Insight into why we lost the election...

[IrateCitizen]

I found out my best friend from college and the best man from my wedding voted for Bush in this election (and he lives in PA). I was a little shocked, to say the least, but I just asked him flat out to answer me, "Why?" I think that his answer provides a good bit of insight into some pretty glaring deficiencies with the way our Democratic elites have run campaigns.

For the record, I have known this guy for the past 13 years, he is an intelligent guy, and while he doesn't immerse himself into politics as much as we do, he is relatively well-informed.

Here goes:

Regarding the election. First, I'm registered as an
independent as I have voted for Nader, Clinton, and
Bush in the last three elections. Sometimes I vote
for the candidate and sometimes I vote for the party.
To the contrary, sometimes I will vote against a
candidate or party. I voted for Bush based upon the
current direction of the Democratic party. I think
this election showed more than any in my voting years
that Democrats don't have a solid base on the larger
issues like interpretation (or re-interpretation) of
the Constitution and everything that goes along with
that. I thought Kerry ran a terrible campaign. I was
sick of hearing every piece of current news used by
Kerry as the next thing out of his mouth. I didn't
like that he used Vietnam the way he did. I didn't
like the way he took the most opposite view of Bush
(or so it seemed) and made it his own. I was hoping
for more substance from him. I did a decent amount of
research before I made my final decision. I was
against Bush on many things but I was against Kerry on
more things. In my opinion, this was the hardest
election choice I've made. I like to consider myself
more enlightened on the issues because now more than
ever I care about the issues. The war in Iraq is
probably the biggest issue. Whether or not you agree
with why we're there (I don't think we should be
there), I don't think changing a president in the
middle of it is a good thing and I don't think Kerry
had a clear vision either. I can truly say it was a
"sucky" decision but in the end, I think was the
lesser of two evils and that's saying a lot when Bush
is one of the choices.

I can't say I think he's very well informed on the Constitutional issues, but I think his email gives some good insight nonetheless. We expected people to vote Bush out just by giving an alternative to vote against Bush. But did we expect people to look at that alternative, and vote against the alternative by voting for Bush? It should show us that simply running campaigns on "We're not Republicans" isn't exactly an effective strategy.

Thoughts? Anyone know other people like this?

[trotsky]

1. He basically swallowed

everything that the RNC wanted him to.

Bush didn't say he was going to do ANYTHING - his campaign was all about attacking Kerry and scaring people.

[IrateCitizen]

11. So, you think his assessment of Iraq and Kerry was wrong?

I hate to say it, but his assessment of Iraq and Kerry was pretty damned accurate, IMHO. Kerry only said he would "do it right" without giving any specifics of HOW he was going to bring in the international community and such. Sure, he promised to open up reconstruction contracts -- but I still don't think the French or the Germans would have been too keen on sending troops there.

Sure, he swallowed plenty of RNC propaganda. I mentioned F-9/11 to him and he pretty much refused to go see it, saying he heard it was a "crockumentary".

The question is, what do we do in campaigns to counter these mistruths, and to appeal directly to moderates like my friend here? It's obvious that chasing their votes by sacrificing our core values doesn't work. It's obvious that simply saying, "We're not Republicans," won't work.

Does anyone else gain any insight into HOW we can use examples like this to form a winning strategy, or is it more self-congratulatory to instead talk about how "stupid" voters like this are and how much more enlightened all of us are?

[trotsky]

18. What the hell did * promise he would do in Iraq?

I am just wondering, why all this specific critiquing of the Kerry campaign but not *'s?

[IrateCitizen]

21. More of the same

I'm not saying that I agree at all with his assessment, but it's clear that there was a pretty big disconnect among certain segments of the voting population -- many of whom cannot be written off as Freepers and Fundies.

Kerry's stance, in a nutshell, seemed to be "more of the same, only smarter". Perhaps if he had simply denounced the invasion of Iraq (it didn't help that he had advisors like James Rubin going around saying that Kerry would've invaded Iraq) and set up a plan to bring our troops home, he might have provided a better alternative. But then he was also compromised in this regard by his "pragmatic" IWR vote. Being involved in the veterans movement against Iraq, I have to say that Kerry's statements on it left me mostly clenching my teeth and shaking my head.

[City Lights]

25. I'm wondering the same thing.

Once again the _chimp is held to a lower standard than the Democrat. I have a friend who did the same thing and found it very frustrating.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Why we lost: It's the STUPIDITY, stupid!

I think a case could be made that ignorance played at least as big a role in the election's outcome as values. A recent survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that nearly 70 percent of President Bush's supporters believe the U.S. has come up with "clear evidence" that Saddam Hussein was working closely with Al Qaeda. A third of the president's supporters believe weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq. And more than a third believe that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion.

