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lessthanjake Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:05 PM
Original message
Now we FINALLY have evidence of cheating
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm

Presidents may lie, but exit polls don't!



Published on Saturday, November 6, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked
by Thom Hartmann

When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat.

"It was practice for a national effort," Fisher told me.

And evidence is accumulating that the national effort happened on November 2, 2004.

The State of Florida, for example, publishes a county-by-county record of votes cast and people registered to vote by party affiliation. Net denizen Kathy Dopp compiled the official state information into a table, available at http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm, and noticed something startling.


Also See:

Florida Secretary of State Presidential Results by County 11/02/2004 (.pdf)
Florida Secretary of State County Registration by Party 2/9/2004 (.pdf)



While the heavily scrutinized touch-screen voting machines seemed to produce results in which the registered Democrat/Republican ratios matched the Kerry/Bush vote, and so did the optically-scanned paper ballots in the larger counties, in Florida's smaller counties the results from the optically scanned paper ballots - fed into a central tabulator PC and thus vulnerable to hacking - seem to have been reversed.

In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry.

In Dixie County, with 4,988 registered voters, 77.5% of them Democrats and a mere 15% registered as Republicans, only 1,959 people voted for Kerry, but 4,433 voted for Bush.

The pattern repeats over and over again - but only in the smaller counties where, it was probably assumed, the small voter numbers wouldn't be much noticed. Franklin County, 77.3% registered Democrats, went 58.5% for Bush. Holmes County, 72.7% registered Democrats, went 77.25% for Bush.

Yet in the larger counties, where such anomalies would be more obvious to the news media, high percentages of registered Democrats equaled high percentages of votes for Kerry.

More visual analysis of the results can be seen at http://ustogether.org/election04/FloridaDataStats.htm, and www.rubberbug.com/temp/ Florida2004chart.htm.

And, although elections officials didn't notice these anomalies, in aggregate they were enough to swing Florida from Kerry to Bush. If you simply go through the analysis of these counties and reverse the "anomalous" numbers in those counties that appear to have been hacked, suddenly the Florida election results resemble the Florida exit poll results: Kerry won, and won big.

Those exit poll results have been a problem for reporters ever since Election Day.

Election night, I'd been doing live election coverage for WDEV, one of the radio stations that carries my syndicated show, and, just after midnight, during the 12:20 a.m. Associated Press Radio News feed, I was startled to hear the reporter detail how Karen Hughes had earlier sat George W. Bush down to inform him that he'd lost the election. The exit polls were clear: Kerry was winning in a landslide. "Bush took the news stoically," noted the AP report.

But then the computers reported something different. In several pivotal states.

Conservatives see a conspiracy here: They think the exit polls were rigged.

Dick Morris, the infamous political consultant to the first Clinton campaign who became a Republican consultant and Fox News regular, wrote an article for The Hill, the publication read by every political junkie in Washington, DC, in which he made a couple of brilliant points.

"Exit Polls are almost never wrong," Morris wrote. "They eliminate the two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots but never do and by substituting actual observation for guesswork in judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state."

He added: "So, according to ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa, all of which Bush carried. The only swing state the network had going to Bush was West Virginia, which the president won by 10 points."

Yet a few hours after the exit polls were showing a clear Kerry sweep, as the computerized vote numbers began to come in from the various states the election was called for Bush.

How could this happen?

On the CNBC TV show "Topic A With Tina Brown," several months ago, Howard Dean had filled in for Tina Brown as guest host. His guest was Bev Harris, the Seattle grandmother who started www.blackboxvoting.org from her living room. Bev pointed out that regardless of how votes were tabulated (other than hand counts, only done in odd places like small towns in Vermont), the real "counting" is done by computers. Be they Diebold Opti-Scan machines, which read paper ballots filled in by pencil or ink in the voter's hand, or the scanners that read punch cards, or the machines that simply record a touch of the screen, in all cases the final tally is sent to a "central tabulator" machine.

That central tabulator computer is a Windows-based PC.

"In a voting system," Harris explained to Dean on national television, "you have all the different voting machines at all the different polling places, sometimes, as in a county like mine, there's a thousand polling places in a single county. All those machines feed into the one machine so it can add up all the votes. So, of course, if you were going to do something you shouldn't to a voting machine, would it be more convenient to do it to each of the 4000 machines, or just come in here and deal with all of them at once?"

Dean nodded in rhetorical agreement, and Harris continued. "What surprises people is that the central tabulator is just a PC, like what you and I use. It's just a regular computer."

