This left vs right battle is idiotic and unnecessary. We need secession.

[requiem99]

I don't know if anyone else noticed, but all these articles joking about the blue states joining Canada are not really jokes: People are pissed and sick of the red states lording their moral majority superiority over the rest of us who actually practise what we preach. I can go into Lexington, in the middle of KY, one of the reddest of the red states, and if I'm wearing a Kerry shirt I'll get stopped by at least 2 or 3 people each time, and most all of them say the same thing: Things are getting out of hand. The religious ultra right wing slide this country is in, and lets not sugarcoat anything, it IS a slide, is causing more and more people within the country to lose faith (the irony blows my mind) in the USA and the things it ONCE stood for.

Freedom, as long as you don't actually want to use it.
Liberty, as long as you don't actually want to express it publicly.
Justice, of which there isn't any.

The worst part of it all is that the Bush cult uses religion as a tool for mass manipulation on a scale unseen since Nazi Germany. Bush simply has to say "jump" and his tens of millions of churchgoing lobotomites will all chant in unison "how high, lord?" One of the most ironic things in this whole religious aspect is that, as a Buddhist who grew up in an evangelical Christian household, I'm afraid, AFRAID, of saying what I believe in outside of the incredible edible internet. AFRAID. What principle was this country founded on again? Refresh my memory, I've forgotten it amid the torrent of nasal screeching of a million bushites all imposing their values on the rest of us.

I'll tell you one more thing, and this is something that's been bothering me a lot: Christians have this fixation with prophecy, and not a week goes by that I don't hear one of my parents remark to me that "we're living in the end times" and "the persecution is coming soon, prepare for it" -- Well guys, I AGREE! Persecution IS coming soon! However, as with most of the other times throughout history, it’s going to be the Christians doing the persecuting and not vice versa.

At this point, I'm not questioning whether the United States is going to collapse, its only a question of when and how fast. I do hope I get a chance to get out first, and also that it doesn't take down the rest of the civilized world with it when it implodes. New Zealand is looking pretty enticing right about now, but mostly, I'd just like to have a chance at that 'life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness' thing I've heard so much about growing up.

[Solitaire]

1. let's be fair, please...

It's not all Christians, it's only the fanatics.

A fanatic is a fanatic is a fanatic, no matter what sign they carry.

Faniticism is a very bad thing, even if it's to do good, for your good may not be my good.

Everything in moderation and the world would be a happier place.

:)

[ladjf]

11. The quasi Christian right-wing, conservative cults.

The only claim to be Christian. You might say they are posing as
Christians while actually following policies of anti-Christians.
They are most definitely giving Christianity a bad name just as the so-called Islamic terrorist are for Islam.

[Solitaire]

14. ladjf

right on.

To be Christian is to be Christ-like.

I really don't see how going to war is "Christ-like".

At all.

Very, very sad.

[ladjf]

18. Slaughtering 100,000 Iraqis doesn't strike me as living by

the Golden Rule. (and with no provocation whatsoever)

[hiphopnation]

25. you forgot a key component to that line...

"Everything in moderation, including moderation."

[bloom]

27. It is all the Christians that are motivated by the Patriarchness of it all

Which is a damn lot of them...


Metaphor, Morality, and Politics,

Or,

Why Conservatives Have Left Liberals In the Dust

http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html#CONMOR

[PhuLoi]

34. Fairly then, most of the fanatics follow one of the Abrahamic

religions.

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

2. Secession would just lead to another war

If that neocon mentality carried over into another nation, what's to stop them from seeing us as a threat and declaring war against us? Who gets the nukes?

If we get the nukes, then that means we have WMD, which means we hate their freedom.

That isn't to say they wouldn't lose, though, because the blue states control all of the major military targets.

[LamedVov]

3. I'd rather win than secede

This kind of talk is for sore losers. Bill Clinton won twice and so did Gore and Carter. What we need is a candidate who can win. We have that in Hillary Clinton. It always seems darkest before the dawn. We just need a little patience and hard work. Then we can take back our country and wave goodbye to Bush and his neocon mafia.

[requiem99]

5. 10 posts, you claim to support Hillary, and you call ME a sore loser.

ooooook.

[LamedVov]

6. Make it 11 posts

Huh???

[requiem99]

4. Bush has successfully blurred the line between Christians and fanatics

To me, anyone who supports Bush, either through fanaticism or just plain stupid ignorance, is the enemy at this point. Not the "I'll kill you if I get a chance" kind of enemy, but someone I will go out of my way to avoid (and privately scorn) whenever possible.

