RW argues that the US is a 'republic' not a 'democracy'.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

Are we a democratic republic?

What's the TRUE definition? I know wingnuts fear true democracy so they use the argument that we're a republic to suppress the vote, among other things.

Please help explain to me!

[Radical Activist]

1. We're barely even a Republic anymore

and we were never a democracy. There are different definitions but if we were a democracy the people would vote directly on more issues instead of electing representatives and there would be no electoral college.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

2. But there are democratic principles in the Constitution

it is not a direct democracy, but a representative democracy. We directly elect our Congress and Senate.

:shrug:

[Radical Activist]

7. Not at first

we didn't even have direct election of US Senators and most of the population didn't have the right to vote when the Constitution was ratified. You could make an argument that we're a Democratic Republic, but certainly not a democracy. We've moved more in the direction of democracy since the nation was founded, except for the last 6 years or so.

[Lost Creek]

48. They argue that the world is 5000 years old

Fucking dumb asses.

They will circle jerk when told to do so.

They have only "facts" of convenince. They will argue both sides of a horses ass if they need.

HERD THE SHEEP - that is all - no intellectual honesty

[NewHampshireDem]

3. That's just RW thug bullshit ...

They want to sound like they are so much smarter than you ... :puke:

The federal government is a republic, but to say that the US is not a democracy is to ignore the fact that we can directly vote on many issues, not just at the local level, but at the state level and even the federal level--such as constitutional amendments.

[RoeBear]

10. Are you sure...

...about this?
"not just at the local level, but at the state level and even the federal level--such as constitutional amendments."

Referring to voting on constitutional amendments; isn't that done by the state legislatures?

[NewHampshireDem]

14. Actually, it is up to the state to determine how the amendment is done

Some states would be a vote of the legislature, others by convention

[RoeBear]

22. I did a brief internet search...

...and couldn't find anything about the citizens of a state being able to vote for amendments to the constitution.
Do you have any web site you could point to?

[Aristus]

4. The whole 'republic, not a democracy' thing is a idiotic sham arguement

the entire purpose of which is to make them, the "Republicans", sound like they are closer to the true American spirit than Democrats. "We are a Republic, therefor, we the Republicans, are the true Americans", or some such shit. That's all.

[AmerDem]

17. agreed

It's a play on words. As if to say the root word of republic makes up the name of their party ( childish and bizarre at the same time). This message is carried endlessly by the likes of Coulter, Limpballs, Hannity etc. They find anything to separate themselves from the Dems and drive it home endlessly, end result being they start to believe their own nonsense.

[canadianbeaver]

23. That picture is creepy...

It looks like Dickhead is looking at North America and is gonna eat us...with those big teeth and that ugly grin...YUCK!!

I hope he chokes on it!!

[K-W]

18. or it is a sham argument

as to why it is ok if democracy is trampled over every now and again

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Bingo. If the Democratic Party was called, say, the "Northern Party"...

...they'd argue that the USA is not actually in the Northern hemisphere.

[Massacure]

32. Britannica's Republic vs Democracy

Republic:

1 a : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president. b : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

Democracy:

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority. b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

SOunds like the same thing to me. :shrug:

[Taxloss]

40. Subtle difference.

The difference is participation. Democracy implies full democratic participation at every critical stage of the process; a republic does not even guarantee universal suffrage, the "body of citizens" mentioned could be 5% of them.

The simple distinction could or should be that under a republic, the electorate picks people to make decisions for them, and the electorate might not be universal, while under a democracy, power is devolved to the extent that the people effectively make the decisions themselves and the representatives merely represent.

[Eric J in MN]

5. democracy= government of the people

Abraham Lincoln spoke of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" in the Gettysberg Address.

The Constitution starts, "We, the People."

We're a democracy, ideally, whether or not we achieve that ideal.

[sweetladybug]

9. At this time the USA is in a Dictatorship and Bush is the DIC!

n/t

[K-W]

19. Abraham Lincoln was being poetic, we are not a democracy.

We have a government of politicians and beurocrats, by most of the people and for the people who most impact the votes.

In a democracy, the policy decision rests in the hands of the people. Our policy decisions rest in the hands of officials.

[Eric J in MN]

26. When talking about foreign countries, we don't say they

aren't democracies unless they're direct-democracies.

Why apply a different definition to the US?

[K-W]

28. Just because most people use language badly, doesnt mean I should to.

Look what our careless use of the word Democracy has done, it is all but meaningless now. Iraq is going to elect a puppet government and it is going to qualify as a democracy because americans cant handle the fact that thier founding fathers designed a fairly undemocratic republic.

