Greg Palast and what I've been writing here for months

[malatesta1137]

Ever since I joined DU, I've posted repeatedly about the irrelevance of the left's struggle to win the country back. The theft of the election had been locked for months and there was nothing anyone could've done to prevent it. Neither Kerry, Clinton nor anyone else could have prevented this. Not only the Presidential election was stolen again, but all the Senate and House losses were all orchestrated a long time before one single vote was cast.

I was called 'negative,' 'defeatist' and that I was playing into Karl Rove's dirty tricks.

I was shocked to read that many DUers truly believed that the votes would be actually counted properly. That's why we lost. The left tried to win honestly. We can only get our country back when we realize that we have to be just as dishonest, or worse, than the Republicans.

http://www.gregpalast.com/

[peacetalksforall]

1. The question is either:

Did the end of our country start with stealth repub thieves and all their illusions and delusions and hypocrisy?

Will the end of our country start when we join them as thieves, illusionists, delusionsists?

[malatesta1137]

3. in order to save America

we HAVE to be as dirty as they are. It's not a permanent solution, it's a necessity for now.

Or you are for simply rolling over and playing dead like Kerry did yesterday?

[SeanQ]

13. We DO NOT have to be as 'dirty' as they are,

but we DO need to fight, tooth and nail. We don't steal their votes. But we put 'brownshirts' in the vans delivering the ballots to make damn sure no one steals ours.

[malatesta1137]

17. lol

this was done this time, and you've seen the results.

[H2O Man]

18. Just curious:

can you be specific about what you advocate in terms of "playing dirty"?

I agree that the computerized voting created a huge risk. I'm not a computer wiz, but my son told me that it would be easy to tamper with the results. He said that there are hundreds of teen-agers that have the ability to interfere with the programs being used, and that there was simply no way that republicans in "high risk" areas would not cheat.

I'm going to assume that you would not be saying the democrats should likewise cheat. Even if our party had the access to the computers, I don't think we want to become as criminal as them. If that is your position, then I'm not interested in anything else you have to say.

But if you have an idea of something progressive that can actually be done, please share it with us.

[peacetalksforall]

19. No way am I rolling over. I agree that Kerry did. I just don't want to

have to match Rove and the cabal in their criminality. It is just not being dirty to them...it is being criminal. So, it is a matter of drawing a line and not crossing the law. I don't want to support them ever because of their rotten and criminal and non-american traits. I can't join anything that matches that aspect - but I think we can match their exquisite orchestration and foresight (they knew years ago that getting their own into local and state civic positions would serve them well and it has). We don't have destroy anyone's character among us. We don't have to blatantly lie and steal.

Do define dirty. Good subject matter.

[displacedtexan]

2. Me, too.

I wrote about this on my blog yesterday and today (and how I'm coping with the creeping fascism):
http://ascrivenerslament.blogspot.com/

[library_max]

4. Forget it. They have all the money and no conscience.

We can't play their game and win. Our game was to make government actually work, like Clinton did. But they've cemented their control over the process now, so we won't get any more chances to do that. They're the PRI now, the institutional party of a one-party state.

[BayStateBoy]

5. This is at best a Tainted election, and possibly a stolen one

and that is how we must label it NOW

The history of democratic voting is a history of ballot recounts and the ability to do same.

The legitimacy of democratic elections is inexorably predicated upon the electorate's ability to verify the results which is only possible with a tangible ballot.

A ballot that cannot be physically verified or interrogated is no different than a vote by someone with no verifiable name or address.

[mbee]

6. It is either what you are saying or that the Dems wanted to lose to

help Hillary in 2008 or maybe a little of both. I could never figure out how the Democrats thought they could win with the election fraud that was in place. The campaign was a complete waste of time. What would happen if we just said the left wasn't going to run anyone because the votes aren't going to be counted?

[malatesta1137]

8. Kerry didn't want to lose

and he busted his behind to win. But he too thought the votes would be actually counted.

Hillary will/should not run in 2008. She's hated by the evangelical nutbags even more than her husband. She'd barely get 35% of the vote.