Freedom of speech is dying; I agree with something I read last week, I don't remember where it was, maybe talkingpointsmemo or something, but it was talking about journalism in the next 4 years and it said something to the effect, "We've got to work harder now than ever before in history to keep our freedom of the press, because the next 4 years are going to try it like its never been tried."

[Solitaire]

7. I completely

agree with you.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[requiem99]

9. I respectfully disagree.

My parents ARE repukes, of the bible thumping bush lobotomite variety, and the fact that they are smart people (with 150k household income and both have masters degrees) makes it even worse.

They voted on the media induced perception of Bush being a man of god, and that he shared their values, NOTHING ELSE.

If push indeed come to shove and civil war or sucession happened, I'd be gone to either a blue state for the latter and somewhere far, FAR away for the former, because while I value this country's democracy, I'm not fighting a bunch of religious nutjobs for it. Let them have their states, we'll take ours.

However, if they declared war on our liberal ideology in the name of "God" I think it would be time to blow up some Elephants.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

13. No offense, but...

I assume you'll be OK blowing your parents brains out? As they're part of the enemy, right??

Or at the very least, you'd be OK with them being killed?


Please...

Let's move on.

[requiem99]

15. Stop trying to instigate trouble where there is none to be had. Not biting

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

20. Not instigating anything...

...Just taking this moronic talk to its logical conclusion.

Don't like it? Don't start the discussion.

[Bridget Burke]

39. He hasn't even left home yet.....

And you ask him a serious question about grownup stuff.

It's not fair! He's gonna go back to his room & sulk some more.

[ladjf]

12. The secessionist talk isn't serious.

[PhuLoi]

43. Respectfully, speak for yourself. There is much to recommend

secession. Speaking as one of the 'moronic'(a cv including electrical engineering, computer science, geology, medicine, physics) crowd, unless and until voter fraud is dealt with, non-republicans (or as I like to think of us, the literate albeit moronic) will be unrepresented within our government. That and the need to preserve the Constitution, even if there far fewer states.

[ladjf]

51. I'm part of the same "moronic" group. But, actual secession

is impossible.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

30. Oh how cute...You used the F word. Aren't you a real crusader??

Or maybe you would protect your family members (Even with....GASP....A GUN) if they were threatend by someone based on their political views?

Or maybe not...Maybe you would just call the cival war participate a "Fascist" and consider your job done??

[Cleita]

33. If that's true, then your mother and father should

be really upset that Nazis have hijacked their party and they should be working to get rid of them and not apologize for them. The Repugs and the Repukes spoken about on this forum are the present administration and their Nazi overlords at the PNAC.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

45. My parents, like 99% of the population out there...

...are just voting like they always have (Give or take a few percentage points either way). They call themselves Republicans because they've always called themselves Republicans. Unlike me (In reverse), they've actually voted for some Democrats...If they like the person running, or know someone who likes them...In other words, they're not Idealogs.

You, me, everyone else here, and Repukes who hang-out on their message boards are the other 1%...Idealogs...And we take all this WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously as compared to the rest of the population.

I'm not going to change my mom and dad's minds, because quite frankly, nothing has changed in their world for the last 50 years.

Which is basically why I have such a big problem with this inane secession talk.

[ladjf]

10. In about 500,000,000 years the sun will become a "red giant"

extinguishing all life on Earth. Is that what they mean by "end times"?

[flobee1kenobi]

17. Rush had a talking point about this

RE;The rich blue states were supporting the poor red states and the blue wants to cut off the red.

he basically said to stop complaining, after all, the whole country supported New York after 9/11.

I say we let the red states fend for themselves and remove the word "united" from the states of america!

[chaska]

16. Secession IS the solution....

Which, unfortuantely, will not likely happen in our lifetime.

There is a natural size for nation states. It is defined by culture and geography. The US does not have a single unified culture. Never has and never will. I'm all for diversity, but not if diversity includes these pug nutjobs. The USSR did the right thing when they broke apart. We should and likely will - someday - do the same.

[MadHound]

21. No, it isn't the solution, and your examples are flawed

First off, Russia is still larger geographically that the US, even after the USSR broke up. Secondly, you are overlooking the 800 pound gorilla in the world, China, which is not only larger geographically, but also population wise. And gee, it has held together in one form or another for a couple of thousand years now. Shoots your theory out of the water now.

