Antibreastfeeding forces strike again in Texas (remember what

[efhmc]

happened in Houston's Galleria a while back?) This is from an e-mail I received.

"Just wanted to try to get the word out to as many people as possible. I have never been to the 620 Cafe in Round Rock, but they have proven themselves to be very anti-mother and anti-family. Last week a mom was in there breastfeeding her infant and was told to cover up or leave. When she explained her child didn't nurse well being covered and argued that she was being discreet, she was then denied service. A bunch of moms then organized a nurse-in and the place called the cops and the cops were there telling moms to cover up or go to the bathroom. It is my understanding that the nursing moms were denied service even AFTER they finished nursing their children.

It is the law that any place a woman has a legal right to be, then she can breastfeed her child. But, the cops said the 620 cafe has the right to refuse service to anyone but I guess they couldn't kick them out. KVUE did a story about it as well.

Anyway, I'm pretty disgusted by this backwards attitude of this place and just wanted to spread the word to boycott it if you feel the same. Feel free to pass the word along. Places like this shouldn't be allowed to stay in business. Breastfeeding your child is a natural choice and something this society should support and not be ashamed of and try to discourage."

I think those moms should SUE!!!I am tired of not being heard and money talks, especially here in the US of Greed.

[eleonora]

1. good grief!

damn those closet perverts! I can't believe this shit.

[efhmc]

9. Probably the best meal in the place anyway.

[npincus]

396. tee hee

[Doohickie]

266. Now WAIT a minute

My wife is done having kids and my sons are teenagers. When my wife was nursing our sons, she was very discreet about doing so in public and always covered up. Even at that time, about fifteen years ago, being that "public" about nursing, even in L.A. (where we lived at the time) was pretty rare.

Now if someone has a restaurant and is not comfortable with public nursing, it is, in fact, their right to refuse service. This does not make them ogres or fundies or any of the names people are calling them on this thread.

You know, you can't go around criticizing others' cultural practices and expect them to respect yours.

[efhmc]

372. This is not about discretion. This is about ones rights and it is a

woman's right to nurse in public in Texas, anywhere she has a right to be. Those who are freaked out need to find someplace else for their eyes to roam.

[Doohickie]

384. Interesting....

Can you cite an online reference to back up your assertion that this is legal?

[Ilsa]

398. Here are three sites to verify...

http://www.breastfeeding.org/law/CRS2.pdf PDF report to Congress.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/Bills36.html

Tex. Health & Safety Code § 165.001 et seq.
1995 Tex. ALS 600; 1995 Tex. Gen. Laws 600; 1995 Tex. Ch 600; 1995 Tex. HB 359

Chapter 165. Breast-Feeding
Subchapter A. Breast-Feeding Rights and Policies
Sec. 165.001. Legislative Finding
The legislature finds that breast-feeding a baby is an important and basic act of nurture that must be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health and family values. In compliance with the breast-feeding promotion program established under the Federal Child Nutrition Act of 1966 (42 U.S.C. section 1771 et seq.), the Legislature recognizes breast-feeding as the best method of infant nutrition.
Sec. 165.002. Right to Breast-Feed
A mother is entitled to breast-feed her baby in any location in which the mother is authorized to be.

[Doohickie]

400. Well, I'll be damned!

Things sure have changed since my sons were little! I never would have thought that was actually permitted under law.

I retract my first post in this thread.

[Ilsa]

402. Yeah, and in Texas, of all places!

I think it's about saving money in Texas. There are so many moms on WIC, that alot of money vould be saved if they switched from formula to breastfeeding, so they have to make laws to accomodate it. Three years ago, I was told the federal govt would save four billion dollars a year if they could raise breastfeeding rates by another quartile. That includes savings from lower rates of illness, less formula subsidy through WIC, and possibly lower birth rates through lactation amenorrhea keeping mothers infertile for a little longer.

[efhmc]

419. There are psa in English and Sapnish all the time about how much

better it is to breast feed for at least the first year. (That's in Texas.)Beautiful Hispanic mom and baby, very charming and appealing.

[Roaming]

426. Whether it's legal or not, I strongly believe a woman should

be discrete and not have her breast flopping out for all to see. It's just the civil and polite thing to do.

[efhmc]

429. Most of the time no on sees. I do remember back to when I was breast

feeding my second daughter (she is now a 30 year old) and I would always excuse myself and go to the nursery to do it. This was partly for a quiet time so she would settle and go to sleep. However, I have to tell you that I was really angry during this time. Instead of the serene and maternal feeling I was suppose to have I felt isolated and alone. If we had company, I would really steam, feeling that I was a milk machine and not a normal person and part of the adult activity. I think if I could have felt okay about being around others that would not have been the case. I did enjoy breastfeeding but the apartness that was forced on me at that time made me feel ostracized.

[fleabert]

377. actually, the law states

that women may nurse anywhere the woman is legally allowed to be. If the 'right to refuse service to anyone' rule is applied in this case, then why can't a restaurant refuse service to someone who is black, or gay, or fat, or has an ugly shirt on? That would mean they would be discriminating against women only, since men do not breastfeed. This has been battled in other states and the law always sides with the breastfeeding mother.

[Bullshot]

2. Whether these holier-than-thou fundies realize it or not,

breastfeeding is a natural process. The primary purpose of the female breast is to lactate and provide food for infants. Unfortunately, there are too many knuckle-draggers in this world who think the breast is solely something for men to gawk at and grope.

[efhmc]

5. This restaurant is out of my area but I think I might make the drive just

so I can walk in and then suddenly and loudly remember that it is the
restaurant that denied service to breastfeeding moms and walk back out. What a bunch of hypocrites.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. And it was free.

Geez, it costs real money to go to Rick's and see silicone funbags on failed Texas high school cheerleaders.

Anyone ever notice the best nudie bars are all in red states? I have.

[efhmc]

10. I'll have to take your word for this one.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. It's true.

The things you learn when you work in the music business all your life. ;-)

[knight_of_the_star]

138. Good point

Talk about a craven level of hypocracy.

[MountainLaurel]

149. No doubt

Not that I've been to any, but I did notice when driving from Atlanta to Florida straight through Georgia that the titty bar billboards outnumbered the "Family Values Inn," "Save the Fetuses," and other fundie billboards on a three to one basis. (Yes, I counted.)

[varun]

278. We Bare All

dot I-75 as one leaves Atlanta and enters FL. They stop when civilization hits again in Palm Beach / Broward county.

[efhmc]

421. What does that say about us as a culture?

And who has more harm done to them, the woman doing the baring or the man doing the oggling?

[Tsiyu]

94. True as there ever was truth

It's a shame when a man can walk into a tittie bar and see all the breast he wants for a few $$$, but a babe - for whom the breast exists - is denied the same.

Shame on that restaurant. And shame on those people who try to make dirty a very sacred, very human, very clean and very loving function.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

125. So is taking a dump

I'm a mother, and, frankly, I do not want to watch anyone nursing their kid in a restaurant. Sorry, but some things are best done in private, especially in a nice, relaxed, quiet place. That time for the child and the mother is precious, not something you just happen to do wherever you happen to be.

I'm just so weary of these people who think they invented reproduction and we all should applaud them for it.

[Occulus]

133. Oh, you forget to add /sarcasm to your first paragraph

Just thought I'd point out your omission. You know, in case someone actually takes your comment seriously and decides to give it the gout of flames that comment, when seriously made, would so richly deserve.

:)

edit: I just reread the post you were replying to, and I see your comment wasn't sarcastic.

Shame on you for wanting to put women who breastfeed 'in their place'. If you really are a lawyer, you ought to know better.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

154. Nice

The intolerance, not to mention the personal attack, in your post makes me think that you might have snuck over here from the freepers' site.

What is so awful about my not sharing your views on the Blessed Breast? I nursed three kids and I know what I'm talking about.

This is the kind of Tit Nazi mentality that is the mirror image of the rightwingnuts' intolerance of anything that does not fit exactly with how they think.

Not all of us are so enamored of a perfectly natural process that we feel the need to share it with the world. As I said in my post, it's a part of the baby's development that's best done in placid surroundings, a time for the baby and the mother and no one else. Anyone who thinks she's doing her kid any good by schlepping him to TGIFriday's and parking him there and then nursing him amidt all that clatter and fuss is, in my opinion, paying much more attention to what SHE wants to do and not enough attention to what the baby needs.

[fleabert]

161. Research shows otherwise.

Demand feeding encourages proper emotional and physical health, if the mother feels comfortable breastfeeding in public, no one should stop her. In fact, it's the law. Until bottle feeding is shunned in public, breastfeeding mothers should have just as much right to feed their babies whenever and wherever necessary.

[progmom]

172. My problem with what you said

Your discomfort with public breastfeeding makes a certain amount of sense, but it also severely limits what a mother can do for the time she is bf-ing her child. I was pretty uncomfortable with the whole public breastfeeding thing (doing it, I mean) but that meant that I was never able to go out for more than an hour or so at a time. And when we needed to fly to see family, I had to swallow my embarrassment and nurse the kid there on the plane.
Personally, I think Americans - myself included - are way to hung up on our bodies.
But that's prolly a different discussion for a different time.

[fleabert]

202. When babies fly

they do better on take off and landing if they are sucking, so you probably made the flight a lot more enjoyable for everyone! I bet no one even noticed you were breastfeeding.

[efhmc]

395. Nope you have the problem dead level. We all need to be much

easier and healthier with our bodies. It is one thing to do and quite another thing to accomplish.

[progmom]

173. My problem with what you said

Your discomfort with public breastfeeding makes a certain amount of sense, but it also severely limits what a mother can do for the time she is bf-ing her child. I was pretty uncomfortable with the whole public breastfeeding thing (doing it, I mean) but that meant that I was never able to go out for more than an hour or so at a time. And when we needed to fly to see family, I had to swallow my embarrassment and nurse the kid there on the plane.
Personally, I think Americans - myself included - are way to hung up on our bodies.
But that's prolly a different discussion for a different time.

[DemBones DemBones]

135. Babies have to eat and sometimes mom and baby

are not at home when baby has to eat. They should not have to exile themselves to a publice "restroom."

[SammyWinstonJack]

153. I would never eat in a public restroom so why should a baby have too?

:shrug: I breastfed my youngest son for almost two years and I am pretty sure in all that time, I must have fed him in a public place at least once or twice. I know I never fed him in a public restroom.

[TexasSissy]

363. Well, then why should a man not pull out his you know what to

relieve himself in public, since that is "natural" and "biological"?

Nonsense. Exposed genitals and breasts belong in private areas (no pun intended), if you're in a family environment. If you're in a strip club, well, that's the purpose of that place.

[efhmc]

376. WRONG, Wrong Wrong. A male misunderstanding. You have a penis to

reproduce. The breast was made to nourish a baby. Do you understand the difference NOW??? (Of course the penis is also meant for urination. Sorry I forgot to add that. But of course, all of us adults know that.)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

157. The self-indugence

How about mothers who can't afford to stay home with their babies and have to go back to work? They're able to express milk and take care of their child and the kids grow up just fine.

Sorry, but you're presenting an argument that ends in "My way or the highway," and that's just flat out selfish and intolerant.

Sure, the baby matters, but there's a whole world around you, and common courtesy demands that we pay attention to that world. You might be surprised to find out - as people are apparently are - that not every sees things the way you do.

I guess your next campaign will be to force working mothers who can't afford to take their kids to restaurants or who can't afford to stay home with them until they're weaned to do so, because it is, after all, "natural."

Tit Nazis.

[fleabert]

162. you are being ridiculous.

Tit Nazi is an appalling thing to call someone. Perhaps you should step back and stop the name calling. Your agressiveness points to some obvious unresolved feelings about breastfeeding, don't take it out on us. If you don't like it, don't look.

Breastmilk is FOOD. Get over it.

[Liberal Mommy]

178. I totally agree with fleabert!

I also found the term tit Nazi very inappropriate. I don't think we should stoop to name calling here. There is no way I'd ever deny my child food if they were hungry and that includes breast milk.

[Cheswick2.0]

181. no TitNazi is exactly what I was thinking too

You are one of those typical la leche league mavins. Everyone has an opinion. Your's is passionate I admit, but it is also rather naive.

[fleabert]

193. Naive?

Oh that is so funny! I have taken 8 hours of breastfeeding specialist training, 16 hours of Doula training, read extensively on the subject, attended 8 births, assisted many mothers with the actual act of breastfeeding (hands on and by email), and you are calling me naive? I don't discount the experience of your nursing your three kids, but that doesn't make you an expert on breastfeeding in general or the authority on breastfeeding in public. If you didn't want to do it, no one forced you to, why would you want to push your opinion onto someone else's behavior?

I know the LLL has a reputation in some areas of being too strident in their advocacy of breastfeeding, and that has bred some animosity between the formula/bottlefeeders and breastfeeder groups (I have spent my fair share on those boards- believe me I have seen every side of the subject), but it can also be said that this kind of name calling does nothing to help the problem. I suspect you had a bad experience breastfeeding or decided to quit early and regretted it. I could be wrong, but that is usually the case with this kind of reaction.

Breastfeeding is best. No one can disagree with that.
Formula is the preferred choice for some women. No one can disagree with that.
Kids need to eat.
Bottle or breast, feed the kid when they're hungry.

Back off calling me a Nazi, you need some perspective on what you are comparing breastfeeding advocates to. How dare you.

edited after rereading your post and responding accordingly.

[Ilsa]

210. I'm almost ready for the next IBCLC exam,

so I've had lots of experience with breastfeeding mothers as well having been a long termer myself. I'm not crazy about a "nurse-ins", but as liberals, we know that sometimes activism is the way to go.

I can't believe the level of intolerance and hang-ups about breastfeeding. Women in other countries breastfeed in public and no one has a heart attack over it. Most moms, btw, are very discreet and a person would have to get up and stare them down to get a peek at anything.

BTW, my kids would never take a bottle either. And not every nursing moment is a "quiet, peaceful, you-have-to-be-by-yourselves" moment. We don't live our lives that way.

The law in Texas says a woman has the right to breastfeed her child anywhere they have a right to be, even if the nipple is exposed. People should get over it.

[fleabert]

249. good luck on your exam, I have lots of friends who belong!

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the fact that our country seems to be singularly obsessed with this. It just isn't that big of a deal in most other countries. The over-sexualization of the breast and women's bodies in general (by women and men, as evidenced in this thread) is the main problem, IMO.

[efhmc]

356. I keep trying to tell folks that this is actually a uniting issue. Moms

from both sides know that breastfeeding in public is their right and a natural thing and that those who are confused or upset by this should take themselves on down the road.

[fleabert]

250. debating someone and using the word 'typical' completely

disrupts the discourse. I am a typical nothing. No one is. I have many complex views and opinions on pregnancy, childbirth, and child-rearing. You have no idea where I stand on any of these issues except that I support breastfeeding in public. That hardly qualifies you to say I am typical anything. Let's get to the meat of the subject and stay away from the 'typical' talk. You sound like my freeper uncle who calls me a 'typical democrat' as if that was an insult.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

182. I have to say expressing milk sucks!

I always had a hard time with it. I tried by hand, using a manual pump, and using an electric pump. The process was so slow, tedious, and physically uncomfortable. It was much easier for my son to get the milk out than it was for me. I don't think expressing milk is the answer.

Frankly, I wish our society was more excepting of mothers nursing babies. Breast milk is best. They even say this on formula commercials now. Breast feeding helps the baby develop their immune system. I breast fed my son at home, but frankly I was scared to do it in public, mostly because I was new to the area and I wasn't sure how the locals would react. I would give him formula in public. Formula is expensive, but we didn't use it that much because I stayed home for the most part. I would have rather breast fed my son in public, than have given him formula (it would have saved us money), but I was really afraid that I would be harassed for doing so.

[fleabert]

195. I hope you feel empowered by this thread to bf in public next time

(if you have another)

FYI-formula companies are required to say breastmilk is best, they don't do it voluntarily.

Kudos for sticking with bf even with supplementing, so many women find it more difficult and give up bf after doing so, glad you found what worked for you.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

248. He was mostly breast fed except for when I went out in

public, which was very rare when he was an infant. I breast fed him up until 8 months old, at which point he weened himself. I was actually disappointed that he stopped so young. My son was also an early walker (he also started walking at 8 months). Once he was fully mobile, he didn't seem to want to sit still any longer to be breast fed, and he preferred to drink out of a bottle (because he could drink out of a bottle and play at the same time). He also was starting to get teeth at that time, so I was probably better off that he wanted to stop then.

If I ever have another, I hope that I would be able to breast fed. I know that I would not be shy about breast feeding in public with a second one.

[wickywom]

316. I was scorned several times by the Tit Nazis ..

for feeding my baby formuIa because nursing made me so insane i couldn't do it anymore.
Women I didn't even know would come up to me..."are you still nursing?"
My husband's family is very Fundie and very pro-breastfeeding.
Where do you people live that breastfeeding is looked down on.
That was not my experience at all here in NC.

[fleabert]

328. how dare you use that slur.

that is one of the most vile things to call someone.

I can understand that you were offended that women scorned you for choosing to switch to formula, but that does not give you the right to call anyone a Nazi, except a Nazi.

No one should chastise another for their choice to breast or bottle feed, but perhaps your own personal feelings about switching came into play when someone asked 'are you still nursing'? maybe they were just looking to ask a nursing mom some questions about pumping, you didn't say what followed the question, so I could be totally wrong, but it doesn't sound that awful to me.

Sorry you had such trouble nursing, I hope you had access to an independent lactation consultant and a supportive network of family and friends before you made the decision, that can make all the difference in the world. (not just in making the decision to switch, but also in how you feel after your decision)

No one should feel attacked for their choice to formula feed, and vice versa for breastfeeding.

[wickywom]

331. oh my gosh... sensitive.. again with the lecturing.

I borrowed the term from elsewhere in this discussion..

I generally use the term Nazi- mothers.

[fleabert]

334. Sensitive?

not really. Just a human being. Nazi's rounded people up and killed them. Exterminated millions of people. People who identify with the Nazi party in modern times also call themselves white suprematists and where hoods or shave their heads. Why in the world would someone be offended to be compared to that? How in the hell am I being labeled sensitive? I take it you aren't offended by the term 'femi-nazi' either? Pitiful.

