Is anyone else upset that Americans are rushing the Department Stores

[BrklynLiberal]

while the Ukrainians are spending a fifth day out in the cold protesting their unfair election?
The only thing that Americans would spend hours standing in the cold for is to watch the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade?
I could not believe that the front page of the NYTimes showed crowds still protesting in the streets of the Ukraine, and Americans are busy pushing their way thru the front doors of WALMART in upstate NY!
No wonder our liberties are being taken away....most Americans would not even put up a fight to hold on to them as long as they have their new big screen TV and latest version of the games that go with them.
The Constitution and Bill of Rights will disappear without even a whimper..............
How sad.

[aquart]

1. I'm not there. You are not there.

We can only dictate our own behavior.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

16. That is an excellent analysis.........

I just can't get too upset that lots of my fellow Americans want to intentionally go out and deal with the biggest shopping day of the year.

I may not agree with it, but it is after all still a free country and people may do what they want to do.

However, I more than wish that we would put as much energy into our democracy as we do shopping or football.

[cavanaghjam]

2. Can't really blame them

prices have been rolled back 10% after being jacked up twenty. Americans know a good deal when they see one. Especially if their neighbor got one too.

[bahrbearian]

4. My neighbor got one? I'm off to the mall.

[jdj]

13. you people are too funny.

I'm trying not to LOL on this gloomy day.

foiled again.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ilovenicepeople]

7. What % of those out shopping are buying on credit?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That is the problem

most people buy on credit and don't pay it off each momth

You and I are in the MINORITY... truly in the minoroty

Why do you think our national saving rate is in the negative numbers?

[tsuki]

41. If it was as good as it is,

would Lowe's be selling with no demand of payment or interest until 2006? They have to sell their credit to a company to be reimbursed less finance charges.

This is like the 1920's when the stock market sold on margins.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Ok ok how many times do I have to explain this

Maslows needs column, when people have something to gain from protesting (and for god sakes they know somethign is rotten in Denmark beyond a gut feeling), they will protest

Until then we can only change attitudes one person at a time...

So you are here, I am here, our friend above this post is here.

Maybe next year, after the massive crash, you will see the difference

As is... they have lied about everything else, you think they will tell you the truth about the actual sales during the Christmas season?
I mean lets be honest, you think George will admit to the people if we have a lean season? Watch out for bogus numbers followed by local store closings, if my gut is correct on this.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. Guess your are right.....

but it seems so "Twilight Zonish".
Like all those people are functioning in a different reality.
They have no idea what is actually going on in the world, and just keep plodding along like nothing horrible happened on Election Day 2000, 9/11/2001, and then again on Election Day this year.
It makes me think of "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers"..and they are already under the influence of the aliens...and the rest of us are doomed!!!!!
Should I question my sanity, or theirs?
Do you think the rest of the world is going to sit back and let this happen? Will they invade us and topple our dictator?

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. This is already moving towards hot civil war

and if things get as bad as they may, even revolution... the world, quite frankly my dear, does not give a damn (well they do, that is why they are standing back... they are waiting for this house of cards to fall on its own)

It is up to us... and it will take lots of education one at a time

Look on the bright side, people here keep complaining where are the leaders? YOU AND ME are those leaders.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

32. Hmmmm I am sure Marie Antoinette said something like that

just before they led her away to the Guillotine.
Bread and circus will entertain the masses for only so long.
When the dissatisfaction reaches a certain point, there WILL be revolution.
Remember George Santayana?
Need we remind you what his lesson about history is?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. You have heard of what social scientists call

a Misery Index, haven't you?

I am sure you also have heard of .... percentages that have to be breached before any society reaches meltdown... or what we like to call civil unrest

If you have not heard of these terms I sugest you look them up, and study them... and find ways of compiling it.

We are not there YET... but the way things are going we will be there.

Oh and my friend read some history and for once TRY TO LEARN FROM IT... Civil Wars and revolutions don't start the day the shooting starts.... I recomend you read Calhoun's writings before the American Civil War... those letters if memnory serves, started in the late 1840s.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Compare your neck of the woods with...