[goddess40]

15. Then why did he fold so easily?

I think he wanted to win too, but the conceding with the fight he promised us just leaves me feeling betrayed.

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. That is the one question I would really like a honest answer to.

After saying he wouldn't concede until ALL THE VOTES were COUNTED, he folded in record time. :shrug:

[library_max]

9. We should run someone like Al Sharpton in 2008.

We should forget about winning, because we're not going to, and just run a protest candidate who will use the publicity to razz the administration about everything they say and do. That's going to be our role for the foreseeable future - mocking and pointing fingers at the establishment, from the outside.

[brainshrub]

14. You mean someone funded by the RNC?

Great idea! We might actually win.

[hlthe2b]

7. Where is his article on Tom Paine--anyone found it?

[malatesta1137]

24. link

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

[dbt]

10. Kick!

I was dumb enough to think that this election would not be close enough to steal. And the exit polls were showing that very thing. Enter Diebold...

:freak:
dbt

[Selwynn]

12. There is a reason why skinner BANNED posting exit polls

Because they are bullshit and meaningless, and often used for political manipulation.

and everyone agreed with that at the beginning of the day on Nov 2. That is, until they started going our way. Now that we lost, it seems that suddenly exit polls are the infallible sacrosanct tool of honest reflecting on election results... :wtf:

[malatesta1137]

21. banned?

I don't think so, they were allowed here later weren't they?

Exit polls were correct in EVERY state in which there are paper trails. Karl Rove wants you to believe that exit polls are BS, don't be fooled again.

http://www.rense.com/general59/steI.HTM

[Selwynn]

11. Doesn't anyone have any concerns about the attitude that says:

If we lose, then someone cheated, lied, stole, etc.

What would it have taken for your to concede graciously in 2004? By that I mean, what would have needed to happen in order for you to say, "yes I concede that we just lost, plain and simple." Because for some of you I don't think there is ANY CONDITION IN which you would say that.

Isn't it at least a little bit concerning to have an attitude that already has a made-up mind about the election? I mean nothing anyone could possibly say to you would change your mind, and that kind of entrenched position scares me.

[goddess40]

16. Ohio was promise to bush long ago - so we don't even look for fraud?

Diebold promised to deliver Ohio's votes and they did just that, and the dems are too, lazy, stupid, defeated, in the republican pocket... to do anything about it. They didn't even put up a fake fight like they did with Gore.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

Kerry Won
Greg Palast
November 04, 2004


Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States,
about 3 percent of votes cast are voided—known as "spoilage" in
election jargon—because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Palast's
investigation suggests that if Ohio's discarded ballots were
counted, Kerry would have won the state. Today the Cleveland Plain
Dealer reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in
Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000
provisional ballots.



While I realize that there is nothing we can do about it since Kerry
rolled over for them it does tell us that bush doesn't have any
where near a mandate. I wanted to post this so that you didn't
think I was some raving lunatic looking for conspiracies. (I do
believe that they padded the votes in the red states, especially
those that used computers, so Kerry couldn't get the popular vote as
Gore had. Why the red states - because they knew no one would ask
for a recount in those states)

[glitch]

22. Try to look at the facts and not react emotionally.

"what would have needed to happen in order for you to say, "yes I concede that we just lost, plain and simple."

Just all the votes counted and when machine counted verified by random handcounts.

Really pretty simple and yet somehow not obtainable in America.

[malatesta1137]

23. so

it's rolling over and playing dead with you, apparently.

There's more than enough evidence that they stole it again. Greg Palast is an award-winning journalist and he knows what he's writing about.

Also:

http://www.rense.com/general59/steI.HTM

[SeattleRob]

25. Don't Ignore history

What happened in 2000 is very well documented. The problem is that many in the Democratic Party leadership have the attitude of
"Yes, sir. May I have another?" We need to stand up for what is right because these people, despite their claims of morality, do not have any morals when it comes to winning elections.

[Cinletharwi]

26. Follow the puppet-strings

You'll see that ultimately, they lead to Corporate control of our media, our politicians, our government at large

Vote with your dollars, the only Democratic votes they will ever count again