[wickywom]

339. Just curious why am baring the brunt of the Nazi critsism?

YOU ARE WAY OVER- ANALYZING!

For the record I think beastfeeding is normal amdfabulous as are breasts and anyone should be able to do it where ever they want and I will give it go again with my next child.
That said.. it absolutly amazes me that women who pride themselves on being supportive of choice.. condem us when we don't choose what they think is best.

The pressure, stress, and confusion of becoming a new mother is not helped when leche nuns are breathing down your neck, pressuring you ,and making you feel terrible.


I left the hospital feeling like leche is a cult.
That helps no one.

[musette_sf]

371. re the La Leches

I had a friend who got involved with a La Leche League group when she was PG with her first. They *were* a bit on the militant side. And they also didn't have any compunctions about pushing idiot junk science theories on their kids. One of the families were fruitarian, and made their kids eat the same way they did. Too bad the only decent protein source their kids ever got was breast milk. Kids were always sick, whiny and irritable.

[fleabert]

375. you aren't bearing the brunt...read further.

Anyone who used that term got the same response from me.

I agree that some who are in LLL can be too agressive and turn off new mothers to the group, but to lump anyone who is a breastfeeding advocate in that group and call them a Nazi is irresponsible and reactionary. I have met my fair share of women who choose to use formula that are the same way, overly agressive, both groups act the same way about the opposite opinions, both are out of line.

My experience working with lactation consultants and LLL has been nothing but positive. I expressed that I understood the experience you may have had and that that was out of line.

Language is powerful. How would you like it if I called you a Nazi? Or any name for that matter? Please swallow your pride and admit that it was overzealous and inappropriate on your part to use that ugly term, or just drop it.

truce otherwise.

[fleabert]

379. I need to pay attention when I am lecturing.

of course I meant to say 'wear hoods' not where. oops.

:+

[efhmc]

354. It is really really hard when you try everything and it just does not work

which was the case with my daughter's first child. Sorry that others made you feel bad as I am sure you were and are trying to do the best for your child/ However, I really do not like that label. Labels are really hateful things.

[wickywom]

369. It was less about feeling bad than it just pissed me off... still does.

When I needed to make the decision to wean my baby I couldn't find any useful info cause "breastfeeding fundamentalists"-- better?-- have caused such a boobie backlash there is hardly any info left on bottlefeeding...guess who supplies the most info-- formula companies... there's an objective opinion... in an odd twist their brestfeeding booklets are also quite useful in those first weeks.

.. when I quit breastfeeding I didn't wish for death anymore... I began to enjoy being a mother

The one thing I learned from being pregnant is that everyone around you has something to say... but every woman is different and we should be able to get all the info. to make our own decisions.

The pushiness of some is a grave turn off to those who simply need info. not fear mongering.

[efhmc]

374. I really do "hear your pain" as those touchy feely types say. My daughter

who now has her second ( a nine month old, who was much more successfully breastfeed than his older brother) probably would have been better off just giving it up early on, but she tried and tried (sorry to say I probably might have been a factor here) but the truth was that no matter what she did (drugs from Mexico) and herbs and lactation experts in one of the best pediatric hospitals in the US, it did not work and I think (now, of course) that it would have been so much better for her and baby if she could have just been able to bow out earlier and with so much less trauma. However, being a mom always involves guilt. We try and we try and sometimes it just does not work, even as the Grandmother.

[fleabert]

380. We agree on something!

I was just at Dr. Sears website and he has a link just for bottlefeeding. I really do agree with you that some people are overly agressive in their advocacy of breastfeeding. A common level of respect is necessary and I think it gets lost in the fray. I do hate that you had such a bad experience breastfeeding and weaning, I hope your future experiences should you have more kids is much more positive, whatever you choose.

[wickywom]

415. I already had the Sears book...

..my baby has never liked being in a wrap or sleeping in bed with us..so the much of the attachment stuff wasn't working out. I generally use his book for medical info. ...
It was a constant companion in the newborn period.

Sorry for any offense
and thanks.

[wickywom]

416. I already had the Sears book...

..my baby has never liked being in a wrap or sleeping in bed with us..so much of the attachment stuff wasn't working out. I generally use his book for medical info. ...
It was a constant companion in the newborn period.

Sorry for any offense
and thanks.

[fleabert]

159. shitting where people eat is inappropritate,

eating where people eat is not.

Some simple advice: don't look.

[jayfish]

194. Deity Forbid That...

you would have to see humans actually eating at a restaurant. Did you take your babies anywhere with you? Sorry to say, but if a baby is hungry you feed him/her, "wherever you happen to be". I'm just so weary of people who think they invented neglect and we should all applaud them for it.

Jay

[ElsewheresDaughter]

408. IS THAT WHAT YOU FED YOUR BABIES..."DUMPS"?

[Cheswick2.0]

151. excuse me but where was the information about the restaurant being fundie?

I must have missed that part.

[fleabert]

160. I think that was a joke...

no, I know it was a joke.

[Cheswick2.0]

180. I have been around here long enough to know it wasn't a joke

it was the usual dumb assumption that everything restrictive must be "fundie".

[fleabert]

207. Well, I saw it differently.

I don't think it was dumb, I thought it was clever since most physically restrictive laws do tend to come from the right.

[efhmc]

206. There is none but look at that video and you will see a fundie

man talking about the woman nursing. I've lived in Texas all my nice long life and you can take this one from me. I can spot them.

[fleabert]

I didn't want to say it, but you did, so I will have to laugh and agree

with you! I am from TX as well, and you can spot them a mile away. I am tempted to call the rest. and ask who he voted for, just to substantiate the claim.

so, upon reflection, I guess I have to take back my post that said I thought it was a joke, I did think it was funny though!

[efhmc]

350. The contempt and condescension in his voice plus his belly are real

good indicators. (Although I know some freaky, skinny ones also.)

[Carni]

406. Well here in the NORTH

The people predominantly pounding breast feeding up everyone's ass are by and large "fundies"

Perhaps this is a cultural difference because I am not from Texas but I fail to see how the hell breastfeeding in public (and breast feeding in GENERAL because the proponents push it like they are selling AMWAY) is supposed to be a *liberal* political stance?

As a matter of fact I had some whacko badgering me in the hospital because I wasn't breastfeeding--she was so busy telling me how screwed up in the head that I was for not being "a good mom" that the idiot left a shunt in my spine that resulted in permanent nerve damage.

Perhaps some of us have been so turned off by the pushy proponents of breastfeeding that we find the whole process rather unsavory.

Several here certainly aren't doing anything to dispel my previous impressions about the *breastfeeding all the time* people.

[efhmc]

417. Totally wrong behaviour by any professional (?) to question your

motivation for any choice you make for your child if that decision is made in the best interest of you and your child whether they agree or NOT!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

196. Nestles Formula Law: Mandatory mastectomy at age 18 for US welfare.

"Lobbyists from the Nestle company, maker of baby formula shipped to to poor countries without clean water, have succeeded in getting Congress to pass legislation requiring women to undergo mandatory mastectomies at age 18 or lose all financial aid from the US."

Hard to tell this is humor these days, isn't it?

[Minimus]

221. Please let me see a link. Not that I don't believe you but

I will need proof when I tell other people. This is absurd!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

237. A joke to reflect the corporate culture that mandates GM seeds for Iraq

farmers to deprive them of any chance of independence from Monsanto because they can only use crops whose seeds are sterile and must buy again at planting time and forever more. THAT is an obscenity.

Now THAT isn't a joke. That really is in the new agricultural regs in the corporate looting site that used to be called Iraq.

Any natural process of being human is being criminalized so the corporate-owned state can control it.

Fear of sexuality is a very useful tool for censorship.

If you can get people to condemn love and nurturance as exemplified by gay marriage and breastfeeding, you can get them to commit atrocities.

[Imperialism Inc.]

347. Well, actually...

human female breasts aren't the size they are because they have to be. Just look at other mammals and primates to see that anything over an 'A' cup is most likely the result of sexual selection by human males.
Not that it has anything to do with this article. Just felt like being a contrarian ;-) But it is true ...

[Liberal Veteran]

3. I personally never understood people freaking about feeding babies...

...treating the activity as though it were sexual or the equivalent of defecation or something.

Bizarre beyond all belief. I say feed the baby if it's hungry.

[efhmc]

6. Hey, why not let the babe scream really, really loudly and then explain

to the infant that although you are sorry he/she is hungry, she'll have to wait until you are home to be fed. What do you think? Abusive, cruel? Doesn't matter as long as that booby does not see the light of day.

[Trumanway]

15. I can't figure out what these people are worried about either...

I mean, who does it hurt, it's as normal as eating and breathing (well, I guess it IS eating), and you don't HAVE to look, ya could always mind your own business. people with too much time on their hands, I guess.

[Pithlet]

4. Some states do have that law

but not all of them. I'm not sure about Texas. Breastfeeding mothers should be protected in all states. I was pretty lucky in that I never faced anything more than the occasional dirty look, and even then that didn't happen too often. Sometimes people were shocked I would do such a thing in public.

Nursing mothers in the area should stage a nurse-in.

[efhmc]

12. They did. It's funny that that brings moms from both side of the political

spectrum together. The mom has the right in Texas to breastfeed in public.

[MountainLaurel]

150. State laws on breastfeeding

On this week's update of Librarians' Index to the Internet.


2. 50 State Summary of Breastfeeding Laws
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This site presents an overview of laws enacted in over 35 states
related to breastfeeding in public places. Browsable by state.
From the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL).

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm
http://lii.org?recs=023811
Subjects:
* Breast feeding
Created by: mcb

[Ilsa]

212. We have a very liberal law on breastfeeding in Texas.

It says the mother has the right to breastfed anywhere she and her child have the right to be, even if her nipple is exposed.

[Ducks In A Row]

8. Ain't these the same mommies who freak out about janet's tit on tv

shit, make up your minds. either naked titties are ok or they aren't.

[Pithlet]

32. Not exactly.

Not even close. Breastfeeding isn't done as part of some radical, crazy movement. In fact, it is that very notion that gets nursing mothers kicked out of establishments. We aren't flashing our titties to titillate. That is ridiculous.

[Danocrat]

11. I can see your dirty pillows.

Carrie (Sissy Spacek): They're called breasts, mama, and every woman has them.

[efhmc]

16. Interesting reference.

[seabeyond]

14. with germs and everything, and feeding a baby

standing in a bathroom, wouldnt be an option. there wouldnt be a chance in hell i would take a baby into a bathroom to feed it

[efhmc]

19. Yeah, that is pretty icky. Maybe the moms should require a special

room with quiet music and small tables where they can be served their meals away from the "frightened eyes" of others.

[TexasProgresive]

30. I'm on your side, ladies

I can hear it now, "Breast or non-breast?"

[efhmc]

40. With the lack of sleep most mom of young babies are dealing with,

it would probably turn out to be a sleeping room.

[Contrary1]

137. I can hear it now, "Breast or non-breast?" hehehe...

And this comes from a breast cancer survivor who had a double mastectomy.

On a lighter note...when I hosted a gathering in Indianapolis for my Internet
breast cancer support group buddies, several of us went to Hooters and
asked to be seated in the "Breast-Handicapped Area".

The waitress, who while obviously being well-stacked, was still not in possession
of a full deck, got a quizzical look on her face and said:

"I don't think we have one of those here."

[Ilsa]

213. There is no need to segregate them like this any more than

there is a need to seat people with bad tables manners or bad teeth in another area.

[efhmc]

357. Now those things freak me out.

I guess I am a bad teeth and bad manners bigot/

[Pithlet]

35. The response I had ready

if anyone ever asked me to take it to the bathroom was "Go eat your lunch in the public bathroom and see if YOU like it." Luckily, I never had to use it.

[efhmc]

42. Great.Glad to see you never had the problem. I noticed when my

daughter was on the plane feeding her youngest, no one asked her to step to the bathroom or outside.

[KTM]

113. And you think the REST of the place is clean ???

[mom cat]

17. Good for the moms who staged the "nurse in". They've got gumption.

:toast::bounce::bounce::bounce::smoke::yourock::smoke::bounce::bounce::bounce::toast:

[efhmc]

20. Yes, I liked that aspect of the situation also.

[Sleepysage]

18. Breasts are the Devil's playthings.

Isn't this the same tortured logic that's used for burqas?

"You turn me on... therefore you must be covered."

[efhmc]

21. Maybe we just should chop them all off and not just cover them since they

are so evil. We don't want to ever cause sinful thoughts in others, especially men.

[TankLV]

22. Wonder how long before laws requiring pregnant women to stay home

so as not to offend the stork children!

[efhmc]

24. Anything that indicates a woman's real sexual id is already seen as

nasty instead of their exploitation for men's fantasies which is naughty but necessary and profitable and therefore okay..

[personman]

23. Breast Pump...

Why not just use a breast pump & bottle? problem solved...

-personman

[efhmc]

25. NOT, many breastfed babies will absolutely not take a bottle. Again

the problem would be solved for those freaky people who think breasts are nasty but not for the mom and baby.

[personman]

37. I see your point but...

by that logic every beach should be topless, bikini tops shouldn't exist. After all, why cover them at all if they aren't nasty? Topless bars should start letting 12 year olds in. Any kid should be able to buy a playboy. Do you mow your lawn topless if its a hot day? somehow I doubt it.

If I could tap beer from my butt crack that would be great, but I dont think I'd do it in public.

Fleabert, so if I walk around using my penis to carry a fruit roll up because my hands are full noone should have a problem with that? Hey I might starve...

(edit: Also if your calling every guy who thinks boobs are sexual "freaky" then the only guys in the world who aren't freaky are gay)
(edit again: Also the "it's totally natural" thing doesn't wash, taking a dump is totally natural, weed is totally natural, sex itself is totally natural, natural has nothing at all to do with ok in public)

I really don't care either way, but some sort of consistency here would be nice.

If you notice one of the posts above seems to be making the same point:

"Ain't these the same mommies who freak out about janet's tit on tv
shit, make up your minds. either naked titties are ok or they aren't."

I'm not tryin to start a fight here, I just kind of feel both sides have a point. Hope I havn't offended anyone, just tryin to make my point in a humorous sort of way.

[fleabert]

44. The penis isn't designed by nature to carry a fruit roll-up.

Breasts are designed to breastfeed, that is their main function. Sexual function is an adjunct function of their inherent sensitivity, and does not apply to all straight men (or women for that matter, I know women who do not liked their breast stimulated sexually at all.

Nipples on bottles, nipples on the breast, equal in my book, absolutely no reason to cover them up while feeding a baby. I can understand (in our society and others) why one would be expected to cover up when not breastfeeding, but I will not be convinced about women being forced to cover up or hide in a bathroom stall while providing the basic necessity of life to a child.

Not offended, I have had this discussion many a time while working as a doula and a breastfeeding advocate. I just hope you try to see the breast in a different light someday. A functional one, rather than a sexual one.

[personman]

75. There are plenty of natural things

that are not ok in public. The fact that its natural, in and of itself, does not make ok in public.

As I said before, I personally don't care either way, and I do agree with all the points you've made I havn't debated. I dont think a baby should starve just so a few people don't feel awkward or whatever. But wether it's intended or not breasts are seen as sexual, and some (but not all) women are partially to blame for it. Any woman who has ever worn a low cut shirt to show off cleavage or gotten a boob job to attract attention can take some blame for that, it's not all the fault of "sicko perverted guys" like some folks here are claiming. It's kind of a mixed message that is getting sent here.

women: look at my boobs! look at my boobs! shower my wonderful boobs in attention!
men: hey nice boobs! I think I like boobs...I reckon I wanna see more boobs
....Later....
men: hey nice boobs...
women: hey I'm breastfeeding you demented pervert, boobs aren't sexual
men: ?...ok...

not made to carry a fruit rollup eh? it's kinda like a little elephant trunk, it has to be useful for something...hauling kindling or something...(dont mind me I know I'm a butt)

[efhmc]

81. You have some interesting points and you made me laugh. Thanks.

[Tsiyu]

96. Oh, give it up

stop stereotyping.

If you can't handle the sight of a woman's breast, stop looking.

Don't make babies suffer for it. I've seen more boob on billboards than you'd normally see from a nursing infant. Sheesh, i thought I'd hear it all......

[personman]

106. You give it up =P

If you read what I wrote you'll see:

I went out of my way not to stereotype.

I dont really have a position either way on this issue, I don't really care, but I think both sides have a point.

I clearly stated that I don't think a baby should starve so some people don't feel awkward.

Now that thats out of the way(again), for someone accusing others of stereotyping you seem to have done a fair amount of that yourself.

"If you can't handle the sight of a woman's breast, stop looking."

Where did I say I've ever even seen a woman breastfeeding? also I don't appreciate the implication that I would just go boob crazy if there is an uncovered boob within a 100 meter radius of me.

Save the fire for someone who disagrees with you...I dont.

[Tsiyu]

108. "Some women show their boobies and they are to blame?"

I just don't get that. Scuse me. I'm sick of all the whining about the evil female body.

If I have to listen to penile erection commercials all day, you can handle some cleavage....

[personman]

112. I never said that...

and I never said women's bodies were evil, and I never said I couldn't handle cleavage.

I'm not going to waste anymore time on this, your putting words in my mouth.

[Tsiyu]

134. I won't either

I only wanted you to explain how women showing their cleavage were responsible for breastfeeding prohibitions. Just your mind wandering, eh? :evilgrin:

And the Grammar Police say that "You are" is spelled "You're" as a contraction, but I'll forgive you.

I know. I'm a bitch - with no cleavage to redeem me, dammit. That's what's wrong here....;)


Peace, person man

[phylny]

147. I for one do not think both sides have a point at all.

Breastfeeding is a normal, natural thing - it's eating. It is not akin to defecating or urinating, which produces waste product that is dangerous when left around. The product of the breast is milk, which is food.

I breastfed my babies everywhere I went without anyone seeing my breasts. I even breastfed while coaching a youth group volleyball game - and the kids were from my church.

There's nothing disgusting about it. People need to seriously grow up and avert their eyes if they're disturbed by it.

[juajen]

105. Gee, sounds like "breast envy".

N/T

[noiretextatique]

251. ohforgodsake

how idiotic.

[fleabert]

254. self delete; duplicate posting due to bug.

[fleabert]

255. here's an idea for another use!

not made to carry a fruit rollup eh? it's kinda like a little elephant trunk, it has to be useful for something...hauling kindling or something...(dont mind me I know I'm a butt)

seems you were on the right track after all, but I don't want to see this at a restaurant! :silly:

http://www.ilovexor.com/xorzine.cfm?ZineAction=show&ZineID=0306_sexaroundtheworld.cfm

CAUTION!!!!! if you are sensitive at all, don't click on the link. EXPLICT picture of a penis doing something other than just being a penis. (not sexual)

[immoderate]

168. Not being the designer,

I wouldn't deign to define what the breast is "intended for." But note that other mammalian species do not need prominences that human females sport to feed their young.

It requires an extreme degree of denial to say that breasts don't serve a sexual function in human females.

I don't get fed that way and yet, I LIKE 'EM!

--IMM

[fleabert]

257. But,

almost all mammals have some degree of increase in breast tissue and breast size at least during nursing, apes, puppies, you name it and most get a little bigger. Apes get a lot bigger. Just during lactation though, we are the only ones who grow in puberty.

[fleabert]

52. BTW

I thought the reaction to Janet was silly, didn't bother me a bit to see a boob. What did bother me is that Justin Timberlake got a pass for forcibly ripping off a woman's clothing while telling her 'I'm gonna take your clothes off', and then Janet was blamed 100% for the exposure.

[personman]

80. I didn't really care either...

I thought it was pretty obvious it was planned in advance and I doubt Justin would have ripped off her clothing if he didn't know it was ok with her. Otherwise Janet could claim sexual harrasment or whatever and Justin's career would probably be pretty much over. If it hadn't been Justin it would have probably been whichever other pop-star of the hour was a big deal.

[FizzFuzz]

314. just jumping in to say thank you for seeing the Timberlake hypocrisy.

Rarely does anyone seem to notice that the thing was choreographed as a rape scene, yet the whole brouhaha is framed as "Janet showed her breast!!! EVIL!! OBSCENE BREASTS ON DISPLAY!!. The cheerleaders bumping and grinding in tutu's over a thong in order to shill for the NFL and for Beer--well, they're OK. Because its men hiring and directing them? Meanwhile, Justin gets honored to host the grammy's or whatever it was.

I'm not going to comment on the debate in question just because I need to get going, not enough time to think of my position and how to explain it. But, the best comment on the whole issue was an early post about red states having the most titty bar billboards of anyone.

[mzmolly]

114. OMG. Breastfeeding is natural. Janets tits on the superbowl halftime

show is not even in the same ballpark.

If you become aroused at a feeding babe, that's YOUR problem. Should we allow bottlefed babies to go hungry because it might offend?

[sunnystarr]

260. True since Justin didn't try nursing on it lol (nt)

[fleabert]

116. opinion is moot...

From LLL- A mother may breastfeed her baby in any location, public or private, where the mother is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of the mother's breast uncovered during or incidental to the breastfeeding.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/NBNovDec94p164.html

[flygal]

143. My baby would never take a bottle - try as I might! ...

When I nurse in public it's very discreet. I try and find another spot (empty booth) but sometimes it has to be done. And it's hard to nurse older babies covered up. I'll bet the woman was being discreet but the waiter could notice it.

One thing I've noticed about women who do not choose to breast feed id they are
1- younger, the breasts are still very sexual objects to them
2- less educated, this is a personal observance of people I personally know (no flames)
3- republicans - I know two educated older women who chose not to bf and they are repubs

I know this isn't scientific - just my observations. I personally chose bfing b/c it just seemed like if my breasts were supposed to make it, then that's what I was going to use.

[Cheswick2.0]

152. You are killing me

It's been a long time since I laughed so hard. I ended up marrying the last man who made me laugh this hard. Way to be a smartass!

[Ilsa]

215. I know alot of breastfeeding moms who didn't look twice

about JJ's tit-flash. The comment was that "people make too much fuss about breasts as it is; move on."

[Carni]

239. LMAO "beer from your buttcrack"

That is the most hilarious response I have ever read on DU
(REALLY LITERALLY LOL)

[IntravenousDemilo]

349. Oy, what a ridiculous country...

...where a breast is such a cause for alarm. It's no wonder we secretly snicker at you behind our sleeves. If it's not breastfeeding moms, it's Janet Jackson's ta-ta. The US mindset seems to be in a tug-of-war between puritanism and prurience, and I think the puritans have the dirtiest minds of all. Everything is all about (sex) and it's all so DIRTY!!! Basically, America has the personality of a 15-year-old boy when it comes to sex.

We used to be equally ridiculous up here in Canada, till we realized that it was unconstitutional to forbid women to go topless anywhere men could walk around with their shirts off. That attitude is just so much healthier, earthier, and more mature, less tarnished by frat-boy leering. Mind you, women still don't walk around with their tops off, even though they are legally able to. And that's the point. They can do so if they want, which is the important thing.

As for seeing women breastfeed in public, I got over that thirty years ago, once I got over my envy at having been bottle-fed.

[efhmc]

351. Welcome, what a name. I really think that Canada is my North American

spiritual home until I remember that my physical, Texas body would probably freeze within 10 minutes of being there in January. Speaking of, my daughter wants to ski there in January. What's good? She has already been to Banth (I know that is not right, sorry to be so DUMB.)

[fleabert]

381. the good reasons to move keep pouring in! n/t

[fleabert]

28. The problem is people thinking the breast is sexual when breastfeeding,

while it is one of the most natural acts there is. Pumping is difficult sometimes and is nowhere near as effective at taking milk from the breast as the baby is. It can effect milk production and the baby's ability/preference for the breast.

The problem is not changing the mother and the baby's behavior (which is normal and natural), the problem is changing public perspective.

[efhmc]

29. Well said and to the point. Thanks.

[fleabert]

49. Thanks,

It's a subject I have spent many hours studying and advocating. The more women breastfeed in public, the sooner people will get used to it!

[ohio_liberal]

164. I could never get a pump to work....

No let-down reflex with pumps for me. It was the real thing or nothing. I refused to go hide to do it.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

188. I had the same problem.

My son could get tons of milk when he breast fed, but I couldn't get hardly anything to come out with the pump.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

252. I agree. Well said.

Especially about the pumping. So many people act like pumping is the solution, but from my experience it isn't. Pumping breast milk is hard. I wonder how many women are successful at it and actually continue pumping for several months? I was not very successful at pumping. I tried many times. Sometimes I would pump for an hour or more and not get anywhere near 4oz, which is pathetic. I could never managed to get enough to feed my child with pumping. It just didn't work well for me. My son, however, could latch on an get tons of milk out.

[fleabert]

283. everyone is different, just to show the vast difference

between people's experiences, I know a woman who pumped solely for triplets, she had a tough time in the beginning, but it worked out for her. I have known plenty more who had your experience though, it is hard work. Really hard work, harder than being an appointed president! It is wonderful that we have options today that our mother's and grandmother'd didn't, sure do wish some of them worked better!

[Left Is Write]

31. The question is, why should a mother have to?

My two youngest refused bottles. Period. They would never take one.

Also, pumping is extremely difficult for some women. The pump does not stimulate the letdown that the baby does, and getting a decent supply of milk from the pump can be a challenge. Pumping also does not trigger the production of more milk as effectively as the nursing baby does.

There is no reason any woman should have to feed her infant with a bottle just to secure the comfort of others. Nor should she have to feed her infant in a bathroom. I wouldn't eat my meal in a bathroom, and I wouldn't want my babies to either.

Breastfeeding is perfectly normal. If people out and about don't see breastfeeding, it will never be seen societally as normal. It shouldn't be a big deal. A breastfeeding mother should cause no more blip on the radar than a bottlefeeding mother, but if we continue to require breastfeeding mothers to hide away, it will keep being an issue it doesn't need to be.

[efhmc]

38. I think it should be exactly the opposite. Accomodations should be

made to allow you to be who and what you are, naturally and normally. You should not be treated like some freak that needs to cover up or take to the bathroom to feed your baby.

[fleabert]

47. I think you are inside my head! n/t

[Pithlet]

33. Nope

Particularly in the beginning, when a nursing mother is trying to get her supply established. And, some babies will not take a bottle easily, especially not from their mother. They are amazingly stubborn at holding out for the real thing.

Besides, that misses the point completely. Breastfeeding is not about flashing bare breasts to titillate or assault others. Why should I have had to force my baby to take a bottle if he didn't want one because of the backward, misinformed opinions of others? Honestly, most of the time no one had a clue what I was doing, because it really isn't all that conspicuous. I never danced around spraying my milk in all directions. I would understand the objection in that case.

[efhmc]

36. Hey, I want to see that milk spraying dance. Sounds like real

entertainment to me.

[Pithlet]

41. I'm sure there is a web site or two for that kind of thing

;)

[efhmc]

60. We can have a penis/fruit roll-up site too!

[Pithlet]

63. LOL

We're going to get this thread locked, you know :)

[LeftyMom]

77. Milk loses antibodies when pumped and stored

Some women can't pump well.
Why the hell should we have to spend fifteen minutes pumping and then another fifteen minutes using both hands to feed the baby?
Pumping doesn't stimulate the breasts to produce more milk the way suckling does which can lead to supply loss and preventable supplementation with an inferior food source generaslly formula or solids.)
Time at the breast in skin to skin contact with mother is emotionally healthy for a baby.
Because no mother should have to rearange her life to for pervs and prudes!

[msanthrope]

310. "Why not use a breast pump and a bottle?"

Well, my daughter would never take to a rubber nipple. Ever, and Oh Boy, did I try. Some babies just don't.

As for a breast pump, well, have you ever tried one?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

344. Obi says hello.

[efhmc]

427. We need to know if he was breastfed in public, before we can say

"hello" back.

[Javaman]

26. I've eaten there, their food sucks anyway, avoid it.

[efhmc]

27. I'm sure the baby was partaking of the best food there.

[barb162]

34. before you all get on my case, how did we all grow into adults

without our mothers whipping it out for us in public. Let's remember for the last hundred + years or so, women in this country didn't breastfeed in public. I am a woman, and I didn't like Janet Jackson's doing what she did and I don't like public breastfeeeding.

Then again I don't like people showing their rear end cracks with the low-slung pants. Well, one can say we all have rear ends, but does that mean people have to show them or others want to see them? We all have other areas that we cover so we don't break the law. The breast is one of the areas and it is always covered. Is it okay to be uncovered when breastfeeding?

Yes, breastfeeding a child is a natural choice, but what happened to discretion. I don't consider my attitude backward, I call it discreet.

[Pithlet]

39. Sorry, but it's backwards.

You're the one equating showing one's ass crack with feeding one's baby in the most natural way possible. You're the one equating a simulated rape scene on national television with feeding one's baby in the most natural way possible. Even if what you assert is true about the past hundred years; for, oh, say ten thousand years before that, women breastfed in public. And it's a weak argument, anyway. It's like saying it's okay to be a racist because the institution was a public and broadly accepted one for the past hundred years. It was also considered vulgar for women to show their ankles for hundreds of years. I'm certainly glad that nifty little taboo became passe. And, women wearing trousers. Shocking!

[efhmc]

43. We are really one mixed up society. Natural and normal and sweet are

seen as weird and odd and exhibitionary. What a strange society we live in.

[Pithlet]

48. Maybe someone could request

a lactating booby-free forum here at DU for their delicate sensibilities :)

[barb162]

46. I wondered how long it would take....well,

I am not equating rear ends with baby feeding and yours is an expected hysterical response to what I wrote. We cover three areas of our bodies in our civilized society, the breast being one of these areas. Nor did I see the Jackson stunt as a "simulated rape scene" as you write I did. How do you know how I saw it? In fact I saw it as a disgusting, cheap and tawdry stunt that was completely out of place, that is, at a football game in front of a live and very large audience.

I also don't care what Bronze Age peoples did in regard to breastfeeding; I am more concerned with recent history. I suspect Bronze Age people were not too concerned about societal norms in those days as there were probably few norms other than for staying alive. Clothing, if any, was probably for warmth only and we have no idea what they thought as there are no written records. Nor do I care how women breastfeed in current primitive societies as that doesn't apply to a highly civilized society.

And please don't get racism (why not throw in World War II then)in here. It is a red herring argument, absurd namecalling etc., throwing every thing in but the kitchen sink to try to negate my points. Saying that I don't approve of something and I prefer something from a few years back doesn't mean I am for racism, let alone Hitler or George Bush. Remeber that word I used: discretion.

[Pithlet]

51. I'm glad I didn't disappoint. n/t

[barb162]

68. You disappointed because you wrote nothing logical. You

shouldn't be glad about that. Your response was akin to that of a fundie who can't answer why they voted for Bush. Screaming or total silence, but they never can answer the question.

[Pithlet]

71. Yes

because defending breastfeeding automatically means fundie. I can see where you'd get that impression.

[fleabert]

65. actually, it's not the whole breast that our culture or laws take issue

with, it is the nipple alone. All other parts of the breast are acceptable for some reason. check out the pictures of Tara Reid the last few days, all have blurred out the nipple only, not the breast. Underside, cleavage, beside the armpit, decolletage, all acceptable. Nipple? OMG! we can't see that, that's obscene! I see nipples on TV all the time, on men. Ours are no different physically, so the problem is social. I believe in decorum, but not in discrimination and intimidation. And women are intimidated by social scorn, and as a doula, I feel I have some expertise in speaking here. Women do stay home when they feel ashamed about breastfeeding in public, and yes, sometimes babies breastfeed every ten minutes. You can't put a six week old on a feeding schedule, research definitively shows that can disrupt adequate growth.

I don't mean to get hot here, but women need support while breastfeeding, not scorn.

[efhmc]

72. Thanks for taking the time to educate those who are willing to

open up their minds and learn.

[Djinn]

102. if your baby feeds every ten minutes

how practical is it to go anywhere anyway?

[efhmc]

104. Maybe to keep from going insane and those 10 minutes spurts would not

last all day. There is also sleeping time.

[Pithlet]

120. It isn't very practical

to never leave the home these days. Babies aren't like timers, and it isn't always easy to predict when they will get hungry. And, hungry babies go from "I'm feeling a little peckish, mom" to "Feed me right this second" at an astonishingly rapid rate, particularly in the first six months before they start eating solids. At any rate, six months is an awfully long time to be confined to the home because someone else might get a glimpse of your boob, because you chose to breastfeed.

Really, it's a "you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't" kind of thing. If you refrain from feeding your baby, or try to get them to take a bottle when a bottle just won't do, and they start to scream their head off, you'll usually get "Please shut that thing off" looks within seconds. So, might as well breastfeed the baby. Everyone is almost always happier that way. I did it hundreds of times without incident, so I don't get the big deal anyway.

[Djinn]

128. I agree

I don't know why some people have a problem with it but there's a lot of things I don't have a problem with that you can't do in public or can't do at all legally.

While I know they'er not ALL comparable to breastfeeding, I also think there are (very very few I admit) some women who want someone to complain about it just so they can get a wee bitty righteous and go out of their way to be obtrusive about it

[Pithlet]

136. Could be

But, I think that outrage against breastfeeding in public would qualify more as righteous than the responses to that outrage. I personally think "Oh My God, Women Breastfeeding in Public! Alert the press!" deserves to get laughed at more than anything. But, the puritanical bullshit that goes on in the US does get tiresome. Our soon to be ex Attorney General demanded that the breasts on a statue be covered. You can't make that up. Talk about righteous. It's enough to drive a girl into a fit of sarcastic responses.

I think being told that you can't feed your baby in public qualifies for a genuine indignant response. Equating it with lascivious behavior qualifies for even more. I think that women too often get accused of being righteous, or my personal favorite, "whiny victims", when they have a legitimate gripe. Sometimes that accusation is used to shame someone into backing down, as well, and that gets my ire up more than anything. Besides, what's the point of frequenting a political board if you aren't going to occasionally get passionate about SOMETHING?

[fleabert]

165. Right on sister! n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

155. I breatfed both my kids in public in the early 80s

I covered up. Any child too old to cover up during breast feeding is old enough to make it through a restaurant visit without being nursed.

[fleabert]

58. hear hear!

Absolutely! I don't get it either. A breast sole FUNCTION is to produce milk for an infant, we are mammals. It is an added bonus that it feels good to have them stimulated when not breastfeeding (for some), and because of the male drive for procreation, men see them as attractive. We are socialized to see the breast as sexual, as evidenced by so many cultures which do not and women are continually exposed above the waist.

[immoderate]

171. A breast has more than one function.

As I stated above, other mammalian species can feed their young without the prominant breasts that humans have. If you are saying that the breast has no sexual function (and I don't mean that it's a socialized learned thing) then you might want to get some get some knowledge of ethnology under your belt.

The sexual function of the breast is genetic, not learned.

--IMM

[fleabert]

179. If breasts had a 'function' in sexual activity

then why do not all women get the same sexual response to stimulation? We are the only mammal that develops expanded mammary tissue prior to pregnancy, but the jury is out on why this happens. Most say that it is to attract mates, and I agree. It is not social that we develop breasts, but it is social that Western society has oversexualized the breast to the point where a breast is ONLY seen as a sexual body part. While I will admit to a lack of knowledge in the area of ethnology, I do not accept that the breasts function is not to produce milk for our offspring. Perhaps your definition of 'function' is academic and mine is not.

We make milk when pregnant, it is perfectly designed for the infant we produce at all times, it is age specific in fat and calorie content as the child ages, it is the perfect temperature, it never spoils in the breast, it is ready at a moments notice, a babies mouth is perfectly designed to remove the milk (we have yet to make something that comes close) Babies sight at birth is perfect for doing one thing, breastfeed. Nipples darken to make this even easier, the distance babies can see is exactly within the distance from mom's nipple to eyes to facilitate bonding, etc... I could go on and on.

Then you have sexual 'function': It feels good to have my breasts and nipples touched, in a variety of ways. It stimulates the rest of my reproductive system to prepare for sex. That's it.

