I'm begging you...stop with the "it isn't over yet" posts...

[friesianrider]

I hear these over and over that "there's something in the works" and "the electors don't meet until December and it's about to happen" and "Kerry's working on something behidn the scenes", etc etc etc. But NO ONE provides any proof anything is happening. I have no reason to believe this is anything but wishful thinking. ALL these posts do is get everyone's hopes up for what will probably be absolutely nothing. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be wrong on this and ultimately have Kerry as President. But is this really probable? It doesn't seem like anyone has any information to back up these claims other than a veiled "I have connections". :eyes:

It's also interesting that 90% of the people who keep saying "oh they're working hard and something's in the works" all have the upside down American flag icon. Unless you can provide specifics or have ANYTHING to back up these absurd beliefs, please quit posting them. After losing a dear friend in Iraq and feeling devastated because I let him down with this election, I have had enough disappointment for one lifetime and can't take anymore.

[merh]

1. link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2628051

[alittlelark]

2. uh, yeah..... I guess you feel that way

I happened to like democracy.... perhaps I am but a fool.

[friesianrider]

8. What?

I don't mean to be a smart ass - I really have no idea what that meant.

[alittlelark]

40. Get informed, it's not difficult to do

Try googling 'vote fraud'

[Randi_Listener]

3. Proof of fraud is in the fucking works

It may not turn the results around, but fraud is fraud and needs to be explosed.

Sorry about your friend but our Democracy is at fucking stake here.

[still_one]

7. absolutely

[goclark]

76. Bravo!

We will fight for every inch in this FRAUD issue.

Why some of us prefer to sleep is beyond me.

Remember how after Gore had them stop counting people said, " Oh he should have done this or done that."

It's easy to Sunday afternoon quarterback it's another thing to throw the ball.

If you don't buy the lottery ticket, you can not possibly win!

Let's roll on this issue and keep it kicked.

[Catch22Dem]

4. I agree, I think there are a lot of false hopes here...

I'll never stop coming to DU because it's one of the greatest sources of information around, but sometimes I have to remind myself to take things with a grain of salt. This is one of those times. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not setting myself up for disappointment again. I have no reason to believe * won't be preznit for the next four years.

[linazelle]

10. Agree n/t

[jdj]

21. well, hell, he can do away with term limits now, he has

absolute power. He could be preznit for the rest of YOUR LIFE.

Election fraud has to be tackled or Democracy is dead.

[Catch22Dem]

45. I never suggested otherwise...

And don't make it appear as though I did. All I said is, I won't get my hopes up again. I have to remain skeptical in order to remain sane.

[patdem]

41. You know what?? HOPE WORKS..and I am here to prove it....

A friend of mine overdosed on Tylenol..and it was a FACT..he was going to die. it was just a matter of time... his liver would eventually just fail because of the poison that Tylenol does to the liver.

Well, I took my vacation to be with him..and went home only to take a shower and return..cause when I was away all I heard was the Doctors saying..it is only a matter of time.

Well there was one Doctor who sort of gave hope...like his liver numbers do not look good, but his color is better than we would expect with these numbers...

So when the Doctors were all gathered to tell us what was happening...I told the Doctors...I want 'HER' to tell me what is happeing to him, because she includes hope with her prognosis...

Guess what? HE LIVED...HE DID NOT DIE..AND IT WAS NOT A MATTER OF TIME!!!

[KoKo]

73. patdem....have had similar experience. Agree...there is hope and a "Will"

that keeps things going. It ain't over til it's over.

[flowomo]

50. agree also

[still_one]

5. No matter what happens or happened it is VITAL

that voting in this country i accurate, and any BBV machine that doesn't have an audit trail and receipt is a problem

If we cannot establish accurate voting then this country is no longer a Democracy

[nostamj]

6. I'm begging you.... please...

read IdaBriggs,
read TruthIsAll,
read BevHarris (www.blackboxvoting.ORG),
read Thom Hartman (commondreams.com)

and then you'll stop asking for specifics and understand that investigations are ONGOING and serious.

[friesianrider]

12. Investigations, yes...but anything changing?

Probably not. People on here give the impression that Kerry is about to be President once the "behind the scenes" stuff comes to light.

