For your Michael Moore doubters out there - a rebuttal

[UdoKier]

There seems to be a concerted effort on the MSM to smear Michael Moore, even blame him for the democrats losses last week. The implication is that Moore is a liar and a nutjob, and anti-American not to be trusted.

Those of us who have watched Moore's career since "Roger and Me" know that none of that is anywhere NEAR the truth, but much of America was unfamiliar with Moore until "Bowling for Columbine". Most people only know of F-911 from secondhand info. I've seen and heard tons of people denounce it as "lies" and yet they almost NEVER cite a specific falsehood. I guess the fact that F-911 id mostly cobbled together from news clips makes it kinda hard to dig up a lie.

Anyway, for those people who insist that F-911 is a lie, Mike has put together a handy list of facts in the movie, with the proof to back up the claims. I wouldn't waste time with anyone who hasn't read it, since they're probably full of crap.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/

[Columbia]

1. BFC

Can you believe that Charlton Heston went to Columbine right after the killings and made the "cold, dead hands" speech?

[UdoKier]

7. This post a joke?

This is one of the favorite RW examples of Moore's "lies". He made an appearance at Columbine, but the "cold, dead hands" line was at a previous appearance.

The right claimed that the editing was deceptive, making you think they both happened at the same appearance.

Of course, the film quality was different, as was his suit. I knew the "cold, dead hands" bit was older stock footage, but whatever. The point was his insensitivity at appearing in Columbine so soon affter the tragedy.

I actually thought Moore was a unnecessarily rough on the old geezer. There have been a few other minor points besides that I could quibble with him about. But overall, I think his films do a great job at getting out another side of the story that the MSM chooses consistently to ignore.

[Columbia]

9. So he did hold a rally in Columbine?

[UdoKier]

10. He attended some sort of event.

I don't remember specifically now, but I believe it was gun-related, but not specifically NRA. (Feel free to correct me here, experts!)

[IrateCitizen]

24. It was an NRA event in Denver, CO

Columbine is a suburb of Denver south of the city, about a 30 minute drive IIRC.

The rally was held very shortly after the Columbine school shootings.

ON EDIT -- I don't think that Moore claimed the rally was held in Columbine, just very close by, and that it was extremely insensitive for the NRA to do such a thing so close to the school shootings there.

[CO Liberal]

12. He DIDN'T Go to Columbine, and YOU KNOW IT!!!

The NRA had their convention scheduled for Denver, and held a scaled-back event after the Columbine shooting. But that (and the portrayal of Moses in BFC) has NOTHING to do with the facts presented in Fahrenheit 9/11.

Charleton Heston is a weasel, and so is everyone else in the NRA leadership. Michael Moore is not the enemy here, Columbia - Bush is.


This is the DU member still known as CO Liberal.

[Columbia]

14. Hi CO!

Nice to see you out of the Lounge. :)

Of course, Bush is the enemy. I can't agree with you on Heston though. Although I am definitely no fan of the NRA, Heston has always been a supporter of civil rights for all including marching with Dr. MLK way back before it was hip to do so.

[CO Liberal]

16. But...

...his activities with the Nuts Ruining America cancel out all the good he did marching with Dr. King. I consider his pro-gun activities to be a precursor to his current Alzheimer's.

[Columbia]

18. Agree to disagree

[UdoKier]

17. Well, the point is, Moore wasn't being intentionally deceptive.

He appeared at an event NEAR Columbine (obviously not at the High School) very soon after the shooting.

And yes, F-911 is much more focused and well-documented.

[CO Liberal]

23. And BFC Has NOTHING TO DO With F-9/11

However, right-wing factions in this country will do or say anything to discredit Michael Moore.

Pro-gun Democrats have to decide for themselves which side they want to be on.

[Dirty Hippie]

2. Michael Moore is a National Treasure in my book. n/t

[Ranec]

3. I wouldn't discuss the movie with anyone who hasn't seen it.

Say all you want about the facts, I don't care.

The power of the movie is what shows us about the war, and the way the thugs in the White House are killing our own soldiers for nothing.

