Could The United States Fall?

[arwalden]

Could our country totally come unglued and disintegrate? The Soviet Union fell, the Roman Empire fell... so why not the United States?

I wonder what would trigger such a thing.

[NVMojo]

1. I hope so, it could be for the best.

but I think the repukes have wanted this to happen so they could step in and draw up the plans of operation for their new government.

[Mizmoon]

2. This is how the world ends

Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

We will spend ourselves to death and be unable to maintain this massive monster of a military we have created.

BTW, can you eat a tank?

[sweetheart]

19. Empires collapse from bankruptcy and ossification

The last global empire that the US apes (british), collapsed for
bankruptcy and the huge tab it ran up in WW2 (America did not help
for free, britain went bankrupt in the process.) As well, returning
soldiers from WW1 & 2 demanded fair share given the lives spent,
and the socialism of those wars changed britain totally.

I expect the debt to degenerate the US status until the foreign
posturing of the army is unsustainable and it comes home to the
borders. As for a furthur breakup, that'll probably come to a head
at that point, as there will be no "foreign" enemy to artificially
united the intensely divided population... and then likely a
pakistan/india split, where fundamentalists hole up in the red
states with their mullahs.

Then we can fight lotsa border wars and whatnot as the states
break up and regroup in to their own nations. Likely at that point
the monroe docrine will be gone, and then other world powers will
start to ally and develop the american nations, that some others
will exceed North American quality of life, and the whole western
continent will start down the road that old europe followed after
the middle ages with various states vying for regional influence.

Still, i doubt that the US will face any foreign invader for
1000 years.... presuming hawaii becomes independent after the
collapse, and alaska as well a semi-autonomous region of canada.

Bankruptcy... you can't eat a tank... indeed.

[Beetwasher]

20. Corporal Klinger Ate An Army Jeep Once

Does that count?

[Mizmoon]

30. He was bucking for a section 8

Oh, that Kilinger! Good think Hawkeye was there to talk some sense into him!

[liberalpress]

24. It's the end of the world as we know it

It's the end of the world as we know it

It's the end of the world as we know it.

And I feel fine

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. Not even a question to me anymore... just a matter of when... and

think about this... there is no "America" anymore. There is Exxon, Mobil, GE, Bechtel, Halliburton... and that is just about it. Borders and nationalistic sentiments are a thing of the past. It's government of the corporations, by the corporations for the corporations. This is not a healthy state of affairs for ANY democracy.... and so it goes.

[complain jane]

4. Romans tried to build a *cough cough* empire,

like the neocons are now (http://www.pnac.us)

[H2O Man]

5. No, of course not!

20,000 years from now, the USA will still be here.

Okay, now to be serious: yes, it can easily go in the same direction as all other empires have done. That involves over-extending its resources in an effort to control lands far from its borders. There are also serious dangers in running up the dept while allowing other outside interests to invest heavily within the country. By no small coincidence, this administration is doing both of these.

Further, if one considers the destruction of a constitutional democracy from within, surely this administration poses the most extreme threat in our history.

[H2O Man]

6. Actually, Pat Buchanan

has authored a good book on this, "A Republic, Not an Empire."

[H2O Man]

7. duplicate

sorry

[Mike03]

8. I think it can happen

In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" Paul Kennedy set forth an argument that nations that overspend and pursue a course of military imperialism/colonialism in the absence of fiscal credibility do fall. What could trigger it? I don't think it's a single event but a chain reaction, but right now I'm watching the Euro challenge the Dollar. Some economists believe that if the Euro could supplant the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency, that would be the end of U.S. hegemony. Some people believe that's farfetched, and others believe it's inevitable.

[DinahMoeHum]

9. Yes, economically. . .through debt and the brain drain. . .

We're already a debtor nation, and other countries are starting to pull their assets out of the US.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a brain drain out of here, either; many research scientists and entrepreneurs leaving the US for more socially-tolerant countries like the UK or the Netherlands.

Education and children. The society that does not value education and children will fall behind in this economic arms race.

:evilfrown:

[Mizmoon]

13. it's not just because other nations are tolerant

if the most interesting scientific work is done elsewhere, the scientists will follow.

The UK leads in stem cell research, something we've barely touched due to our religious freaks.

