Just a Reminder- 1,235 Americans now dead in Iraqi Imperialism

[Erika]

View at www.icasualties.com. Bushco on the march.

[cavanaghjam]

1. Maybe.

I've been following the death toll fairly closely and apparently those who die after evac are not included in battlefield reports. I've seen nothing addressing this issue. The total may be much higher.

[LynnTheDem]

6. YES those who die aftrer medevac ARE INCLUDED in the totals

If you go to the ICC and look at the details pages, you will see that many troops are listed that died after evac.

[daleo]

8. You have a point

Certainly some are listed, but that doesn't prove that all are. I suppose I shouldn't be so suspicious, but the Bush administration are proven liars. I wouldn't put it past them to list a small percentage of deaths of this sort, to muddy the waters.

[LynnTheDem]

9. It isn't the bush admin who do the counting

The ICC verifies numbers independantly of Centcom and the DOD.

[daleo]

11. Iraq Coalition Count webpage uses Centcom, DOD, and media reports

As far as I understand. I don't know if everyone who dies in a military hospital makes it into the media. Suppose a soldier dies six months or a year after being wounded? Would the ICC count ever find out about that?

I suppose, one could count the number of deaths that are listed as "wounded, then died" and compare that to the total number of deaths. One could then compare that percentage with the norm from other conflicts. That could give some indication of whether deaths are going unrecorded.

[mrbassman03]

14. Soldiers injured in accidents or by friendly fire are NOT included..

in any of these statistics. So there is another thing to take into consideration.

[NickB79]

32. Yes they are

On icasualties.org, they list this on their front page:

"LSA ANACONDA, BALAD, Iraq -- A 13th Corps Support Command Soldier is dead and two more were injured in a vehicle accident 50 km northwest of Al Kut at about 1 p.m. on Nov. 29."

[LynnTheDem]

20. Yes we would find out about it

Because we search worldwide media for news of any deaths and compare them back to the ICC lists.

Unelss a soldier died and NO ONE said a word about it, not his family, no obit notice, no nothing, we would find out and we would compare to the lists and we would discover an unreported dead soldier.

[daleo]

21. It is good to hear that the ICC group are that thorough

I am assuming from your language that you are involved in the ICC project. If so, people are in your debt for this important work.

[LynnTheDem]

25. ICC is VERY thorough

Pat & Michael run the site, I'm just one of several others who help out, but yes they're extremely thorough.

Isn't it sickening though that this is something that has to be done at all, let alone by bloggers.

The military says they don't have the computer ability to keep an on-going tally of their own dead. Uh huh. Like invading and occupying a sovereign nation that hadn't done a damn thing to us or to anyone else is "justified". :eyes:

[daleo]

28. They don't have the computer ability?

Yes, that seems like a pretty lame excuse. All credit to the bloggers.

[Make7]

34. History 101

Quote: "Like invading and occupying a sovereign nation that hadn't done a damn thing to us or to anyone else is "justified"." - LynnTheDem
__________

From Map of the Iran-Iraq War: "Under the 1975 Algiers Agreement, Iraq ceded 518 km2 of oil-rich borderlands along the Shatt al-Arab in exchange for an Iranian agreement to stop supporting Kurdish rebels in Iraq. By 1979, however, Saddam Hussein had clawed his way to the top of the ruling junta of Iraq and took advantage of the chaos unleashed by the recent Iranian Revolution to shift the disputed border back in Iraq's favor, with the excuse being that the predominantly Arab population of this region would prefer being part of the predominantly Arab state of Iraq. His armies crossed into Iran in September, 1980."

From History of the Kuwait-Iraq border dispute: "Shortly after the Iraqi invasion and occupation of Kuwait began on August 2, 1990, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein resurrected old Iraqi claims to Kuwaiti territory. He declared that Iraq had annexed Kuwait, and that Kuwait would be known as Iraq's 19th province. He claimed a historical justification for this attempt by saying that Kuwait was once part of Iraq."
__________

So invading other countries is, in your opinion, not doing a damn thing to anyone else?

Not that either of those invasions can be credibly used to justify the current actions of the United States, considering the support for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq War and the fact that Kuwait was "liberated" in the Gulf War.

But to suggest that Iraq under Saddam "hadn't done a damn thing to us or to anyone else" is simply incorrect.

-Make7

[The Straight Story]

2. Here is the info I found about Vietnam:

# North Vietnamese civilians: 65,000 (Kutler, Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky) by American bombing. (see website listed for more info)
# USA

* 47,378 KIA + 10,799 other = 58,177 (Official US DoD, 1964-73)
* 58,159 (Kutler)
* 58,153 (Wallechinsky*)
* 58,000 (Britannica)
* 47,244 KIA + 10,446 other = 57,690 (Olson; Summers, 1961-80)
* 57,605 (Ency. Americana)
* 56,146 (Lewy: 46,498 KIA + 10,388 other + 719 MIA)
* 56,000 (S&S)

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

Question is - when will the toll be high enough that people go to the streets like in the 60's? (I think it avg'd about 6500/year US deaths)

[Erika]

3. It Will Be Much Sooner

Bush talks the same old line about spreading democracy. Democracy has nothing to do with Iraq. The fact that we even allow this "war" to continue is a travesty. With the net, even the Neanderthal Bushies will get reality.

[Selatius]

5. It's not the death count that will end the war, it's time, imho

It's going to be the sheer amount of time that passes that will turn most people against the war. People are going to really start asking questions by the 4th year of war, perhaps even further back into the 3rd year.

The simple fact is the people will not endure wars that long where the only result is a steady stream of coffins and maimed soldiers returning home and where the results on the ground are ambiguous at best, disasterous at worst. If there are no clear signs of progress, if all people see is fighting continuing into the future indefinitely, people are going to become disheartened with the war because they won't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

It will simply then become a question of when do we get out. They will balance the question of perhaps staying a little longer to see if things will finally improve with the question of ending the war in Iraq and turning it over someone else because too much pain and damage has been inflicted already. The longer time passes, the more weight is added to the latter question.

Time will tell.

[LynnTheDem]

7. MORE troops killed in Iraq than killed in the FIRST FIVE YEARS of Vietnam

MORE killed in the past 20 months in Iraq than during the FIRST FIVE YEARS of Vietnam.

That's FACT.

Vietnam went on for 10 years.

Iraqnam is only in month 20. Wait until the 10-year mark, it'll make Vietnam look like a picnic.

[burrowowl]

27. There are more troops

deployed in Iraq than in the first 5 years of VN. However, with no draft, the attrition rate with the wounded is around 10% and many are serving longer and multiple tours. Not good, not good at all.

[BikeWriter]

13. When will the people hit the streets?

Hopefully sooner than they did with VietNam. They were stacking us up 350 a week at the peak of the war!

[0007]

16. When it hits around 5k the squawking will begin.

Also the pentagon has been extra careful. So when the White House becomes impatient and junior begins passing about two cubic feet of gas on a daily basis the numbers will go up.

The day with bright sun light will come sooner than you think! :bounce:

[BikeWriter]

18. You're right...

They'd been avoiding heavy fights because of the election.

[leftchick]

17. pssst....

most AmeriKans have no clue what is going on in Iraq or how many have died. Sad but true.... :(


Welcome to DU BikeWriter!

and thank you for your service!

[BikeWriter]

19. Thank you, Ma'am.

There are some super people here, and I've found a lot of good information. :-)

[LynnTheDem]

29. No, Vietnam didn't avg 6500 deaths /year.

It took 6 years for the death toll in Vietnam to surpass 500.

We're over double that now. And in only 20 months.

[Judi Lynn]

4. Ooooh, yeah. "Let freedom reign."

The world watches helplessly as these pervs destroy it. Are Democrats the only ones who can see what has happened?

[Erika]

10. Sadly, yes.

This BS about Bush spreading democracy and freedom around the world to make us safer is just that. BS. We won't touch Saudia Arabia where women aren't allowed out to drive, or to vote. Even though the vast majoritiy of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi. This whole thing is insane and Bush got people to buy into it. Amazing.

[PurityOfEssence]

12. Um, that's military personnel...

That doesn't account for the "contractors", since they're mercenaries working either for the government or various corporations. It also doesn't account for various non-citizens in the military and corporate functionaries.

Besides all that, the numbers are higher because of subsequent death of the MANY wounded.

Brush all that aside and realize that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died (per Johns Hopkins) and an untold number of Iraqi "military" deaths (who can't be dismissed as brutes, since many were patriots defending their country) and it's a moral horror.

Don't mean to bust your chops; you're honorably keeping us focused on reality. I just wanted to continue along the lines of your approach and remind us all of the sad cost of greed and hatred.

We haven't even talked about the wounded, maimed, demoralized and thrown into poverty. We suck so very, very much.

[bowens43]

15. That's horrible

but I'm much more concerned with the number of Iraqis who have been killed.

[theearthisround]

22. WWJD?

What would Jesus do?

[GOPBasher]

23. 1235 reasons 51% of Americans don't care about our troops.

Bush Lied. Thousands died. Americans think it's splendid (that is, IF he won the election fairly).

[Bono71]

24. utterly sickening...what a waste

[Brundle_Fly]

26. 1238 NOW.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

30. Based on an experience I had

while in the military, I am not sure we'll ever know the real number.
During the Vietnam conflict I was a payroll clerk and as such, had access to records.
While auditing reecords, I came across the files of many jarheads that didn't come home. One in particular stands out becuase of the way the report was written.
As I recall it was something like this;
"Pfc So and So drowned while walking guard duty in the Quang-Tri ( or wherever) Province on April xx, 1969. This happened because as he was patrolling the bridge his cigarettes fell into the river and after jumping in to retrive them, was drowned"

Cigarettes cost about a dime a pack, at that time. Why would anyone jump into a river for a pack of smokes? The way I figure it, he was killed in action, but it was reported this way to keep the numbers down. After all, who can really dispute what happened?
And so it is with this thing in Iraq. We will never really know......

[DFWJock]

31. Nuttin to see here folks,

move along, everything is roses and chocolates in Iraq.

[Malva Zebrina]

33. unfortunately, if you "remind" any Bush supporters of this

they will cluck their tongues and say how awful it is that these brave soldiers died for our "freedom". It will mean nothing to them personally. I had a sign on my front lawn for months, keeping track of how many American soldiers died, plus each day, I would put up a banner with the name of the latest and his age.

Clucking noises came from those who supported Bush, but no recognition that these died because of the lies told repeatedly by the man they would vote for. They died bravely to protect us from "terrorists" or to protect "them" from ever coming over to attack us here. One was such a racist and bigot that he had no feelings for them because they were mostly black and uneducated pawns anyhow.

I will never ever get over how this war was pushed on outright lies. The cost in human lives is abhorent and disgusting. It seems to have gone the way of the memory hole. I will never ever get over that the man who told those lies, repeatedly, along with all those who got his memo, was elected in this election.

Surely, we have turned into monsters, whose concern for another's body in so far as they want sovereignty over it, and that is not their property to claim, elects a man who has literally slaughtered 100,000 innocent people, more than a third of whom were children.

I cannot get over the digust I feel towards those who voted for this megalomaniac, insane, delusional and stupid man and his unconcern for human life.