Investigations proving that * cheated are likely of course. But they will probably change nothing, and people should stop giving DUers the impression it will.

[nostamj]

26. "investigations are ongoing"

and, let me add, GROWING.

no, we don't kmow AT THIS TIME, if anything will change the outcome, but, it is looking like this 'election' will prove as tainted or MORE than 2000.

if they doesn't unseat the chimp, FRAUD will taint his 'mandate' and *should* force real election reforms.

sorry the results aren't instant soup... this will have to simmer a bit but could well come to furious boil...

(see Keith Olberman, for example)

[friesianrider]

36. Oh I agree...

This election was definitely stolen "worse" than in 2000...

[ncgrits]

46. I agree--it will take time. . . .

Watergate started as hanky-panky during an election . . . and eventually it resulted in a resignation.

We might not get our President Kerry for Christmas, that's true. But it needs to be pursued anyway and heads need to roll and we'll get this thing fixed or our democracy is toast.

[txindy]

31. It's been five days!

Have a little patience and faith. It's not even been a week, yet.

[In Truth We Trust]

57. all due respect- BULLSHIT on your sentiments and would YOU please stop

discouraging patriots in the course of our duty to protect mom, apple pie and democracy.

[friesianrider]

61. Oh please.

Discouraging patriots? Are you kidding me? When did I ever say "everyone needs to grab a Bible, an NRA card, and join the GOP"?

Why don't you read ALL my posts (and slowly) before posting.

[Tomee450]

66. I couldn't agree with you more.

Even if fraud is discovered, the Democrats will do nothing about it. It will be a repeat of 2000. Nothing was done about all the people in Florida who were disenfranchised. The party leadership rarely talked about it. I hope something will be done if fraud is proved, but I doubt it. The Democrats just don't seem to want to fight.

[demodonkey]

13. Even if it does NOT overturn the results now...

this HAS to expose the FRAUD and get changes made in how we vote in the future -- otherwise our democracy is GONE!

Remember, Nixon entered his 2nd term w/ high approval ratings and a big win too...

PS do you really ride Friesian horses (am a rider too)

[friesianrider]

20. :)

Hi demodonkey, Yes, indeed a Friesian rider here! My boys are the only thing that keeps me sane after Tuesday :(

[demodonkey]

38. Am a Palomino Person Myself (apologies to others 4 being sort of O/T)

But I love Friesians! They are gorgeous...never rode one but I bet the impulsion is incredible! We need a "donkeys on horseback" (Democratic Equestrians) thread somewhere.... I don't know how to work DU very well yet and not enough posts to start a thread, though.

Seriously I was out in the barn earlier this evening helping a neighbor kid learn about horses by brushing one of my colts (yes colt, but a good little boy) and all I could think about is will this kid have the real right to vote when she grows up... will she have the right to have a horse... will there be any place for horses to even exist... there is SO much at stake...

So PLEASE hang in there. No it may not get Kerry in as our next President but we need to get the word out expose the Fraud or we may never have real elections again.

Give your horses a kiss on their shiny black nose for me, please! :-)

[nookiemonster]

9. I agree,

Unless we have solid, rock-hard evidence to back this stuff up, we will be ridiculed and marginalized even further.

Don't get me wrong, I want to believe. It's just that we are a facts-based bunch and theories won't cut it.

DEFINITIVE PROOF, that's all.

[JohnnyCougar]

18. We're not gonna have proof right away.

That's what investigations find. Since when did you need proof to investigate anything?

[Laelth]

19. Perhaps.

But how much worse for us could it be? We're already ridiculed, marginalized, and nearly powerless. Exposing the fraud may be the last, best hope we have to save democracy in the US.

Am I wrong to feel this way? :toast:

-Laelth

[nookiemonster]

32. No, it is not wrong to feel this way.

Let me back up. Like I said earlier, I want to believe and I'm almost certain that this election was taken from us.

I wouldn't put it past this cabal to pull crap like this, they've done it before. Just ask Florida residents.

I become cynical because of the hostile media environment that we live in now. The drip, drip, approach is futile at best and will not be reported to the masses. I think we can agree on that.

I hope that there's some serious investigations going on. We need to save up everything we find out and hit them with it full bore, broadside. Granted it will take awhile.

I'm not going anywhere.

