause it.

Remember the woman who was charged with murder for refusing to have a C-section that her doctor wanted? The charges may have been dropped that time, but the time is coming when that will become common. I never thought I'd be glad I had a hysterectomy a few years ago at only age 37!

[HamstersFromHell]

91. If this becomes law, here's how to make it unenforceable...

In reading the bill (now I don't know if this is *all* of the verbiage of this outrage), it seems he wants reports on any dead "fetus".

He doesn't specify human, nor does the term fetus specify such. The dictionary definition is more or less "...of any vertibrate carried internally and born resembling it's parents..."

Hell, he doesn't even speficy the *mother* of the fetus, just "the woman".

Ladies of Virginia, it's time to buy aquariums and breed guppies. LOTS of guppies.

If they want paperwork for "fetal deaths" give em all they wanted and then some. Since you're only following this absurd law, you're doing your civic duty. Be sure to use a copier, so you don't burden yourself like you're gonna burden the establishment with what they asked for!

Reason for death: "Parents ate it." Need I say more?

[MadHound]

93. Why are you all so suprised? This is the next logical step

That takes us down the road to the Handmaid's Tale. C'mon, what did you people expect when we've got people getting sent to prison and death for killing a fetus, no matter how far along the pregnancy is. This is simply one more step in the ongoing repression of women, and the establishment of a legal definition of fetal personhood. Ultimately it will wind up with the outlawing of abortions, and the conviction of doctors and mothers who have an abortion on the charges of murder. I willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that if there is no major change in the direction we're headed, some poor woman will be sentenced to death for a first trimester abortion in the next twenty years. Wake up people, the situation is that dire, and we need to work hard to stem the tide.

[genieroze]

101. This is just more attacks on a womens choice.

Warning very graphic. I fear the Religious Reich is trying to bring us back to this time and it makes me want to :puke:

http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/

[liberalhistorian]

134. OMFG!

OMG! That picture and its story, I'm speechless! I mean, I was well aware that things like this happened, and happened far more frequently than the wingnuts would have people believe (the stories my grandmother and mother told were enough to curl my hair!), but I've never actually SEEN any pictures of it, pictures like this.

Please, people, click on her link, see the picture, and read the story behind it. Realize that this happened to far too many women before 1973, and is probably still happening to too many poor women now. Show it to as many people as you can, especially so-called "pro-lifers." THIS is what we'll have to go back to if we let them win and WE CANNOT LET THEM WIN!

I was in college in the spring of 1986, and several friends and I attended a huge pro-choice march and rally in Washington, D.C., that spring. I still vividly remember one woman who held up a huge sign most of the day, it was white background with red squiggly letters that spelled out "My mom had an illegal abortion. I don't miss the baby. I miss my mom." When I talked to her, she told of how resentful she and her sister had been all those years growing up without her mother and having to be constantly asked by people if she didn't still wish she had had her brother or sister, with never a word about her mother. I wonder if she could have possibly been this woman's (the one in the picture) daughter?

[Squatch]

102. Great. And I live in Chesapeake.

What an Asshole.

I'm going to write him and invite him to fuck off.

[CornField]

104. Yet -- once again -- my stillborn son never existed.

I know some of you have read this before, but I think I'm going to keep sharing it. To me, it really shows the insane double-standards of the things that are happening in relation to women's reproductive rights.

On Sept. 13, 1998, I gave birth to a son. He was stillborn (that is, he never lived outside of my body). He was born three days before his due date and was a perfectly formed person. The reason for the stillbirth was placenta abruption (when the placenta separates from the uterus).

Months later when I began to complete our federal income taxes, insult was added to injury. I could not list our son on our tax forms. And, before anyone says it... it was not about the money. I didn't care about the deduction. It was more about acknowledgement of him as a person who lived... a person who existed.

I wrote to Sen. Grassley about it -- he served on the committee which would hear such legislation. I received back a very nice note wishing me condolences. He would not be introducing legislation which would allow full-term, stillborn children to be acknowledged on tax forms or on any other government forms.

So... there's the double-standard. If my son had died as a victim of violence, he would have been acknowledged by the government as a living person. He would have been protected under the laws of our land.

I guess if I was a resident of Virginia and had lost my son as an early miscarriage, the state would have also acknowledged his existance. There would have been a form somewhere which stood as testiment to his time here.

