Left Coasters, lookee what I found regarding secession.

[Cleita]

http://civilwar.bluegrass.net/secessioncrisis/890304.html

Particularly interesting is the quote by Henry Cabot Lodge:

"It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw."

It seems it would be legitimate to withdraw from the union, if the Constitution of the United States is no longer being upheld by those sworn to protect. Also, it would seem legitimate as our government has us engaged in a war no one on the left coast wanted.

[Dookus]

1. this issue was settled

in 1865. It made all the papers.

[Cleita]

3. Yes, but did you read the part where none of the defeated

southern secessionists were tried for treason.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. They were given mass pardons as long as they swore allegiance

to the union, they were allowed to take their horses and thier weapon.

Many COnfederate Officers could not go on after defeat and joined the Union forces as Privates, as they would never again be trusted to be officers, not even NCOs...

THe reason why they were given these massive pardons was... Lincoln knew that trying them for trason would only deepen the wounds, read his speech "Wiht malice towards none."

His policieds were not enacted because he was murdered, and his successor was less than adept, by 1870, at must '75 the old south had gone back to many of its old ways, and the Klan had risen out of hte ashesl to keep blacks down an exercise that still contninues outside of urban areas even today

Again read a tad into US History, and truly what settled the question of secession and made it tantamount to treason was not the civil war, ironically, but Texas vs US... Texas tried to leave the Union peasably but the USSC found that once you are part of the asylum you cannot leave

That decision does not include expulsion. I hear some freepers would love to expell us since we are not part of their vision of the country, and I say, bring it on.

[Dookus]

6. Yes

there was a general amnesty and pardon in 1868.

I think the conclusion that this was done in order to avoid addressing the constitutionality of secession is probably unfounded. It's a typical right-wing confederate-loving talking point. It's just as likely it was a way to begin reconstruction and put the war behind the nation. The south was defeated - ongoing trials for treason would just be picking at the wound.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. If It Led To War. . .

. . .as it did in the 1860's, it would not be isolated to a stray battlefield here and there. Geez, even at Gettysburg, they did almost all the fighting just outside of town.

With today's weaponry and the new take on how we wage war (strategic bombing, perforation of all strategic services, etc.) the carnage would be unimaginable. It would make the civil war look like a bingo parlor.

Put this idea where it belongs. In the circular file!
The Professor

[KnowerOfLogic]

34. There are no such thing as "settled issues."

Lincoln decided to fight the civil war; another president might have not have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Find Texas vs US... 1870 USSC decision

this is what made this experiment kind of hard to pull out


Now if the freepers expell us thouhg... I don't think any of us will cry much, now will we?

[Nordic]

5. how can we make them expel us???

I want that!

Too bad we can't shut down the port of Los Angeles until they expel us.

That would be GREAT.

I want out of this country, but I like living in California.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. The long thread was here

but basically the moran said that they could make this by voting in Congress and having a constitutional ammendment

Koss found it, somebody cross posted it to HERE and boy we were all going BRING IT ON.. I am tired of maintaining the red staters who don't have any respect for me or for the LIBERAL and PROGRESSIVE values that led to the foundation of this country

I say, we write to our critters when they prosose the amendment and tell them, boys and girls I want you to eithr abstain or vote for it. Yes we want you to either abstain or vote for it...

Truth be told if we did not resist Freepers may finally understand why we are not resisiting... shhhh don't tell anybody, but those welfare sucking red states would burn due to lack of blue money.

[chicagiana]

28. WHY would they expel a blue state????

If the expelled a blue state, that would make them independent and capable of writing their OWN laws regarding marijauna, military, etc... Check the Blue/Red welfare map. Most of the red states are sucking resources off of the Blue states!!!

The Blue states are the one's who largely fund the treasury. Why on earth would you want to expel your gravy train????

Beyond this, Republicans are an imperious lot. They're NOT live and let live. They want you under their thumb and under their rule!!!! You can't accomplish this by expulsion!!!