I guess I should amend to say that the 'function' of breastfeeding is primary for all, and singular for some.

[immoderate]

183. I said more than one function!

What are the function of the (male) peacocks feathers? To attract a mate. The differences in male and female physignomy are sexual, part of the whole process involved in reproduction.

To say that breasts are only for feeding, or only for tactile stimulation is erroneous.

I'll suspend what I said about ethnology as my dictionary doesn't support the biological facets that I had supposed, and I'm not going to go for other sources right now, as it doesn't affest my argument.

[fleabert]

185. okay.

You might be talking over my head, or I only got three hours of sleep, but I think we sort-of agree?

I'm willing to admit that 'primary' could have preceded 'function' in my previous posts.

[immoderate]

200. Nice to find common ground.

I don't know about what is primary?

What would you say is the "primary" function of lips?

Breasts could be used to attract a mate, before there would ever be a need for them to provide sustanence. So what does "primary" mean? Which comes "first"?

--IMM

[fleabert]

205. Okay,

but what of women with very small breasts (think Gwyneth Paltrow pre-baby) who are able to attract and procreate. Large breasts then only develop as a result of the pregnancy and go away after weaning.

Is this a chicken/egg issue?

it is nice to discuss rather than argue and name call, thanks. :pals:

[immoderate]

220. Chicken/egg is a good point.

As to the fine details, :shrug:, I know men who are particularly attracted to women with small breasts, as well as those who love large breasts. In such matters, despite my screen name, I am moderate. There is much more to the notion of what is sexually attractive, and it is more complex than isolating one feature, though there are those that specialize.

I hope I avoided name calling, I do try. As do you, and I surely respect that. :pals: I noted your posts throughout this thread and your civility is prominent.

There are some who provoke it, and then I try even harder, not always with complete success. Then there are those that are offended just by people disagreeing with them. I wonder what they come to DU for, LOL.

BTW, I think there may be problem with the smilies.

--IMM

[fleabert]

227. I wonder too,

why those who offend so easily come to forums at all. I am personally very passionate about this subject, hence the plethora of posts here, but I try very hard (sometimes with success, sometimes not) to remain civil and respectful. It is how I expect to be treated, you know the golden rule thing.

I am human and can become unhinged at times, but it always ends up debasing the arguement from substance to personality conflict, so I am learning.

As per this thread, I don't know how to solve it without the arguement that the US is uber-focused on the breast as solely a sexual body part. It is intrinsic to why I think so many are offended by witnessing breastfeeding. Careful scrutiny of worldwide perspective on bf shows this to be true, IMO. I like having boobs, my husband is happy I have a good set, but when a baby comes along it is understood that they are finally going to be put to real use, and I will do it in public. I would be one of those that would attend a nurse-in and protest anyone telling me not to feed my kid.

as an aside, a personal story:

before I ever considered becoming a doula or becoming pregnant for that matter, I worked at a theme park as a lifeguard. I got promoted to a supervisor role and was working the kiddie area one day and a man approached me complaining about a woman exposing herself to children. I looked for her when he said that and saw she was breastfeeding, discreetly in the corner of the outdoor seating area in the middle of the kiddie area. I went back to him and said (a 19 yr old talking to a 40 something yr old) and said -sorry sir, but she's feeding her baby, not exposing herself. I won't tell her to stop any more than I will tell the woman next to her giving her baby a bottle to stop.- he got irate and I told him he could speak to her if he wanted but I would not do it.

He said he was going to get me fired and so I gave him my name and the location of Guest Services to write a complaint on me. He asked to speak to my supervisor, so I called him on the radio and he came down to speak to him. I was nervous, but felt strongly that I was right.

My supervisor completely agreed with me and told the guy to basically not look if he didn't want to see it. This came from a 24 yr old guy!

Our park had very strict rules on exposure, no thongs, no foul language on clothing, no offensive tattoos could be exposed, no topless bathing, etc... very family friendly. And the bottom line for management's interpretation (this was further discussed later that day by upper management) of "family friendly" was that breastfeeding was a normal part of family life and would not be restricted in any way.

I was so proud to work there! This park also built an entire building for mother's and father's to take care of kids, fridge for storing milk, rocking chairs, pillows, toys, private rooms for breastfeeding or diaper changing, etc... it was awesome.

[immoderate]

241. I like that we are human beings striving to be civil.

Funny, I'm involved in another thread right now with someone who is trying to call me names and I am resisting treating in kind. You'd be proud.

And if I may, since you brought it up, you say:

I like having boobs, my husband is happy I have a good set, but when a baby comes along it is understood that they are finally going to be put to real use, and I will do it in public.

You have a husband and he is happy about them, so I'll submit that is also a "real use." It's part of the bond you two have formed, and does not diminish whatever other reasons there may be. We're built that way. (Pun intended.)

Um, pardon my ignorance. What's a doula? It's not done with swords, I assume.

--IMM

[fleabert]

245. :-)

Actually, he's more of an 'ass-man', LOL!

A doula provides professional labor and birth support to women and their families. I usually take on a client around the 6 or 7 month point in pregnancy and help them make decisions about their care, I am an advocate during labor and birth in any setting, home, hospital, or birth center.

here's a link for more information: www.dona.org

BTW- to bring this back to DU issues, DONA (doula's of north america) has a volunteer program for moms whose husbands or partners are serving in the military and might be alone during labor and birth. It is totally free and a wonderful program. Email DONA for more information, I haven't been involved with DONA since I moved, so I am pretty sure they are still doing it, but don't see a link on the site. I will find out for sure and post when I find out.

[immoderate]

261. Sounds like a good program!

I would confer commendations upon you if I thought I had the power to confer commendations.

It does ring a little bell. I've heard of this service. I'm assuming that pregnant women are among those most needful of this kind of support, especially if they don't have extended family.

As for me, I am always willing to do my part, and will go anywhere to perform breast examinations without charge;).

--IMM

[fleabert]

285. that's *almost* funny!

I know they had the program going a year ago, but not sure anymore, no one has been able to call me back yet, but I will keep it top of mind and post it soon.

Doula's are non-judgemental, educated labor support. my bottom line is that I provide the information in as unbiased a form as possible, tell them if I am biased, and support their decisions no matter what. (unless it's snorting coke or abuse or obvious stuff like that)

We also help out in the home afterward to help families adjust to the new baby. Doula is greek for 'servant' and used to be a role held by extended female family members who had experienced childbirth. Modern familiy patterns have changed, but we women still benefit from female support. (there's only one male doula that I have heard of, but I think there are men who would be great at it)

[noiretextatique]

303. actually...it's not funny at all

and tends to discredit the poster's argument, imho.

[fleabert]

304. I am hoping he intended that as tongue in cheek,

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until they disappoint. But, I also didn't think it was funny, unless he made 'tune in tokyo' hands while saying it. J/K.

If I don't laugh I'll scream.

[immoderate]

311. Look at the smilie I used.

So it wasn't my best joke.

Do you think that when breasts are commonly referred to as "boobs" they are off limits to jokes? Do I smell false piety?

--IMM

[fleabert]

325. No, boobs can be funny...

just like dicks can. >wink wink<

Certainly no piety here, like I said, I thought you were being silly, but it was *almost* funny, not funny funny. This thread is a place where we are talking pretty seriously about breasts and women in general, to bring it down to a joke about you wanting to touch boobs kind of trivializes it. I don't think you meant any harm or foul, but I can see how some would be bothered by it.

[noiretextatique]

302. other species...but not humans

the human female breasts are designed to feed babies. where is your evidence to the contrary? i'm not sure that all human cultures have fethished breasts the way this culture has.

[Djinn]

99. you're equating

the thoroughly reheresed and consensual removal of an artical of OUTER clothing during a concert (she didn't just happen to have something on underneath) with rape???

Ass cracks are also natural things that for thousands of years people showed freely.

Personally I couldn't care less if people breast feed all over the place but my mother managed four of us including one who had to go with her to lectures every day, without ever having to whip them out overtly, probably more to do with Scottish temp's than anything else admittedly.

My boobs are natural and there isn't anything inherently sexual about them either but I can't walk around without a top without being arrested - it's about understanding that not everyone shares your views on what on the body needs to be shown and having a little bit of respect for other people.

Flame away

[Pithlet]

109. No, I'm not

I believe I said "simulated". I do not think it was rape. At any rate, it is ludicrous to equate breastfeeding with that event.

You can't walk around without a top on. If breastfeeding had ANYTHING to do with that, you would have a point. I'm certainly not advocating that. Indeed, I would agree that an exhibitionist is probably pushing their own views willfully on everyone else.

Breastfeeding is not about willfully exposing any part of your body to another person. It is about feeding a baby. Period. Everything else, all of the "Exposure! Indecent! Discretion!" blustering is about other people's hangups. Not the baby's. And not the woman who is doing something that that particular body part is MEANT to do.

Edited: willing/willful. Gah!

[Djinn]

110. THAT's what many cafe etc owners object to

"You can't walk around without a top on...I'm certainly not advocating that"

A friend of mine was working in a cafe a few years back and a customer who was breastfeeding gave her sprog to her companion, got up and walked to the drinks fridge and then back boobs out all the way - the kid wasn't even with her let alone attached - my friend couldn't have cared less and knew her boss wouldn't either she did know that the elderly ladies also in the cafe WOULD complain and they did - they were regulars and they came in big groups - the breastfeeding women wasn't.

Some women do actually seem to want to make a big announcement about it (a very small minority) and are quite militant at being able to whip it out anywhere and everywhere.

My boobs are SUPPOSED to sit happily on my chest but I'm not able to walk around topless, most women just need to feed their kid some want to make a rather militant point at the expense of other people - like my friend who found herself in the uneviable position of having her customers hate her.

[Pithlet]

111. "sprog"

How cute. Lovingly used pet names for babies and children aside, your anecdote does not serve as an argument against breastfeeding in public.

Yes. You aren't allowed to walk around topless. That has been established. But, walking around topless, and breastfeeding, aren't the same thing. If a baby isn't attached to her breast, and she is walking around with her boob exposed, then she actually isn't breastfeeding at that time now is she? It is very difficult to walk around while nursing, and it is certainly difficult to do so in a sexy, "I'm exposing myself, aren't I avant guard" kind of way. I would fully expect to get kicked out of a public joint for doing something like that. You get no argument there.

Edit: Sprog. Spellcheck didn't recognize that term, shockingly enough.

[Djinn]

129. it's actually

a pretty common slang word for kids where I come from - see Mad Max - sorry if it offended anyone delicate sensibilities

and it wasn't meant to serve as anything let alone an argument against breastfeeding in public - you'll note I've said repeatedly I couldn't give a stuff if everyone walked around naked 24/7 - but other people do find it confronting for them - again not saying their views should win out, just thats why SOME restaurant etc owners object because THEY'RE damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Chill - whip 'em out all the time as far as I'm concerned...sheesh

[Pithlet]

144. "Delicate sensibilities"

Sprog is considered a derogatory term, particularly on the internet, as the more insulting child-free sites just love that term, and they aren't using it as a compliment, to put it mildly. It's certainly been used here at DU in an insulting manor before. That's not just according to me, even if some may think of me as a fragile flower. And, the context you were using it didn't seem like you meant to use the term as innocent common slang, because you certainly weren't talking about the woman in the story or her actions in a flattering tone otherwise. It is easy to misunderstand one's intentions on a message board, though, and easy to jump to conclusions. If I misread you, I apologize. It could just be that message board kind of misunderstanding.

But, I also get the feeling that is being insinuated in more than one response to me by you in this thread that you have deemed me one of those women who overreact to everything, at least in this thread. That is the vibe I'm getting, anyway. That you really aren't all that worried about my "delicate sensibilities". And, that you think people defending the woman kicked out of a public place, and responding to the negative posts about breastfeeding by others are, to use your words, being a wee bitty righteous. That just seems weird coming from someone who claims they aren't bothered by public breastfeeding. It certainly isn't very supportive, no pun intended.

In all honesty, I've found some of the other responses in this thread, none of which are yours, to be unintentionally hilarious, and sometimes that sarcastic part of me just can't resist. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone's sensibilities, as well.

[Joe the Revelator]

146. What are you talking about?

I've spent a lot of time, on a lot of different message boards, and i have never heard the word "Sprog" before today, and certainly not heard it used in a "derogatory" manner.



As for my feelings on breast-feeding in public i think it depends on the situation. If (god forbid) you brought your baby into a restraint, i think it would be polite NOT to let the baby suck on you nipple at the dinner table. To me it would be akin to me pissing into my water glass: a perfectly natural phenomenon that not everybody wants to see while they eat.

[fleabert]

175. I just don't understand this perspective.

The baby IS eating.

I don't get it. Breastmilk is food. Urine is a waste product. people eat at restaurants, why should breastfed babies be excluded? And, it's the law that mother's may breastfeed in public, it has never been illegal to do so in public, in any state. See posts above for links to current laws.

[Djinn]

204. Honestly wasn't meant as an insult

it really is used pretty commonly to refer to little kids (toddlers) where I am, I refer to all my friends kids as sprog and so do they. I'll try not to use it here (or be more careful about context) if it's generally used derogatively in US.

Honestly wasn't dissing you or the woman in the original story, particularly if no other customers complained there should not have been an issue (and there shouldn't have been anyway in my opinion) - too much devil's advocate posting on my behalf.

:)

[phylny]

148. Pretty common? Disgustingly offensive.

The word is meant to be demeaning, that's why it's offensive. Same thing with "breeders." Not meant to be endearing, so no one should be shocked when the word is found to be offensive.

[Djinn]

211. sorry but it ISN'T derogatory

where I'm from - it's NOT demeaning at all, it's usually affectionate even rather than "tone neutral".

Don't assume that what YOU find offensive everyone else does too, particularly in another country, I have said I was unaware it had nasty connotations in US and that I'll keep that in mind from now on -but it was NOT meant to be an insult, but thanks for telling me what I meant.

[phylny]

348. I wasn't telling you what you meant, I was responding to how

I interpret the word.

I'm sure you didn't mean any offense. Sorry if I offended you.

[fleabert]

166. anecdotal at best,

But I agree that woman, in that situation should not have walked around topless; she wasn't breastfeeding at the time. Perhaps she was so sleep deprived she forgot her top was down?

[buckettgirl]

223. No its not.

I think that a very valid point was raised.
Keep it discreet. Why is that so hard to do?
If you don't like the ass-crack analogy, how about this one.

Public displays of affection: affection/intimacy are perfectly normal, natural beautiful things. Others know it happens, yet not every wishes to see it happening.

Why don't you understand that some people are genuinely repulsed by breastfeeding when a mother is not discreet about it?

Or how about this: how would you feel if you saw a new mother breastfeeding her baby in public, but you could never have children of your own and never have that experience? Are you going to take that pain away?
You people have such a one-sided view of things.
I'm all for breastfeeding, but only when done discreetly in public.
You also need to remember that not every person who sees you likes babies or thinks your baby is the most adorable thing on the planet, or cares if your baby is hungry. You don't need to flame them, thats just life.

[One_of_8]

341. I've never seen a couple kicked out of a restaurant

for kissing each other at their table. I agree with the comment that public displays of passionate affection embarrass me. So I avert my eyes and continue on my way.

Most nursing mothers are primarily focused on feeding their hungry baby. I nursed my child, and under any other circumstance, I would never dream of exposing my breast(s) in public. But as I quickly learned, when a baby is hungry, IT'S GO TIME!. the needs of the child take priority over the squeamishness of some people who think it would be more appropriate to feed an infant in a public restroom.

If you do not care to watch a mother breastfeed her child, why not simply avert your eyes? That would certainly be a much more polite and courteous response. Or perhaps if it greatly offends you, you could approach the manager of the restaurant and ask if you could be seated at a table away from the mother and child, and then select a seat at that table that faces away from the sight that so offends you.

[Left Is Write]

45. Are you aware that is is absolutely possible...

...to breastfeed in public discreetly? If it's okay to bottlefeed a baby in public, it's okay to breastfeed a baby in public. Should nursing mothers stay home for months at a time to avoid possibly having to feed their babies in a public place?

[barb162]

56. Are they nursing every ten minutes or something??? Come on, get

real. What kind of silly argument is this...staying home for months? Every nursing mother I have known has not stayed home at all except for immediately after the birth ( and most were out within the next few days (if not the next day) after birth).

[Left Is Write]

64. Many babies eat every hour.

I should "get real"? Maybe you should get real. It is unreasonable to expect nursing mothers to completely avoid any possibility of nursing in public - that *is* the same as asking them to stay home.

I'm not the one with a silly argument. I'm not the one expecting mothers to refrain from nursing in public places. I'm not the one comparing breastfeeding to showing off one's hind end. Why on earth is this country so squeamish about breasts being used for their intended purpose?

[Pithlet]

70. No. Babies should go hungry

so the boob obsessed can find other things to get indignant about. Doesn't that make sense?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

190. My son wanted to nurse all the time when he wasn't

sleeping (for the first couple of months).

[Sleepysage]

50. Do you have a right to not be offended?

Answer: nope.

If we banned everything that made someone squeamish, everything would be banned.

[seabeyond]

53. i have watched women breast feed, discrete

couldnt see a thing, wouldnt even know it was going on if you werent paying attention. at a certain point in life, one may need to ask themselves if it is their own inhibitions that are being pushed on the rest of the world.

[barb162]

57. discretion should not be confused with inhibition

[Pithlet]

67. and inhibition has no place when discussing breastfeeding

It's just not an exhibitionist thing to do, no matter how much you want to try to paint it that way. If it offends your sensibilities so much, turn your head just a few degrees, and it will look just like a mother holding her baby always does. You have to look pretty hard to see breast exposure, anyway. I really wish the booby inspection crowd would just leave mothers alone, and stick to super bowl halftime shows.

[barb162]

73. "you want to try to paint " My, my, there are more people here

who seem to know what I want and think. Such mind readers. No one seems to deal with the important word I used: D-I-S-C-R-E-T-I-O-N.

[efhmc]

76. Perhaps you should use some discretion and simply move away from

an American mother who has the right to be in public nursing her baby.
Problem solved.

