Teaser: if Dean loses nomination, does he run as an independent??

[Starpass]

1-Howard really doesn't have anywhere to go if he's dumped. He's not a gov any longer and I can't see him opening up a quaint little practice in the outback of Vermont. Hard to keep them down on the farm when they've listened to the yelling crowds, you know. And Howard's been a political guy for quite some time.

2-Howard isn't exactly a party faithful----either now or in Vermont. Perhaps he invisions himself as a new Nader.

So, if he can't take the prize, do you think Howard is capable of then destroying all chances for the Dems? Is he capable of making some strange bedfellows along the way if he bolts????

I know that if Howard gets the nomination, every one of the candidates will endorse him and support him. I, truly, don't know if Howard would do the same in return.

[ButterflyBlood]

1. He has stated a million times in the past that's not going to happen

[LuminousX]

2. Nope.

He wouldn't 'go it alone.' Not really out of faithfulness, but more out of realistic expectations. Without the party machinery helping him after the nomination, he'd be fighting a two fronted war against Repub and Democratic candidates. No way would he do that. I think he would angle for a cabinet position.

[GumboYaYa]

3. You haven't been listening to Howard

if you honestly believe the content of your post. He has said time and time again that the most important thing about this election is for the Dems to beat Bush.

The answer is a resounding "NO."

[Ripley]

4. How many times are you people going to dregde this up?

He has said he will stand behind the Dem that gets the nomination.

Why would he switch parties?

Pathetic attack. He had a quaint little practice for years in Vermont... do you really have to post ignorant crap?

[Starpass]

12. Ripley--it's not ignorant. I honestly don't know because I honestly

don't quite trust the man----and there are Dems in Vermont who learned not to trust him either. So I don't know. He walked into that meeting and proclaimed to be the Democratic Wing of the Democractic Party. I thought, 'great---finally someone going back to some liberal ideas and telling the establishment they are far too far to the right of things'. Then every interview I've seen where inevitably the interviewer mentions the word liberal, Howard is determined to get it across that he isn't a liberal. So I have no damn idea what the guy meant in that speech. When he denied the liberal charge, I just wrote him off as another politician with a "hook". Then I began to read posts of people from Vermont who talked about how much Howard was into wheeling and dealing with repukes to stay in office, etc. I don't know this guy---and I don't take just HIS word for it. I want to know. I don't know if Howard is a Dem "player". And, I cannot fathom why the hell someone would seal his papers (a la Bush cartel). I'm sick of people with their sealed secret papers. I want to know what's going on. Ignorance is not bliss--we found that out with Bush.

[JNelson6563]

I have an idea

of what he meant:

He walked into that meeting and proclaimed to be the Democratic Wing of the Democractic Party. I thought, 'great---finally someone going back to some liberal ideas and telling the establishment they are far too far to the right of things'. Then every interview I've seen where inevitably the interviewer mentions the word liberal, Howard is determined to get it across that he isn't a liberal. So I have no damn idea what the guy meant in that speech.

Well for one thing he may have been referring to the fact that he has spoken pretty loudly against Bush while so many Democrats in Congress were busy "standing shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush". Maybe that was one of the things he meant.

Not only was everyone tripping over themselves to vote the right way on Iraq and Homeland Insecurity so as not to draw Rove's fire in November and beyond but I recall hearing little about any congress-person really railing against Bush's misuse of the powers they gave him. I know Kucinich led the anti-war vote effort in the House BTW even though it got little coverage. The rest from Congress were hardly drowning each other's voices out--when we launched our unprecedented pre-emptive attack on Iraq--in protest at Bush's inability to form a coalition. Of course he couldn't form one, he had crappy "evidence" to support the war. Where was the hue and cry?!?!?

I think, back when Dean was saying he was here to represent the Democratic wing of the Party he meant he was willing to loudly criticize Bush/Halliburton's war. As opposed to voting for it and then, long after the fact, when all things in Iraq are in smoldering ruins, no WMDs found, soldiers dying daily, terrorism increasing and (probably most importantly) the war losing popularity with the people denouncing it mightily. That quaint old fashioned idea of loyal opposition. Key word: opposition.

I got angry and frustrated with each appearance of a Dem in the Rose Garden with the Simian. Every vote cast "aye" for the Iraq resolution did the same thing (BTW Hillary's stung me the worst by far). On and on the list of disappointments from my own Party goes. By the time Dean came onto the scene I, and no doubt countless others, were damn glad to hear someone whose tail wasn't between their legs and who wasn't doing an imitation of Bush. He gave voice to much of what I felt.

Those disregarded calls/letters/faxes/e-mails from many, many consitituents regarding those big issue votes last fall are going to bite those congress-people in the ass. Via Howard Dean.