[newyawker99]

33. Hi chicagiana!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[LiberalFighter]

31. Why would we cry? I sure wouldn't especially since most of the money...

would now stay with us. I would then move back to Wisconsin as soon as I retire.

Of course, we would not do business with any of the red states. And strongly encourage other companies not to do business there either.

We would be able to throw the red states out of the White House and Congress because it is in the blue area. They probably build their own WH in Crawford anyhow.

[Trumanway]

8. Well, yeah, we probably could secede,

but if you look at the South's Secession, you will note that the war did not start until the Southerners tried to throw the Federal Government out of the South.

If we did secede, the Feds would just stay, collect taxes and cut off all Federal support and reimbursement. "Well you are no longer US citizens", they would say.

Then we would have a choice: pay to get screwed royally and never have the vote again, or take up arms against the Feds (the crime of insurrection and treason, count me out here), and force them out.

Think of the glee in Washington if the idiots out here tried the second option. (Think Waco, what happened when loyalists didn't start it with the Feds?) No, my friend they would quickly eliminate the "treasonous insurrectionists", and liberals on the left coast would be history.

Brilliant ideas like this are why the stupid party has succeses.

[Cleita]

9. Seems to me we wouldn't be bound to pay federal taxes,

if we no longer recognize them as our sovereign nation. If they want to stay let them, but we have no obligation anymore to honor their rules or pay their expenses. I mean how are they going to collect taxes if the courts and other agencies ignore them and don't back them up? In order to do that, they would have to send in troops and this morning's paper told me that our troops aren't here. I also, think that a lot of the military would stay with us, not to mention the draft age kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. the only way this could work, and it won't for multiple reasons

is if WE ALL stopped paying ALL TAXES immediately

Now here are some consequences to this

1.- SHut down of state government, how long can you go without collectgion of tras, police or fire services?

2.- National Guard Troops, we still ahve some, would be deployed, iwthi orders to shoot

3.- Arrest of leaders and show trials,

4.- State of Ememrgency

No you need to think of craetive ways for THEM to expell us (the idea is already floating) and to slow the machines

Here is food for thought, 70% of US GNP is what we consume, and most of that is Christmas related... now here is a far more effective way of doing somenting, boycott christmas, don't participate in the further comercialization of the holiday.

If enough of us do this repeteadly, it will slow the machine down. Oh and did I mention this is legal, very legal?

I do not need to face the USSC decision of Texas vs US, and truth be told it worked for Ghandhi, it will take time.

[Cleita]

11. They will never, ever expel us because we generate the

most tax income for this country, and we control access to the Pacific and Asia. Even if everyone was gay and we ran around naked all day, they would hold their noses and keep us. We are gonna have to do this the hard way.

[Dem2theMax]

23. Hey, it would be ugly, the 'running around naked part',

but I'm willing. I can be gay. Well, bi, but I won't tell * that.
What else would it take? I'm willing to try just about anything. ;)

[xchrom]

25. really?

[Dem2theMax]

27. Yeah. But I warned you. It would be ugly.

;)

I love rainbows. I'm also female. And straight. But I mean it. I'd be bi in a heartbeat if it would help. :) Anything for the cause of freedom.
And doing something new and different wouldn't hurt either. :)

I just love being liberal. :bounce:

[Trumanway]

12. Think how your Federal taxes are collected now,

they would just continue to collect them by witholding. your boss or bank would have to be willing to go jail for not handing them your money, I think they would give up your bread to stay out.

Also, remember, all Federal property would remain Federal, all Federal cops, and armed bureaucrats would remain so. The military and bases would be all Federal on penalty of mutiny. West coast military would follow orders and use force on anyone that prevented a Federal officer from discharging his duty.

It is a common misconception worldwide that the "peoples army" will never fire on "the people".