Ohio, and other places

There are pockets of economic growht, they existed as well during the whole of the 1930s, hence why it was California or bust.

But overall job creation is negative and the index is going up, not down.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jokerman93]

25. Dawn of the Dead

The movie "Dawn of the Dead" took place in a shopping mall. Any questions?

[Robbien]

6. I am glad it will help the economy for a short while, but and a BIG BUT

I worry about what harm it will do to those poor people's credit cards. The debt load is at outstanding levels.

And you are right, we are a consumer nation now. For the most part there is very little protest over the theft of our civil liberties. To some, as long as people can shop they are satisfied.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Ok let me ask you something

When the Padilla \ Hamdi case came down from the Supreme Court, you saw a long and thoughtful explanation of what it was and what it meant? I did not. Most people RELY on the media to tell them these things, and if you do not know you have lost rights, how the hell do you expect that person to act?

Look true story... you remember when Patriot II was leaked, don't you?

Well that same day I went over to the game store for my memtoring of kids day and teaching them some crafts and shooting the breeze. I was doing that with a kid when I accidentally struck a conversation with his father. His father, unbeknowst to me, was a member of hte Hawaii legislature. So I emphazied what PA 2 had in store and all that. He reached for the paper. ZERO coverage

So I told him, tell you what I will go home, BURN a copy into a CD, bring laptop, and I will invite you coffee at starbucks and we can talk about it

This is a member of the state house, ok... he did not know that.

So we did that.

That led to Hawaii becomeing the fist state to basically refuse to enformce PA 1...

Point I am making is, 80% still rely on a media that is telling then either jack or shit, so we have to educate them... and stop blamig them

[jdj]

14. Kudos to you for that.

you rock.

[BrklynLiberal]

17. OK We have to educate them one at a time...

but we have to battle against the entire mainstream media!!!!
and all the time they are calling us the tinfoil hat nutjobs!!
As was said in one of the other posts, the dollars is plummeting, unemployment is rocketing, healthcare stinks, the environment is going down the toilet, N Korea is going to bomb us, the Fundies don't care since the Messiah is coming, ....and that is the GOOD news about this administration!!!!
And there are people in the Democratic party (and people like Al Franken still has doubts)who still believe that there was no fraud in this election!!!!!!!
I feel like the Jack Nicholson character in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Nobody said being a leader is easy

I have done it as an officer in somebody else's army...

Trust me that time I wanted the job. Right now I don't, but I have to do it

This is a not so often quoted section of the Declaration

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Read it, oh and by the way, as an exercise go to watch National Treasure, you may get the movie far better than those around you. But that movie can be used as a source of discusion if you know the history of the period. And a line from that movie is so true, nobody writes like that anymore...

[Robbien]

24. Thanks. You are right

People cannot be outraged if they are not informed. And many people do not know what is happening. At Thanksgiving dinner everyone was surprised and outraged when I said we are now a one party state because the Democrats have been locked out of all bill conferences. With our media situation it is hard work and very time consuming finding out the whole truth and many are just too busy to spend that extra time. Most don't even know they aren't being told the whole story in the first place.

By the way, the Hawaii P2 story you told was so cool.
:thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I just thew a stone in that proverbial pond

trust me I was Surprised, PLEASANTLY that is, when the State House passed a resolution refusing to enformce PA 1.

Sadly you think the media explained why? Some of the people I used to talk to were freepers and they were annoyed to no end. It did nto afect them, never mind one of them would be put on the next boat out of the country since he was naturalized, and he never understood why the local GOP treated him like shit

These days I no longer live in the state and I don't think I have called on him whatwoever

His business though is hard to target, it is a cooperative, and though he is a hard core freeper, the other owners are hard core liberals, yep mashed potatoes does fly when they happen to meet for dinner in Thanksgiving.