[VivaKerry]

64. good point. it couldn't get any worse

so why not stick in there.

[Straight Shooter]

11. Hope springs eternal, friesianrider. See Keith O's latest blog

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6368819/

"... there is a small but blood-curdling set of news stories that right now exists somewhere between the world of investigative journalism, and the world of the Reynolds Wrap Hat. And while the group’s ultimate home remains unclear - so might our election of just a week ago."

Italics, my emphasis.

You didn't let your friend down. I can't add any more to that, but it's the truth. I hope someday you can lay that burden aside. It belongs to bush, not to you.

[JohnnyCougar]

14. Nader is requesting a recount

The FBI is investigating in Florida
Cobb is recounting in Ohio

Proof doesn't just jump right out and hit you on the nose. You have to go on intuition first, and then find the proof. Intuition tells us there is widespread fraud. We have to go from there instead of give up hope.

No one's just gonna pop up out of the blue and say, "Hey look, I committed fraud, and here's the proof!" Tha only happens after there is an investigation.

[LisaLynne]

15. You should always take things posted to ...

any internet forum with a grain of salt, but there is real evidence of fraud. Does that mean it can be proven? No. Does that mean that even if we got proof it would get * out of office? No.

But, we can't just give up because we can't be certain that anything will happen. We have to keep hitting this stuff. We have to keep trying. We're all having a bad time here, some more than others, but we have to remain strong. Yes, it would be easier to give up. It would take a lot less energy, emotional and otherwise, but then we would certainly be giving up our democracy and with it, eventually, the freedoms that we enjoy in this country. We would be consigning a lot more people to death wihtout having tried our very best to prevent it.

In the end, if all I can say is that I tried, that will have to be enough, but I must be able to say at least that.

[Dancing_Dave]

16. O.K., Democracy is Over, Get Over It and Leave the Country

But I'd rather stay a while to fight the corruption, deception and fraud. If we don't fight it, they'll never be a fair election in the U.S. again...or at least not until America looks like Germany in 1945. The time to curb Fascism is NOW! Speak now, or forever hold your peace in Guantanamo!

[friesianrider]

28. Some of you are missing my point.

I'm not saying there isn't evidence of fraud. There is. I'm not saying we shouldn't have investigations. We should. I can see quite clearly that there is evidence of fraud and we must have investigations.

What I'm taking issue with is people acting like these investigations will happen overnight and Kerry will be our President come January with all these "there's something in the works" crap. I just have no stomach to get all excited that something big is about to happen and Kerry will be sworn in in January.

[PretzelWarrior]

17. IT ISN'T OVER YET!

nyah nyah!! :P

[stepnw1f]

22. It isn't Over

sorry

[Lostnote03]

Depends on what "it" is...n/t

[aquart]

23. You must be very young

If that's all the death and disappointment you can come up with.

I have news for you. It's going to get a lot worse.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DELUSIONAL]

24. friesianrider -- GO AWAY

If you want to lay down and listed to Rove's meme -- then do it -- don't bother me with your attitude.

This election was STOLEN -- we have to start fighting now -- because if we do not -- THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER FAIR ELECTION IN THE US -- unless ALL votes are counted and everyone who wants to vote can vote.

No matter how much we try to make nice to the GOP -- THEY don't give a shit. THEY are counting the votes -- and they have the voting machines in enough places that they control the vote outcome.

Don't you understand? Don't you get it -- this election was stolen.

So just GO AWAY.

And anyone who come out with the same sort of message -- go away now -- just go away. Become a Republican --

[flowomo]

33. excuse me.... is this the new litmus test to be welcome at DU?

I don't believe the election was stolen. Push the alert button. If the mods think this is treasonous freeper trolling, just PM me and tell me to go. And I'll go.

[friesianrider]

35. Well - - yes - - I - - do - -

Go away? Very democratic of you. :eyes:

For the last time, yes I BELIEVE THE ELECTION REEKS OF FRAUD. What viable human being with a brain couldn't see that this election was fixed? We NEED investigations, otherwise nothing will change.

My point is people here act as if the investigations are gonna take place in a day and the results will somehow be different (ie Kerry will be sworn in come January). That's just not reasonable and people shouldn't get others' hopes up.