"So," Dean said, "anybody who can hack into a PC can hack into a central tabulator?"

Harris nodded affirmation, and pointed out how Diebold uses a program called GEMS, which fills the screen of the PC and effectively turns it into the central tabulator system. "This is the official program that the County Supervisor sees," she said, pointing to a PC that was sitting between them loaded with Diebold's software.

Bev then had Dean open the GEMS program to see the results of a test election. They went to the screen titled "Election Summary Report" and waited a moment while the PC "adds up all the votes from all the various precincts," and then saw that in this faux election Howard Dean had 1000 votes, Lex Luthor had 500, and Tiger Woods had none. Dean was winning.

"Of course, you can't tamper with this software," Harris noted. Diebold wrote a pretty good program.

But, it's running on a Windows PC.

So Harris had Dean close the Diebold GEMS software, go back to the normal Windows PC desktop, click on the "My Computer" icon, choose "Local Disk C:," open the folder titled GEMS, and open the sub-folder "LocalDB" which, Harris noted, "stands for local database, that's where they keep the votes." Harris then had Dean double-click on a file in that folder titled "Central Tabulator Votes," which caused the PC to open the vote count in a database program like Excel.

In the "Sum of the Candidates" row of numbers, she found that in one precinct Dean had received 800 votes and Lex Luthor had gotten 400.

"Let's just flip those," Harris said, as Dean cut and pasted the numbers from one cell into the other. "And," she added magnanimously, "let's give 100 votes to Tiger."

They closed the database, went back into the official GEMS software "the legitimate way, you're the county supervisor and you're checking on the progress of your election."

As the screen displayed the official voter tabulation, Harris said, "And you can see now that Howard Dean has only 500 votes, Lex Luthor has 900, and Tiger Woods has 100." Dean, the winner, was now the loser.

Harris sat up a bit straighter, smiled, and said, "We just edited an election, and it took us 90 seconds."

On live national television. (You can see the clip on www.votergate.tv.)

Which brings us back to Morris and those pesky exit polls that had Karen Hughes telling George W. Bush that he'd lost the election in a landslide.

Morris's conspiracy theory is that the exit polls "were sabotage" to cause people in the western states to not bother voting for Bush, since the networks would call the election based on the exit polls for Kerry. But the networks didn't do that, and had never intended to. It makes far more sense that the exit polls were right - they weren't done on Diebold PCs - and that the vote itself was hacked.

And not only for the presidential candidate - Jeff Fisher thinks this hit him and pretty much every other Democratic candidate for national office in the most-hacked swing states.

So far, the only national "mainstream" media to come close to this story was Keith Olbermann on his show Friday night, November 5th, when he noted that it was curious that all the voting machine irregularities so far uncovered seem to favor Bush. In the meantime, the Washington Post and other media are now going through single-bullet-theory-like contortions to explain how the exit polls had failed.

But I agree with Fox's Dick Morris on this one, at least in large part. Wrapping up his story for The Hill, Morris wrote in his final paragraph, "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play."



Here's the link to the voter machine data:
http://www.truthisbetter.com/Florida_Election.htm




While a lot of that is just theory about how it was possible to hack in the big thing there are the counties with clear democratic registration majorities who voted clearly for bush. That just seems fishy to me.

You guys have all seen me shunning people for coming up with this stuff but this isnt just a wild accusation using a quote from the diebold guy. Its real numbers showing something that i really dont think couldve happened.
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. no matter how bad this looks
exit polls are not proof, and this argument will not hold up in any court.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Actually, Exit Polls Are Used To Validate Voting Tallies In Emerging
Democracies.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Actually, Exit Polls Are Used To Validate Voting Tallies In Emerging
Democracies.

They are the blinking red light that requires a closer look to find out what is going wrong.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. So you present the evidence but still don't believe it?
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lessthanjake Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. This isnt about exit poll numbers
I am talking about the thing at the beginning with the counties voting for bush when they had huge dem majorities.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. While the deviations from the exit polls
may seem damning to us, at best it is anecdotal evidence. However, districts where more votes were cast than actual registered voters are real evidence. The problem is they will claim "machine error" and that not enough votes were spoiled to be statstically significant. Also important are reported and witnessed incidents of voter intimidation but those are subject to claims of hearsay (heresay? heresy?). Any single incident of those above can be dismissed but when taken altogether across so many states and districts is compelling evidence for a general misvote. Getting the repugs to admit as such though... :-(
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Again, Exit Polls Function As A Flashing Red Light. They Are VALID
and ACCEPTED means of pointing to FRAUD.