[Maddy McCall]

6. We have never been a democracy, in the true Classical sense

We are a representative democracy---or at least we are supposed to be.

And our government form is indeed republic. States have their own governments under the federal umbrella.

[silverweb]

8. Here you go.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic

The definitions of republic are pretty consistent in all the references cited.

The RW nuts don't even know what they're talking about when they make that argument. They seem to think that a republic is distinctly in opposition to a democracy, and nothing could be further from the truth. I think what they are talking about is an ancient definition of republic described in the note after the third entry -- basically an aristocratic oligarchy -- and that seems to be what the BFEE is striving for.

[mondo joe]

11. Neither. we're an Oligarchy on our way to a Theocracy.

[illflem]

12. My sig says it all

[aquart]

13. A republic? Defined as any gov't NOT a monarchy?

Which means we can certainly be a fascist dictatorship. The idiots really ought to be able to answer the question: "What is a republic?"
Can they?

[BillZBubb]

15. "Republic" is a very generic term.

Basically any government without an aristocracy is a republic. The People's Republic of China is a republic--but not something we admire. The USSR was a group of republics (SSRs). Again that shouldn't make anyone jump with joy about republics.

On the other hand, the "Federalist Papers" contains a section on why our constitution creates a republic and not a democracy. Madison (I think) was talking about absolute, participatory democracy. Since it was impossible to have all citizens meet and vote on all issues facing government, pure democracy was ruled out as impractical and unworkable.

So, our government is a republic, but with essential and crucial democratic mechanisms. It is not an ideal democracy.

[K-W]

16. It is a trick argument.

It isnt an either or question.

Republic is a governmental structure where the power lies in leaders who obtain power in any way other than through succession.

In true Democracy, the people make the policy.
In our republic officials make the policy and are (hopefully) held accountible by the people through elections.

Even our republic is fairly undemocratic.

[Cat Atomic]

20. China is a Republic. Iraq was a Republic. North Korea, too.

I'm so tired of hearing that inane "we're a Republic" line, I swear. It's an argument for a 3rd grader. It's an attempt to suggest that the Republicans are the real Americans. Its intensely stupid.

We're supposedly a Democratic Republic.

[NinetySix]

47. Dittohead: We're a republic, not a democracy.

DUer: Oh really? What IS a republic, and how does it differ from a democracy? Specifically, please.

Dittohead: Um....Well, they're just not the same.

DUer: Oh, I see, you weren't actually making an argument, you were simply parroting some pre-fabricated talking point. Well maybe you can tell me this. What's the difference between doing that and talking out of your ass? Specifically, please.

[OutsourceBush]

21. We are a Republic, a Banana Republic

thanks to right wing Dictator Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Technically We Are A Republic..

The people are governed by their elected leaders...


That being said the whole history of America is a progression of reforms that make it more democratic by extending the franchise to previously disenfranchised groups...

At the founding of the country only white property owners could vote....


Then the franchise was extended to the landless, then blacks, then women, then eighteen years olds...


Also, senators are no directly elected... They used to be appointed by the state's governors...

I wouldn't want to live in a pure democracy where every one of my rights is subject to the whims of my neighbors through their right to vote...

[NinetySix]

27. Thom Hartmann refers to our system as...

...a "constitutionally limited democratic republic." The Constitution designates and restricts the powers of government, and all other rights not explicitly designated are reserved by the people themselves.

[K-W]

29. Constitutional representative republic is more accurate.

Democracy really doesnt belong there.

[NinetySix]

31. The phrase "the people" indicates the democratic aspect. "We, the people"

[K-W]

33. Oh, so we sacrifice accuracy to match a rhetorical flourish?

Because the fouding fathers were so big on writing about democracy, we get to call ourselves a democracy when we arent one?

Democracy = rule by the people.

WE DONT HAVE THAT

We have rule by officials who are elected by the people (and we didnt even have that until recently)

We are a Constitutional Representitive Democratic Republic

If you really want to put democratic in there you have to qualify it with representitive.

I find Constitutional Representative Republic says the same thing shorter.

[NinetySix]

37. The representative aspect is certainly relevant...

...but recall, it is established from below, not imposed from above. The system of representation we have was set up by the people themselves, democratically, through a process of compromise and agreement.