But, as a full-term stillborn who was not a victim of violence, my son was granted niether a birth nor a death certificate. From a government standpoint, he was never here... he never existed.

There is your double-standard. Before our lawmakers set out to protect unwanted pregnancies, perhaps they should spend a bit more time acknowledging the wanted ones.

[rocktivity]

149. You mean if your son had been born alive, taken one breath and THEN died

you could have put him on your taxes?

:headbang:
rocknation

[RUDUing2]

105. Shades of Romania. We are becoming more like the Eastern Soviet Bloc

everyday...

[Mandate My Ass]

107. Every menstruating female in VA should take

all their used feminine hygiene products to the police station each and every month for inspection. Can't be too careful.

[StephanieMarie]

109. just sent to my cousins in VA. told them to write. kick n/t

[PROGRESSIVE1]

110. This is a wake up call that GOP Fasism is on the rise.

[mainer]

111. One out of three pregnancies ends in miscarriage

That's what I learned in medical school. And as the article points out, many women never even know they've been pregnant.

They'll be locking up half of all women of childbearing age.

[Lorien]

125. And on the law enforcement end of things

that's a whole lotta paperwork that would be forced into an already overburdened system.

[bloom]

114. It could keep women from going to doctors

just to maintain any semblance of privacy and self-respect.

That is but one reason why this is a ridiculous idea.

[liberalhistorian]

135. And speaking of that,

what about OB/GYN's in Virginia? What is their reaction, and where are they? Shouldn't they be equally outraged? Or have they also been taken over by fascist wingnuttery? God knows, there are more than enough wingnut OB/GYN's around, and I've had the misfortune of encountering some of them.

I remember my own gynecologist telling me that "we're being punished for Roe v. Wade" when we were discussing increased breast cancer rates, especially among women in their 30's and 40's, my own age group.

So, where are Virginia's "female issues" doctors? Are they going to join in the outrage and protest, as they damn well should?

[LiviaOlivia]

142. Good point. Also what about the info gathered by the state?

What happens to this info and who has access to it? And what is CDC's position in this?

[China_cat]

148. All those things that the woman is expected

to fill out on that form are things doctors ALREADY have to report when there is a fetal death in VA. Because the dr. fills out the paperwork, most people are not even aware of the requirement or what information must be supplied.

[baby_mouse]

115. What on EARTH is this supposed to ACHIEVE?

:wtf:

What do they want this *for*?

What in the name of hell's teeth is GOING ON their bizarre, addled brains?

???

I am mystified.

Are they just... Pure Evil?

[Lorien]

124. Criminalizing the Pill

A lot of fundies fear that taking birth control pills causes "hidden abortions" (woman gets pregnant and has a miscarriage without knowing either ever happened). I think the goal here is to outlaw the Pill (they already allow pharmacists to refuse filling contraceptives on "moral grounds"). Hell, maybe they want to outlaw "abortions by God" too?

I guess they want all women to just become nothing more than white male baby factories? :grr:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. We're only a couple of weeks into 2005 and

this bill is already the undisputed champion of stupid bills brought before any state legislature.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

119. With sanity left behind there are many interesting measures viable

like

Forced chastity belt wearing (local authority, reverend, husband having the key)

Creative punishments for premarital sex (we can do better than just stoning. we'll teach her to hate sex...)

Gridlock style collars (go to far from the house/husband ...boom)

Women may not enter public places i.e. leave house without husband or male relative (yaddayadda copied from the taliban but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once a while)

mandatory motherhood for women until 31

revoking women driver/flying/ship licenses

revoking wome academic titles

mandatory work at the loom, sewing, knitting


Might it happen? Dunno. You tell me.

[KamaAina]

127. It's been tried before. Guess where?

Yup. Nazi Germany.

http://vicu.utoronto.ca/courses/semiotics/SIGN_Gender_Persecution.htm

As German women saw their legal rights in the public sphere restricted there were also government organizations established to control sexuality and reproduction. The National Socialists attacked the Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute for Sexual Science that advocated "less rigid sexual identities" as this ran contrary to Third Reich belief. 19 The link between sexual behaviour and the control of female reproduction is evident with the establishment of the Reich's Central Agency for the Struggle Against Homosexuality and Abortion by the Gestapo Chief, Heinrich Himmler. 20 Homosexuality and Aryan abortions were seen as deviant behaviours as both ran contrary to Nazi reproduction ideology. Homosexuals were persecuted by the Nazi regime and put in concentration camps despite their race. The issue of abortion was more ambivalent because it was legal for "inferior" groups but illegal for Aryan women. 21 The Nazi government even monitored hospital miscarriage lists to ensure that abortions were not being passed off as miscarriages. 22 After two abortion laws were passed there was a sixty five percent increase in convictions in the next half decade. 23 However, many Aryan women defied Nazi propaganda of motherhood and were willing to take the dangerous risks in order to obtain abortions, thus pointing to the fact that not all women believed in the Nazi ideal of motherhood. For example, in Alison Owings' Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich, a German nurse named Frau Emmi Heinrich recounts how many Aryan women attempted suicide rather than become unwed mothers because abortion was illegal. 24 She also explains how a friend who had suffered a miscarriage had to deal not only with her own grief but with proving to the Nazis that she had not had an abortion. 25 It is evident that Aryan women were also persecuted under Nazi rule.

But, but, but I thought anyone who compared the repukkkes to Nazis was a kooky :tinfolihat: wearer! </sarcasm>

[liberalhistorian]

136. OMG!

PLEASE do us all a favor and email this to the good Representative Cosgrove and any other fascist wingnut you can think of. And any women's group working on defeating this bill and any journalist in VA you can think of. PLEASE. This is EXACTLY what is starting to happen in Virginia, particularly if this "law" passes.

And the line "she also explains how a friend who had suffered a miscarriage had to deal not only with her own grief but with proving to the Nazis that she had not had an abortion", is very telling, also, as that is exactly what VA women who suffer a miscarriage will have to do.

Never, ever, in a hundred, million years did I EVER EVER EVER think this Nazi shit would happen in this country!

[peacetalksforall]

133. No legislation should be considered until the legislation initiators

define a suggested penalty, the urgency or non-urgency required to move the case through the court system, (and specific to this screwed up bill), whether the case against a woman can be conducted in private or whether a trial must be held before a judge or judge and jury, whether the male will be a co-defendent, and if a jury, whether there will be gender impositions, and if delayed, whether the case can be dropped should the female marry, re-marry, or give birth to a full born child in the interim, whether the defendent can settle out of court if a pledge to become a born-again christian is signed. And it should be decided which kind of prison the defendent will go to if convicted, or how soon the $ penalty must be paid and whether or not a wealthy parent can buy off the police or judge.

Personally, none of it seems fair or just unless the male is a co-defendent.

[Deja Q]

137. Anti-female fascism. What's left to say? How is this protecting life?

When, especially after considering the environment we put our born children in to, our society is anything but a culture promoting or cherishing the sanctity of life.

[alexisfree]

138. ok I think I am in the wrong country or...

the country has a wrong resident?, I don’t know anymore, how can you image to control woman in such deprivation of her freedom? how can this be allowed? What in the world is going on…oh no! I am getting a convulsion here ….please!!!...... my pills were is my fucking lithium???!!!!!!!!!!! :nuke:

[Vidar]

141. Wiccans beware; witch-burning can't be far behind.

[Buck_Fush]

143. Too bad I am postmenopausal, otherwise I would report a fetal death monthy

I think all the ladies of child bearing age should report a fetal death to these folks once a month. Statistics prove that woman have more pregnancies then they ever realize, because so many pregnancies simply fail to implant and pass right on through us. I realize it isn't a fetus till about 3 months, and is a zygote before then, but since they do not specify gestational age it is reasonable to conclude they would like to mourn every menstrual cycle of every woman. Perhaps next year they will also make it a felony not to report "spilled sperm", a teasponful of millions of potential humans. Rightwingnuts are just so freaked out about biology, I can't imagine how they manage to propagate. It's always amazing to see how much more the rightwingnuts value incipient life over actual life.

[u4ic]

146. Looks like another attempt

to make the fetus a legal entity. And it's not too far off, I think, from prosecuting women who miscarried because of 'child endangerment' or 'neglect' (like having a drink, smoking, etc).

[roguevalley]

150. I can accept this is they criminalize premature ejaculation and

impotence.