A Fundie Finally Explains: No Biblical Commandment Against Lying

[elehhhhna]

"Now, which of the Ten says "Thou shalt not lie" . I forgot. Perhaps you can remind me. Now that we have established that it's OK to lie, at least according to the Jews , perhaps you can show me where in that Christian Bible of yours it says that you can't lie. I think , in fact, Jesus tells his deciples that it is necessary to lie. Forget the passage but I'm sure you know it. All that Jesus required is that you always place the Good above the Truth and if you must lie to get that done so be it..." *

Finally, the truth about lying can be told! I suspected they had some justification for their hypocricy--now we have it. It's not one of the 10 Commandments (or "The 7 Commandments and 3 Voluntary Initiatives", as I like to call them...) How simple! How sublime! ~ Elehhhna

*from another, unmoderated board

[NVMojo]

1. there is one about "thou shalt not bear false witness"

against your neighbor...

[hlthe2b]

4. Yes... even my very weakly remembered childhood teachings....

brought that one right back...

Good, God.... they really are hypocrites, in the worst manner possible.

[zeemike]

24. And that is very different than a lie

To bear false withnes is the commandment not the lie.
If you tell a lie about someone then it is bearing false witness against him.
When bush told the lie that Saddam had WMD it was not the lie that was wrong but the bearing of false witness against Saddam. can you see the difference?
Just like it is not money at the root of all evil, but it is the love of it that causes one to negatively affect your neighbor.
The sin is in the action against another person that is negative and has negative consequences.

[merh]

33. They don't know what that means...

It does not come out and say "thou shalt not lie" so they haven't a clue. :shrug: They are so dense!

[Ducks In A Row]

55. But it doesn't say "lie"

remember fundies can do the same thing they tell others not to, as long as they call it something else.


Look at bush**

He says he won't privatize social security, but if he calls it "reforming social security", he can privatize it always


He isn't going to be bring back the draft, but when he calls the draft something else then he can bring it back.


fundies are liar and cowards

[ClassWarrior]

2. Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Sounds like lying to me.

NGU.

[tanyev]

3. 8th Commandment?

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor?


Maybe there's a special fundie set of commandments with which I am not familiar.

[Philostopher]

5. I think they replaced it.

With something about cheese nachos and sporting events.

[htuttle]

6. This further reinforces my belief that the Fundies invented a new religion

They call it 'Christianity', but come'on! They've discarded or lessened the importance of the main teachings of their savior (ie., the Beatitudes where he spells it all out), instead devising new exceptions to their own Ten Commandments (ie., it's OK to kill sometimes, it OK to lie sometimes).

They pick and choose among the older books, emphasizing Leviticus, included a bunch of apochryphal nonsense of dubious origin in Revelations, and added on a WHOLE BUNCH of crap that sort of appeared out of nowhere, like the rapture stuff.

I just wish they'd have come up with a different name for it. It would be far less confusing.

ON EDIT:

I want to emphasize that I'm not kidding. This is how new religions are actually born. They almost always split off from old ones, no matter how the religions' history ultimately comes to explain it (like finding books of golden pages buried in the backyard, etc...)

[MemphisTiger]

9. The worst thing is that they don't think they are lying...

Some of them live in their own dream world where they do not answer to mans law only to Gods law.

[htuttle]

12. I dub them 'Leviticans'

There's a new name for their new religion.

Not sure it fully captures their apocalyptic weirdness, though.

[phylny]

44. Interestingly enough, the Hassidic Jews are Leviticans.

They practice everything that's in Leviticus.

[G_j]

22. that is also what I think

they have invented a completely new religion. I suppose you might even call it "new age" :-)
If "Christianity" is what this is now called, those who follow the original teachings of Jesus are not really "Christians" anymore it would seem.

[Inland]

7. I have said that the rightwing KNEW Bush was a lying failure

and yet, it didn't bother them, why?

1)For the rightwing christians--God justifies voting for a lying failure if it will stop the abomination of abortion and gay sex.

2)For the rightwing protofascists--lies keep the country unified behind the Great Man and telling the truth about war will give the weakings ammunition against the great leader.

That's why Bush and Cheney could lie their asses off and nobody in their camp would call it. I mean, Cheney calls the Iraq strategy brilliant, and the crowd still applauds. They aren't so stupid. They don't care. They believe that a lying fraud is a man of the times.

[shaolinmonkey]

8. I find this passage both ignorant and disturbing:

"All that Jesus required is that you always place the Good above the Truth and if you must lie to get that done so be it"

I thought the words of Jesus were the Truth and were Good. Isn't there a passage in John that reads "seek the truth and it shall set you free"?

I think this re-enforces the fact that many fundamentalists lack fundamental knowledge of Jesus and his teachings. Irony, thy name is fundie.

[vetwife]

11. All liars shall find their place in the lake of fire? What bible are

they reading?