[fleabert]

82. absolutely, speaking of rights, here are the laws in TX

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/Bills36.html

'anywhere the mother has a right to be'

[fleabert]

78. your definition of what is discreet and my def. might be totally different

Perhaps those judging should be more tolerant. The bottom line is that feeding a child is necessary for their life. I will whip it out whenever or wherever if my kid needs it, public be damned. I encourage all mothers to do so, whether they whip out a boob, a bottle, a jar of smashed peas, or the cheerios.

On a very selfish note, I wish more mothers were quick to bf in public, keep those kids from screaming while I eat. The kid can't cry (and usually doesn't want to) if their mouth is full of nipple!

(this is tongue in cheek, btw)

[Pithlet]

88. You can spell. Yay!

Now that that's out of the way...

Women aren't purposefully exposing their breast when they breastfeed. It's not about exposure. Your insistence that the only way to be discreet (I believe that is D-I-S-C-R-E-E-T, correct me if I'm wrong) is total absence of breastfeeding in public is what is being questioned.

[noiretextatique]

299. you should tell the publishers of PLAYBOY, HUSTLER

PENTHOUSE and all the rest about that word :eyes:

[tjdee]

54. Not many women take off their shirts and exclaim I'M SHOWING MY BOOBIE!

Most breastfeeding mothers I've ever known are as discreet as possible when breastfeeding--as someone above said, they're not doing a dance and waving their bare breasts around.

Yes, it is okay to be uncovered when breastfeeding. They are probably flashing less boob than you see at any club on Saturday night or on MTV. And again, that is what the breast is for.

I never breastfed in public, btw.

[LeftyMom]

90. Speak for yourself!

My mom fed me wherever the hell she felt like and I was almost a year and a half before I deigned to let any food other than the real deal pass my lips. I never took a bottle, either, so all that liquid gold was straight form the tap. So before you insult any other moms out there who braved societal condemnation to do what was right for thier kids I suggest apologize to my mother.

I nursed my kid wherever the hell he got hungry. I couldn't afford any of those pricey tops with the slits for nursing in them, but I managed not to expose myself (not that I really give a shit) without some booby burqa/blanket of shame over my kid's head and my evil, nutritious but incredibly sexy boobs. How? My son's big fat melon head was in the way! Funny how that worked! ;)

Bottom line: a child's right to be fed the healthiest food availible in the healthiest manner available trumps the preference of immature adults not to be tittilated (snort!,) offended, confused or reminded of thier past failures.

[fleabert]

92. Congrats from me to your mom and you!

:loveya:

[LeftyMom]

115. Thanks!

I didn't nurse for as long as I feel I ought to have, but plan to do better next time around. Thanks to reale shops I have all the equipment (boobs, spiffy nursing clothes, sling, hospital-grade pump) so as soon as the economics of the situation are favorable I'll see what LeftyDad and I can do about another baby. :) I've got a few other ideas about things I'd like to do differently this time, starting with staying the heck outta the hospital.

[fleabert]

122. I am also a homebirth advocate and supporter,

so if you want to email me directly, I would be glad to try and help in any way I can!

(best birth I ever attended was twins at home! Planned at home at full term!)

[LeftyMom]

126. That's great!

What are your feelings on planned UC? That's likely what we'll be doing next time, absent big developments or a major change of heart on my part.

[Cheswick2.0]

158. so you were that obnoxious kid always sticking her head under moms

shirt no matter where or when the urge struck you. I used to feel sorry for your mom being treated like a drink dispenser. I wondered when she was going to teach you some public manners and reclaim her body.
She was the one who used to grin indulgently when you stuck pop tarts in my VCR too.

[fleabert]

167. Isn't this more of a condemnation of parental restrictions

and less about breastfeeding? If you don't like to see children breastfeeding: don't look! If you are friends with someone whose kid puts pop tarts in your VCR, perhaps you shouldn't invite them over.

[Cheswick2.0]

174. LOL, way to miss the point

I am dead serious. These mothers have no idea of how to start setting social limits for their kids.

[fleabert]

187. Perhaps they set different limits than you would.

don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the 'let them do anything' parenting, but I don't think toddlers who are still breastfeeding necessarily need to be discreet at home. Depends on what is okay for the family.

In public, maybe more restraint should be taught, maybe it is a good time to teach toddlers impluse suppression. I know it doesn't bother me to see a toddler go up to a mom and start bf, I think it's sweet, and all too uncommon.

[Phillycat]

189. Years ago, while waiting tables...

I saw a woman breastfeeding her son and this kid had to be 4, or almost 4. He was walking, talking, the whole thing. When he laid on her lap, his feet dangled to the floor.

I am sorry, but that is very disturbing.

[fleabert]

198. I don't have a problem with it.

How do you know the kid wasn't a big 3? Three is within the worldwide average for continued breastfeeding.

[Phillycat]

216. I am sorry, but if a child has teeth, he should be eating solid food.

Not to mention he is probably going to school or preschool. How much of a freak are his friends going to think he is?

That is totally out of the bounds of normalcy. That is gross.

[Ilsa]

222. Sorry, that's not true.

The average age for weaning worldwide is around 3 1/2 years. Solids are introduced around the middle of the first year when the baby shows signs of readiness, and teeth are not listed as a sign. Babies should be breastfed their first year, solids added around the middle of that year. Breastfeeding continues to be healthy for both mother (lower breast cancer risk, among other things) and baby beyond the first year, including into toddlerhood.

I nursed my kids until they were three and four. As they got well beyond their first year, I didn't nurse them in public much at all as I was teaching them patience ("we have to wait").

BTW, I've lowered my risk for breast cancer something like 30-35% by breastfeeding long term.

[fleabert]

228. I was going to respond to that, but you did so well!

I might only refer anyone who is curious to know the medical info about extended breastfeeding (bf past one year) should check with the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and any of Dr. Sears writings. Not to mention any anthropological writings about motherhood or breastfeeding.

Minimum of one year for AAP
Minimum of two years for WHO

after that, "as long as is mutually beneficial"

and the breast cancer info is absolutly correct, the longer you bf, the better- for all involved.

[Phillycat]

305. "Worldwide" doesn't really apply to this situation.

We are talking about breastfeeding a walking, talking CHILD (not baby). And we are talking about it in the context of OUR society, like it or lump it. You live in our society, and our society says it is simply wrong to breastfeed a child who is old enough to buy school lunches. And I agree with our society on that.

Women who insist on extending breastfeeding well into the child years are doing their child a HUGE mental disservice. Maybe physically it's beneficial, but can you imagine what mental and emotional harm you are doing? Come on now. I have refrained thus far from making value judgements as much as possible on this thread, but that is disgusting.

[noiretextatique]

307. what is the "harm?"

besides the judgement of some who claim they represent the views of "society?" hint: not everyone in this society feels the way you do.

[Phillycat]

309. I don't set or represent the views of society.

But this is obvious. Please don't be deliberately obtuse. Do you know anyone outside of extreme breastfeeding advocates who think it's even a little bit okay to breastfeed a 4-year old child?

[noiretextatique]

329. yeah...women who have no other options

like no food or no money...i can imagine there are a lot of women in the world in this category. and i'll add women who live in cultures that don't associate breast-feeding with sexuality. probably the same cultures where many people are broke and hungry.

[fleabert]

383. WHO and the AAP

in some cultures (yes other cultures reside in the US) breastfeed past 5. Some perspective on this:

Extended breastfeeding is not exclusive, we're talking about once or twice a day, sometimes not even everyday. Child let weaning can occur at two years or 4, the recommendation is a "Don't offer, Don't refuse" system. If the child didn't want to do it, a rational mother of an older toddler who had done some research wouldn't force it.

WHO and AAP both state 'as long as is mutually beneficial' with no age limit given. please do a little reading before you try to call anyone who thinks it's okay to follow the advice of the leading world and local authorities on health 'obtuse'. It isn't inherently disgusting, it's just disgusting to you. don't do it if you don't like it, but get off other womens choices.

[msanthrope]

313. That's an old wives tale--tooth development has nothing

to do with appropriate weaning.

[fortyfeetunder]

287. Why is nursing a toddler disturbing?

Because the kid is seeking comfort (and nutrition)?

I nursed my kid until he quit cold turkey two months shy of his 4th birthday. It has been the best investment I ever made. The kid is rarely if ever sick. I have about about 6wks sick leave that I accumulated since he was born over 7 yrs agao. We don't see the doctor except for well child appts.

And I had no compunction about nursing anywhere. I didn't give a rip and no one ever challenged me on it.

(And to put in a plug for nursing clothes...I found a website for nursing clothes patterns www.elizabethlee.com They are designed for discreet nursing. The patterns are mostly easy.

[DebJ]

197. What happened to women breastfeeding in public? They were

brainwashed by large American conglomerates to believe breastfeeding was bad for their babies, and that doing it was somehow nasty or indecent. So those conglomerates could make money...the babies didn't get everything that the babies needed, but the conglomerates made LOTS of money.... Same Shit, Different Decade

What these same conglomerates did to African babies is a real horror story....those babies REALLY depend on breastmilk for survival and health, as the rest of the diet is so bad...it was like genocide.

[fleabert]

238. great post, very important. n/t

[efhmc]

352. I am not by nature a violent person but this makes me militant.

So very, very very WRONG!!!

[Ilsa]

219. She was not breaking the law!!! Texas law is on the mother's side.

The nurse-in may have created a problem if the mothers weren't ordering food, and they may have been entitled to be asked to leave, but the original mother at the restaurant was within her legal rights to breastfeed there in public.

[minerva50]

247. My mother did breast feed me in public,

thank you very much. In 1950 America. Our mothers and Grandmothers did so for centuries before.

[noiretextatique]

280. no..it's backwards

what is so offensive about feeding a baby?

[fleabert]

284. actually, public breastfeeding was very common throughout history

in this country. It is only recently that anyone has had a problem with it. It has historically been viewed as a necessity.

[Jazzgirl]

55. I don't get this!

I remember back in the late 50's and all through the 60's when I was a kid seeing women nurse their babies anywhere, including in church. I don't understand how we could be moving so far backwards so fast. I feel like I'm in some kind of time warp! :mad:

[efhmc]

59. Wake up and smell the bushies. Backwards is what it is all about.

[barb162]

62. backwards= backwards, discretion= discretion. check a dictionary

you might learn something. You sound like a bushie to me with your name-calling.

[efhmc]

69. Interesting, there was no one called a name in that post. I simply equated

the backwardness of our society today with the bush administration.

[barb162]

61. "I was a kid seeing women nurse their babies " ...not where I grew

up which was a very large northern city. Never, ever saw it. ANd I am sure if any one did it, they would have been labelled a yahoo of the first order.

[efhmc]

66. So are you saying that such labeling is a good thing ?

To call a nursing mom who is feeding her baby out in public a "yahoo" is what we want in our society?

[fleabert]

74. this is the problem!

Many in our culture did not grow up seeing the very natural act of breastfeeding, so more women need to do it to change the course for future generations!

It is normal! I encourage you to read Sarah Blafferty Hrdy's book, 'Mother Nature', A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection. It is a wonderful anthropological history of motherhood and might give you some insight into my point (others too). Not that you need to change your mind, just asking you to see our side.

I hope you change your mind someday, but understand if I am not the one to do it! :hug: I am trying to remember that we are on the same team here. :-)

[efhmc]

79. Thanks for the third time for being the voice of reason and insight.

[fleabert]

83. If you are trying to make friends, I am so there!

I can get hot about this, if it were two years ago, I don't think I would have deserved any compliments! I have gotten better at it, and more understanding of the other side. We have decades of socialization to overcome and it will take time and lots and lots of breastfeeding!

[LeftyMom]

91. My apologies to you.

We do indeed live in a sick society.

[scarface2004]

84. my three sons were breastfed...

and they will never be republikans!! that s why the cafe wanted them to stop!!!

[efhmc]

86. Mother's milk is liberal milk and no had to pay for it so no corporate

profit.

[fleabert]

89. Agreed, the money involved in formula production and distribution

worldwide is staggering. If all moms only knew what went into convincing them not to breastfeed...I am sure some would not choose formula.

It does have its place though, some women have very valid reasons not to breastfeed and I am glad there is a reasonable alternative. I just wish more people knew about milk banks and other options too. Too many women give up on breastfeeding because of the lack of support, from family and society at large, which is the root of this thread.

[Ilsa]

224. Sorry, sister, but the milk banks are very low on supply, and

what they have is reserved for the very sickest of preemies and newborns whose mothers cannot provide milk. We need more moms willing to make the commitment for the screening and to provide 100 oz. to the banks.

[fleabert]

231. I agree!

Too many people don't even know they exist! I have several friends who have pumped for each other. One had twins and needed more than she had in the beginning (babies didn't suck strongly enough to stimulate a stong let down) so her best friend would pump and give it to her. She supplemented with an SNS* and upped her own supply within a couple of weeks.

There are other options between breast and formula!

1. direct from breast
2. supplement pumped milk at the breast with SNS
3. pump and bottle feed and supplement at breast
4. pump and bottle feed only
5. milk bank (if available)(SNS or bottle)
6. personal donation bottle feed
7. supplement breast with formula with SNS
8. formula feed

SNS: supplemental nursing system
http://www.breastfeed-essentials.com/accessories.html

More women need to donate!!!!!!!

[fleabert]

87. funny!

someone should do a study...

although I am sure there are plenty of formula fed babies who grew up to be rabid smart liberals!

[fleabert]

85. Breastfeeding history: Laws in the US

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/NBNovDec94p164.html

[Liberal Mommy]

93. Ugh, I live in Round Rock

Makes me wish I hadn't stopped nursing a few months back or I'd be headed over there tomorrow. I fed all my little ones on demand. Whether it be every half hour or hour, I never made them wait for a meal. I nursed no matter where I was. That includes many Round Rock restaurants, grocery stores, & department stores. I was never approached. It is my right as a mother to be able to feed my child when he is hungry. And I certainly don't give a damn if it makes anyone uncomfortable.

[efhmc]

95. Did this make the news there?

[Liberal Mommy]

98. Well I don't watch the news any more

But I'm still thinking about going by the restaurant and having my say. I'm very angry to hear they refused to serve her. Good thing I wasnt there or my big mouth would have got me in some trouble! If you have any questions DesertedRose I'd be more than happy to try and help. And most of all congratulations. :)

[AspenRose]

97. This thread is a godsend - shameless appeal for help

I'm 6 mos. along with my first and plan to breastfeed, but haven't been able to make any La Leche meetings (grad school).

Obviously there are enough informed DUers here (a doula even! I plan to have one at L & D) so I am appealing for e-mails regarding 'scheduling' vs. 'on-demand' feeding.

I'm currently reading the 'Baby Whisperer' book...I KNOW to stay away from 'Babywise.'

PLEASE e-mail me and send advice re: 'flexible schedule' v. 'on-demand.'

Thank you ladies :hi:

Oh, and that cafe in Round Rock sounds like it's run by a backwards ass, sorry.

[efhmc]

101. Sounds like fleabert is the gal to help you. They are many others

also. My days are now as a gm but I wish you the best and try to trust your own instincts also. Blessings.

[fleabert]

117. I'll be happy to help any way I can

even just by email! I will email you soon, (SO is begging for the computer!)

congrats on deciding to have a doula! I wouldn't do it any other way! :-)

[LeftyMom]

141. If you need breastfeeding advice

take a look at kellymom.com (which has a rather scathing critique of the babyWhisperer book, if I rememer correctly) and the forums at mothering.com. Both are invaluble. Baby Whisperer is too scheduled and not nearly pro-breastfeeding enough for my tastes, try Dr Sears' Breastfeeding Book of Baby Book for a good explanation of on demand feeding (he's got a website, too.)

[Cheswick2.0]

176. you will figure out what is right for you

remember you are still a person even after you are a mommy. Take your needs into consideration as much as the child's. A frantic exhausted depressed mother is not a good thing for anyone involved.

[fleabert]

232. I absolutly agree.

Good decisions are educated ones. We all feel empowered by decisions made from a full understanding of all the options available to us. What one decides with one child may not work for the next, it is important to see all sides and make decisions that are best for us at the time.

[Swamp Rat]

100. Yet, another reason to boycott Texas... no feeding babies in public.

Ridiculous. :eyes:

[efhmc]

103. Actually those cases were anomalies and that's why they were in the

news. There are many other good reason to boycott my state but that is probably not one.

[Swamp Rat]

119. Oh, I've had many reasons of the years. Here's a recent, BIG one:

[efhmc]

123. Yikes, even scary than normal. If there is a normal.

[Swamp Rat]

124. I guess I should mention that we're infested with alien lizards in LA. too

[efhmc]

127. I am not sure that picture is good for my sleep.

But I am going to try anyway. Goodnight.

[genieroze]

130. Alien lizards?????

Huh????

[Swamp Rat]

131. Didn't you get the memo about the invasion?

[Liberal Mommy]

107. I found a video of the mother talking

You will probably have to register to read the article and watch the video. I love that she is nursing throughout the whole video. Go mommy!!!

Breast-feeding in restaurant sparks conflict

[fleabert]

118. There's also a reported milk shortage at the milk bank in Austin

So any moms with some liquid gold to spare should call!

http://www.kvue.com/news/health/stories/110404kvueBank-eh.254e35d3.html

[fleabert]

121. Thanks for finding that! n/t

[ShaneGR]

132. Private Property

There is nothing built into the law protecting a mothers right to whip out her breast and nurse her child in a restaurant.

[DemBones DemBones]

139. Shane, "whip out her breast" is a very sexist, mistaken "description"

of breastfeeding.

There is something very wrong with a society that has topless bars and thong bikinis yet has some who see a problem with women breastfeeding in public.

[Pithlet]

140. Too late.

Some states already built that law in.

Can that same restaurant refuse service to all women? Or black people? Or kick them out at will? There didn't used to be anything "built into the law" for them either, but thankfully that changed. Private Property does not mean "Do whatever the hell you want" unless it's Libertarian fantasy land, particularly private property that is used for profit from the general public. Your restaurant is not the same thing as your own personal domicile, and the same rules do not apply. If a state wants to protect the rights of a certain group, it can do that. It can certainly tell you that if you want to open up a business to the public to profit from that public, then you cannot discriminate against certain people who are members of that public. If the state decides that nursing mothers qualify, as some have, then, well, them's the breaks.

Don't worry. I don't think you will be forced to let bare breasted women into your personal private home any time soon. I don't think anyone is arguing for that.

[RedTail Wolf]

142. Something so beautiful and natural

should not be looked down on. It's like Asscroft covering the breasts on Lady Justice. These conservative , religious zealots are so freaking up tight their as cheeks must be hurting all the time. Jeeze this kind of stuff makes me crazy!


Take to the streets Brothers and Sisters and take the country back!

RedTail Wolf

[Cheswick2.0]

177. if you had ever done it, you would know it is not always beautiful or

natural. Sometimes it is painful, inconvenient and messy and gives you infections.

[Phillycat]

184. And, god forbid, you give up; then the La Leche women

are incredibly judgemental.

My best friend had her first baby a few years ago. Despite all her best intentions and literally every effort by her, she just couldn't do breastfeeding. She was in pain and the baby wasn't getting enough food. Finally she gave up, and with DEEP SHAME started bottle-feeding with formula.

A few weeks later, she was in a mall and a woman came up and asked if it was breastmilk or formula in the bottle. When my friend said, "Formula", this woman proceeded to BERATE my friend for giving her child substandard nutrition and tell her how she should be ASHAMED of herself. She then threw some pamphlets at my friend and told her to go to La Leche meetings if she didn't want her child to be sickly its whole life.

Since my friend was already ashamed that the breastfeeding hadn't worked, this sent her over the edge and she sobbed right there in the mall.

I find this the worst kind of Nazi-ism, frankly. I think people should do whatever they want to raise their children, and other people should keep ther opinions to themselves.

[fleabert]

259. Please don't use that term...

it is so understandable that you would feel some anger towards the woman who treated your friend so terribly, that's a shame that it is your only introduction to LLL. I find the women there to be compassionate, caring, and supportive. I have attended meetings where women supplement with formula and one that had switched, they were welcomed. Breastmilk is ideal, but sometimes life throws you a curveball and you might decide to go with formula. No one should feel shame about that, especially if they made the decision with the help of an independent lactation consultant, and supportive family and friends (which would constitute 'doing everything' one could do to continue breastfeeding in the face of difficulty)

This anecdotal experience does not give you the right to compare bf advocates like myself and others to the Nazi party. Take a deep breath and think about what you are saying. Those are really harsh, really ugly words. Exactly what are you trying to accomplish by calling us that? I don't want to exterminate bottle feeders. I don't want to round them up and systematically kill them.

I don't discriminate against anyone for their life choices.

edited for content, I initially thought you were the same person who had used the 'nazi' term before, sorry if I got a little pissed.

[Cheswick2.0]

430. I think Tit-Nazi perfectly discribes those woman

I happily breast fed both my sons. But I covered up and I certainly didn't feel the need to do it in public when they were running around the restaurant and talking in complete sentences.

I am sorry to hear about your friend. What a rotten thing for that other woman to do.

[Ilsa]

225. You can get all of those things without breastfeeding, also.

engorgement, mastitis, infection usually come to moms whose breastfeeding has been interrupted for whatever reason.

It's too bad if you couldn't get help for when you had difficulties.

[yellowdogintexas]

145. I nursed my daughter when and where ever she needed it

and I would defy anyone other than maybe her dad to know for sure whether I was feeding her or just cuddling her.

Baby's head really does hide everything. I would just flip the blanket over her while I arranged her, then after that it did not matter.

It does not have to be obvious or blatant.

cheers to those moms for organizing a nurse in.

[sunnystarr]

264. I'm so glad you pointed that out

I kept looking for someone to say that nursing mothers don't stand up in restaurants and make an announcement while they they whip out their boob. What in the world are people disturbed about? I've seen many nursing moms discreetly unbutton their blouse, or pull up their tee-shirt without exposing their boobs and place their baby in the right spot. I've never seen anyone remove their top to nurse.

So my God everyone knows that the baby is sucking from her boob and some turn up their nose to the concept. We really need to get over our Puritanical narrowmindedness.

[yellowdogintexas]

286. agreed!

you said it sunny

Oneof my favorite places to go when she needed to be fed when we were out shopping or what ever was furniture departments in large department stores. I could always find a chair tucked back in a corner out of the way, be comfortable and take care of what she needed. Those are the least trafficky areas of most stores anyway.

In restaurants, I would be sure I sat w/ my back to the room (something I normally HATE To do, since I like to see everything that is going on), or in a corner. It was just never a problem.

If more people just realized how much easier nursing is than lugging all that junk around, more people would do it.

[seabeyond]

156. maybe if this world had a little glimpse

of what the woman body is truly about. maybe why all this reaction to a breast to keep the woman body in the madonna of female. or virgin mary. sometimes it is good to merely see the biological of the body too. we dont honor it much, and truly for me, ah, the essence of female

males get that one, and the madonna will be out to play, all the time. wont have to ever go to the virgin mary

i am so, funny

[GreenPartyVoter]

163. Funny, Dr. Sears say the Bible recommends nursing for the first 3

years of a child's life.

-----------------------------------
Fight the fraud; fund the recount!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[fleabert]

169. Not just the bible...

WHO reccomends at least two years, then for as long as is mutually acceptable for the mother and child.

American Academy of Pediatrics saya "for at least twelve months, and thereafter for as long as mutually desired."

"While mothers who nurse children of one and two and three may be out of step with the prevailing paenting culture, it's really the culture that is out of step with the needs of growing humans. A look beyond Western culture at the beginning of the 21st century reveals that in many human societies, children are nursed until they are three years old or more."

all quotes and information from "The Breastfeeding Book" by Dr. Sears and Mrs. Sears, RN. (2000)

[GreenPartyVoter]

170. I nursed my second for 2 1/2 years, and the only reason we quit was

he had gotten cold sores.

-----------------------------------
Fight the fraud; fund the recount!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[buckettgirl]

186. what is wrong with you???

I don't think that breast-feeding moms need to do so in public without covering up. In fact, if you know you are going to be in public with your baby and you don't want to cover up, then get a breast-pump and a bottle.
I am not against anyone breast-feeding their child, but COME ON! Just because you do, doesn't mean you deserve ANY special consideration.

[Liberal Mommy]

191. You are joking correct?

Some mother's aren't able to pump and provide enough milk for their baby. You certainly aren't saying you would deny a child the right to eat when hungry are you?

[buckettgirl]

199. No i'm not.

Have you ever considered that some people do think it is disgusting when one is not discreet about it - regardless of political or religious affiliation?
Have you ever considered that you may be breastfeeding in front of a woman who can never have kids and can never have that experience? You want people to be considerate of you, but you must be considerate of other people as well.
Why should you deserve special consideration just because you have a baby and choose to breastfeed?
After my cousin had her first child, right before Christmas, she breastfed at our family get together. Frankly it was very awkard to carry a conversation with her because she was not very discreet about it (I assume that she wasn't only because she was around family...but still)
Like I said, I'm not against breastfeeding, but if YOU want to do that, then you MUST be discreet.
I have no intention of breastfeeding when I have a child. I was raised on formula and I am as healthy and intelligent as I should be and I have no issues do the same with my babies.

[Phillycat]

209. I would never breastfeed either, but I don't find it disgusting.

I just appreciate it when people are discreet. They have those ultra-thin blankets/towels that women use when breastfeeding in public, and I can't imagine it gets too hot or stuffy under there. And it's just a nod toward keeping everything civilized.

[buckettgirl]

214. Thats what I'm trying to say

I don't find it disgusting unless the mom isn't being discreet about it.
I guess the only analogy I can think of right now is seeing your parents having sex: its normal and natural, to them it is a beautiful thing, you know it happens, but it isn't something that you really ever want to see.

I am sure that is how many people feel about breastfeeding.
There isn't anything wrong with it if that is your choice, just be considerate of others.

[fleabert]

386. have you felt a baby's head while nursing before?

hotter than hell under those blankets sometimes. Once some of them get old enough, they won't keep it there. They yank it off without losing their grip!

[DebJ]

192. Go ahead and flame me, but, the problem is that MEN can't

control themselves, so they try to control the women. And women who are insecure and know mena can't control themselves, also try to control women. To hell with the babies needs, you know, it's all about a man not being able to keep it in his pants and view something as 'non-sexual'.

[buckettgirl]

201. A baby ....

doesn't "need" breast milk. And its not just about a man keeping his dick in his pants.
Have you ever thought that some people geniunely are disgusted by it?
Not everyone likes babies and not everyone gives a crap about new moms

[DebJ]

203. obviously you have never read about the difference between

the contents of breast milk and formula.

Anyone who is disgusted by breast feeding needs to get educated and get real....you've been brainwashed

[buckettgirl]

208. I'm not brainwashed

I am well aware of what is said about breastmilk and formula. I guess that means that I should be small, sickly, and mildly retarded, you can't believe everything you read either.
If you think I will be a bad mom because I will do what is easier for me and my lifestyle, then you have been brainwashed into thinking there is only one way.
Why does every person who sees a mom breastfeeding have to like it? Just because it is natural doesn't mean some people aren't repulsed. As I said, not everyone likes babies! I am not one of those people, but it is still true.

[Djinn]

217. no - just because I smoke doesn't mean

I'll neccesarily die of cancer either, my great uncle smoked a pack a day from the age of 13 and livede to the ripe old age of 97 when he died of heart failure - nothing to do with smoking - that hardly means smoking isn't bad for you or doesn't give you cancer.

No-one's saying there is only "one way" but that breast milk is better for human being than something made in a goat, a cow or a chemical lab, I don't think there is a single expert anywhere that would dispute that - except perhaps the PR flunky for Nestle - breastfeeding doesn't suit everyone but it is the best thing for your child.

[loudestchick]

226. angry much?

Whether you "like" to see a woman nurse her infant or not, whether same sex couples offend you or not, whether a tongue ring or flip flops in January make you uncomfortable or not...you don't get to choose for others!!!!

I nursed my first for 5 months...an illness cut my supply so I switched to formula...I faced some pressure to hide while I fed my daughter...I was a first time mom.

My second was a champion nurser...any time/anywhere till he was 11 mo...he wanted a cup...it almost broke my heart.

Number three? We nursed for 2 full years...I had so much milk, I donated to a milk bank at our local children's hospital.

The most grief I got was from my own mother and sister...bottles were good enough for them , why not me? I believe we need to educate and then appreciate women's choices.

[buckettgirl]

229. Now that is disgusting

I am addressing this generally, not personally only to you.
I truly do not understand what is wrong with you women here who breastfeed for 2 years or longer.
I think that if I see women breastfeeding BABIES in public, thats one thing, and as long as one is being discreet, it doesn't matter much.
But if I were to see a woman breastfeeding a child, who is capable of feeding themselves solid foods and drinking from tippy cups (not bottles), in public - I would be inclined to critize them to their face.
That is disgusting.
I suppose you're the type of people who refer to your child's age in months instead of years and also fear that all germs will kill them.

That aside, I do think it is great that you were able to donate milk (seriously) I had a friend who wanted to breastfeed very badly, but she produced bad milk and was forced to bottle feed. It is a good deed that you were able to provide for those who physically couldn't breastfeed or for children who didn't have mothers.

[loudestchick]

233. pay attention, please.

It isn't about you. Just like it isn't about my fundie neighbor who yells if I cut my grass on Sunday...you don't get to choose for someone else.

As for the nursing of children over the age of 2, I most likely wouldn't...but it was my CHOICE!

Are you getting it yet?

I won't force you to quit smoking, give up Krispy Cremes or the occasional suck face in a parking lot because I don't have that right moral or legal...please, keep your disapproval to yourself...don't women have enough to deal with without recrimination from other women?

[mondo joe]

234. Life in a free society meams sometimes being disgusted

So you're disgusted by breast feeding beyond a particular age, determined by you.

I'm disgusted by people's pants hanging off their underwear 2/3 of the way down their ass, by a lot of foods people eat, by obnoxious laughter, and a lot of other things.

In a free society you will have to learn to live with things you'd rather not do yourself. If not you open the door to people curbing your behavior as well.

[fleabert]

240. Please read further before getting any more upset

extended breastfeeding has already been addressed, and you might be in good company being surprised or disturbed by a toddler breastfeeding, it is physically and emotionally healthy for children to breastfeed into toddlerhood. We, in western society, are not socialized to this so our normal gut reaction is to be against it.

and I will AGAIN mention the western sexualization of the breast, and how that relates to the 'disgust' people feel when seeing a toddler nurse.

[buckettgirl]

272. that has nothing to do with my disgust.

Kids are smart and able to fend for themselves, believe it or not.
You can bond without breastfeeding. They will survive without breastmilk. When they are capable of feeding themselves, they should. Why would you want to encourage dependent, needy children? If you show them that you love them, they do not need to be reassured of that by your breast.
The only time I have ever heard of women breastfeeding for so long is when they live in extreme poverty and it is the only way the baby will eat.
One thing I can't stand (and I know that I am stereotyping, and I shouldn't, but i'm trying to make a point) are mothers who are insecure and overprotective. They think anything their child touches that hasn't been santized will kill them; they don't want to discipline their child appropriately and let them run wild/scream; they think that if they don't cater to their toddler's every wish, it will break their bond; they also think that if the child doesn't want to stop breastfeeding, they should let it continue as long as long as the child wants; they also think that EVERYONE loves their baby/toddler as much as they do (very not true); and they run to the doctor for every little sniffle.
To me (and I KNOW this doesn't apply to everyone here) you women who are so defensive about your baby and breastfeeding epitomize everything I have just stated.

I still don't understand why you don't understand that if you want people to be considerate of YOUR CHOICE to breastfeed your baby that you MUST be considerate of others in public - i.e. consideration is reciprocal, and nothing less should be expected.

[noiretextatique]

282. there is nothing "offensive" about feeding a child

in public or in private. people who sexualize feeding a child, or consider it something distasteful that should be hidden from public view are the ones who have the problem. what kind of person would think a woman feeding her baby is "inconsiderate?" :crazy:

[fleabert]

291. you said it much better than I did.

I am about to erupt.

[noiretextatique]

295. you have done a remarkable job in this thread

and i can understand why you are ready to erupt. :wtf: do we have a bunch of ashcroft clones here? who knew breast-feeding is considered the equivalent of urinating and defecating to some? it's mind-boggling, to say the least. i can honestly say i would not even notice a womam feeding her child in a restaurant...to me it's just a natural thing. i can't imagine WHY anyone would be "offended."
anyway...hang in there: your posts (and a few others) are by far the most intelligent in this thread :hi:

[fleabert]

297. I needed that.

Can I email you with a slew of curse words? J/K
I will be okay. I am cooling off now. I have enjoyed most of the discussion we have all had, I had a feeling it would get like this since I have been in it before. the pregnancy/birth forums have this war every few months. thousands of posts just like ours. fun fun fun! Much more heated there though, except you can't say the f word!

[noiretextatique]

300. feel free

to pm me, if you need to vent...and we can say the "f" word here :D

[buckettgirl]

319. people

who are assholes and don't get it would think that.
I'm not one of those people. I'm just trying to make a point that those people do exist, and it is sad, but they do none-the-less.

[noiretextatique]

330. i hear what you are saying

and frankly, my dear, i am sick of the assholes dictating terms for the rest of us. i think it time we tell them to shut the fuck up, and mind their own businesses, don't you?
i am glad to hear that you are not among them :hi:

[fleabert]

290. Trying to stay calm....

:argh:

I know you said you weren't trying to make anyone angry, but boy am I.

I will try and maintain.

I will not argue bottle vs. breast here. Go to pregnancy.about.com and get on that forum with this last post and just watch the flame war you will incite. You will get support too, this has been argued there for years.

Babies who nurse into toddlerhood DO eat by themselves. They do not breastfeed exclusively until 3 or 4. Read up a little on long-term bf before you talk about it please. You are absoultly wrong in your perception of why women around the world choose long-term bf. Please do a little research and be open-minded.

Most women I know, and in all the books I have read about breastfeeding see breastfeeding as a small form of EXPOSURE to germs. Just the opposite of your idea of how 'we' are. It is why breastfeeding offers such better antibodies compared to formula. They are live antibodies, anything mom is exposed to, baby is exposed to on a small scale. helps build immunitiy. In fact, every example you use to describe people like me describes the women I know who hate breastfeeding and refuse to hear anything about it.

I cannot stand to listen to a child cry, anywhere. I get pissed off when kids misbehave and the parents do nothing. I get more pissed when kids cry and the parents just shove a bottle in their face and tell them to be quiet. I don't think everyone's baby is beautiful or cute, but I do think they are to their parents.

How is shaming women into feeding a baby in the stall of a bathroom equal to being considerate? How about being considerate to the mother who needs to feed her hungry child? I think you need to get over this animosity you feel towards breastfeeding or take it to another board to flame it out.

[buckettgirl]

321. Truce

You and I actually think alot alike, believe it or not. I'm am sorry that the stereotype I made offended you (although we do agree those types of mothers do exist). I can only say, in my defense, that some of the posts came across to me in that manner - none from you though - and yes, I have misinterpreted them.

I think you did misunderstand one of my posts though. I'm not into arguing bottle vs. breast. That doesn't make any difference to me what you do, that is your choice. I'm not against breastfeeding, it is a good, natural thing. I'm not against bottle feeding, and that will likely be my choice when I have children. I'm not going to argue any of that here because I have nothing to argue.

Personally, I really don't care if women breastfeed in public. The only thing that would bother me is to see a mom be obviously non-discreet. I think that would bother most people.

I don't think that being told to breastfeed in a restroom or to take it somewhere else is being considerate. That IS wrong and it shouldn't happen - yes, people should be educated. I'm not against you here. The only point I was trying to make is that people who are repulsed by it do exist, people who may be emotionally hurt do exist, people who gawk exist (if I were you, i would be discreet for my own protection on that one).
We are taught at a very early age to basically be considerate of others. Most breastfeeding moms probably are, and so they do deserve the same respect, and be allowed to feed their child in public. However, those rare few who like to flaunt it don't deserve consideration - and even though they are few and far between, they probably still manage to give the rest of you a bad name. Thats not your fault and you shouldn't be condemned by it.
I don't think I can my myself more clear.
Please accept my truce, and I do not think you're a bad mom (honestly).