The bloodshed continues in Fallujah, but to what end!

Now, I'm upset.

[shrub chipper]

4. Michael Moore, AL Franken, Carville, Bill Clinton

All are now DU punching bags.

Ralph Nader is our new hero?!?!?!

I won't be drinking any of this Kool Aid , either!

[gatorboy]

5. Seriously! And people should look up to Who? Hannity? Coulter? Rush?

n/t

[UdoKier]

8. Huh?

I'm not attacking any of them. This post is in SUPPORT of Moore. Did you bother to read it?

[shrub chipper]

15. I know you're not, but

I also think we are in the minority here at present!!

[seraph]

22. You have to wonder...

Why all of these "punching bag" threads keep showing up.


I mean, sure, we can all criticize and have an opinion; but I am surprised at how quickly some are turning on their own.

And more to the point; "Just WHO is turning on OUR own."

Or to say it another way,

"Who wants US to turn on OUR own"


Putting my tinfoilhat away for the day.... for now...:tinfoilhat:

[Angrillori]

6. I can't believe how easily we on the left buy into

The right wings demonization of ourselves.

How many democrats jumped on the "flip-flopper" bandwagon?
How many democrats jumped all over Michael Moore?

Why?

Because the republicans turned on their rovian slander machine, and we bought the crap they were selling.

It frustrates me a lot. Why do we turn on our own at the drop of a hat, YET O'Lie-lly can falafel, Limbaugh can pop pills, Coulter can, well be Coulter, Bush can drool during a national debate, and the right wing doesn't even criticize them, much less call for their heads!

WHY?

Frontline on PBS last night had a great episode on (I think his name was) Luntz, who's been doing market research and tailoring even the words the repubs use for policy (death tax vs. estate tax, global warming vs. climate change for example). They are marketing their product like geniuses, and their product is BAD, yet it's not just their supporters that are buying it, it's us too.

WHY?

Are we fooled that easily? Do we not want to succeed? Why can't we support each other the way the republicans support each other? Why are we buying their propaganda?

[idiosyncratic]

11. That last segment of Frontline should be required viewing.

Maybe there is a transcript on the website.

The words people use actually frame the dialogue.

[shrub chipper]

13. Exactly!! I am so frustrated at the threads

on here attacking the stalwarts of the Party and other Democrats.

I am sad and frustrated , too, but we are going to self destruct if we spend all our time on conspiracy theories and tearing down anyone who is not going along with these theories.

[seraph]

19. MSM?

:scared::tinfoilhat::scared:


Clarify Mary.

[K-W]

20. I assumed: Main Stream Media

but I dont know for sure

[seraph]

21. There's a place on the internet(s) where they say that....

:scared::tinfoilhat::scared:

[sadiesworld]

25. They are so very transparent.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Favorite wrong-wing trick:

Create a big fuss about a media phenomenon that the pundit hasn't actually seen, make up some lies about it, and spread it all over the airwaves.

My favorite non-political example is the British movie Priest, which has as one of its plots a gay priest, but is really quite a thoughtful film about the tension between official Catholic doctrine and real-life issues. Every liberal Christian I know who saw it thought it was wonderful.

But all the wrong-wing gasbags had to hear was "gay priest," and they went ballistic, telling anyone who would have them on the air that the movie was "anti-Catholic" and "sacrilegious." Had they seen it? Of course not! They just KNEW.

Michael Moore gets the same treatment. He takes the occasional cheap shot, but he's a rank amateur in the cheap shot department when compared with Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter. He makes films about things that really matter, things that our Democratic politicians fail to address, such as the deindustrialization of America, the culture of violence, and the PNAC.

That's why the conservatives are so on his case all the time, and I am disgusted with the timid, pants-wetting centrists who fail to stand up for him or act embarrassed by him. I can't help thinking that it's their nouveau riche elitism peeking through.

Every Dem should pounce on the neck of any Republicanite who disses Moore and say, "Have you seen the film? Is it not true that the Bush family is old buddies with the Bin Laden family? Is it not true that Bush did nothing for seven minutes after the planes struck?..."