[DinahMoeHum]

32. That is precisely why California passed that stem-cell initiative.

:kick:

[IrateCitizen]

10. Of course not! We're different from all those others in history!

Stop being so anti-American! America is the greatest country in the history of the world, and always acts in the best interest of the world, whether they realize it or not, so stop spreading lies to the contrary!

</sarcasm>

America is already on its downward slide. We are overstretched militarily, and our economy is being buried under ballooning national debt and trade deficits. Perhaps most importantly, our drive for empire and withdrawl from international obligations/treaties is resulting in making the US a pariah among much of the rest of the industrialized world at precisely the moment when we need the rest of the world most.

I would suggest you read the following for some good analyses of this phenomenon:
After the Empire by Emmanuel Todd
The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson
Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillips

[High Sierra Buck]

11. Could it, yes, will it, I doubt that, however....

We are still a young country who has suffered very less in civil wars so that may be something that eventually comes. Right now we are again going through growing pains as all countries do. Will we survive, yes. Will it ba painful, a little. Will things changes, they always do.

[Art_from_Ark]

12. Take a look at this Bible verse:

Obadiah 1:4 "Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD." (King James Version)

Now take a look at the reverse of the Eisenhower and Anthony dollars:

http://www.usmint.gov/kids/images/campCoin/1971Eisenhower$1_rev.gif

[eataTREE]

26. I always liked that verse.

The Lord is gonna take thee down. The Lord is gangsta, who knew?

Verily, the lord shall layeth the smack down upon thine ass.

[YNGW]

14. Who's under the impression it will last forever?

Of course it will fall. I'm not aware of any country since the beginning of time that's hasn't fallen. It's just a matter of how, when, and what will happen. I personally believe it will happen within the next 100-150 years and that the country will splinter into smaller countries along the order of Europe.

[lawladyprof]

15. We could/could have escaped the wheel of history

If we had conquered/overcome the "sins" of humanity, cruelty, tribalism (linked to hatred and hubris, intolerance of difference), and greed/selfishness. It was/is the only way. These characteristics have doomed every nation/state and were themselves the undoing of Communism.

[Mike03]

18. Well put, and can I add

"arrogance" to that list. The belief that we cannot fail, or are too big to fail, is what brought down a number of large banks in the 80s and 90s. We have been dependent upon the good will of the European and Asian nations to keep us afloat while we run up ludicrous fiscal imbalances and hopeless deficits, but that good will is drying up.

[mmonk]

16. Yes

Anytime you try the empire route, the risk becomes high.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Any country can. Even if it doesn't dissolve completely it could

evolve into something else.

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Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. It's happening now.

No common interest, no common interpretation of the constitution. And the constitution, not the bible, is what will keep us together.

What scares me Arwalden, is that if the right begins a civil war with guns, as you know they will because they can't help themselves, our true enemies will not sit idle by and wait until the dust settles.

Don't underestimate the right's desire for blood. I overhead the child of a Republican Southern baptist tell my child, "My dad says that we come from people that killed people." (She meant Vikings} and she said it defiantly. I tried to keep the tone down and I said, "Yeah, well we come from people who pee on your lettuce every day."

I really, really want to get out of the red states. I'm tired of living among the Christian Vikings.

[Laelth]

22. You bet it can.

The nation-state will probably remain for many, many years to come. But it looks like the republic (democracy in the US) is already dead, or very nearly dead.

-Laelth

[Meshuga]

23. The current deficits can lead to the fall

Running deficits and not having a plan to address the record deficits can lead to trouble and the US might be going torwards not being a superpower any longer.

I am very scared that this administration is going to ruin this country quicker than expected.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. I don't even own any tin foil

but I have come to believe it will happen eventually. Too many factors pointing in that direction and not a single one of them have to do with gay marriage, but rather corporate fascism, the monster we call the military industrial complex, and the increasing disregard for human lives past the embryonic stage.

Corruption and cronyism in government on all levels is rampant and blatant.

The fourth estate (free press) is on life support.

I don't know when. But yeah, I have the feeling, barring some kind of big revolution to turn things around, our little experiment will come to an end.

[RPM]

39. Riddle me this...

Corporations have perpetual life, legally; but functionally, they need human life as production and, most importantly, consumption units.