[Straight Shooter]

55. Sorry, friesanrider, let me counteract that by asking you to please stay

:hug:

[friesianrider]

60. Thank you :)

Of course I will stay at DU and I will stay and fight for my country always. Being overtaken by GWB is pretty insulting, so I don't intend to roll over and die on this. :)

[Catch22Dem]

54. What kind of stupid shit is this?

Go away? If you had actually READ the post, you'd see that the original poster NEVER suggested we should stop the investigations, NEVER suggested the election wasn't stolen (in fact acknowledged it was) NEVER suggested * was legitimate. So, you might want to tone down the bullshit and refrain from telling people to go away.

[flowomo]

58. agree in full!

[Ladyhawk]

25. I kind of feel like you do.

I do feel there was fraud involved, but I don't think Kerry and others are working behind the scenes to expose it. I think that's up to us.

Perhaps we should hide those kinds of threads from ourselves? We're all upset over this whole mess. I know I need to come down.

[friesianrider]

37. EXACTLY.

Of course fraud was involved - just look at the exit polls vs. actual vote counts. But to think that Kerry conceded and is somehow biding his time to come out and challenge the results 3 weeks later is pretty unlikely, and even more unlikely that it will change the outcome.

Fraud exposure is up to us.

[Ladyhawk]

81. We'd better do something BIG or I will move out of the country.

I can't keep pretending we'll somehow pull it off in '06. It's OVER unless we challenge this one and the voting machines.

[seemslikeadream]

27. House Judiciary Committee letter to GAO regarding voting machines

House Judiciary Committee letter to GAO regarding voting machines

November 5, 2004
The Honorable David M. Walker
Comptroller General of the United States
U.S. General Accountability Office
441 G Street, NW
Washington, DC 20548

Dear Mr. Walker:

We write with an urgent request that the Government Accountability Office immediately undertake an investigation of the efficacy of voting machines and new technologies used in the 2004 election, how election officials responded to difficulties they encountered and what we can do in the future to improve our election systems and administration.

In particular, we are extremely troubled by the following reports, which we would also request that you review and evaluate for us:

In Columbus, Ohio, an electronic voting system gave President Bush nearly 4,000 extra votes. "Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes," Associated Press, November 5.

An electronic tally of a South Florida gambling ballot initiative failed to record thousands of votes. "South Florida OKs Slot Machines Proposal," Id.

In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots could hold more data that it did. "Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes," Id.

In San Francisco, a glitch occurred with voting machines software that resulted in some votes being left uncounted. Id.

In Florida, there was a substantial drop off in Democratic votes in proportion to voter registration in counties utilizing optical scan machines that was apparently not present in counties using other mechanisms. http://ustogether.org/election04/florida_vote_patt.htm

The House Judiciary Committee Democratic staff has received numerous reports from Youngstown, Ohio that voters who attempted to cast a vote for John Kerry on electronic voting machines saw that their votes were instead recorded as votes for George W. Bush. In South Florida, Congressman Wexler's staff received numerous reports from voters in Palm Beach, Broward and Dade Counties that they attempted to select John Kerry but George Bush appeared on the screen. CNN has reported that a dozen voters in six states, particularly Democrats in Florida, reported similar problems. This was among over one thousand such problems reported. "Touchscreen Voting Problems Reported," Associated Press, November 5.

Excessively long lines were a frequent problem throughout the nation in Democratic precincts, particularly in Florida and Ohio. In one Ohio voting precinct serving students from Kenyon College, some voters were required to wait more than eight hours to vote. "All Eyes on Ohio," Dan Lothian, CNN, November 3, http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/blog/1...blog/index... ..

We are literally receiving additional reports every minute and will transmit additional information as it comes available. The essence of democracy is the confidence of the electorate in the accuracy of voting methods and the fairness of voting procedures. In 2000, that confidence suffered terribly, and we fear that such a blow to our democracy may have occurred in 2004.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this inquiry.

Sincerely,
John Conyers, Jr. Jerrold Nadler Robert Wexler
Ranking Member Ranking Member Member of Congress
House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution
cc: Hon. F. James Sensenbrenner
Chairman

[flowomo]

49. the key line is: "what we can do in the future to improve our election

systems and administration." These guys are NOT claiming the election was stolen. There is a big difference between believing the system sucks and that Bush did not win. I think the system sucks and should be fixed.

[idiosyncratic]

29. And what would you have me do

Am I supposed to accept the outcome and "work together" with these hateful, spiteful bigots.

In the next election, if the voting fraud isn't stopped, I could lose my Democratic Senators.

I'd love to lose my Republican Representative, but none of the voting anomalies went against the dark side.

[friesianrider]

43. No of course not...that's not what I;m saying...

I'm not saying don't fight, but I'm saying to cling to the belief it will come from Kerry isn't likely.

[donco6]

34. I'm not sure ANYTHING will EVER prove fraud.

Mainly because the people in power perpetrated the fraud, and they don't want it to be proven. What scenario can you imagine that would cause any majority of people anywhere to rise up and say, "Yeah, that guys a fraud!" I can't think of any. Honestly, I really can't.

Maybe I'm being too much of a wet blanket, and I'm not saying don't try, but I just don't have much hope in anything anymore.

[Laelth]

82. In order to prove fraud ...

on a scale that might make a difference, we've got to see the "snowball effect." One person who's in on the fix has got to be caught, red-handed, and this person has then got to be given immunity in exchange for testimony that exposes the entire operation.

Two problems, though. First, this operation may not have been orchestrated at all. Perhaps all GOP headquarters did was to circulate a memo "warning" about how Dems. could hack into the optical-scan vote-counting machines and telling their operatives to "be on guard." From there, all the GOP operative at the county vote-counting computer has to do is take the initiative and edit the database himself or herself (giving Bush, say, an extra 3,000 votes). If this happens in 1,000 counties across the nation, there's Bush's 3 million vote lead. In other words, if this operation wasn't orchestrated, we won't be able to hold * accountable for it, nor will we be able to get the "snowball" that exposes the whole scheme. Second, even if we could prove a vast conspiracy to create fraudulent votes for *, we might still get stopped in the courts.

Nevertheless, I still think it's worth the effort. I don't believe for a second that * won legitimately.

-Laelth

[kayell]

39. As of now I am taking a wait and see on that.

I'm also not going to fall into the "Kerry is an evil loser" trap.

If it is possible to get into a hope without hoping stance that is where I am. Maybe a Zen Buddhist would know how to do that.

Meanwhile I will do whatever, no matter how little, to spread the word about the fraud, since I have no programming or research skills in this area to give. Right now all we can each do is the most that we can do with what we have. We can't know what Kerry is or isn't doing so long as he doesn't want us to know (for whatever reason.)

There's little purpose in speculating on that right now AFAIC, but I think we're all adults and can choose how to handle things ourselves.

[Avalux]

42. Who do you think you are?

We need hope - if it doesn't pan out - we'll go from there. I'm sorry about your loss, but lying down and giving up is NOT the answer. Here's to you being proved wrong.

[friesianrider]

47. What?

What am I not being clear about? Did I ever say lie down and join the GOP? NO!

I'm saying to cling to the absurd belief that somehow Kerry will resurrect and change the results is being way too optimistic.

If we want to see a fight, it will havr to be led by US, not Kerry. I think he's done.

[Avalux]

51. OK

chances are we'll have to do it, at this point I'd like to think Kerry is still working for us though. Ultimately, it is up to us. Never give up and never forget who we are. Peace. :hug:

[seabeyond]

44. just ignore them. you dont need to see them, dont

i didnt need to see the polls the last month to election, so i just didnt go into those threads. but this is important work other people need to delve into. it may not be your place, but we certainly need people to investigate this and see what comes of it. i dont mess with something is gonna happen kinda thing. i will wait until it does

[vetwife]

52. Ever hear of gueralla warfare? While The prez is gloating........

the eye is off the ball in the beautiful victory speech made while people were still voting. Don't you find it strange that we have not heard anything from Gore? Carter? Cleland? Biden? Some lawyers?
Edwards? Kennedy? Byrd? think about that for a minute. Think about this too while I still think its not over. why are they discussing Reid and Dodd as Senate minority leader if Kerry will still be a senator? Think about that one ! Do you think that people just rolled over and died? I don't think so. Let the republicans gloat, defense position is coming soon !

[seabeyond]

63. my flag is upside down. i saw when the election was stolen

and when bush declared. i ahve followed it all the way. on every thread i say dems did great they won, it was stolen. nah, i am a believer. i dont know if someone is doing anything, they are quiet, i gotta assume though. enough are hinting at being aware. after 2000 and gore and mm movie, i cant believe we are all going to just walk away, especially since i know it is massive and nationwide

but if this person cant stand the be patient something is happening threads, i can understand. there were plenty of disappointments in those over the last 6 months. he doesnt have to read. but yes, i think what we are doing with this is vital. if something isnt odne, what does it matter later, we won this, what does it matter who we get, they win and is stolen,. same result

lots of clever people. i cant imagine this isnt going somewhere. i think we need to convess with a flyer, thru out community, bush stole election, start getting peoples ears use to hearing. cause many many dont have a clue

[Cha]

48. I'm so sorry about your friend who

got killed in Iraq.

Some of us are grieving for our Country and will not be put off investigating into voter fraud because some people don't get it.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110804A.shtml

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[autorank]

59. You are right! Kerry wimped out. What a stud. Sincere condolences.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[Cha]

67. Whose quote is that?

I want to save that!

[Cha]

75. Wow! I was just coming back to answer

this thread and it's been deleted.

I think I'll just let it go at that.

[high density]

53. The Killian memos are real and Dan Rather has more proof!

Oh wait... Hmm. No, they're not real. :eyes:

(And before I attract flames, I have no doubt that the content of the memos is real, however I do think that all of the evidence points to the fact that the memos we saw on TV are fake. Everybody here thought Dan Rather had something up his sleeve for a week to prove the authenticity of the memos, but that clearly wasn't the case. I also feel that BBV is a bad thing that must be stopped.)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

62. I understand, emotionally, where you're coming from. But no one is making

you read any of this. If you really can't stand it, go outside and run five miles, or swim, or take your dog for a walk.

[Tomee450]

65. I agree with you.

It just gives people false hope. Reminds me of all the "Kerry in a landslide posts."

[gordianot]

68. I do not think we will see a Kerry administration, but again who knows?

I have not given up hope. Michael Moore or those following him turned loose of some very interesting video. There are developments coming out of Florida.

Also, who knows if this is organized, after all you are talking about Democrats.

You can learn much more on DU than on CNN, CBS, Fox, ABC combined.

[friesianrider]

69. God I hope you are right...

But I just can't seem to let myself believe there is even hope, after *knowing* Kerry would win (and he did, but we all know what happened).

I do hope upon hope I am dead wrong on this.

[gordianot]

78. There should be more tomorrow.

I have some questions:

If Florida is shown to have massive voter fraud, what happens in December if Florida has no electors?

Or If the Florida and Ohio Electors are contested in January. What happens?

I think we may see things we have never seen before.

[Avalux]

70. You know what?

If you can't take it anymore, go away. The "I lost a friend" line is meant to stir up empathy, but after reading your post again I think you're not very interested in finding the truth. My previous post was conciliatory but now I think I'll retract.

[friesianrider]

72. That's great.

Thanks ever so much for the support. Good to know that I can come here and express my thoughts and hurt and be TOTALLY railed on for it and told to "just go away".

That's right. I don't care about finding the truth. I hope all Democrats die. Yep, I hope we never have a free ekection ever again. Oh and my friend? Yes, he was just a tool for me to let everyone here know "I don't care about the truth".

This kind of attitude, this attitude that any Dem who doesn't fall right in line with you, is really destructive and helps NOTHING. Find the truth, yes, but to expect that it will change this election's outcome is folly.

[gordianot]

79. The problem is we all care too much.

Democrat disease.

I swing from running away to the eternal optimist.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friesianrider]

74. Thanks.

A lot, thanks. "STFU", nice argument.

[savistocate]

80. Why dos anyone think they're the only one who's lost

aloved one OR ABOUT TO? Baffling.

So many "misunderstood" so must have been a point confusing..badly made.

[FM Arouet666]

77. Bigger let down when the chimp is sworn in

I agree, we lost, we need to re-group and recover. Face it, the last election was far more close and full of irregularities, but the chimp was sworn in nonetheless. The pipe dreams will just make the inauguration harder for you.