Clearly, no "pure, classical democracy" like the one in ancient Athens could exist today, where only 6000 people made up a society, and 501 were required to sit on a jury in a law case. What is meant in the modern sense of "democracy" is exactly what I previously described: the people of a nation deciding for themselves what kind of government to choose. Demo-, the entirety of the people, in lieu of a gentry class; -cracy, government with an eye toward the good.

Representative democracy, for all intents and purposes in the modern world, IS democracy. In a world of billions made up of nations of millions, there could be no other meaningful sense.

[K-W]

39. That just isnt true.

"but recall, it is established from below, not imposed from above. The system of representation we have was set up by the people themselves, democratically, through a process of compromise and agreement. "

The constitution was not written by the citizens en masse, or even voted on by the citizens. It was written by a group of economic and social elites and agreed to by the economic and social elites in the states. Under it only White male land owners could vote for goodness sakes.

And even if it were written by the people, to be a democracy, it would have to make the people the holders of the power of policy. The people could elect a king, that doesnt make a king democratic.

The fact that the government is accountable to the people does not make it of the people. It is nice, and its probably the best idea, but it is representative before it is a democracy. We have democratic ideals, and the goal is to simulate democracy through accountable officials.

As much as the goal is to replicate democracy, calling it a democracy means we lose the idea of what democracy actually means. Democracy means that that everyone gets an equal say in the exact policy of the government.

[NinetySix]

44. I think we're chasing the same tail here.

As much as the goal is to replicate democracy, calling it a democracy means we lose the idea of what democracy actually means.

How do you propose to accomplish this goal outside of a representatively democratic system? Pure democracy in a society of nearly 300 million people is so cumbersome as to be practically impossible. This is why I say that what we have is effectively democracy, despite its shortcomings with regard to any technical definition.

Democracy means that that everyone gets an equal say in the exact policy of the government.

This is exactly my meaning, so it would seem we agree. So long as this is the common goal, why quibble over semantics?

[Pepperbelly]

30. it's not an argument at all ...

It is merely quibbling over definitions, none of which matter at all. Our government exists within a specific Constitutional framework and description is irrelevant to what actually exists. IOW, it exists outside of the argument and the argument has no effect on the reality.

[rolleitreks]

34. They usually follow up with:

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner."

So they're really arguing against a "majority rules" view of government. As far as I can see our protections against this threat derive from the Bill of Rights and the limited powers granted under the Constitution, not some labored distinction over the difference between a republic and a democracy.

[K-W]

35. Yah, Republicans really cant make this argument anymore.

It only worked when the people werent voting for them.

[rman]

36. the alternative:

one wolf that is guarding a flok of sheep, and only the wolf decides what to have for diner.

Isn't Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle one of those who argues that democracy is the tyranny of the majority?

[Zomby Woof]

38. we're neither

We were a republic until 1898, then became an empire.

In 1947, we became a national security state, with the creation of NATO, the NSA, the CIA, etc, courtesy of Truman, a founding father of the neocons.

The game was rigged before even our grandparents were born. Good luck!

[Wiley50]

41. Neither. We are an empire

I think this link from globalresearch.ca illusrates my point.
Please take a moment to read

Link:http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BAK411A.html

Happy Holiday

Wiley

[truth2power]

42. A republic is a type of democracy. Sheesh!!!

Whenever a wingnut dredges this up it's just a red herring to get people to refocus and start arguing about the minutae. Consequently, they get you off the topic at hand, which they didn't want to discuss anyway. :eyes:

[DemonFighterLives]

43. I always thought this was a lame argument

The righties bring this up all the time, like it really matters.
America is whatever it is. We should always be striving for a better more progressive form of government not trying to go back to the 1700's.
The current form of goverment exhibited under the unelected fraud resembles more of the tinpot dictator form. His* blind followers don't have a clue as to what they are doing to hurt this country.
There other big thing is to deride Michael Moore as anti-american and socialist. They're nuts. He is just a big ole american boy who wants to keep and get back to what he was brought up with.

[FlaGranny]

45. They also use the argument

that we should NOT be a democracy, because people are too stupid to vote on many issues (hint, Democrats).

[Cleita]

46. Republic is a representative type of democracy, which is what

we have. A true democracy would be each citizen involved in the legislative and government process. Our forefathers probably thought it would be too cumbersome. I think we should rethink the idea. I think the people should determine how they want to be governed and then hire the bureaucracy to do so.

I know the above paragraph takes a lot in and seems oversimplified. It needs a lot of explanation, but I think some brilliant minds should kick the idea around.