No, this is a stupid idea that can do a lot of damage. As for those that wish and hope for "expulsion", remember, if they can engineer an expulsion, they can engineer to just expel the people and keep the real estate, thats what many of the American Indian "foreign nationals" got.

Last question, do you think that a state or local cop would use force against a Federal officer knowing the US military will be coming around to discuss it with him?

[Cleita]

13. No withholding please.

As a matter-of-fact, the new nation should be very firm about the fact that all withholding will go to the new nation and not to Washington. If they keep the federal property, they will have to maintain them without our tax money. My bet is that they would be selling a lot of it off to raise revenue. Personally, I would be in a bad way getting cut off SS, but we can't let them turn our nation into the next Taliban-like theocracy.

Also, since the only nation in the world is the USA that approves of the Fourth Reich, a rebellion within the nation would inspire other nations perhaps to send some troops in to help us. Isn't this what we have been doing, in Korea, in Vietnam in Kosovo et al? I would bet that we might have some help. I really don't want to split up the country, but we can't leave things as they are. It has to start somewhere.

[Trumanway]

14. Preventing the Federal Government from collecting taxes....

from a seceded left coast would hinge on your "please" as there is no other peaceful means to do so.

After they finished laughing, they would say "Aaahh,.....no." Remember, others collect your taxes and pay them to the Federal Government on threat of imprisonment and property confiscation. They will happily pay your money to be left alone. However the Feds DO pay your SS directly and you can be sure your check will stop, remember, you seceded.

They won't be needing to sell any property (as an aside, Federal ownership of land has increased substantially for a couple of decades).

A revolution (and that is an ugly thought) within the US would garner NO, repeat NO military support from any foreign nation. Why? First because almost every foreign nation is on the Federal payroll (foreign aid) and they don't want off the gravy train, second, they would have to answer to our military, not a happy thought. You will be alone if you expect foreign military help. Remember, the military and the National Guard will always side with the Federal government, it's their job.

This brings us to your desire to keep our nation whole, not divide over these much less important issues. What a great idea! I'm there! Let's look for ways to work together with logic and reason, without emotional hissy fits conceiving policy.

[Cleita]

15. Well, when the storm troopers start marching in the streets

and it looks like that may not be far away considering another thread about a purge about to happen in the CIA of agents not "loyal" to Bush, you might change your mind. Incidentally, no one objected to the first Revolution on US soil. I also think our close neighbors here on this hemisphere are getting very uncomfortable with our presence, so don't be so sure about them not intervening.

[Trumanway]

16. I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean about storm troopers......

marching in the streets. Literally? Regardless of what happens to CIA, not a chance. Figuratively? Well they don't have to march to assess where the Federal government has a lock on daily activities.

Tax collection and policy, authoritarian for decades, disbursement the same, police powers same, FBI control of local cops, substantial, but the most important, the US Military: complete and total control.

The CIA could be sent to the moon and there would be no need for "storm troopers" to deploy to the streets anywhere in the US, THERE IS NO NEED, the Feds have a lock on everything they need to keep things humming on just as before. Progressive demonstrators will just be ignored by the Feds, local cops will have to deal with 'em.

And again, no foreign nation will intervene, Canada? the eleven of 'em on active duty will go home with their hockey sticks... you know where. Mexico? Their army will only come here to deliver cocaine and pot, get real. China? How will they get here? Swim? The UN? can you think of a faster way to get the US to quit the UN and boot 'em? No, there will be no outside help.

The nations that helped our Revolution had an Axe to grind with England and wanted access to America for colonization and raw materials, and were not on England's payroll, they did no favors for us, it was for money. Don't fool yourself, they will avoid a revolution in America like the plague.

It's better to try to win the hearts and minds of the red staters than call them stupid and try to bail. Why don't we try that first.