[BrklynLiberal]

26. Brings to mind the Budget bill.....

A foot and half of paper that was voted on with most of the FEDERAL legislature voting without reading it.
Remember in "Fahrenheit 9/11", Conyers told Moore the bad news... most of the bills are not read before being voted on. If THEY don't read it before voting on it, what can we expect from the general public? Especially when there is a concerted effort on the part of the government to keep us in the dark.
My friend in France keeps asking me if I have heard about this or that she has read about in the papers over there. I tell her that they treat us like mushrooms over here. They keep us in the dark and feed us bullshit!!

[SmokingJacket]

29. Great story -- wow. n/t

[cire4]

8. I agree...The rest of the world is laughing at us now

On BBC World, they showed video of Americans running over each other to get their little Wal-Mart niceties right after the story on the Ukraninan elections. You know they did that on purpose just to create a stunning (and appropriate contrast). God help this country.

[tandot]

10. I didn't shop yesterday and will not do it today.

I saw an interview with ignorant freeper on our local news channel yesterday. She said that now that the election is over and Bush is re-elected, she is not worried anymore and ready to spend money.

Bush turned a huge surplus into an inconceivable deficit, our trade deficit is killing our economy, the dollar is tanking, millions of jobs have been lost or outsourced...and those idiots think the ignorant moron who is responsible for this mess in the first place will miraculously make it all better. They have no right to be offended if we call them stupid. They are.

[jdj]

15. I will not shop either.

Because I hate shopping.

Everyone gets gift certificates from the same store from me.

[SoCalDem]

18. I did buy cat food and litter today..

or as we call it in our house,,,"before and after"..

No holiday shopping here.. We are giving out grown sons cash. They can get what they need..
we do not exchange gifts anymore.. The only present I buy is for my best friend..and I ordered hers tax-free from Vermont Country store.. a gorgeous Lanz nighhtgown and a pair of leather slippers

[BrklynLiberal]

22. Essentials are OK!!!

I buy dog food and cat food before I buy for myself..
I am not buying any gifts this year, as if I could afford any!!!
(BTW I do love Vermont Country Store. Only place I can get the original Double Bubble Gum!!!)
But as was said, the shoppers are pushing their credit cards to the limits, and the interest rates are going to go way up, and everyone is going to be jumping out of windows in a few months!! No jobs, no health care, lots of debts!! Everyone with ARM mortgages will be foreclosed, declaring bankruptcy. Do you think the Bushites really give a damn?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Wrong answer, you do not know if this person is a freeper

and even if she is... let me ask you, exactly what message has the media been giving her?

If Kerry gets elected tehre will be another terrorist attack, The Veeps said such...

Fear is an amazing tool

Now you should know what I told a person who voted for bush... I told him no more christmas for me or celebrations since there is no future left for us

My source of info and his are very different. He still relies on teh MSM, I don't

I keep forwarding thim some info regarding the economy et al... to see if he does snap out of it, but you know what it will take for the kool aid to wear off? A severe shock, and it is coming, a 1929 crash. You can prop the economy only so long, and the military spending (due to the war) is PROPING that economy. Just as Russia with Afghanistan, sooner or later that will no longer work here.

Now getting from this point to that will take time, and will take losts of education and rasiing of the conscieousness. They have managed to get these people to vote against their economic interest and to ignore the war against the middle class (not to mention the poor) it is our job, right now, to start the deprograming, as it were. And it is you and me, versus the media and other propaganda outlets.

[tandot]

30. I live in a conservative area in California. When she said it she

had this "Bush is my God and Leader" facial expression and she was grinning big time...there is not a doubt in my mind that in her mind, Bush's re-election is the best thing ever.

The media, of course, is playing a big role in that. They let Bush get away with murder while they questioned and scrutinized, in detail, everything Kerry does and did...from his Vietnam service to his wife's income.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. I had fun wiht one of those the other day

I also live in california freeperville, we may be "neighboors"

Anyway she said Bush was chosen by God to lead the country.

Well I started quotiing scripture from memory

Things like Oh, "though shall not have others before me" kind of shit.