Should the US descend into a state of protracted civil strife, can any corporation (save those in the military complex) survive? As much as corporations (and business in general) depend on human invlovement, they also depend on stability. Why, stability allows decisions to be made and executed upon. However, since the current upheaval began 4 years ago with Y2K and continuing through 9/11 and last week's election, business has seemeingly been hamstrung from making serious investment, despite historically low rates - all this with a minimal level of terror threat, relatively (as compred to the Great Depression) low domestic unemployment, and little domestic disturbance. What happens if any, or all, of these factors get upped a little bit? My guess, the bankrupting and failure of many corporations.

What doesnt fall there, gets mopped up by Peak Oil, when consumption drops because of lack of incomes and lack of transportation forces the global economy to go local. Unlikely that a large unwieldy corporation could manage 10000 small local plants instead of 10 regional plants. Even if they could, modern corporations have become so leveraged that they wouldnt survive a heavy downturn. Just some thoughts on teh future of the economy....

[Bucky]

27. No. No way. No matter how bad Bush is, we're tougher.

A good car can withstand the abuse of a bad driver for a real long time. I think we can take it. But we can't ignore the problems forever.

[knight_of_the_star]

31. A good car

Can't withstand being totalled by said bad driver, and Bush has the very real possibility of doing that.

[Javaman]

28. All nations fall. The larger more powerful nations...

have reverberations for centuries. After the fall of the Roman empire the known world fragmented. Look at the Soviet Union, very similar. And it will happen to us. Like all empires, it erodes from within. The various outside forces that oppose it, merely chip away at the structure, it's the failure of the government to listen or take care of it's populations wellbeing that begins the erosion. The over reaching of military operations that drain the social economy, or the occupation of unfriendly lands (are occupied lands really ever friendly) which in turn leads to the social upheaval of questioning our governments true motivations, thus weakening it's power to govern.
Personally, I think we began to witness this trend in the mid to late 1950's. The first obvious example is our full involvement in Viet Nam. The US has alway been a quest nation. Questing to conquer for the sake of good. Good being defined either as for the nation or for the governments operations. Upon the failure of a quest, this leads naturally to questioning of our motives. Thus began the long slow slide: the mistrust of our governments motivations. As our various quests become more and more obtuse and are based upon a thinly defined good, meaning; having to explain why invading Iraq was a good thing when it was obviously not a threat to our safety, only results in a playing field in which our government operates becoming more and more tenuous to define. The American public is not so easily duped. Although Mr. * received 59 million votes, he also received 56 million against. It's the polarization of the population that leads to the discontent of the overall population. If two parties disagree, then it's fair to say that one party isn't happy that the other disagrees, obvious yes, but this also means that the hope of a compromise is greatly reduced. As the general population becomes unstable, polarized and beliefs become more extreme, the power of the government to control the future of the nation becomes more difficult.
This erosion will continue if left unchecked. With our current state of affairs, it doesn't look hopeful that things will get better and the slide will continue.

[mopaul]

29. every society there ever was fell

even though some lasted a thousand years or more, nobody, or no society is permanent. rome is the current model for crumbling america

[the Princess]

33. Yes absolutely

Once we *Offically* become a dictatorship - watch how quick the country disintigrates.

For the record - we are already a Facist state quickly on our way to Dictatorship.

[donheld]

34. If Gravity is a law then yes it could

what goes up must come down. They say the bigger they are the harder they fall. I believe we're falling now.

[Cleita]

35. It may not be the worst thing.

We have been too powerful for too long and we all know that absolute power corrupts. Look at what is happening?

[votekerryin04]

36. has anyone

heard a rumor about a post election bin laden tape with him stating the next 4 years will be hell for america or was it just a rumor i heard?

[votekerryin04]

37. has anyone

heard a rumor about a post election bin laden tape with him stating the next 4 years will be hell for america or was it just a rumor i heard?

[bemildred]

38. We are going the way of the USSR.

Iraq is our Afghanistan.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. The gangrene is spreading. Soon the corpse will require burial.

Not "could", but how long before the diseases of greed and power and hubris consume the body and it expires. It already stinks.

[Baja Margie]

41. It's already happening.

[DrWeird]

42. Where have you been the past four years?

nt

[spanone]

43. A second bush* term?

[m berst]

44. we are watching it happen

I wonder if people in the Soviet Union or in the Roman Empire realized what was happening at the time.

[Hubert Flottz]

45. Re:I wonder what would trigger such a thing.

What happend last week!