[Cleita]

17. Well, you called me stupid, but I'm not a red stater am I.

There is no way to win their hearts and minds. We tried the last four years and we didn't win. Yet, we are stuck with their agenda being rammed down our throats. I want to know that my government is not a rogue nation invading countries that did nothing to us, torturing prisoners of war and killing children. If my nation can't correct that atrocious mistake by electing out the criminals in charge who have done this, then we have no choice but to rebel.

[Trumanway]

18. Pardon me if I was misunderstood....

but I did not call you stupid, nor did I intend to suggest such. I said that secession was a "stupid idea", not that the person discussing the idea was stupid. I stipulate that you are quite bright, and tenacious by reading your posts. I also suspect that you are driven to seek perfection in government and it's operations. It's noble, but you will be disappointed.

Humans always fight among themselves, I have always hoped that we could reduce the amount here at home and then abroad, but it will never go away, we have to live with it.

Rebelling will only de-legitimize liberals and give more credibility to the far right. They will happily apply the labels of "traitor, insurrectionist, and collaborator" and smugly say "we told you so". Don't help them by acting in anger, and don't give up on the red staters either, most are not acting out of hate, just out of concern for their families. True, we tried for 4 years, let's try another 4 years and this time let's be nice and tone down the rhetoric. I believe we'll get results.

[Cleita]

21. No perfection. I just want the Busheviks to honor the

Constitution like they have sworn to and treaties that we have signed like the Geneva Convention. It's not to much to ask and if they can't then they are a rogue government and shouldn't be allowed to be in power, but they are. So we must look for other options.

[Trumanway]

22. It would be great if the Bush Whitehouse would honor the Constitution...

however it will take time to show if they are not. They have already lost the first court case on detention of prisoners without counsel or speedy trial at Guantanamo, but it will have to go to the Supreme Court. If they lose there they'll just give these guys lawyers, and start over. Government prosecutors can interpret the Constitution in their favor until the Supremes say otherwise. Also, treaties are extra Constitutional and are interpreted by State and the Executive, there are much fewer checks and balances here, much harder to get proof of wrongdoing.

It looks like our other option is to get more people to vote Democratic.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalFighter]

32. Just throw them out of the WH and Congress because...

it is in blue territory.

[KnowerOfLogic]

35. Liberal Northerners won before; they would win again.

[mikewiszkowski]

36. Liberal Northwesterners

Do they have as many guns as the Southerners now?!?!?!

[KnowerOfLogic]

40. I'm sure there would have to be some organization of a new

military, both among the union and the confederacy, as there would be many defections among the present Bush-led confederate military. It's true that we have been preparing more for peace, while they have been preparing for war, but i have no doubt that sufficient resistance could be mustered should they force the issue to war. Now would probably be the best time to secede, given that half the army is in Iraq and the federal government is deep in debt. Also, i suspect that most industrialized countries would support us over the confederates.

[mikewiszkowski]

43. Some sort of Organization

Why do you expect the military to do all the work? I am referring to citizens who own weapons. If you want seccesion plan on doing some of the heavy lifting yourself. And I believe most of the military would go Red. What do you based industrailized countries favoring the Blue States. Most US hegemony is created by those States(Hollywood, Wall Street.) I don't think conservative Muslims care too much for Hollywood.

[moindependent]

48. Military organization

Where are you nitwits going to get guns for your new military? Are you speaking of abandoing your left-wing principles, just this once, because it fits your agenda? You'll have to arm the citizens to fight this one...give the common man the right to arm himself and defend his home. Oh, I know...we'll just take all the guns away after we overthrow the government. I'm sure everyone will gladly give them up.

[DerBeppo]

19. not possible

when a fraction of a fraction of a fraction are the only ones detached from reality enough to even suggest civil war.

let's focus on the attainable and constructive remedy of getting the senate in control or at least back to 49/50/1.

[Cleita]

20. You are right.

I thought I would throw this out though because there has been talk about this since I came to DU. Up until now we all knew it would be a real longshot and mostly wishful thinking. I think though that it is interesting that the framers of the Constitution felt it would be democratic if states who changed their mind could and secede peacefully without war or penalty. How, have we gotten so far away from their principles?