They work throughout the world.

Why is the United States the only place where they don't work.

And why do they not work only in counties where there is paperless e-voting? Because the correlation exists.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. why why why
I can't understand and I find it very frustrating and disturbing that people are trying to suppress the conversation about this.

Exit polls that vary wildly from actual results precinct to precinct are absolutely MORE than sufficient evidence for a full and thorough auditing of the results is warranted. This is not only common sense, it is standard election verification and validation procedure.

I see poster after poster today authoritatively dismissing these threads and "debunking" the "theories."

ALL of the debunkers are making a fundamnetal error. This is in the investigative stage, so demanding "proof" is nonsense. By that logic, a police detective could question no suspect and look at no eveidence until and unless he could prove the suspect guilty. Obviously, under those restraints, no crime wouuld ever be solved.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I'm With You On This !!! - And They Never Give Reasons For...
their attempts at poo-pooing these emerging facts!

What are they afraid of???

:shrug:
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. turning things around
The "debunkers" keep turning things around here and distracting people.

The burden of proof is on our officials, it is not on us. That is the essence of our theory of a government that belongs to the people.

If we have ANY suspicion - and we have a LOT - then that is more than enough to demand that the officials involved prove to us that the elections are clean.

To turn this around and put the burden of proof on the people is tantamount to embracing and apologizing for the totalitarianism that this adminstration already has planned for all of us.

If this doesn't matter to people, nothing ever will.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Very Well Said... Thank You !!!
:yourock:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. try to have a more negative outlook
why would anyone want these conversations suppressed? Who would want them supressed? what would they do if they were going to try to suppress them, and so on.

Would they infest themselves on a democratic website and cast doubt on the possibility of it (called "viral marketing")

I, being a negative, cynical person, would answer this in the affirmative.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. No way all those democrats voted for Bush
1-5%, maybe even 10% I could believe. But in some places 50% reportedly voted for Bush.
No fuckin way
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bagnana Donating Member (858 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. what were the numbers in 2000? Anyone know?
Why were these particular counties overwhelmingly democratic? Were they dixiecrat bigots who stayed dem but vote repub? Seems we would need this info. before trumpeting those counties' voting records.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. If Kerry hadn't surrendered to quickly, we might have had a chance.
Kerry promised us that every vote would count. But when the fight was about to begin, Kerry surrendered.

The Republicans were right, he is a flip-flopper.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. confusion
What Kerry does and investigating election fraud are two entirely separate issues, and confusing them is not helpful.

Our votes belong to us, not to Kerry and not to the Democratic party.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. well said.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. You're exactly right
this investigation is gonna take awhile, even though the data is coming in fast. The evidence you have and what you can prove is the difference in a conviction--Kerry being a prosecutor knows this. It is so important for this investigation to continue whether Kerry conceeded or not. We have to know that our elections are fair and our votes do count. I DO however hope that Kerry is looking close at these numbers and working to find out what the hell really happened. If he wasn't --then I would be upset, but for now, I'm holding out for the truth--
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. No, we GAVE our votes to Kerry
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 08:06 AM by brainshrub
and instead of fighting and protecting them, he surrendered to the school bully without a fight.

Without Kerry to take the fight to the courts and the media, it does not matter if is proven that there was fraud. The news will be shoveled to the back of the papers, next to he articles about the last sighting of Elvis.

Perhaps four years from now we will have a candidate with the fortitude to fight for the votes that are given to him.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. I agree with you, but our opinion isn't very popular. :)
It would be interesting to do a poll, but I think that should wait until things are a bit more settled.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. This, in and of itself, is not evidence of fraud
It would be very damning SUPPORTING evidence if proof of actual irregularities can be found.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Indeed, The Exit Polls Are The Highly Painful Sympton Of The Disease...
One needs to do biopsies, exploratory surgery and x-rays to determine what the actual disease is causing that painful sympton.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. this is more than sufficient
The burden of proof is this - is there sufficient evidence to suggest the possibility of fraud to warrant a full and thorough investigation?

The answer to that question - the question that is appropriate at this stage, and the ONLY question that could be asked in the initial stage of the process - is an unqualified anbd definite "yes."
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. How these counties voted in 2000 plus comparison with Gadsen County.
How these counties voted in 2000:

In rural Baker County, just west of Jacksonville, Bush received 5611 votes to Gore's 2392.