From Monday's NYT OpEd page http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

In other words:
15%: Concerned with progress in Iraq
19%: Want toughness on terrorism
20%: Worried about the economy
22%: Support Legislating Moral Issues
70%: Dumb as a fucking post

[Options Remain]

4. we didn't loose the election

n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

5. I'm still waiting for your prediction to be realized.

[kysrsoze]

10. Precisely. I'm not falling for the latest RNC talking point: Elitism

Screw those people if they choose not to research anything or educate themselves. If you trust in 'God and government' or gut feelings to work for you, you're a fool. The attitude of, "Well, we're there and we can't change captains in the middle of a game" only reinforces the current administration's ability to not be held accountable for anything they do wrong.

DON'T apologize to him for his ignorance.

[salin]

3. I don't get the lesser of two evil vote

going for bush .... the dude who lied us into iraq, the dude whose advisors have advised against the constitution on multiple counts and have been turned back by conservative justices, don't get the break down of logic at the very end.

[havocmom]

6. There are voters who vote against their own interests, but we lost because

THEY COUNTED THE VOTES, whether the votes were there or not

[soleft]

7. All due respect for your friend, he doesn't sound well informed at all

[aquart]

8. He's irrelevant.

He voted for Bush last time. This is a bedrock Bush vote. It doesn't explain the pickup of 8 million votes in any way.

Oh, and the man is an idiot, but that's just MHO.

[IrateCitizen]

16. No, he actually voted for Nader last time

He's hardly a "bedrock Bush vote". But then again, what do I know -- he's only a friend I've had for the past 13 years. You're probably right -- he's a pure Bush voter, through and through.... :eyes:

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. Caller on C-Span this morning

gave another insight. Caller from Ohio said he is a registered Democrat and he voted for Bush. The reason? Because he felt that if Kerry were elected, all that would do would be to blame the whole mess in Iraq on him and he wanted Bush to be there to take full credit.

So, in essence, it was to save Kerry and the Democrats.

Not saying his POV is right or wrong. But it does bring some insight if more voters thought along the same lines. Kind of a make them accountable thing.

[salin]

14. yet... this ignores the huge damage inflicted in the first

four years... and the likely accelerated damage of the next... so save ourselves but have a much larger hole to dig out of? Not logical.

[sister moon]

19. That is the only upside to this entire debacle.

Now that Bush and his minions have made their bed it is THEY who must lie in it. Perhaps there is a small measure of justice in this world.

[TomClash]

12. ???

Kerry specifically laid out an alternative on most issues. This guy says he opposed most of those alternatives, though he is not very specific about it. Then he goes on to say that changing Presidents in the middle of a war is not a good thing. Frankly, there really wasn't much Kerry could do about that. People like this guy wanted a "tough" policy rather than a smart one.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Webster Green]

13. I stopped reading when I read that he voted for bush...

I don't care what the asshole thinks!

[Rex]

15. Stupid reasons - my aunt & uncle did the same thing

voted for Bush because (as if there is any logic in the argument) you don't change Presidents in the middle of a war. Um, first off - WE AIN'T AT FUCKING WAR! If so then we have MANY wars going on all at once - war on drugs, war on poverty, war on terror etc. My, how we Americans LOVE to make war!

Your friend just voted for the Giggling Murderer, with friends like that...

[bambo53]

17. It's just like golf

The more you play it and study every technical aspect of it, the worse you get... because you've completely forgotten the simplicity of just playing YOUR game like you know it.

[JudyM]

20. He'd rather hear the same droning than new ideas?

<I was sick of hearing every piece of current news used by
Kerry as the next thing out of his mouth>

[IrateCitizen]

23. He's not referring to new ideas here...

He's referring to the way that the Kerry campaign would seize upon every piece of news that was detrimental to the President, and that would become the "theme of the day" for the campaign.

[JudyM]

41. Right, but seems implicitly he liked Bush's choice of topics better

which, to me, seemed like redundant droning without reference to any current events - it was all about kerry not being a strong leader, and a MA liberal... Kerry at least was responding to some very interesting news. Just my reaction to your friend's comment, and a pet peeve of mine in observing the news all those months.

[ibegurpard]

22. I think you're friend's email shows

that intelligent, reasonably well-informed people are just as susceptible to propaganda as the ignorant. Peppered among his words were several of the right-wing talking points that were blasted on all of the media fronts throughout the election? Does anyone need any more proof of what a lock they have on the public discourse? E-mails like this show it very clearly.

[IrateCitizen]

28. Yes, that's very true

He refused to see F-9/11, because he said he had heard it was a "crockumentary". I think that it was David Horowitz that referred to it in that way.