[fleabert]

326. Okay, truce.

I will take an olive branch just about every time one is extended.

Yes. We do apparently see things similarly. I appreciate your taking the time to more clearly state your position to me. I think that perhaps you have met or have seen the rare bird that takes her whole top off to breastfeed. Perhaps an exhibitionist? Certainly not the norm and not the mom mentioned in the original post (if she did in the rest. what she did in the news footage). In those cases, the arguement might best be to say that women should not be stripping in public places, not not breastfeeding in public. It is certainly outside of my experience to see women exposed more than a few seconds since the baby's activity inherently covers all of the nipple and some/most of the breast itself. The nurse-in that was done after the discrimination could be defined by you as 'flaunting it', in fact I think that is the point, but it was in response to an event, not a normal behavior by a group of breastfeeding advocates. Is that the part you are more bothered by?

BTW- I am a doula and a breastfeeding specialist, but not a mom yet. I have handled more than my fair share of lactating breasts and babies, but not my own yet! I am working on that, so hopefully soon I will get the chance to put my boobs where my mouth is! (i hope everyone gets that)

[buckettgirl]

342. I have a question for you

I was wondering if I could use you as a resource. You seem very knowledgable about pregnancy, babies and such, that I would like to be able to contact you for questions.
I'm 23, in college, married for just over a year, and I don't know my thoughts about babies yet - I don't really have anyone to discuss it with either (my friends who are parents, aren't the best parents/advice givers; and my mom just wants grandkids - darn moms anyway lol ;) )
I would appreciate that.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post, I am glad that we are finally seeing eye to eye. B-)

[fleabert]

385. feel free to email me anytime.

I am committed to helping women in any way that I can as a doula. Be careful what you wish for though, I may give you lots and lots of reading assignments! I always try to present both sides of an issue to questioning moms, even if I vehemently disagree with one side, (not in places like this, this is a place for my opinion).

My first advice: have some fun first! Play with your hubby before you get pg, it should make your marriage stronger for when the kids try to tear you apart at the seams! You are young! Play!

ps-talk to me too long and you might just end up breastfeeding! :evilgrin:

[fleabert]

301. OT: wait a minute.

are you saying here:

"Kids are smart and able to fend for themselves, believe it or not."

that children are responsible if they are abused by someone? Is that what you mean by 'fend for themselves'? I am not sure I can discern another interpretaton given the context of my message that you are replying to.

Please tell me I am reading this wrong.

[buckettgirl]

322. that is not what i meant

i'm sorry it came across that way.

probably a better way to put my thoughts is that they can learn without being completely protected from everything and in many aspects can be independent from mom without breaking the bond.

[fleabert]

327. okay. whew.

I am so glad I didn't interpret that correctly!

I think you might enjoy reading Dr. Sears books (he's known as a strong bf advocate, but he has a link on his site for bottlefeeding too) you might be surprised by all he has to say on independence and child rearing. The stonger the bond, the further children can safely explore independence! Not only do I agree that you don't have to break a bond to encourage independence, it is essential that it be strong and flexible. I highly encourage you to check him out.

www.askdrsears.com

[mondo joe]

312. Kids can survive without reading to them also. Shall we stop that?

Plenty of kids survive without ever having a book read to them.

Should those indulgent parents who insist on reading books to their kids stop because kids are smart and can fend for themselves?

[fleabert]

262. fyi- long term bf benefits well established - link

http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/bflength.html

[Djinn]

288. not an issue for me really

as I have no plans to have a kid anytime soon but...

"if I were to see a woman breastfeeding a child, who is capable of feeding themselves solid foods and drinking from tippy cups (not bottles), in public - I would be inclined to critize them to their face.
That is disgusting. "

the reaction you'd get from me would be a loud "mind your own fucking business" at best - on a crabby, havn't had any sleep day you may well get a smack in the mush for being so rude.

[yellowdogintexas]

323. Mine was 27 months when finally completely off breast

Now mind you, for the last year or so the nursing was at waking up,
nap time, bed time or sometimes when she was just having a really bad time of it (unless she was sick then she nursed more).


Things that impacted my decision to nurse past the "norm" of 6 to 7 months.
1. My daughter preferred it
2. It is so much easier than bottles
3. When she started teething, she also started throwing up(with each new tooth), and the only thing she could keep down was breast milk!!!!!
4. It calmed her down for sleep better than anything else
5. Hey, it relaxed me and if they could sell the hormone your body makes when the baby is nursing (I mean actually during the act of nursing) no other sleeping aids would ever be needed. Man that was the best sleep!!!!!
6. She NEVER HAD AN EAR INFECTION IN HER ENTIRE LIFE (she is 20)
7. Terrible twos? What terrible twos? My year of hell was age 3 (after she was weaned)
8. Loved that one on one mommy time, believe me it is just different.
9. Starting a new food was sometimes tricky, if she did not tolerate it, back to breast for a day or so to calm down her system.


I think we tried a bit of solid food at around 3 mo, but she did not really care for it..she decided on her own when she wanted to check out our food (the first thing she tried to steal was a bowl of hot and sour soup!!!LOL) So she did not get that, but things like crackers, rice, green peas, the usual cereals and fruites (not in this order the rice andpeas came later) she tasted everything we ate, ate what she needed to feel full and grew up to be a very healthy kid.
Seldom ill, very bright and very easygoing most of the time.

So now you know my story of the extended nursing. My sister breast fed hers for 14 months and 18 months, respectively. Not everyone wants or needs to do it that way and I did not start out planning it, it just happened. But I highly recommend it!

We were not breast fed..I remember making formula for my youngest sister...evap milk, some type of weird syrup, boiled and bottled.

[fleabert]

235. relax

Babies do need breastmilk. That is why formula companies spend billions of dollars trying to replicate it. Breastmilk ingredients and properties have not even been fully identified, so there is not a 100% replacement in existence.

Formula has come a long way, but it is not a perfect substitute. yes, most do just fine, but there are those that do not.

If you don't want to see a baby breastfeed, don't look.

I think you need to calm down. This is a very good thread that seems to be getting hijacked.

[loudestchick]

243. I disagree.

I don't think we've been hijacked...I think that there are people who need to be informed...You've provided some wonderful posts...I hope that people will be open, liberal and progressive enough to see that nursing mothers aren't second class citizens.:hi:

[fleabert]

246. thanks

I just see the thread turning into a bottle vs. breast discussion. I have seen it all too many times on the about.com boards. I too hope for the same things. I really don't understand the strong negative reaction to breastfeeding, it's food! so simple for me, but other's see it differently. I hope it doesn't disintigrate into rash name calling.

[buckettgirl]

275. thats not where i'm coming from...

i'm not into the bottle vs breastfeeding. I will choose to bottle feed my children when I have them. I was raised on formula and I turned out alright. I was born in 1981 and I'm sure that formula now is much better than it was then. That is my choice as breastfeeding is yours.

All who have replied to me have pretty much missed my point.
Be discreet. You expect other people to be discreet about certain things they do. It isn't too much to expect it of you. Breastfeed in public all you wish, but do it with courtesy to others.
You don't know who you may offend or deeply hurt.
If you want others to be considerate to your choice, then you must be considerate of others, that is not a one way street.

[fleabert]

281. this is not the place to debate bottle vs. breast

we obviously differ on that point.

But, in terms of being discreet, did you watch the video of the woman in question? She breastfed thru much of the interview and in my opinion was extremely discreet. At the age her child is at, he is well adept at getting latched on and there would be no to little exposure of the nipple so what is the big deal?

I personally don't see the big deal with seeing a nipple in the first place but have expressed over and over again on this thread that I understand that some do. and the reason I think so many have a problem with it is the current societal norm of the nipple being seen as solely sexual. It is equivalent IMO to see a nipple on a bottle and a nipple on a breast in the context of breastfeeding.

No one would ever think of chastising a woman giving a baby a bottle ever, but somehow the breast brings up this litany of complaints. If someone is distressed to see breastfeeding because of their inability to have a baby or breastfeed, that is hardly something that any mother could possibly be expected to change her behavior for. It is a case for therapy IMO.

I have had trouble conceiving, so I think I can speak about that. I don't hold other people responsible for my distress if I see a pregnant woman and get upset that I may not have children. Do you think then that people should hide their pregnancies from me? Should I expect to go somewhere and the establishment bar pregnant women since it might make me uncomfortable? Extreme example, I know, but I think it makes my point.

It is a question of freedom to choose a method of childrearing, and exercise that choice without condemnation or discrimination. If that choice put others or the child in harms way, I would not support it, but it is just the opposite. I would never ever chastise a mother for formula feeding, I would talk to them only if they wanted to discuss the topic, although I have to admit I would hope (for their and their baby's sake) that they had all the facts before making that choice. That said, I understand that even if someone had all the information I have, they might come to a different conclusion than I would. That is the definition of tolerance in my book.

As a progressive (to get back on topic) I feel this is fundamental to my commitment to the liberal political agenda. It surprises me that other self-professed liberals and progressives would be so supportive of restricting lifestyle choices.

No offense intended in any of my thoughts here. I truly wish we could understand each other, and am trying to do so without animosity.

[buckettgirl]

274. you make a good point

I am not saying that breastfeeding mothers are second class citizens. But I do think your views here are VERY one-sided, with no room for critical thinking.

[buckettgirl]

273. it seems to me

that the defensive breastfeeders here cannot take criticism for the sake of argument and critical thinking at all.
Why is it so difficult for you to be discreet when breastfeeding?
As I have said, i'm not against it, but if you want consideration, you must be considerate of others. Why is that so difficult to understand, really?
I told my husband about this thread, and he raised a really good point. He had a son die at 2 months old. How would you feel if you saw someone breastfeeding in public after something like that happened to you? I'm sure the hurt would be unbearable - especially being a mother with that opportunity taken away. But do you care, no, because its all about you being able to do what you want, wherever you want without consideration to others.

[mondo joe]

276. You'd have to work pretty hard to see anything during breastfeeding

I've seen women breastfeed. You'd have to work pretty hard to see anything very explicit. It mostly looks like they're just cuddling with the kid.

As to your husbands idea that someone who lost a baby might be upset at the sight of breastfeeding, why wouldn't those mourning parents be upset at the sight of a baby doing ANYTHING?

[buckettgirl]

277. they would be

my husband still shudders at the thought of having anther child because he is scared that it would die.
I am also trying to see that situation from the mothers side as well though.
I would think a mother in that situation would find it very difficult cope with because she has lost the chance of forming that bond in that way.
I am simply posing hypothetical situations and reasons for being discreet. Some people are repulsed (maybe it is because they don't understand or because they simply dislike children). Some people could be emotionally hurt by it. Heck, others may gawk -attempting to sneak a peek.
My whole point has been that being discreet = consideration to others.

[mondo joe]

279. But your hypothetical has nothing to do with breastfeeding

There's nothing about breastfeeding that would make the sight of a child more or less painfurl for a mourning parent.

And as to your point that some might be repulsed, I can only tell you I'm repulsed by the way plenty of people eat. Do I get the right to ban them from public dining?

[noiretextatique]

296. your argument is ridiculous

people who are repulsed or who otherwise have a problem have the option not to GAWK in the first place. perhaps they should be considerate enough to look elsewhere.

[Bridget Burke]

306. Are you really a "pagan" & a "nursing student"?

I didn't realize that pagans could be Puritans. As far as your nursing goes--what happens when you get out of the classroom. Actual (medical) nursing involves messy, physical stuff. Will you be able to cope?

Discretion is always desirable. However, I don't insist any behavior that offends my sensibilities be made illegal.

And your "concern" for your husband in this context is silly. He apparently needs to stay home all the time--there are babies out there! No TV. No magazines or newspapers.

[mondo joe]

308. Don't forget all the fundys whgo say "I used to be a satanist"

Don't forget all the fundys whgo say "I used to be a satanist" or duggie or lesbian or whatever.

Some people are just searching and anything they do is a step on the path to fundamentalism.

[Djinn]

289. so every child should

be kept indoors in case they encounter someone who lost a child? My grandmother died recently so I'd like to add anyone over the age of 70 should be considerate to my feelings and stay indoors :eyes:

Originally in this thread I stated that people can be discrete about it and while most are there are the odd breastfeeding militants types out there that seem to be looking for an argument - having read some of the stupid posts in this thread I've changed my mind...be as non discrete as you like ladies, for no other reason than to annoy these people!

[fleabert]

292. is it time for the milk spraying dance we heard about earlier?

:silly:

it would certainly lighten my mood!

[phylny]

346. Well, when I was nursing, it WAS known to piss my husband off by

sending a little squirt in his direction as he lay relaxing and I was dealing with a baby.

In a PLAYFUL way, I mean ;)

[Liberal Mommy]

293. I think I love you

haha Djinn, you just cracked me up. :) I hadn't thought of it that way, but seeing how both my parents are dead could everyone's parents please stay home from now on? ;)

[Pithlet]

335. I've already weaned

and will be having no more babies to breastfeed in public, so I'll just have to waggle my non-function breasts at them instead :D

[buckettgirl]

318. Y'all completely miss my point.

As my original post stated, breastfeeding in public must be discreet, if you can't be discreet then get a breastpump and a bottle.
It seems that you want to defend those who give you (who are discreet) a bad name and cause problems for other breastfeeding moms.

Clarify a few points:
1. Yes I am Pagan and a nursing student
2. I never said that I, personally was repulsed by breastfeeding
3. You haven't even argued the point I've been making
4. Breastfeeders must be courteous, just like everyone else in the general public.

Like I said before (boy is this sure getting repetitive :eyes: )consideration is a two way street. You want to breastfeed in public without being condemned for it, then you must show consideration of others or you will never get the type of treatment/respect you are seeking.
Consideration is a two-way street. So what if you think some of the points I've posted are silly, that doesn't make them any less possible or true.
If you don't want to be considerate, then you don't deserve what you are seeking. Period. Public breastfeeding will not be accepted as long as there are women who continue to 'flaunt' it, so to speak - and they may be a rare breed, but they do exist. You cannot tell me with 100% certainty that no women EVER breastfeeds for attention or to show off, or for whatever weird reason.
Instead of projecting your anger to those who condemn you, you should do actual, factual research and find out why. You should concentrate your effort on educating new breastfeeding moms on how to be discreet in public, and yes - you should educate the public.
However, this all or nothing attitude will never educate anyone. This isn't a black and white issue - nothing in this world is. There is a place that everyone must meet in the middle on, so that each side can be satisfied with the results.
Consideration and courtesy are supposed to be basic moral staples in a civilized society. Breastfeeding moms deserve consideration and courtesy for a completely natural act, but they must also show that same consideration and courtesy to the rest of general public as well.

[mondo joe]

320. Your point was to not do it if it offends anyone

And you made the ludicrous claim that it might cause pain to people who lost a baby. By your rationale children shouldn't be allowed to play in public because someone who lost a child might see them and suffer.

The fact is almost every time a woman breast-feeds it is by its very nature discreet. The baby's head covers the nipple. You have to TRY to see something graphic. And if you are TRYING to see it you have no right to complain.

[efhmc]

355. According to your argument, just having a baby in public would be as

hurtful as hell. I think anyone who has that type of trauma will be hurt seeing all babies no matter what they are doing. So sorry that happened to your husband. I cannot even begin to imagine his pain but a nursing baby or any baby still has the right to be here and to be in public and to be at his/hers mother's breast. (Again my heart goes out to your husband.)

[One_Life_To_Give]

218. Yes and No

From the post, can't tell if the restaurant is intolerant or if the mother lacks etiquette. Neither extreme should be condoned.

[mondo joe]

230. Nice "Culture of Life"

Those repub states go for the Bush "culture of life" - except when it comes to supporting that life.

[Carni]

236. If this is supposed to be a new Dem platform-count me OUT

There are far more important things to worry about than starting a movement to support free range breastfeeding IMO

[fleabert]

242. I don't know iff you meant for that to be funny, but

I got a mental picture of what 'free range' breastfeeding might look like! LOL

I think this is a Liberal issue because it is yet another pressure to conform how and what women do with their bodies. Others rights end where my body begins, and feeding a child should not even be questioned, IMO. this is a duplicate post of the history of Breastfeeding legislation, but I think it is important to know where we came from and see where we could be headed if we don't fight things like this.

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/NBNovDec94p164.html

[Carni]

258. Oh God --no, I am not on board with this being a "liberal issue"

Frankly I just don't care in general - sorry, I have no desire to read the stats etc on this non-issue.

[fleabert]

263. allright. I equate it with the right to choose. n/t

[Carni]

267. I don't and as far as I am concerned you are trivializing the choice issue

Should a woman change a diaper at the table in a restaurant?

Using your logic I guess they should because it's a "choice"

Give me a break it's common courtesy not to disturb other diners with something that might be offensive.

[fleabert]

268. settle down.

are you actually comparing eating to putting shit on a table?

Babies are EATING when they breastfeed. At a restaurant I think that is totally appropriate.

and, I don't think it is trivial that the west has sexualized women to the point where feeding a child is seen as somehow offensive. That's really what it's about imo.

[mondo joe]

269. This is a really stupid analogy

There's a VERY good reason to not change a diaper at the table that has nothing to do with offense, but a lot to do with health and food safety.

Look, infants and babies need to eat. Many are breast fed, which in fact is THE BEST food for them. It's simple.

If it troubles you all that much you might want to spend some time thinking about WHY you're so upset about it.

[Carni]

270. Like breast milk is sanitary for the public?

Maybe it's "best for baby" but it may not be what I want to clean up after if I am a person working at the restaurant.

[mondo joe]

271. There's nothing unsanitary about it. And the restaurant staff doesn't

There's nothing unsanitary about it. And the restaurant staff doesn't clean it up. As a rule there isn't any TO clean up. Jyst more proof you have no idea what you're talking about.

In fact most of the time there's not a thing to see when a woman IS breast feeding - not unles you're trying REALLY HARD to see something.