Julie

Also wanted to add, additionally I know Kucinich was never shy about his opposition. I think it is often discounted because of the hand-wringing of Dems in Congress as a whole. Just giving credit where it's due.

[Droopy]

5. If he doesn't get the nomination

He'll go back to Vermont take a little time off and then maybe be a doctor again. Or maybe he'll get a job as a political analyst for somebody. Maybe he'll go to work as consultant for some company. But I'm betting you'll see him endorse whoever gets the nomination. You gotta know that he knows what is at stake here in the next election. How could he be so selfish as to run as an independent?

[CMT]

6. Where do you get this idea?

because Dean has said time and again he will support the Democratic nominee and "any of them are far better than what we got". He has categorically stated he will not run as a third party candidate.

So why do you discount these repeated statements from Dean? and what do you mean he wasn't "exactly a party faithful--either now or in Vermont"?? Dean has always ran as a democrat, he has always won as a democrat and he has always supported democrats.

[ShaneGR]

7. He's said he would support the Dem 1000 times now

I think the only candidate who might be dumb enough to run as an independent is Kucinich.

[ButterflyBlood]

57. no

he wants Bush out. The only one dumb enough is Sharpton, who just wants attention.

[killbotfactory]

8. And maybe pigs will fly...

You never know... what with the way genetic research is going.

[wryter2000]

9. In a word, "no." eom

eom

[Caution]

10. HELL NO!

[Walt Starr]

11. Unfortunately, he won't run as a third party

Which, if he loses the nomination, might make for slim pickings for those of us who refuse to vote for one of the four who have blood on their hands.

[Upfront]

40. Walt

if you help he won't lose. Work hard for this man! He is what you have ben looking for all your life. Get on the train!

[Upfront]

13. Starrmounth

I am getting tired of your crap. Hell no, Dean has said he backs the winner, and that will be Dean. Your man gave a good speech today, why don't you want to talk about that? I will be on you like stink on shit from here on out! Understand that the rest of the world can see thorugh you in a glance.:puke:

[Starpass]

18. Upfront DEano---this isn't the Dean Website and there are a lot

of people who support other candidates and want info, etc. but they get the Deano gang bang and are getting sick of it. I'm transparent----let me dance in front of you-----I think Dean will get the shit whipped out of him in 50 states; so NO I won't sit here and do the Dean droan and praise and adoration and ring kissing. I will speak my piece. And if you keep harrassing people.....well, we have a button for that.

[Upfront]

33. No Respect

Star month I have no respect for you or your openion! Try, just one time to post somrthing about your man Kerry. Hell, I would like to read it. Kerry gave a good talk today, why are you so ashamed to talk about it?

[RetroLounge]

60. You want info, then go to the Dean Website and get it.

eMail them and ask.

Instead of slanted questions, innuendo, and hopeful thinking.

Sheesh, you've been bashing Dean 24-7 the past week.

Boring again...

"If Dean loses, will he stop beating his wife and eating babies?"

[UnapologeticLiberal]

14. No way

I highly doubt it...and i would be really upset if he did. He has said repeatedly that he will support whoever gets the nomination, and I can't imagine he would run as a third party candidate and reduce himself to a spoiler like Nader. It would be the end for him politically, and there is no reason for him or any of the other candidates to do that. If he were to run as a third party candidate I would probably have to vote for the Democrat, painful as it would be to vote against him. But I can't imagine it happening and besides, he is going to get the nomination so there is no point in even thinking about this! :D (I am just being optimistic...I still think it's a longshot.)

[Renew Deal]

15. He said no.

I have heard him say more than once that he would not.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

16. No, but I have had a few people ask me if he switched parties

If someone does not know who Dean is, I give them a little summary, and when I mention that he was governor of Vermont, I have had a few people say "oh, is he the one who switched parties?" I don't know why but I find that pretty amusing. It's like "okay, so you are paying a little attention. You have the right state, but the wrong person." :D

[BurtWorm]

17. No, Dean will not run as an independent.

Did McCain?

[depakid]

19. Give the anti-Dean baiting a rest

it's beginning to border on the obsessive.

From what I've read, you seem smart enough to know the answers the questions you're "posing," and the loaded language makes you sound even more disingenuous.

Mostly, I enjoy your posts, so would really be sad to see you become to Dean what jaicinto is to Nader.

[Starpass]

26. I didn't know the answer to the question because I don't follow Dean

I had no idea anyone asked him this or his answer. I honestly don't get up in the morning to adore Dean and worship at his alter. It's no more silly to ask my question than some of the rediculous shit I hear here about Kerry or Edward or anyone who is not Dean. Christ, some poster was just attacked because of posting an article about a court decision regarding Vermont---has to be a Dean bait thread, right??? There are going to be plenty of discussions raised by all the candidates regarding not only Bush but each other. God forbid anyone would ask or enquiry about Dean----how unAmerican of them----sounds like the right wingers to me.