He's detached from many of these issues, that's for sure. But the average voter out there doesn't view things through the same prism that we do -- how it will affect the wider world -- but rather through a bubble of their immediate surroundings.

The question I'm wanting to find the answer to is, How do we counter all of these things and actually start winning? It's obviously bigger than just money or propaganda, because we were on equal financial footing with the Republicans this election, and we succeeded in GOTV efforts, and we still lost.

[pberq]

40. media

What about the lock the right wing has on the media and of course the giant propaganda network of FOX?

I was listening to Al Franken the other day and he was talking about how Hannity et. al. are able to put out the most vile lies day after day without being called on it.

I would like to see a network created that puts Randi Rhodes and others out there -- TV is still the most powerful medium at this point.

[sweetheart]

24. rationalizing treason

Its a civil war, and your mate wants to wear a grey uniform, along
with so many others. We wearing the blue are under duress, and
so many rationalizations sound good.

Surely were we in the middle of the first civil war, in antietem
or somewhere, we could equally argue whether lincoln made much sense
sending american sons to kill other american sons.... when perhaps
the issue of slavery of another far away had little impact on some
of those drafted to fight.

"The wish begets the thought." Your friend wanted to vote bush,
and made up a convenient reason. My mother did the same.
I don't care her reason. I won't speak to her for a few years
while she lives with her choice.

[Cat Atomic]

26. Your friend doesn't seem well-informed to me. Still,

it is interesting to see why some people voted for Bush. I've had some similar experiences myself, with similar answers from Bush supporters.

On the whole, they don't seem to focus on any real issues. They just repeat some talking point or "official" opinion. "Don't change presidents in wartime", or "Kerry didn't stand for anything", or "he was a flip-flopper".

Their opinions are more illustrative of media bias than any solid political problem, in my humble opinion.

[IrateCitizen]

29. OK, if that's the case, then media bias IS a political problem...

so long as it keeps us from being able to win an election or advance our agenda.

How do we get around it?

[RyomaSakamoto]

35. BECOME the MEDIA and FIGHT BACK

thank GORE he 'invented' the internet :bounce:

[RyomaSakamoto]

27. FRAUD-n-FEAR

http://www.verifiedvoting.org

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[ayane-chan]

30. Your friend is one of the dumbest people....

If he thinks that Kerry lacked substance...! The nerve!

[mom cat]

31. We did not lose...the election was stolden. nt.

[Just Me]

32. A failure to effectively communicate and villainize the real villains.n/t

[skypilot]

33. I'm sorry, but everything...

...and I mean EVERYTHING your friend said sounds exactly like what the Republican side was saying during the campaign. You posted it as though it would give us some new insight but frankly it all sounds very familiar.

[RyomaSakamoto]

34. NPR's Ira Glass Interview with the BRAINWASHED -----------------> mp3

http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/airAmericaRadio.com/morning_sedition/ira-glass_bush-bot.mp3

psst... pass the word ;->

[MISSDem]

36. I repeat, in every election someone has to lose. We

only lost by 2 1/2 percent. We did nothing wrong. We just need to get more people to the polls.

[abbadon]

37. thoughts? - unplug his TV, for a start

he seems to have bought the big ol' 10-gallon SAMS Club Kool-Aid, and even looked under the label to find the secret message

if he really did any "research," I wouldn't say it was a "decent amount" - sounds like be basically watched Fox & Friends AND read Hannity's blog

or maybe just he passed along an astroturf chain letter, "'cause it says exactly how I feel"

did he go to any Kerry rallies and observe the way things were done, or volunteer in the K/E campaign? - how else did he decide that the campaign was so poorly-run? - has he ever participated in a campaign? - and by "participated," I mean, going door-to-door, or handing out brochures, or silk-screening yard and car-top signs and distributing them, or manning phone banks, or any of the 1000 other tasks that go into a "campaign" - watching TV and reading a few blogs is not the way you get wise to what makes a good campaign (except with regard to what you see on TV and read in the blog(s))

p.s. I also sometimes like to consider myself as something I'm obviously not - an emu, or an ancient Pict - but the whimsy usually fades quickly, before I embarrass myself in public

[merh]

38. Did you ask him how he came by his news and understanding

of what Kerry stood for?

What he told you is a total spin of what the facts were. It was * that seized on Kerry's ideas and platforms, made them his own and then attacked Kerry for no plan.

[CWebster]

39. Hey, I didn't like it either but

the solution is to vote for Bush?

Sorry, IC, he may be your buddy, but only a stupid white male would do that.

but your right, is it asking for too much for the Democrats to promote a candidate as something more than "not Bush"?