[fleabert]

294. why in the world would you have to clean it up?

I have never seen a mom get it anywhere besides babies mouth, cheeks and maybe her own clothing. and a few drops at that. :eyes:

[Pithlet]

338. You have no fundamental understanding

of how breastfeeding works. Breasts don't spray like fire hoses. That notion came about from porno fantasy. Honestly, where have you heard this stuff? Bottles of forumla are much messier and much more likely to leave a sticky smelly mess to clean up. In fact, breast milk has a mild fragrance and has the consistency of water and doesn't stain, while formula smells like fermented rice pudding and is sticky, and permanently stains clothing. Breasts are much neater than bottles, regardless of the substance, anyway.

Your arguments about mess and sanitation would make more sense if you were advocating no feeding of babies and children in public, period. And I really don't blame them if that isn't a bandwagon that liberals and Democrats want to jump on.

[Carni]

343. Babies "spit up"

Don't give me this crap about porno fantasies etc...

I clearly stated that if I am eating out I don't want to be bothered with someone breast feeding at the next table--not because I give a damn about nudity but because I don't think it's a sanitary thing in a restaurant.

If my squeamishness about someone else's bodily fluids on burping rags (or whatever they are called) being bandied around while I am eating, offends you... then OH WELL!

I know people with problem gas and incontinence that have a valid reason for doing what they do...but that doesn't mean I want to be seated next to them in a restaurant.

[Pithlet]

345. Yes

Babies spit up. That has nothing to do with breastfeeding. They will do that no matter how they are fed. It has more to do with the fact that their digestive systems haven't fully developed. So, you would agree then, that your problem is not with breastfeeding, but with people who take their babies out into public? Go ahead, be squeamish about it. Just don't expect me to care, or to think that public policy should be based on that. If my daring to show my face in public with my children and doing something as basic as feeding them offends others, then well, I can honestly say, OH WELL!

[seafey]

360. Not as much as bottle-fed babies do.

Your argument is completely baseless. You sound like you completely hate babies or something, which is really a personal problem, not a political stand. Get help.

[fleabert]

387. it's food. it's not going to get on you.

I am sure that hundreds of women have breastfed near you without you even noticing or getting cooties.

[fleabert]

388. considerably less than formula fed, it's much easier for them to digest

n/t

[musette_sf]

333. Can't see how BF an infant is "offensive"!

First let me say that (1) breast feeding kind of freaks me out -- I know, I know, but it *does*; (2) I was bottle fed because my mom wasn't wild about it either; and (3) if I had ever had any kids, it would have been really difficult for me to decide to BF.

That being said, I agree with the posters that say that if you see ANYTHING while BF is going on, you are really looking too closely. Gotta love Texas -- where the pharmacists won't give you BC pills, but breast feeding is "offensive".

But does anyone agree that it's all okay and should be accepted by all, as long as those dining at the Booby Rock Cafe are infants? I have to say that if they are wearing hard shoes and can walk up and ask for it, then it's time for the sippie cup.

[efhmc]

367. When my sister was pg and in Germany in the early 60's, she was not

suppose to go off the base in pg attire as it would be offensive to the Germans who were not used to seeing pg women on the streets. (Does this give anyone the idea that this might be a RIGHTWING hangup?) She really freaked them out when she went swimming in her pg swim suit. What a crock. Life is life. GET the heck over it.

[fleabert]

389. Kids that age who bf do use sippy cups

Long term breastfeeding is not exclusive breastfeeding, solids and other fluids get introduced usually around six months and breastmilk is just in addition to the regular food. some wait longer to intro solids, some sooner (although most dr's don't rec. any sooner than six months).

Please visit www.askdrsears.com if you would like to know the facts about breastfeeding a toddler.

[musette_sf]

407. I know ppl *do* BF toddlers..

in fact, we have some friends who are into the "BF till they're 3, and everyone sleeps in the family bed" thing. But I just don't think that's right, at least not for me. Each to his or her own, but I still say if they can walk up in their little shoes and ask for it, that's a little late for BF. Ya know, they have a pretty good set of teeth by then, too! Their nutrition is not at risk by that point since they can eat pretty much anything by the toddler stage. Of course I am referring to our own relatively prosperous culture, and I am sure I would feel differently for those in crisis/war/extreme poverty situations.

[fleabert]

414. While I support whatever you decide is best for your family,

please take some time to check out the benefits of long term BF, there are benefits for children to nurse after they are able to walk, after they get teeth, start talking, really any general age-ambiguous milestone. While it might not change your mind about what you choose for your family, it might give you a different perspective and understanding of why other families choose to do so.

http://www.breastfeedingbasics.com/html/Benefits.shtml
(scroll past the cow picture)

http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/priscilla_colletto.html
(this site has many more long term bf articles)

These are just two of the many I found on google. Understanding why some women choose to bf into toddlerhood will only help to quell the type of discrimination the original post spotlighted. (I am not saying you discriminated, just bringing this back on topic)

[Telly Savalas]

413. Then don't stare at the breastfeeding mother...

they're typically pretty discreet about it.

[Logansquare]

244. It figures--in the state that invented lap dancing

[efhmc]

353. I did not know we invented lap dancing. Yet another thing to be proud of

as Texans.

[noiretextatique]

253. breasts in playboy: good; breasts in malls: bad

breasts in playboy provide "male entertainment" :freak: breasts in malls provided nourishment to babies. viagra to produce more babies: good. contraception and/or abortion to deal with the consequences of viagra: bad.
typical...

[fleabert]

298. Our bodies are bad and must be controlled!

[FizzFuzz]

315. viagra to produce more babies...I disagree!

Hey noiretblu :hi:

here's a slight modification of your good/bad analysis -- Viagra was made so that men can enjoy more sex (have more opportunities to stick their dick in anything that moves<--sorry that was crabby and cynical of me).

Contraception/abortion for women so they can enjoy sex/not be enslaved to biological consequences/make decisions about their own bodies--bad

whats the overall message? Men, enjoy yourselves its your inalienable right. Women: show us tit in a sleazy bar!!! or spend the rest of your life (after having provided us with our thrill) hiding in the house or public bathrooms with your kids.

[noiretextatique]

332. actually...i like your version better too

:hi: but...you know, the end result of men enjoying more sex just might be pregnancy. as to the rest...LMAO, you're killing me, woman :hi: remind me not the read anymore of your posts at work :D
(and remind me to tell you a show us your tits story tomorrow)

[FizzFuzz]

404. LOL! So I made you shplarff coffee on your computer screen at work??

bwa.

BwaHA.

BWAAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now, tell me that "show your tits" story.

[efhmc]

362. Wow, are you on the right track . You must be a gal.

If I am wrong, and I do not think I am, then you are one righteous man.

[FizzFuzz]

405. Thanks. Yep, I am a lady-type person.

Only there's nothing LADYLIKE about me!! I'll never shut up and make nice.!!!!!!!

:evilgrin:

[efhmc]

418. Make waves, not nice and change will happen.

[shanti]

393. ding ding ding!

youuuuuuu've got it!

[efhmc]

394. Now that we know it and we got what can we do with it?

[KenCarson]

256. was there an option of seating arrangements?

i mean, there is smoking and nonsmoking. was there outdoor seating and indoor, a private wing? if your crotch itches, it's natural to scratch it, but if a restaurant can insist that some patrons wear a dinner jacket, they can ask you to leave for scratching yourself to the offense of others and that,i think, makes breastfeeding a no brainer. it would be more civil to offer options to the mother that work for everyone. but there's no link, so we don't know if the initial incident was meant handled confrontationally, setting the tone. i'd like to see more detail.

[fleabert]

265. Another poster found this last night,

http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/110904kvue2Breastfeed-eh.3e378599.html

you have to register to see the video, but it's good.

[jhain]

317. Breastfeeding is NOT a life style choice

Women do not chose breastfeed with the hopes that they will have a confrontation with some pervert every time they go out to lunch.

Women breastfeed because their babies'lives depend upon it.

Will every child have a life threatening allergy to artificial baby milk? Nope. But, nobody can tell you that yours won't.
Will every child grow to have heart disease and/or cancer? Nope. But, we have epidemics of both due to screwing our immune systems with 'formula'.

The next time you see a woman breastfeeding in a restaurant- pick up the check for her.-Because she is saving this country untold dollars in healthcare costs.

[GreenPartyVoter]

324. *high five*

-----------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com /

[ballcap1776]

337. I whipped it out whenever my little one needed it.

I covered up a bit, but if it panicked my kid and I happened to be in a public place...my kid comes before someone else's comfort zone. Which is as it should be. I, myself, don't really like to watch a women breastfeeding now (stimulates my let-down reflex, TMI, I know) but you know what? I just don't look. And amazingly enough...it doesn't bother me anymore.

What an amazing, amazing way to handle it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

340. I don't mind seeing it. Makes me happy. I get the let-down from hearing

the baby whether I see it or not, anyway. Usually in that case, I go hug my little guys who are too old fot bottles and beebies now but still small enough to cuddle (almost 5 and almost 7)

-----------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[efhmc]

397. Sounds like you found what works and that is the key to it all.

[fleabert]

336. You roll and...

:yourock:

[seafey]

358. Discretion is something...

you practice when you're doing something kinda wrong- like having an affair, or slipping something into someone's drink, or something, let's see- SHAMEFUL.

I'm tired of people who think breastfeeding is something that also requires DISCRETION! Breastfeeding is beautiful. It's more than just "natural", it's powerful, and it makes men crazy because they can't stand to see women's power shown so publicly. They should be thankful and women should be PROUD to breastfeed in public. Just my opinion.

[efhmc]

359. What a great point. Also such a good use and understanding of language.

Thanks for pointing out those differences.

[seafey]

364. thank you- really. nt

[TexasSissy]

361. I don't like the breast feeding thing, either. Should be taken to the

bathroom. The only reason they don't is....well, I'll let you guess on that one. It's pretty obvious.

[efhmc]

365. Are we really supposed to know what the hay you are talking about?

Speak English sir/madam so the rest of us common folks can interpret.

[kitkatrose]

378. Do you eat in the bathroom?

Then why should a baby, who is more sensitive to infections, have to?

[efhmc]

382. I avoid public restrooms for their intended use unless absolutely

necessary.

[fleabert]

390. because that is disgusting?

I don't like to see women who are 5'7" eat hamburgers, it offends me. I will tell each one I see to take their food into the room we use to dispose of bodily waste and eat it there, in a stall preferably so they can shut the door if I need to go pee.

[efhmc]

392. So a 5'2" gal like me is safe. Yes, I knew being short would pay off some

day.

[mondo joe]

401. Um, feeding children in the bathroom is disgusting.

Breast feeding at the table is not.

[TexasSissy]

409. I don't think so. You're not talking sit-down affair with a tux &

wine. You hold the baby, same as you would outside. You sit down, same as you would outside. You partially undress, same as you would outside. You give it your breast for feeding, same as you would outside. It's not the same thing as eating with utensils and jars of food, plates, plus a glass with beverage, etc.

Most restaurant restrooms are not used much, anyway.

This is one of the inconveniences of having infants who are breast feeding. I should not have to look at some strange woman's breast while I try to eat. I didn't have the baby. She did. It's her inconvenience, not mine. She doesn't have a right to take her crying baby to a movie theater, either, just because it's "natural" for infants to cry. Other people's rights come into play.

It's no big deal to take the bare breasted feeding into the bathroom. No matter what the purpose, she is still exposing her breast.

Then, of course, there is always bottle feeding, which solves the problem at the outset. She can also use that gadget to gather breast milk ahead of time, and bottle feed that way. Exposing her breast in public is not the ONLY choice a new mother has.

[mondo joe]

410. Sorry - bathrooms are not a sanitary place.

Bathrooms are decidedly unsanitary.

Not a good place for feeding an infant or anyone else. Even cats and dogs know not to shit where they eat.

Yes, moths could do all sorts of wrangling so s not to breast feed. But there's no reason to do so, other than that a few people can't control themselves enough to just stop staring.

The fact is you don't have to look at anyone's breast whileyou'er eating. I've had several friends who have breast fed and I never once had to look at any of their breasts, even in their own home. As I've said previously you'd have to TRY REAL HARD to get a peek at anything graphic.

I wonder what you'd think of someone saying "I don't want to have to see two men hold hands while I eat. I didn't decide to be gay. It's their problem."

[efhmc]

428. Your comfort level with what happens around you in public concerning

children is yours to deal with. In a free society your ideas are not the answer or the rule for all others to follow. You do not have the say on what others can do, whether it makes you comfortable or not. This includes women breatfeeding with all their boobie exposed or any other activity that is legal but may not be to your liking.

[Ms. Toad]

403. Let me think, Oh yeah - it is because bathrooms are designed for

food after it has been processed through the body.

I am glad I didn't happen on this thread yesterday - I might not have gotten much sleep since sentiments like the one expressed here drive me nuts and I would have felt compelled to respond to a lot more individual posts.

Thanks to all of the well informed caring individuals who have spent their time providing solid information.

It shouldn't be such a struggle to provide the best nourishment available for your baby, but it is. I had to fend off my mother (who tried unsuccessfully to breastfeed me and was sure my baby needed supplemental water and a pacifier), my mother-in-law who was sure my baby would starve because my daughter was the only grand-baby whose bottle couldn't be stuffed with instant cereal at a month or so (can't stuff my breasts with oatmeal - and it's not good to introduce other foods until 6 months anyway), the teaching nurse (who insisted that I would destroy my nipples because my baby nursed for 40 minutes on a side in a position the nurse considered awkward), the hospital that insisted on waking my baby during the night and providing supplemental food because my baby wasn't learning how to latch on fast enough (in their opinion), and virtually all of my relatives when she was still nursing well past a year.

Fortunately, if my baby eating in public bothered anyone they had the good sense not to aggravate me about it. If there was a quiet, sanitary place I could get to easily to nurse I took advantage of it. If not, my baby was fed when and where she needed food - just as all of the babies whose food came in a bottle were fed when and where they needed it. (And, for those who suggested expressing milk and using bottles in public - despite the best efforts of several well meaning relatives mentioned above, my baby refused all such fake delivery systems.)

As for the previously mentioned concerns about nursing toddlers, creating dependency, and setting limits - my baby nursed exclusively for 9 months, then with supplemental food for another 9 months, and then quit on her own. She is and always has been one of the most independent children I know. No tears ever when I left her with a sitter, sent her off to camp, or to a country half way around the world. She was far more likely to break out in tears when I picked her up. Even with her independence, she is confident enough in her relationship with me, as a teenager, that she is still physically affectionate when the mood strikes her - regardless of whether her peers are watching or not. She consistently receives comments such as, "nice to have in class," "good participation," etc. on her straight A report card. I don't see any indication that nursing into toddlerhood caused her any problems with either dependency or limits.

In fact, I credit a lot of her solid emotional health to having her emotional needs completely met during the first few years of childhood (including nursing on demand, not being forced to cry herself to sleep just so she could learn to sleep alone, and having the luxury of a stay at home mom). Her expectation was that if she had a need, it would be fulfilled, which provided her with a strong sense of security from which she was able to engage the world and to begin to distinguish between wants and needs and, in due time, to learn that life also has limits and boundaries.

[LiberalAmerican]

366. I'm trying to understand the disgust...

Does it bother some to have their objectified image of a womans' breasts humanized by seeing them used to provide sustanance to an infant? I guess it's harder to trivialize a woman's role in society when she's nurturing a baby. Get back into the kitchen, life giver!
/sarcasm off

[Liberal Mommy]

368. Warning graphic pic!!!

What is disgusting about this?

[efhmc]

373. Wow! Eek! Shade your eyes. I'd rather see bush. Yeah, right.

What a sweet, beautiful picture. People are absolutely NUTS!!! This is a life affirming, natural, wonderful event. Let them look at pictures of people being slain in Iraq and then tell that this picture of a baby feeding is indiscreet.

[fleabert]

391. absolutely nothing!

gorgeous!

[efhmc]

370. Yes, many do not want to see the breast as the true nurturing agent it is.

They want it to be their PS Anderson's blown-up, unnatural basketball plaything. And if it is not, then IT is NASTY!!

[jhain]

399. bottle feeding

even IF a woman

1. could afford a reliable pump that did not harm breast tissue and actually removed milk.

2. And she could find a safe way to keep it at the correct temperature
and

3.some great scientist came up with a method to preserve the antibacterial, immune enchancing properties of the milk OUTSIDE the breast.

There is still good reason NOT to bottle feed breastmilk:

(know anybody who has stroked out due to sleep apnea?)

http://www.brianpalmerdds.com/bfing_import.htm

[efhmc]

424. So true.

[mondo joe]

411. Many here remind me of those who don't want to see 2 men hold hands

There are a lot of people here who think breast feeding should be hidden, or is somehow shameful or discourteous.

I'm reminded very much of those who insist they shouldn't have to see two men hold hands in public, or hug, or (heaven forbid) kiss.

[efhmc]

425. Shame is the eyes of the beholder.

[Cheswick2.0]

431. oh come on............ that's bullshit

one thing has nothing to do with the other. I have no problem seeing either thing. I don't know why a little discretion in public is too much to ask.

[mondo joe]

432. They're both arbitrarily deemed "offensive"

There's no real difference. Some people decide it's offensive to them so it should be hidden away.

[ohio_liberal]

412. Seriously....

Doesn't a mother, especially a new mother, have enough stress and difficulty without the feeling of being a social outcast for breastfeeding her baby? Who really wants to go hide in a bathroom or another room just because it's time for baby to eat? Our society is so phucked up. No wonder so many women have difficulty breastfeeding. We as a society have made it unnatural.

I nursed 4 babies for more than a year each and I absolutely refused to hide so that someone wouldn't have their sensibilities offended. I gladly whipped out a boobie anywhere and anytime and I dared someone to say something about it.

[efhmc]

423. Welcome here and thanks for the wise words.

[bloom]

420. Too bad this is even a controversy here

you would think people were being forced to watch under pain of torture or something.


:eyes:

[efhmc]

422. I never expected anyone on DU not to be on board for this woman's right

to breastfeed in public. Wow, was I ever wrong.