[Sara Beverley]

21. I haven't seen that in my Bible.

I'll get the passages from both the Old and New Testaments that talk about 'lying.' I know there is one that says lists lying as one of the 7 things God hates. Also, since they want to excuse lying what do they say about abortion? Can't find that anywhere in the Bible. The only thing that comes close is a description of someone "spilling his seed." (Now we all know what the means. I men can "spill their seed" and it's considered taking life?) This is why it is a dangerous thing to use religion to justify evil. To me, religion should always be used to inspire "good" "justice" "peace" and "love."
Otherwise, who needs it?

[NashVegas]

27. Perhaps It's Just a Result of My Catholic Schooling

But I always got the idea from my indoctrination that God (big G) is the truth. Or was supposed to be.

[Trillo]

40. No wonder they're all sinners. nt

[phylny]

43. A new name that I'm trying on for size for them is

"Convenience Store Christians".

[pdx_prog]

45. That's a good one....

[phylny]

62. Thanks. My rationale is that "Convenience Store Christians"

pick whatever verse or interpretation they need, no matter what the cost.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. That's the Moonie influence!

No, really.

The Unification Church is notorious for its practice of "heavenly deception," the doctrine that any lie is okay if it's for the greater glory of the Moonie cause.

One minor but significant manifestation of this doctrine is that their front groups, such as the Washington Times or CAUSA or CARP, do not admit their affiliation unless pressed hard. Contrast this with other religious groups: The Christian Science Monitor, Catholic Charities, Lutheran World Relief, B'nai Brith, all of whom are proud of their affiliations.

Given the close ties between the Moonies and the Republican party, it makes sense.

[louis-t]

61. "greater glory of the Moonie cause"

I remember being solicited by a fundie selling duffle bags for some religious cause, saying they were "real...llama...skin" (just the way he said it). Almost like if he said it r-e-a-l s-l-o-w it wasn't really a lie. Even had a tag on it that said llama. Oh, by the way, as soon as I opened the bag and saw the vinyl backing, I knew it wasn't llama.

[skypilot]

10. Makes you wonder just how knowledgeable...

...they are about their faith--or maybe I should say their "faith". I'm not terribly religious but the Commandment about "bearing false witness" immediately popped into my head. Every fucking thing about these people is shallow, including their president.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Unreal.

------------------------------------------------------------
Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[RPM]

14. 2 things

1) There is the matter of false witness

2) Lying could be stealing in a number of contexts
- Fraud
- Stealing the truth from someone who otherwise wouldnt know

[Roxy66]

15. Where did you hear this...Link

[Tesibria]

16. Your Fundie isn't reading the Fundie Bible very carefully.

1) It is TRUE that the Commandment about "bearing false witness" against your neighbor is not a prohibition against lying generally -- it is a specific prohibition about slandering/libelling your neighbors. Common misperception that the 10 commandments prohibits lying. It does not.

HOWEVER, for prohibtion against lying, see

Matthew 5:37: Let your "yes" mean "yes" and your "no" mean "no." Anything more is from the evil one.

Context: The Old Testament practice of grating an oath to guarantee truthfulness, by calling upon God as a witness. Jesus said -- just tell the truth. Oath-taking presupposes that you tupically lie. Jesus demanded that his disciples just tell the truth ALL the time, which made taking oaths WHEN they were telling the truth unnecessary.

(I was a GREAT fundie when i was a kid -- I had these books MEMORIZED. seriously. This fundie is -- an uneducated fundie.)

There are more -- I can get them if you want them for "ammo"

------------------
"Rage" store: www.cafepress.com/tesibria.com
blog: www.democracyiscoming.com (explains purpose of rage store)

[flobee1kenobi]

25. I just find it funny

that these assholes see no problem in picking and choosing passages that support their way of thinking and ignore the rest. God hates gays, but lying is ok-Abortion is wrong, but killing for the good of the country is acceptable. Its like breaking the speed limit only when you are in a hurry and wondering why the officer is giving you a ticket

[JudyM]

53. ... if only we could give them a ticket nt

[GreenArrow]

49. question

regarding your number 1:

Who is thy neighbor?

[Sara Beverley]

17. I think in one of Jewish religous doctrines they are required to lie to

gentiles. I don't believe it's in the Torah but something called the Talmud or Talmond? Is this true?

[htuttle]

23. No

[JudyM]

50. No - that's not true.

[sir_captain]

58. Don't you think

it's a bad idea to spread ideas like that about an historically scapegoated people when you a) don't have any idea what you're talking about and b) don't even have a clue what the various Jewish religious documents are called?

I mean, come on now.

[Tesibria]

18. Re: Jesus saying it's ok to lie.

Re: "Jesus tells his deciples {sic} that it is necessary to lie. Forget the passage but I'm sure you know it. All that Jesus required is that you always place the Good above the Truth and if you must lie to get that done so be it..."

This is ABSOLUTELY untrue. there is NO passage where Jesus advocates - or permits - telling a lie.

[progdonkey]

26. They're confusing Jesus with Nietzsche...

or perhaps Machiavelli.

Explains a lot.