Secession would be a nightmare. How are you going to divide indivisible national assets, like, oh, say the Hoover Dam, an asset in a red state, but one that is vital to a blue state? Or say the national treasure house of this nation, Washington DC, which isn't in any state proper, has one blue border, one red border, yet went overwhelmingly blue this year. What about all of those national monuments, artifacts, the Smithsonian, etc? What about corporations that do business in different colored states, that have physical property in different regions? Start going down that road, and the logistics become a nightmare.

Then if we do split up without coming to blows over such issues, what is going to keep us from coming to blows in the future. Or better yet, groups of two or three states decide to take this opportunity to break off on their own. The balkanization of America would be a real possiblity if secession came about, it was one of the greatest fears of the Confederacy back in the Civil War. And if say the red states wanted a blue state, we could very well have an intracontinental war. Not a pleasant scenario for those who live here.

Rather, let us try to achieve our ends through persuation and the ballot box. It has served us in good stead so far, let us not dump it now.

[chaska]

32. When you don't want to do something, you can always find a reason.

You counter "my theory" (read 'A Pattern Language') makes no sense. Culture is, or at least should be, the predominant factor in determining a natural nation. But you can always hold a nation together by force. Until you can't anymore.

In any case - gee whiz - no reason to panic. It ain't gonna happen in your lifetime.

Don't get so personally invested in the argument. It's just words.

"I would never die for my beliefs, I may be wrong." Bertrand Russell

[MadHound]

35. LOL friend,

What doesn't make sense about the balkanization of a continent? Or intracontinental warfare? Or how to divide up indivisable assets? Specifics please.

And if you are simply going by the need to break up due to culture differences, then quite frankly if you take a look at the big picture, we have more reason to stay together than to bust apart, same language, same culture, same overall religion. In fact America has become more homogenized over the past fifty years due to the ease of travel. You don't have much in the way of regional cuisines, regional dialects are fading, regional traditions are fading.

And please don't mistake intensity for personal involvement in an arguement. Cheers

[akwapez]

19. not the answer

If all of the intelligent people secede from the US, who will stop Bush? We need to be here and fight for our rights and fight for our voices. The current regime will continue to destroy the environment making where you live irrelevant. We can only win by fighting from the inside.

[puttothesword]

22. Secession is an excellent solution.

I <3 the idea of secession. I'm thinking in my state getting it on a ballot initiative might at least stir the thought up some.

I ordered one of these: http://www.cafepress.com/secessionnow I'm sure Fatherland Security won't be happy but eh, I always wanted to see Cuba.

[LuminousX]

23. Secession is not an answer

It will never happen, it is a red herring, it is a pointless path to ponder.

We are all cousins and we can and will work throught this. Our country has gone through dark and vile times before and it looks like we are going through one again. So be it. We are strong and we are intelligent as a whole. We can weather this storm and emerge victorious.

[info being]

24. The thing is, we can seceed into a virtual cyber-government

We have to stop thinking of societies and countries as something that has geographic boundaries.

[sweetheart]

47. But living on line is a bit hard

I think we're experiencing the early discussions of what ultimately
lead jewish people to create israel. When you are continuously
a persecuted minority, there comes a point where you start to demand
representation in government.

Since the US government will never represent minority needs, there
is a strong case for secession or the founding of another country
that DOES represent those liberal values. Likely as such folks
are not so religiously motivated, and that nation states that support
such values already exist, then the result of all this secession
talk is merely to join another such nation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. What a horrible idea. No more Superpower? No more #1 bully?

Why, why, we'd be reduced to cooperating with the other nations of the world instead of telling them what to do and ripping them off!! No more glorious invasions! No more slaughter! No more "support our troops". No more living off the backs of the world's poor!

What's next? Civilization?

[secedeeconomically]

29. Bush is a fake Christian

The irony in all of this is that Bush is a fair weathered Christian. Him and Karl Rowe use religion to gain power. Bush he uses this people to further his agenda, which has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the love of power and taking care of his good old boy supporters. The nature any religion is to follow someone of something blindly and that what we have my friends in America.

[requiem99]

31. Well no fucking shit man, what gave it away?

His coke habit or his flippant flipping off of the camera AFTER his 'born again experience'? Or maybe the constant warmongering, torture advocation, and attack on civil liberties? Maybe using his religion as his primary campaign platform and stump wedge issue when the country desparately needed a uniter? Or pick any one of the 7000 other reasons, I don't care.

