A desperate Kerry attacks Dean with bush lite math...

[sfecap]

"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times," Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) told NBC's "Meet the Press."

What Kerry didn't say is that this bit of dramatic bush lite math only works in one instance, which he apparently didn't choose to elaborate on.

For instance, it's not true if you are single and have an AGI of 40K. It's not true if you are married and have no children and an AGI of 40K. It's not true if you are married and have one child and an AGI of 40K.

Ironically, Kerry seems to only care about the "middle class" tax burden while attacking Dean. He voted against the bush tax cut, which gave the dramatic tax relief to this hypothetical family with two children making 40K per year.

It was a serious error in judgement for Kerry to make this attack. He sounds foolish.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess.

[Cheswick2.0]

1. is it okay to tax those making 40k more because they are single?

Why not just tax the filthy rich like any other good democrat?

[sfecap]

3. Love that tag line!!

n/t

[blm]

2. You prefer Dean's style of lying about the others.

You know...that they voted for Bush's tax cut for the wealthiest. That they raised taxes on people in NH.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml

>>>>>
I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.

Dean also criticized his opponents for voting to give Bush a "blank check" on military intervention in Iraq - and, now, changing their tune on the issue.

"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."
>>>>

Gee...also note that Dean SUPPORTED DISARMING SADDAM USING MULTILATERAL ACTION...you know, like the Iraq resolution.

[sfecap]

4. So sad...your guy is so lame...

Like I said...desperate time, huh?

Do you want to discuss why Kerry votes with bush's policies 72% of the time?

[Karmadillo]

6. Of course, he usually votes with Senator Kennedy, but feel

free to pretend he's a Republican. It's your right as a participant on an internet discussion board.

http://wittysworld.com/john_kerry.htm

"Kerry is . . . a man who opposes the death penalty, wants to restrict access to guns and voted against the resolution approving the start of ground operations against Saddam Hussein in 1991 -- just what you would expect from Ted Kennedy's partner and Michael Dukakis's running mate . . . ." (David S. Broder, "Testing The '04 Waters," The Washington Post, June 5, 2002)

THE FACTS ABOUT SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA)

KERRY: A NORTHEASTERN LIBERAL AND DUKAKIS'S LT. GOV. WHO VOTES LOCKSTEP WITH TED KENNEDY

On Key Votes, Kerry Voted 100% Of The Time With Senator Kennedy In 2001, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, and 1985. Over the course of his Senate career, Kerry has sided with Senator Kennedy 94% of the time for key votes.

more...

[blm]

9. Nice nonanswer.

Democrats in Vermont said that Dean supported the Republicans OVER them MOST of the time.

[XanaDUer]

10. Where do you get that figure of Kerry voting for Bush's policies

72% of the time?

On the American Conservatives' Union scale, Kerry votes against Repuke bills 94% of the time.

John Kerry's scale as a Liberal


Scorecards
ADA ACLU AFS LCV CON ITIC NTU COC ACU NTLC CHC
1999 90 71 85 86 63 83 13 53 12 3 15

2000 95 - 100 100 45 - 11 53 0 - -


KEY

ADA – Americans for Democratic Action
ACLU – American Civil Liberties Union
AFS – American Federation of State County & Municipal Employees
LCV – League of Conservation Voters
CON – Concord Coalition
ITIC – Information Technology Industry Council
NTU – National Taxpayers Union
COC – Chamber of Commerce of the United States
ACU – American Conservative Union
NTLC – National Tax-Limitation Committee
CHC – Christian Coalition

http://www.cse.org/processor/printer.php?issue_id=1476

Where do you get that figure, respectfully asked? These organizations base their ratings on voting records for "liberal" or "conservative" ratings.

[dsc]

13. The 72% is probably technically correct

but is also definately highly misleading. The Senate has lots and lots of votes that are often unanimous. All kinds of small potatoes appointees, resolutions making apples the offical fruit, etc. Even Wellstone was around 60% on this scale. Look up Kerry on votesmart and it should be on his profile.

[ButterflyBlood]

21. correct

I heard this a lot during the 2002 elections (I won't vote for the guy in my state because he votes with Bush more than 70% of the time!)

Barbara Boxer has a 65%. Zell Miller has a 92% and Trent Lott has a 100%. So in fact a 72% is actually rather liberal.

[dansolo]

16. Dean said that Bush had not made his case for the resolution

Dean has said that he would have supported the actions laid out in the resolution if the case was made for action to be taken. He also clearly said that the case hadn't been made. And now that we are finding out that the stuff that Dean didn't believe has turned out to be lies, he was completely correct in objecting to voting for the resolution.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

22. Wrong!

Gee...also note that Dean SUPPORTED DISARMING SADDAM USING MULTILATERAL ACTION...you know, like the Iraq resolution.