[ET Awful]

34. That's why he forgets the passage :)

It's hard to remember something that doesn't exist. n/t

[Carolinian]

19. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

[qanda]

20. Try these...

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ps 101:7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

[mamalone]

28. Try this one on for size...

"There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to Him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissention among brothers.
Proverbs 6:16-19

Geee whiz folks, sound like anyone we know?????
Diane

[elehhhhna]

29. 6 things God hates, and 7 are detestable? Flip-flop? ; > )

[mamalone]

51. LOL! nt

nt

[morcatknits]

30. Scripture Picking

I've never heard that articulated before, even by fundamentalists. They do base their beliefs on the scriptures that support them, and ignore others. They will use one scripture, sometimes mangling it's meaning, and consider that sufficient to prove a point. It is called "proof-texting." I can't even think of any scripture that would support lying, though.
morcatknits

[China_cat]

57. We call them 'salad bar christians'

[zeemike]

36. Wow, they are guilty of all seven n/t

[phylny]

42. Diane, this passage is now my new sig line for e-mails and usenet.

By George, it's GEORGE!

Thanks for posting it.

[mamalone]

54. My pleasure..

Believe it or not, that was in my regular Bible reading for today...it just blew me away. God has always aligned himself with the oppressed and against the powerful. I think He must be getting pretty ticked right about now at all that is being done "in His name".
Diane

[phylny]

63. A phrase of a song we used to sing came to my mind today, appropriate.

I used to chaperone youth retreats, and we would sing several songs throughout the weekend. The phrase that stuck in my head today:

What does the Lord require of you,
what does the Lord require of you?

To seek justice
and love kindness
and walk humbly with your God.

[bmbmd]

64. That comes from Micah 6:8

"He hath shown thee, O man, what is good. And what doth the Lord require of thee? But to love mercy, and to do justly, and to walk humbly with thy God."

My favorite scripture.

[phylny]

65. Yes it does :) n/t

[GreenArrow]

52. great!

I'll be sure to memorize this one.

[newyawker99]

59. Hi mamalone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ET Awful]

31. Let your yes mean yes, and your no no or you will be condemned

James 5:12

Matthew 5:37 –“Simply let your yes be yes and your “ No no. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one. This is the Lord speaking to all of us!

Romans 1:29 refers to deceit and states "they which do such things are worthy of death"

Revelations 21:27 includes "those who maketh a lie" among those who will be denied entrance to heaven.

Revelations 22:14-15 Also says that "those who loveth and maketh a lie" will not be allowed entry to heaven.

I'm not even a religious person and I can find these, your fundie buddy needs to actually read the bible. The generally accepted teaching is that in the eyes of God, a lie and a murder are equal offenses.

Of course it's also worth reminding them that the reason Lucifer (Satan) was cast out of heaven was for lying.

[Sugarbleus]

67. Excellent find/comeback.. wtg.!!

I used to tell my hubby (in jest)"You'll go to hell for lying just the same as for stealin'"

[Stephanie]

32. Also, Leo Strauss advocated lying

So the neo-cons let themselves off the hook.

[BrotherBuzz]

39. And never mind that worshipping false idols bit, too!

Nobel lie, my ass!

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. The Devil is the Father of Lies

John 8:44 (Jesus's own words):

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

(Disclaimer: I am an atheist, but it takes about a minute on a bible website to find Jesus condemning lying. It's not hard; he was one for the truth, and didn't hold back about it).

[zeemike]

38. See, even atheist can prove them ignorant n/t

[Sugarbleus]

68. Well Done Muriel!!...glad to know ya =o) n/t

[LibInternationalist]

37. ...except for that commandment against lying

[struggle4progress]

41. A fundie who can't even read well enough to read his Bible. eom

[Cleita]

46. You shall not bear false witness to your neighbor.

This is what we were taught in Catechism. God forbids lying with this commandment. It means you should not lie about your neighbor, nor lie period, by logical extension of the commandment. The catechism also breaks it down between venial sins (little white lies) and mortal sins(telling whoppers), especially where your lies lead to harm.

[Straight Shooter]

47. "Cherry tree Christians"

Adam and Eve had the apple tree *cough* and Bubba and Marge have the cherry tree. They pick their scripture, and spit out the seed of truth.

These cherry tree christians can say whatever they want, the only commandment they follow is "The ends shalt justify thy means." I was once a Christian, or tried my best to be in following the teachings of Jesus, but the intolerance and hypocrisy amongst my brethren was so staggering and suffocating I couldn't breathe. I had to get out. There is truly nothing sacred to a cherry tree christian.

[seabeyond]

48. wow mohommud says the same thing. hm

[eagler]

60. Duh

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

[underseasurveyor]

66. Hmmmm let me see, how 'bout

Thou shall not dishonor thy father and mother.

If a child is a liar, couldn't that be construed to be a dishonorable reflection of the parents who didn't teach their child any better?
This person who said that dishonors his or her father & mother by lying and god does not approve. ;-)
:evilgrin: