This won't be popular, but here goes anyway....

[LTRS]

Folks, I don't think Kerry or his lawyers are working on anything. I don't think Ralph Nader is going to get a recount in NH (because no check was sent with the request and the deadline is past). Why do I think this? Because DC leaks like a sieve and no one is talking about this except left wing radio jocks and Internet commentators. We've gotten the word out, but neither the media nor our politicians are picking it up, and they would have by now if they were going to.

That said, I hope I am dead wrong. There is a case to be made that they are keeping mum while checking things out, but again, leaks are hard to stop if the story is as hot as this would be if true.

At best, I think we are going to get a GAO investigation that will take a year, and will likely whitewash most of the problems -- calling them "glitches" inevitable in the system. Maybe, if we hold feet to the fire we will get a paper trail and a much better (or even existent) audit system, but only if we push and push and push with our individual Secretary's of State. It would also be nice if we demanded they take the partisanship out of election boards and simply make them career govt jobs.

I am going to move on and plan for the future. I comfort myself with two small things -- they are going to overreach more than ever, and will perhaps turn the tide against them. Things aren't getting any better out there and knowing the Bush administration they will fuck things up even more. That will leave an opening for dems to take back power. We are very close already. Small margins separate US and THEM. Hanging in there and fighting hard seems likely to be worth the effort.

The other small comfort I take is knowing how hard I worked to get Kerry elected. I busted ass for him and I know many of us here did as well. And that means the moral obligation for what happens between now and 2006 is lifted from our shoulders. We did what we could do, and the fault from this point forward lies with the morans of this country - not with us. No small comfort.

Let the healing begin so you can come back strong and keep fighting. Semper Fi fellow Americans. We are the true patriots of this country.

[Carolab]

1. Well...

that's optimistic

[Sleepless In NY]

9. LTRS I feel the same way you do

If it should go the other way, I'd be more than happy too, but I'm not holding my breath either. Only good thing for sure, is that, bush will have to clean up his own mess, for once in his miserable, irresponsible life. I just hope the democrats won't help him do it.

[LisaL]

13. I heard that from so many people.

Some apparently even voted for Bush so he can clean up his own mess.
How is he capable of cleaning up his own mess? The only thing he can do, IMO, is to get us into an even bigger mess.

[Sleepless In NY]

16. Lizzy Yes, but it will still be his mess alone

No blaming it on Clinton or anyone else. And if he can't clean it up? There goes his precious legacy. And not to sound heartless, that's even better for us in 2008. I'm sure we have all worked hard not to see bush elected. Its out of our hands now. And I'd like to see hands off from the democrats in trying to save him.

[JohnnyCougar]

2. I won't give up untill I hear the end of that FBI story

about the representative from Florida. That got my attention.

[Gelliebeans]

3. Ive been gone

what story was that JohnnyCougar? Do you have a link?

[JohnnyCougar]

29. Yup.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

Enjoy!

[LTRS]

37. If this was credible mainstream media would be reporting it

[JohnnyCougar]

42. The mainstram media will be reporting it if the FBI finds something.

No one is gonna jump the gun on this one. Do you realize the implications these stories make? I suspect the MSM will be extra careful about this.

[Starlight]

4. Yes, you've posted this dozens of times already.

We hear your opinion. You can stop now. :eyes:

[LTRS]

20. No I haven't - what are you talking about?

The closest thing I have posted was that it won't really get looked into unless the request comes from Kerry. I think you are confused.

[LTRS]

21. No I haven't - what are you talking about?

The closest thing I have posted was that it won't really get looked into unless the request comes from Kerry. I think you are confused.

[iverglas]

41. I can't help myself

Yes, you've posted this dozens of times already. - moonbeams
No I haven't - what are you talking about? - LTRS
No I haven't - what are you talking about? - LTRS


Of all times for the double-posting glitch to occur.

;)

[keopeli]

5. That's a very realistic perspective. However, your 'small' comforts are

tiny!
1. We get a half-assed non-binding investigation that does nothing.
2. bush will fuck up so we have better chances in 06

Not to rain on your parade but, without voting rigor, what makes you think we'll have better chances? bush already fucked up so much it hurts. and, with a non-binding investigation, how does that improve future election reliability?

I suggest you rest comforted in the knowledge that we all did what we could. Then, seek the path of least resistance for you and your loved ones, even if that means moving elsewhere. Think locally. Make your small home space safe. And, turn off your TV news forever. Live happily.

[LTRS]

23. Yes, think locally, including election reform

I don't think we will get much accomplished if we rely in federal legislators there. Voting is fundementally a function of the states. Hammer this in your state - best solution.

I like your think locally suggestion on the whole as well. I am lucky enough to live in a blue state with a dem majority all the way around (but not by much). I take comfort in that as well. If it gets worse, may head up to Canada.

[saracat]

6. Why has the K/E site gone back up with the request to fund

recount lawyers then????

[incapsulated]

11. On johnkerry.com?

I didn't see anything. Where?

[high density]

14. The GELAC fund donate link has been there for weeks or even months

This is nothing new.

[LTRS]

24. It hasn't gone "back" up

That was up before the election and just never taken down.

[OneBlueSky]

7. sad to say, I agree with you . . .

when Kerry conceded, that was it . . . the notion of some vast underground investigation defies credulity . . . the best we can hope for is that some of the independent invetigators will uncover enough to cast a pall over Bush's victory and diminish his claims of a mandate . . .

[Chili]

8. LTRS...

...I wasn't really here every day during the early months of summer, I just checked in periodically, so only you guys can attest to this: there weren't any leaks during Kerry's VP choice process either. No leaks, it drove the media nuts, it was a frenzy. Staking out Kerry's house, trying to find who went in and out, trying to get a clue and the scoop... maybe that sieve is tight because no one is being told what is going on. If I were him, and there was something going on underneath the surface, I'd trust only my closest advisers, no one else. He's known for this, many a pundit said "Kerry keeps his cards close to his chest." Maybe that's really true.

Just a sliver of hope, that's all. I'm clinging to it, it makes me feel better until I can really move on. :)

Hang in there.

[Sleepless In NY]

22. Chili.... Kerry was quiet about the swift boat vets too

So I dont know that being "quiet" bodes well or ill. Hope you're right!

[Chili]

34. *chokes*

...don't remind me! Ack!

[LTRS]

25. Well that could be -- hope you're right

... but not holding my breath. I'll be happily surprised if that's the case.

[LisaL]

10. I agree.

I feel Kerry definitely isn't working on anything. Nader also appears to be late requesting a recount because he didn't send a check. But it's not final, is it? I heard he could still go to court?
I guess all we can do is raise a stink.
:mad:

[idiosyncratic]

12. I'm going to stay on this . . . They promised us "Hope."

[lakeguy]

15. what a load of BS! a TRUE patriot does not stop fighting

for their country and you just did. what is there to wait for, another stolen election in 2006 or 2008? if we can't defeat one of the worst presidential candidates ever in 2004 what makes you think we can defeat a mediocre one next time? unless some changes happen now, we don't stand a chance in the next cycle. stand up and fight damn it! tell every person you can about the fraud being perpetuated on this country. write your local paper, tv station or whoever. get the word out and DON'T EVER QUIT!

[Erika]

17. That's Why Many Of Us Looking Into Moving Out Of Country

Thee is a camplacency by the middle class to care less about the needy. The Bushies don't even want them to entertain the thought that there are needy Americans out there.

[LTRS]

26. I am not going to stop fighting

... at least not until they start talking about making it illegal for me even to be gay. At that point me and my family are moving.

Hoping for something that isn't going to happen is not my definition of fighting though.

[noiretextatique]

18. you know...i have been trying since tuesday to keep a positive outlook

but it's been really difficult to do here. it hasn't even been a WEEK since the election, and some of you are already giving up. why should kerry stick his neck out for a bunch of whiners and quitters? i've seen posts here all day saying we need to move right, drop the gay marriage issue, cave in on abortion, and otherwise give up. we know the 2000 election was bogus, and there is NO WAY this election was fair.
i am sure kerry and edwards know this too, and i am positive they haven't givrn up yet.
i know people are tired...i know you worked you ass off, and i understand how you feel. but there is no moving on from a stolen election...we should have learned that the first time.

[LTRS]

27. He's not sticking his neck out though

... that's the problem. Perhaps he has good reasons not to do so. So I am not condeming him, though I am a little disappointed in him.

[noiretextatique]

30. do you remember what happened to gore?

i do. remember the media circus surrounding the recount? the discussions about hanging chads and why paper ballots couldn't be recounted? remember the republican attack zombies who spinned recounting, a routine and normal process in a close election, as some evil plot to steal the election?
do you really think if kerry stuck his neck out now that he wouldn't get the same treatment? i KNOW he would.
i think we are being smarter this time. get the evidence first, then face the media whores.
i understand your disappointment, i do. but it's been only a few days...hang in there.

[LTRS]

36. We aren't going to get access to ballots or evidence

without Kerry stepping up. That's just a fact. So nothing is going to happen.

As for Gore the only thing that happened to him was that polls consistently showed that Bush was viewed as an illegitmate leader by 38-45% of the public for four long years. Latest poll - 3 days before the election by NYT.

[noiretextatique]

38. nader and cobb are at least making noises about recounts

in states where they can, e.g, new hampshire. what, exactly, is it that you think kerry should do? ummm...you forgot another thing that happened to gore...he didn't run again for the office he was cheated out of.

[LTRS]

40. Kerry could call for an investigation in electronic voting

... without making noises that he is trying to change the election results.

As for Gore, he didn't run again because the party leaders would not support him. The insiders were pissed as hell at him and thought he ran a really bad campaign. He was pissed at them because they criticized him so much. He exiled himself for months and didn't even make an attempt to thank his major supporters (the folks who go out and get the big donations for the candidates). He was bitter. And when he did come out of seculsion his previous supporters (the money men) made it clear they would not support him again.

That is why Gore didn't run again.

[noiretextatique]

45. clearly...you don't remember the gore media circus

and all the "experts" whining about how the ballots were to "degraded" to recount. why do you think this would be any different? even some democrats HERE are saying bush won...get over it.
yeah, gore got "gored" by the media, and the money men. i also remember he had members of his own party saying he should concede...for the good of the country. and of course, some here agreed with that as well.
without some hard evidence this time, the media will fuck kerry, just as they fucked gore.

[illuminaughty]

35. Thank you again. Why does everyone have such a short

attention span. We are not the morans. Come on. It's not like we won't have time to bitch and moan when we are sure Kerry is not fighting for us.

How long do you think the fight will take once it starts? Are you going to think this negatively when you find out it won't be easy.
I see this as the last ditch effort before we are officially a Fascist nation. Do you want another trigger happy president? I thought most people here understood the attack methods of this admin. and the media. Going underground is the only thing that makes sense.

Watch "Going Upriver" or read Kerry's testimony to the Senate and start making preparations yourself. We may all need to get things together to be ready to leave at a moment's notice. Hence the Nov. 3rd pledge. We will go where they need us. Civil disobedience etc.

[nofurylike]

39. well said. n/t

[serryjw]

19. Want this country back? Want this party back?

Start with getting rid of the DLC.
Next get some leadership that has Ba*LS
Start being proud of our liberal roots
Murdock has a network, we need SOROS to get one
START telling America the whole truth...there was so much Kerry didn't say that should have

and pass a Constitutional Amendment that we ONLY vote on paper across this land...regardless of the color of the state!
Pass legislation in the Congress that the networks MUST give FREE airtime to National elections
Pass legislation that ALL National elections are Publically funded..F*CK this corporate Bushit contributions..it comes back and bites us in the arse....I will never give ONE MORE dime to MOVEON or PFAW! They go thru the motions but fold at the slightest resistance

Without this we are all playing with ourselves!

[LTRS]

28. I definitely concur with getting rid of the DLC

They are pretty much done for anyway though. Al From made the mistake of thinking that the DLC made Clinton (there only claim to fame) when reality was that Clinton made the DLC.

As for the rest, right on!

[nofurylike]

33. why do people here pseudodisguise "ba*LS"? it's believing it that is

the problem. so whisper it?

today, one ranting "that pussy...!"

pr*cks.

"Next get some leadership that has Ba*LS"
seems just about all them got balls, no?
n balls seem to be blowin it, no?

one thing i keep seeing in progressives is the worse things get, the more womyn are expected to just understand men got more important manly troubles to worry about than if they're bigots.




bad timing for lip service to consciousness.
make me miss what might otherwise have been a good post.

and why bait me like that? why do that to yourself?

rhetorical. like you could care.


bye.

[althecat]

31. If we are right then no matter how * fucks up they will never lose again

**** NOTE THIS STARTED OFF AS A RESPONSE TO LTRS's - "This won't be popular, but here goes anyway...." - and indeed is also posted in that thread.. however as it ended up turning into a longish and vaguely lucid rant I decided to turn it into a thread of its own.... ****

YOU CAN CHOOSE TO REPLY TO THIS THREAD IN NEW THREAD AT...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2626325
IF YOU WANT THAT IS :)

If we are right then no matter how * fucks up they will never lose again

From what I have seen of the evidence in terms of Vote Fraud 2004 this is infinitely more widespread than anything before.

This time they did not simply confine themselves to stealing a few important races. From my impressions of this thing the fraud took place in at least 20 states possibly more.

This time they made sure that Bush had a clear advantage in the popular vote as well as in the state races and therefore a moral authority and loads of "political capital" to spend.

If we are right then you will no longer be able to elect your own candidates to run for office let alone elect them into office. There is considerable evidence that the race for the governorship primary in Florida between Reno and McBride was fixed.

What this means is that these people whoever they are not only picking the nations leadership they are picking Democratic Party leadership.

*************

To all of us here this is like a kick in the guts. Many of us have been working tirelessly to raise awareness, to tell the truth to Rock the vote and GOTV.

Bush meanwhile made things spectacularly easy for us by running the most corrupt administration in history. Lying the nation into a bitter and protected war and committing more and more serious PR blunders than any politician in history.

In the end a spectacular mobilisation occurred. According to the public record Kerry received 6 million more votes than Gore. That is more than a 10% increase.

AND THEN YOU STILL LOST.... I HAVE HEARD THIS BUSH WILL DIG HIS OWN GRAVE ARGUMENT MORE TIMES THAN I CARE TO RECITE, BUT WITH ME IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WASH. IF PEOPLE CAN SWALLOW THIS RESULT THEY CAN SWALLOW ANYTHING.

David Allen someone I respect greatly made the observation to me today that he is willing to beleive that there are 59 million bush loving fascists in your great country. He can beleive it because he meets them everyday.

Now admittedly I am a foreigner. But I can't beleive that. I have more faith in humanity. More importantly if you democratic activists start to beleive that then you will have already lost the battle as you will start to fear the very people whose hearts and minds are your life's work.

*************

Now time will tell but I am convinced that what I call "tailored vote shaving" took place in many touchscreen counties. That is some of the millions of extra bush voters were not bush voters at all they were kerry... what this means in practice is that all the DNC efforts came to nought because the fruits of your labours extra votes were simply stolen and given to *.

This means you literally led millions of democratic lambs to the slaughter. Who is responsible to those people?

If there are no recounts this year. And I expect you are right there won't be. At least nothing serious... then the vote stealers will be emboldened.

YOU CAN CHOOSE TO REPLY TO THIS THREAD IN NEW THREAD AT...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2626325

[Zorra]

32. Healing my ass! General Strike and Boycott! You can't play by the rules

when the other side makes the rules and then bought off the referees.

We will win nothing until electronic voting is outlawed in the US and elections are fairly monitored, logical and transparent. You can not win when the game is rigged against you.

[Cleita]

43. I agree.

Let's face it, we are stuck with Shrub for another four years. We need to start concentrating on getting him impeached and brought up on war crimes. That is doable.

[Raster]

44. If healing means acceptance, then FUCK NO!!! This wound shall not heal.

I will NEVER accept the validity of a bush* presidency.

I demand a NATIONAL RECOUNT. And this time, No Voter Supression, of any kind, by anyone. Two, All Elections MUST HAVE verifiable methods of recounting votes and secondary accuracy verification.