Why the Religious Right cannot get the concept that

[zbdent]

homosexuality is not a "choice":

If there was a test to determine, in utero, that their unborn child would grow up to be a homosexual, they would start reconsidering their stance on abortion . . .

[bloom]

1. Metaphor, Morality, and Politics...

http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html#CONMOR


"The centrality of the Strict Father model to conservative politics also explains the attitudes of conservatives to feminism, abortion, homosexuality, and gun control. In the Strict Father model of the family, the mother is subordinated to running the day-to-day affairs of the home and raising the children according to the father's direction. It is the father that bears the major responsibility and makes the major decisions. The Strict Father model is exactly the model that feminism is in the business of overthrowing. Hence, the appropriate antipathy of conservatives to feminism (although there is the recent phenomenon of conservative feminists, namely, women who function with the values of conservative men such as self-discipline, self-reliance, the pursuit of self-interest, etc.). The conservative opposition to homosexuality comes from the same source. Homosexuality in itself is inherently opposed to the Strict Father model of the family."

much more context - if you read the whole thing

[iverglas]

6. more on USAmericans and the "strict father model"

Canadian research on USAmerican attitudes:

http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=456

Long and really worth reading.

Nearly 20 years ago, my colleagues at Environics in Toronto and CROP in Montreal began a study of Canadian social values. In our first survey of Canadian values in 1983, we asked Canadians if they strongly or somewhat agreed or disagreed that: "The father of the family must be the master in his own house." We posed more than 100 such questions to respondents that year. Our intention was to track these 100 items over time, dropping some, adding others; we hoped we'd measure what was important to Canadians or what was changing in our values and perspectives on life.

The "father must be master" question has become legendary at Environics. We love it because it measures a traditional, patriarchal attitude to authority in our most cherished institution: the family. Sons inherit the land, starting with the first -- primogeniture prevents estates from being subdivided like amoebas. Sons inherit the family business as in Smith and Son. Sons, not daughters, are named "Junior" in the hope they will prove worthy of their father's aristocratic seed.

In a nutshell, the pollsters (highly reputable) found, to their amazement, that while support for the patriarchal statement has declined dramatically everywhere else they studied, in all segments of the population, it has risen steadily in the US.

In our 2000 Canadian survey, only 5 per cent reported being strongly in support of patriarchal authority, down from the 15 per cent we found in 1983 ... . This decline was an authentic social revolution. Despite unremitting attacks on boomer values by people like David Frum, political conservatism has not translated into cultural conservatism in Canada.

The proportion in France favouring patriarchal leadership had also declined from 61 per cent in 1975 to 30 per cent in 2000. The Bastille of French chauvinism was also crumbling.

... Meanwhile, we found that where 42 per cent of Americans believed the father should be master in 1992, the number increased to 44 per cent in 1996. We wondered if this was a statistical anomaly. We went back into the field in 2000 to find out if the frontal assault on patriarchal authority by U.S. president Bill Clinton and television icon Homer Simpson would bring U.S. numbers more into line with those in Canada and France.

This time, 48 per cent of Americans said the father of the family must be master in his own home; 51 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. We were stunned.

The divide between the US and the rest of the modern world is enormous, and continues to grow.

[bloom]

7. 48% vs.51%

It's probably no accident that that is about what the exit polls had the vote count as - 48% Bush - 51% Kerry.


That is truly sad - statistics on our countries regression.

[ozarklib]

8. "master"

"we found that where 42 per cent of Americans believed the father should be master"

It is frightening that they think anyone should be the "master".

[iverglas]

14. that's very true

It is frightening that they think anyone should be the "master".

Patriarchy is one (and arguably the most insidious and pervasive) form of authoritarianism, but there are multiple others. They tend to go hand in hand, in societies and individuals. (Remember Kinder, Kirche, Küche ...).

The survey results show that the authoritarian attitude is a deep-rooted and intimate part of the collective USAmerican psyche -- to the extent that there is "a" psyche, which of course we are seeing there isn't; there are two. As bloom pointed out, the division between the two US-es can be seen in many manifestations.