In rural Dixie County Bush received 2697 votes to Gore's 1827.

In Franklin County, Apalachicola area, Bush received 2454 to Gore's 2047.

To contrast Gadsen County, heavily African American, gave Bush 4770 votes in 2000 and Gore 9736. In 2004, Kerry received 14,610 votes to Bush's 6236. Bush's percentage rose from 30% to 32.8%. Kerry received 70% of the vote, compared to Bush's 30%. Turnout increased dramatically, up almost 30%! There was also a race for sheriff with an African American candidate who won the race and even increased his margin after the recount.

There is an article in tonight's New York Times about how the Republicans turned out the vote in Florida. You might want to read it. I think, too, that many of those registered in these counties you mentioned are closer to "Zell Miller" type Democrats.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/07/politics/campaign/07f...

LAND O LAKES, Fla., Nov. 5 - Pasco County might be unheard of outside Florida, but that did not stop President Bush, Rudolph W. Giuliani and other Republican luminaries from visiting as Election Day approached. This rapidly growing place north of Tampa, where shopping centers, road extensions and subdivisions open by the month, supported Al Gore in 2000 and Bill Clinton in the two previous elections. But since Mr. Gore's bitter defeat, thousands of middle-class families, many of them Republican and independent,

have joined the many Democratic retirees who used to dominate here, making it a prime target for Gov. Jeb Bush, his brother and a vast army of Republican volunteers eager to erase the stain of the 36-day stalemate of 2000.

Their efforts paid off. While Democrats placed their emphasis on the state's urban centers and dispatched thousands of lawyers in a defensive effort to avoid mistakes they made four years ago, the Bush campaign concentrated on the new face of Florida, winning a margin of nearly 20,000 votes in Pasco and racking up many thousands more in counties like it.

What happened in Pasco County is what happened in suburban and rural communities throughout Florida. The Bush campaign lavished these communities with attention while Senator John Kerry's campaign and the independent groups working on its behalf invested most of their resources in cities like Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa and Orlando. The Republican strategy succeeded most along the Interstate 4 corridor in central Florida, where Mr. Bush's pledges to quash terrorism and promote traditional values appealed to the mostly white, middle-class, religious-leaning population.

Mr. Bush held rallies in out-of-the-way places like Gainesville, Niceville, New Port Richey and the Villages, a giant subdivision in Central Florida, while not neglecting conservative cities like Pensacola and even making several stops in Palm Beach County, a Democratic stronghold. But it was aggressive grass-roots efforts in new population centers like Pasco that Republicans say turned out record numbers of Bush supporters on Election Day, expanding a 537-vote margin four years ago to nearly 400,000 votes this year.

more...
 
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm wondering if Zogby (spell?)
might look into this?? Didn't they say Kerry wins with 311 electoral votes? And I thought they were valued for their accuracy? Now wouldn't they want to find out what happened? I don't know, just asking.

And isn't it easier to believe the bbv was rigged rather than all the people who were interviewed by exit poling were lieing or goofing? How would you convince all those people to participate in that?

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lessthanjake Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Zogby is just a pollster
He was wrong horribly when it came to state predictions last time too.

Regular polling isnt always accurate.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. This is the key part of the above article:
"When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat."

This guy, Jeff Fisher apparently has proof of who and how. Doesn't look good for Bushy.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is key
"Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002"...

This is pretty interesting stuff, eh? :evilgrin:
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Looks like Fisher is just getting started, lets watch this close
and pitch in some dough for full body armor for Fisher.
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OnceAndFutureTruth Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here is something to help convince people that they should look into this.
A Gallup poll taken on November 4, two days AFTER the election, found that 23% of Americans believe the Bush win was not "fair and square" as stated on the Gallup website. That is a HUGE number of people to question election results in a democracy. (Note that the poll's results are stated differently than I have stated them, which may be why this poll has gone under the radar. Nevertheless, the way I am stating these results is accurate.) That nearly a quarter of Americans believe this is something that could be mentioned in concert with any other issues that need to be brought to media or others, as it will lend validity to the questioning of the election results.

http://www.gallup.com
(its on the first page, toward the left, at the bottom)

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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. That's interesting, and I hope the Dems take advantage of this!
Start spreading rumors to prime people's interest! Bush is going down hard!
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-06-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. He's up against Satan himself
Karl Rove.
I pray that nothing weird happens to this guy. Sorry I just won't put anything past this vile administration.
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