[depakid]

34. Seems to me that you follow Dean plenty

and you seem to have more than enough knowledge to form a strong opinion about him and to (sometimes) capably defend your positions.

Asking sincere questions is one thing- but that doesn't seem to me to be the theme of this post or the one last night. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it. Some poeple I might give a pass on this, but you I'll call, because I suspect that you're good enough that if you were really interested, you could find credible answers any of your questions in less than 5 minutes.

I agree that there's ridiculous shit posted about almost all of the candidates, but posting even more ridiculous shit or using words like "worship" "alter" or (in your original post) "new Nader" doesn't help matters any.

[Upfront]

38. Some how

I wonder if you have any idea what you think, except, don't forget your motive, go Kerry, and screw all other democrats.

[Upfront]

42. Good God

Hey Star mouth do you have a democrat you like? I hope it is Kerry but I am thinking maybe it is Bush. You sound like a dumb ass rethug to me.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

55. Are you talking about this thread:

Christ, some poster was just attacked because of posting an article about a court decision regarding Vermont---has to be a Dean bait thread, right???

Are you talking about this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=1472

You know, the one where the person who posted the original post also said this on the same thread:

I actually supported the guy until I came here and saw the "supporters". Then I started looking at Dean closely, and I don't like what I see.

And this:

Because if they stick to the topic at hand, then there is some explaining to do; better to create a smokescreen to take away attention from anything negative.

So, this thread was admittedly posted to force Dean supporters to explain something "negative"... Even though a reading of the article shows that it was NOT negative at all, even though both the poster and the author of the article tried to make it sound negative...

Sounds like it would be perfectly reasonable for Dean supporters to "attack" - except they didn't.

[Forkboy]

58. "sounds like the right wingers to me."

that would be projection again.

[Nicholas_J]

20. Dean has made vague comments

About running until the end, even if he is not the nominee

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ryharrin]

25. I believe what he is referring to is that

he will not drop out of the primary race until the convention. Not exactly the same thing as what Nick was implying.

[Forkboy]

52. It rarely is

Not exactly the same thing as what Nick was implying.

[Walt Starr]

22. Link please

He has stated time and again he would not run as a third party candidate. I want a link to the quote you are citing or else we can safely dismiss it as inaccurate.

[CMT]

27. you know that is not true

he has been quite clear in stating he will support the democratic nominee and not run as an Independent. You hurt your cause by being so bitter.

[Ripley]

31. Why do I have my message deleted

when I called a liar a liar. While you simply state it more diplomatically and are allowed to stand?

[Upfront]

43. Hell Rip

Sense I am not a liar I assume your talking about Starbullshit.

[Ripley]

44. Wow there sure is a lot of name-calling going on.

No, not talking to you. My message above was removed because I called Nic a liar. He cannot give any proof that Dean said that.

Better watch the Star**** stuff...mods will delete you...

[JNelson6563]

65. Um, I am a Dean supporter

and you are dragging the level of dialogue even lower than the original post of this thread.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop the name calling. Let Starpass Dean bash, who cares? The MO is transparent and no one's view is changed regarding Dean--only that of the posters of such threads, and I don't mean in a postive way. Why join in that? If you must refute do it like an adult. The minute name calling starts he/she who does the name calling pretty much loses their credibility as far as I and many others are concerned.

Julie

[acerbic]

59. Those are the rules...

A smirking weasely liar can spam the same lies again and again relentlessly and you just have to be polite or risk getting banned.

[Cocoa]

39. that wasn't Dean

that was your candidate that said that.

Whoever it is that you support also made some vague comments about appointing George Bush to the Supreme Court if he became president.

[Upfront]

45. Bull Shit

Hey Nick you a joke, quit, time some one told you. My pleasure!

[MercutioATC]

56. No he hasn't. He HAS said that he won't bend to DLC pressure.

He has also clearly stated that he won't run as an independant.

ANOTHER misrepresentation by our favorite Dean basher.

[dansolo]

63. He said that he would until the convention

He was asked before he surged into the lead if he would bow out if he didn't win early primaries, and he responded that he intended to stick it out until the convention. But after the convention, if he was not the selected candidate, he said that he would support whoever was picked. His comments were not at all vague.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. He won't, but I have concerns that Kucinich might entertain it

I know Dean won't ever do that. He's made it clear he won't. Has Kucinich made any comments about this?

[Walt Starr]

24. If Dean loses the nomination to one of the bloody four

and Kucinich runs third party, he has my vote all sewn up.

[Upfront]

47. Now You Speak the Truth

You are no more a democrat then Bush. Hell, I would vote for your man Kerry in a heart beat over Bush. We have at last got you for what you are, a rethug at best!

[Starpass]

28. I never thought of Dennis; but if he does that would me a certain

percentage of the Dem vote lost - and we absolutely cannot withstand any of that right now.