That is WRONG! The Iraq resolution clearly stated that Bush was authorised to disarm Iraq either through the UN or, if UN support was withheld, unilaterally.

I suggest you reread the resolution.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

5. Dean responded

to this on CNN inside politics/crossfire (joint show today) this afternoon. I'm glad he was given a chance to respond, because Kerry is clearly grasping at straws to bring Dean down, since Kerry's message on its own isn't bringing him up.

[SayitAintSo]

18. And he (Dean) was grasping in his response ...

He basically gave a series of 'non answer' diversions to avoid the specifics until Woodruff cut him off.

[seaglass]

7. Do you have a link for this, I'd like to read it myself as

I missed this part of the conversation.

[newyawker99]

23. Hi HopeLives!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Pepperbelly]

8. So far ...

All I am hearing is, "you are." "I'm not." "You are." "I'm not."

I do not know who is telling the truth IF anyone and the partisan's responses to this thread have not helped at all. Anyone have a clue where the actual facts might be found?

[Karmadillo]

11. Here are a couple of links re: Kerry on tax repeal

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/01/kerry_says_army_should_grow_by_40000/

<edit>

In addition, Kerry started naming names, saying Dean and another rival, Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri, would hurt the middle class because they favor repealing President Bush's tax cut package, including increases in child tax credits and changes to the so-called marriage penalty.

"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times, and I don't want to do that," Kerry said on NBC's "Meet the Press," breaking with his past practice of referring to his rivals only in general terms.

more...

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2003/08/31/economic_focus_helps_kerry/

<edit>

It sounds tough, and it appeals to the anti-Bush in most Democrats these days, to call for the repeal of all of the tax cuts. However, that means far more than the unconscionable slashes in the top rate paid by the most wealthy, the cut in taxes on stock dividends, and the lowered capital gains rate.

It also means the recent increases in the child tax credit, the new bottom rate of 10 percent, the much broader 15 percent bracket, and the easing of the so-called marriage penalty. This is where working America lives in tax terms and the impact of complete repeal would be enormous, both on families with a tough enough struggle to make ends meet and on a fragile economy that needs more, not less, consumer spending.

This portion of Kerry's speech deserves repeating: "We shouldn't make it harder for middle-class families to make ends meet and we shouldn't turn our backs on making the 21st century work for all of us. But some in my party are so angry at George Bush and his unfair tax cuts that they think the solution is to do the exact opposite."

Anger, the source of Dean's surge, is a poor substitute for sound policy. His proposal would raise the income tax burden on middle-income households by as much as $2,000 a year, putting a ridiculously brutal squeeze on families, the elderly included, that are being pinched by hard times and the rising cost of essentials as never before.

Kerry's proposal shows how concentrating on the top-rate tax cuts and other high-income areas yields more than enough money to stimulate the economy in the short-term, but also to slash the deficit over time so massive federal borrowing doesn't choke off recovery.

more...

[w4rma]

15. repeal of Bush's tax cuts so…we can provide…healthcare…fiscal discipline

…
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.
…
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

[Pepperbelly]

17. actually .... I would prefer ...

some justification for eliminating the 10% bracket and the Child Tzx credit. Does Dean want to do that?

[Karmadillo]

19. Just for the record, Kerry's health care plan would also

be paid for out of a repeal (partial) of the Bush tax cut. If my understanding is correct, the difference between the two positions (partial v. whole repeal) is that Dean would like to use a total rollback to balance the budget while Kerry seeks only to reduce the deficit by 1/2 in his first term. I've been hoping for an enlightening discussion as to the merits of each position, but the threads tend to die before much develops.

[Jacobin]

12. Possibly technically correct in one or two strange situations.

Let's say that a 40,000 income earner married, after deductions for this that and the other and child credits blah blah blah has a tax bill of $5. At that income level with 3 or 4 kids and deductions, not at all an unlikely event. Maybe when the tax cut is undone, with those same calculations wit the old brackets he would owe $100. Voila a 20 times tax increase.

Yeah, well....maybe technically correct in a couple of situations, but not at all correct in the overall sense. And the multiple would not be proportional anywhere on the tax scale to a 20 times increase.

It's chickenshit political splorp that makes me discredit what Kerry says even more. That, and he's for the war, against the war, for the war, against the war......

[Karmadillo]

14. Here's a link to an earlier DU discussion of the Dean/Kerry tax positions

if anyone is interested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=257465&mesg_id=257465

[RogueTrooper]

20. It is a foolish mistake to make

indeed.