As Michael Adams said in that article -- and to tie this back to the original topic of the thread ;) --

The 49th parallel, the world's longest undefended border, is certainly the world's most porous border. For more than a century, Canadians have been inundated with U.S. products, movies, music, TV, sports, brands and icons. And yet, in the face of this flood, Canadians remain distinctly Canadian. In fact, our distinctness from the country that so dominates our economy and popular culture is growing in at least one important aspect of our value system: our concept of the authority that goes with being a man, a woman or a child in the family. It's no leap to assume the natural leader in the house is also the natural leader at work, in the church, in politics.

In 1976, Canada's Progressive Conservative Party elected a new leader, Joe Clark, whose wife, Maureen McTeer, kept her maiden name. Despite this, Mr. Clark became prime minister. Now Mr. Clark once again heads the Conservative Party, and has just served as marshall of Calgary's 2001 Gay Pride parade. Can you imagine U.S. President George W. Bush leading a Gay Pride parade in Houston?

[newyawker99]

16. Hi ozarklib!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[CBGLuthier]

2. Twilight of the Golds

TV movie a few years ago dealt with this exact issue.

[Maat]

3. Oh, that's an ugly thought.

But I've no doubt my fundie relatives would do anything to avoid having a gay in the family.

Let's not get discouraged. We must support human rights and human rights orgs' educational efforts.

I see a good sign in that, at least, my teenage friends are not ignorant or prejudiced against LBGT friends. They are pro-human-rights enthusiastically.

[tk2kewl]

4. yeah but your in california

and i am in ny. i dont run into fundies too much, some homophobes, but i can't imagine what kids are thinking in places where they have been brought up with these ideas.

[DeadHead67]

5. I can tell you what they're thinking in Montana, Wyoming, . . . . . .

. . .and some of those kinds of places(and don't forget godforsaken Kansas). They are thinking, KILL THE QUEERS!!! Remember Matthew Sheppard (sp?). That's what they do with homos out west, unless of course their girlfriend isn't putting out, in which case they get drunk and 'do' each other. 'Boy was I drunk last night, I don't remember a thing'syndrome. OK, enough rant.

[idiosyncratic]

12. Let's never forget Matthew Shepard

And, the true story behind the movie "Boys Don't Cry."

These people just can't get the idea that gender follows a continuum.

It isn't Black and White -- All Boy or All Girl -- All testosterone-filled macho man vs. submissive Stepford-wife females.

[Raster]

18. been there. done him.

[bloom]

9. There was another demonstration in Bloomington, IN yesterday

People like to come to Bloomington from Campbellsburg because they know there is an outspoken gay population there. They had their usual signs. "God Hates Gays." (they may have used a different term - the photo cut the bottom of the sign off).

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/

[Kid_A]

10. Hey! I live in Bloomington!

And I always feel extremely proud when the "Old Paths" jerkoffs come to town. I'm proud to live in a town that is seen as a threat to bigoted rednecks. Whenever they visit us, I always make it a point to go down to People's Park and tell them just that. It drives them crazy, and it makes me feel really good.

Nice to meet another Bloomingtonian DUer!:hi: :toast:

[undergroundpanther]

11. Ok

Is it a choice or not? Newsflash: IT DOES NOT MATTER...
When being gay was seen as involuntary it was because of a mental illness.So to fight this illness label,the gays said it's a choice and being gay ISN't a mental illness..
Now the we are saying it isn't a choice again..

When will the gay community leaders get it?

When will they stop quibbling over choice or involuntary it does not matter! IT NEVER DID. This is letting the control freaks frame the arguments!What freedom itself IS is the freedom TO BE WHO YOU ARE and to MAKE CHOICES and TAKE RISKS.

Myself being transgender,Some ask me, is it a choice or not?
I dunno.I don't care anymore. If I am free, I have the right to CHOOSE whether to be my biological gender or NOT to be.
I have the right to Choose always.I can choose to be happy or I can choose to be totally miserable and lie to myself,about who I am and conform to societies control games and be a 'woman'.