[Walt Starr]

30. I doubt seriously if Kucinich would go third party

Attractive as that would be if one of the bloody four wins the nomination, I just don't see Kucinich doing it.

[Ediacara]

35. ya...

the 1.5% of the vote he's pulling in....

[CMT]

29. I'm certain DK won't

he will run for his seat in congress if not nominated for president.

[AP]

61. I doubt Kucinich would jeopardize his relationship with the Dem Party

that's getting him elected to Congress in Ohio.

[Ediacara]

32. stop being an ass

and go sit in the corner and think about how you can be a productive member of DU.

Dean has said probably over one thousand times he would not run as an independent.

End of discussion.

[hedda_foil]

36. Perhaps if you had kept up with DU....

for the past few months (as you mentioned in another thread that you had not) you would not have all these bizarre interpretations of Dean. It really would behoove you to read in more depth about how those of us who support the Gov got here instead of coming on throwing your wild punches as if we hadn't already been through this time and time again.

I, for one, checked out independently and IN DEPTH everything from his record and reputation in Vermont to the AIPAC rumors, to his family background, to the possibility that he had belonged to a Yale secret society before making any decision about him at all. I have a pretty damn good reputation on DU for the quality of my research, but it's not just me. The vast majority of the best damn researchers here (Khephra,Eloriel,DEMActivist and many others) are for Dean. We didn't get here by accident or by checking our scepticism at the door either before or AFTER deciding to back Dean. And we're not sorry in the least. In fact, Gov Dean and his incredible campaign team have consistently exceed our expectations.

Frankly, my dear, when it comes to Dean you don't know who or what you're talking about.

And before you ask, I'm 58, a director of a very influential Democratic organization in Cook County, Illinois, a Democratic Ward Chair, and my first campaign was for JFK.



You

[Upfront]

50. On The Mark

If we waste any more time on the Starmouths of this world , shame on us. I am in agreement, I support Dean, and I know why, he will beat Bush back to Texas. I am sure of it! It will be Dean and Clark. I told you first. lol:toast: :toast:

[Forkboy]

37. could you be just a little more transparent?

[clar]

41. No and you're wrong

Howard is a diehard Vermont dem tutored by the legendary Esther Sorell. He has made it clear that should someone else get the nomination he'll support that person.

Your ignorance regarding Vermont politics is showing.

BTW- I'm sure he can find something to do if he doesn't get the nod, perhaps take over from Terry M.

[uptohere]

46. it would not shock me

but he wouldn't have the money to do it. That would put a knife in it unless he was doing it to make 2008 his to lose.

[Le Taz Hot]

48. Oh look, more flamebait

by the usual suspects.

(To the Tune of "Another One Bites the Dust")
And another one's on Ignore.

<Flush>

[nomaco-10]

49. Her head has got to be getting sore....

from hitting it against a brick wall day after day after day.

[w4rma]

51. Dean: "I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee."

…
KING: New York City, as we go to some calls for Governor Howard Dean, hello.

CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on "Meet the Press." And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.
…
http://www.cnn.tv/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

Why couldn't have you done this research, Starpass, before making unfounded accusations?

[Forkboy]

53. Thats simple

Why couldn't have you done this research, Starpass, before making unfounded accusations?

Starpass has no real interest in the facts.

The sad part is I've enjoyed many of her posts here on DU but lately she seems to have just decided to use freeper tactics in blatantly obvious smear attempts.Like throwing Naders name in there to try to associate Dean with him...it's not even a good attempt,it just makes her look sad,uninformed,desperate and petty.

[prolesunited]

54. What fun would that have been?

You can't trust him anyway so it makes no difference what he said. :eyes:

[AP]

62. Dean: "I'm thinking about raising retirement age"

Dean: "I'm rethinking me position on accepting public money"

Dean definitely rethinks his position on issues as circumstances change.

The guy is definining himself in opposition to the Democratic party. It wouldn't be completely crazy for him to carry that on into the general election if the Democrats don't nominate him.

[depakid]

64. I'm thinking about raising the retirement age, too

along with a whole host of other things that may be necessary in order to have any form of recognizable social security or medicare WHATSOEVER after 2010. It would be foolish not to, in light of the current projections.

Like Dean, I also change my opinion on issues when circumstances change or when I've been presented credible evidence to warrant it. That's the mark of a critical thinker- and of someone who has the courage to admit when they may be wrong. On the other hand, to steadfastly hold a disproven or mistaken belief is the mark of an ideologue and a coward. Seems to me that we have all too many of those to go around in all three parties, don't you agree?

Dr. Dean is hardly defining himself in opposition to the Democratic party... if anything, the reverse is true- he's defining himself with the heart and vision of what the Democratic party used to be, before the corporate panderers sold their souls.