She looks at me, recognizigng it (first Commandment)

She said... but he was

Yes and so it says in Revelations the antichrist will have a false church that will follow him, in preparation for the second coming."

She lost color, and she got it... what I meant.

She decided, wisely, not to continue this converstation, she did not like what direction I was taking it.

This is why I will tell all of you again, LEARN scripture, it can be fun to play mental games with fundies... and useful

Also... while you are at it, learn Liberation Theology... there is a reason why it is not popular in the Catholic Church... trust me

(oh and I am Jewish... scratch this to long nights discussing theology wiht seminary students)

[RebelOne]

38. The only thing I bought yesterday was three packs of cigarettes.

But that was a necessity. Today, I went to Big Lots because they had some good deals on perfumes for gifts for my female friends and family. They were really fantastic prices -- half of what you would normally pay. And then I went to the wine warehouse -- another absolute necessity.

[Castilleja]

21. I really think a large majority of people

in this country simply do not know that anything went wrong with this or any other election. It does not affect them in their daily life, therefore it is not on the radar screen for them. Not everyone, of course, but many, many in the US.

[SmokingJacket]

33. The people I ate TG with are downright GIDDY about the economy!

They're ready to go out and spend like the dickens, because since B** "won," his version of reality must be correct!

WTF???

A hundred people in line at the friggin best buy?

[Kitka]

37. I'd have preferred to be protesting rather than shopping yesterday.

Unfortunately, very few Americans agree with me. Not enough Americans give a fuck about the election fraud. And even many Democrats have been made to believe that it didn't happen. It sucks. However, I can't stop my life because of it and will still shop, eat, etc.... but yes, it does bother me that Americans don't give a damn about our election fraud. we should be in the streets like the Ukrainians. I'll be right there to help coordinate any collaborative effort to do so, as I was in the run up to the iraq war. Unfortunately, we're not getting to much support.

[Imajika]

39. Why would Americans be protesting?

You do realize that the vast, overwhelming majority of America has absolutely nothing in common with DU right? I mean, they haven't even the foggiest clue of the stuff that is discussed here regarding election issues.

80% of Americans probably aren't even aware that some people think massive election fraud just occured. There is almost an assumption here in the DU echo chamber that Bush stole the election, but there is no real proof of that. Even journalists like Keith Olberman don't claim there was any massive election fraud, and Olberman is about as progressive-friendly journalist as there is in the MSM. Hell, the bulk of the Democratic Party, to include its leadership, don't believe some massive election conspiracy put Bush in the White House again.

Most people know there were election irregularties, glitches and errors - and even some cheating in some places, but there is some of that in every single election this nation has ever seen. What people don't believe, and this includes the vast majority of the media and the bulk of the Democratic Party, is that there was some massively orchestrated election fraud program in place to put Bush in the White House.

If there is some shred of proof of this massive conspiracy, you can bet Kerry would unconcede and hundreds of thousands would indeed take the streets. Even my rightwing military Republican family would be out there with us were it to be shown with real proof, and I mean real proof and not just theories, that Bush stole the election.

But without any real proof of anykind whatsoever, people are not going to get excited over a bunch of conspiracy theories. There is a reason Kerry conceded, and that is because he and his election team believe he lost. If Kerry believes he lost, why would millions of Americans give up their holiday and stand out in the cold protesting?

Imajika

[timtom]

42. You and I and all the DUers are Harry Potter

and the rest of America that goes shopping are Harry's "family", his fat uncle (who looks amazingly like ME, btw, 'cept he's bigger), his evil, screeching aunt, and the vulgar pigboy who is his cousin.

[0007]

44. Fuck junior, fuck Bestbuy, fuck Wal-Mart, & fuck the Fundamentalist

Our liberties are gonna out the door.

To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men: Abraham Lincoln: 16th U.S.
president, 1809-1865

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Few Americans believe that the election was unfair

Until they are convinced otherwise, I wouldn't expect any massive demonstations if I were you.