Once my choices are taken away, by forces like the church,state or psychiarty or biological imperatives,and gay people not realizing they are being entrapped by this "involuntarily" gay stuff by Eugenicists..When I am destined to be___...I am not free to choose to be anything else anymore.I am trapped by birth into a class,a role,a category I do not desire or choose and society will label me,and pin a pink triangle on me andf I'll be told to take a death shower after all these facists can say to themsklves, I admitted I was born defective..according to the bullies deciding for society what"normal" means..I was destined by biology to die because I was unable to conform.

What happened to Choice as a GOOD thing? Freedom is the freedom to Choose a way of life,a direction,an identity a lover,a lifestyle.So what if being gay is a CHOICE? Don't we have a right to choose our own orientations? Choice: that's what freedom itself IS.
And who says choosing to be Gay,transgender or whatever is wrong? Bible thumpers who CHOOSE that particular fascist kind of faith because they are CHOOSING to be bullies and are facists by choice, who are choosing to band together to take over the country by FORCE so they can pick and choose who's freedoms ,so they can eliminate people like me whoChoose to not go along with thier imposotion of "norms" they CHOSE to impose on other FREE people against thier will that will take our FREEDOMS to be who we are and like whom we like,away from us!.

We can CHOOSE to say NO to "fate" or helpless pre destiny" and we can deal with the fact we may CHOOSE to be Gay,or maybe not and we don't care about justifying our freedom because it is human rights and we can choose to tell them all to fuck off,and to get over themselves.IF we are free to choose to do that in our own hearts,first and not be shamed by our potential freedom of choice.Regarless of whether it's Chosen or not...


I have a right as a human being to be who I am and to choose to live my life in a way that makes ME,happy.I have the right to persue My happiness as long as it does not interfere with others consent.
No one has the right to take away my freedom of choice..

No one else has the right to abuse me,or tyrannize me or scapegoat me for choosing my hapiness over certain popular bigotries and cultural demands of conformity to an authoritarian culture or this notion of biological "fate".To manipulate me into giving up my choice to be transgender and happy by using biology as the rationale for something that needs no explanation because it's my free choice,is to make me not be free.

Fuck any asshole who wants to takes away my freedom to choose my orientation .Fuck any piece of shit who would limit my freedom to risk ,the wrath of fools and the chance to be happy and free others from taboos,.Fuck you to any asswipe seeking to undermine me choice to define myself as I see fit,Fuck any bully trying to tell me who I am ,as he tries to tell me what my own happiness is based in because he's choosing a sick religion to believe in and justify his choice to be an abusive prick to people he doesen't like using religion and propaganda to incite the scared like a club to excuse and obsure the choice of bullies to misuse freedom to beat me and my kind into submission so we will be forced to either obey thier dominionism or die in the closet so the control freak can feel secure in his pathetic power trip game.

Fuck all these bullies and bigots and beliefs that excuse abuse and authoritarians trying to take away my freedom..if they don't like what I do with MY my freedom of choice,tough.That is the price of freedom,not being a tyrant over someone else's choices...Tyrants have no right to take someone else's freedom away.And once you start downplaying choice the tyrants have won.People who refuse to let others choose aren't as free as they think they are if they choose to use thier freedom to take my choices and freedoms away.

Once one kind of person loses their freedom to make choices for thier own life and persue happiness ,we _All_ lose Our freedom to make choices and find happiness.
Freedom and diversity,happiness and democracy cannot be tolerant of bullies tyranny and hypocrite people who use thier freedom to control others,limit thier choices and take away thier freedoms and human rights.

[bloom]

13. I agree...eom

[iverglas]

15. me too

I'd prefer to argue about whether Southern Baptists are born that way or choose to be that way. ;)

If they're born that way, that kind of obviates that born-again thing, I'd think ...

[Maat]

17. Uh..interesting thought.

I just watched relatives that hadn't been religious before move back to Oklahoma and become right-wing religious zealots of the finest sort - they became Southern Baptists too. Hmmm... after watching the situation for a couple of years ... I think it gives one an excuse to be a traditionalist ... uh, I think I need a timeout now.