[Sleepless In NY]

46. requiem99 NoSecession, Red States Pay up, lets scare Rush!

I don't think secession is possible, but I do think some kind of movement that holds Red States accountable for their fair share of the tax burden is absolutely necessary.

Why should we be paying the tab, yet have no say as to who is elected president??? Makes no sense to me.

I don't listen to Rush, but if he's talking about it, well where's there's smoke, there's fire and he may be wanting to squash it. All the more reason for us to be bringing it up.

Bush has run up trillions of dollars in debt, now if this doesn't bother Red Staters, may I respectfully suggest, they start picking up their share.

I hear alot about "responsibilty" from the Red State bush voters, well folks, now's your chance! Get off the gravy train.

I also dont understand the attitude of Blue Voters who live in Red States on this board. I would think in order to effect some kind of change in your states, you would be pushing this subject, not talking about how hard it is for you all, reminds me of bush in the debates..."its so hard!" Ok, so help change it!

Start reminding your Red State neighbors of a few facts.....This country was founded in the North not the South. Red States lead in divorce, teen pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. 90% of the tax burden (which has gone thru the roof with their boy bush)is payed for by the Blue States. NY, NJ, PA, DC, states most effected by 9/11 didn't go for the guy who failed to protect us in the 1st place.

And for our side, if Rush is telling people to "forget about it" We better get on the issue and stay with it like bees on honey.

requiem99 you have bought up a real good point, and if people are offended by it, too bad, I'm offended I have to pay their way and put up with this jerk bush for another 4 years..who is really the injured party here???? Blue States.

We need to start correcting the erroneous perceptions about Blue States. And one sure way is for Blue Voters in Red States to help. No time to bury your head in the sand and cry "not my fault" May not be, but you can do your part and also pay your fair share.

requiem99 whoever can get something going to bring some of these inequities to light, if only someone in our party had the guts to do it, I'd back them 100%. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Dont think secession is practical , but it is way past time for the Red States to get off the gravy train. Maybe it will "enlighten" them if it starts coming out of their wallets.

Some good talking points:
Walking the walk on family values http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/10/31/walking_the_walk_on_family_values/

End Red State Welfare http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/151749/966

Reach out and sneer: Dem radicals speak to the Red States http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/07/blue_state_to_reds/

Coarse but absolutely hits the nail on the head: http://www.fuckthesouth.com/

[ArkDem]

36. Maybe we would get somewhere if hundreds were courageous

enough to protest in the manner of Thich Quang Duc and dozens of his brothers and sisters in Vietnam.

[FizzFuzz]

44. actually, about a million people DID protest last March in DC

at the March for Women's lives.
You may not have heard though, media barely reported it. (nb: I'm not being snarky to you, I'm snarking about partisan media. grrr. pisses me off)

anyway, there have been many many protests since the beginning of Smirky's reign....thats good, but not forcing any admin change yet.

(I'm not familiar with Thich Quang Duc's protest, I must admit. Was there something particular that made those protests successful?)

[ArkDem]

49. Yes, there was. Around 100 Buddist monks and nuns

protested Catholic rule in Vietnam by doing self immolations.

[FizzFuzz]

50. ahh. Ohh yes. That.....

I was a kid, so I didn't pay attention to why they were doing it, though I remember seeing horrifically tragic photographs.

[LiberalPersona]

37. Secession

is not a solution. In fact, it will amplify the problems exponentially. You really don't want to go down that road. Trust me.

[BlueMinded]

38. Secession will never happen...

so why bother even discussing it?

[Bridget Burke]

40. It's a popular topic for causing argument & dissension

And never goes anywhere.

You're new (welcome!) & are not yet as deadly tired of these juvenile time wasting threads.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Here's the map. You start drawing the boundaries.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. Didn't we already fight a war about this?

:shrug:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

48. The poster secedeeconomically--his name says it all

Borders are somewhat passe. We're moving to a point where the "1st" and "3rd" worlds are everywhere, and just a condo-community guard-gate away from each other. That's globalization, and neither party isn't helping it along, I hate to say. It's just too damned convenient for the corporate powers not to have yuppies and coolies both, in both Shanghai and Sioux Falls.

That being said, OUR ONLY RECOURSE as still semi-affluent people, on the global scale, is to vote with our bucks. Stop buying Republican crap! It is low-quality anyway, and any of it that you put on or in your body will eventually kill you. If we can form our own economy, politics will be irrelevant, because politics is merely a superstructure on economics.