It still seems bad to me that you have to be forced to be part of a nation who doesn't have the same democratic and humanitarian principles that you have. I mean how many people have tried to have their own homeland and yet were forced to be part of another? I think it says a lot about how undemocratic national sovereignity really is.

[KnowerOfLogic]

37. Who said Civil War? Secesssion does not imply Civil War.

So what if only a minority are suggesting it; every idea has to start somewhere. Frankly, i'm really sick and f-ing tired of 49/50/1; for how many more centuries are we going to let the backward half of america drag us down?

[DerBeppo]

44. right

because secession has always been such a peaceful movement.

[Bridget Burke]

24. When will your elected Governor lead California from the union?

And are you sure all your fellow Californians will go along with you? We're talking Fresno, Bakersfield, etc.

Look at the county maps--lots of California isn't all that Blue.

[QC]

26. Shhhhhh...you're not supposed to talk about that.

It doesn't fit very nicely into the little absolute good vs. absolute evil morality play that the more sanctimonious "blue staters" are pushing.

[chicagiana]

29. Austrian Annexation act ...

You'll all become a new Austrian colony !!!!

[Cleita]

30. Dear Bridget Burke:

California has always been more Republican in makeup than Democratic, but even our Republicans are moderate about many issues, don't hate gays or ethnic minorities, and believe Jesus is a feel good kind of guy not one that promotes war and more war. A big problem with our elections is that they tend to be more focused on local and state races and they voted for Bush for the tax breaks, not moral values.

This is the reason the cynical Republican Party ran Arnold as their candidate, a guy who couldn't run in Alabama without being stoned but perfect for shallow California Republicans. This push to make him President is a ploy to get the California electoral votes IMO.

The exception is certain clutches of mountain people who lost their jobs cutting down thousand year old Redwoods and who now have more in common with White Supremists than Republicans, but even these guys have been pushing separation from the Federal Government or at least splitting from California since the sixties. They blame the federal government and the environmentalists for closing the mills, but the truth is that the lumber giants have been outsourcing raw logs to Asia for decades now because it's cheaper.

So as you see, California is very diversified and different in make-up than any other state, so you can't paint it with a broad brush.

[mikewiszkowski]

39. Seccesion

Would the Red counties in Blue States be forced to go along with the seceding Blue States? Conversely, would Blue counties in Red States be forced to go with them?

Any attempt a seccesion would be costly and probably bloody. Would people wanting to go to the Red States expect to have their property bought by the Blue States so they can leave?

How would seccesion work without some type of coercive force being used?

[KnowerOfLogic]

42. I think there would be a lot of voluntary relocation; why not?

I live in a very red state, and am planning to move somewhere blue at the earliest opportunity. Life is short, why live it in constant conflict?

[mikewiszkowski]

46. Voluntary Seccesion

Do you own property? Are you willing to take a loss to move? If you have no buyers would you expect the Blue State or Country you move to to buy it? Would you default on a debt? Remember the new Red and Blue Country would have to have some semblance of civil discourse among the govts i.e. diplomatic relations. If some foreign power invaded the west coast republic woud you want help from the Red States if the war was going badly? Seccesion isn't to be taken lightly. It is more complicated than throwing a fit and packing your bags because you're angry.

[Cleita]

45. The same coercive force used to make us accept Bush

as our Lord and Savior. Sure many won't like it, but like I said California Republicans and even those in the Western parts of Washington and Oregon aren't Bibleheads and Freepers. Yes, we have some like Rimjob in Fresno, who runs the Free Republic website, but I suspect most of his members aren't West Coasters.

[rinsd]

47. Well define no one....

Even in CA over 40% of people voted for Bush. As much as is made about red and blue, the "purple" map seems more accurate.