I Think This Election Will Change The Way We Talk About Abortion

[THUNDER HANDS]

And I don't necessarily believe this is a bad thing.

Hear me out on this.

What I think we need to do, as a party, is merge the economic issues we hold an advantage on and the social issues we have a disadvantage on.

We need to do the following:

Instead of saying "I support a woman's right to choose. I believe abortion is a fundamental right."

We need to say:

"I believe we can reduce the number of abortions in America by improving the economic conditions that lead young women to turn to abortion. Only by making women more financially secure can we create a climate where women feel safe enough to bring a child into this world where a young boy or girl can grow up loved and be given all the support they need to have a wonderful and respected life."

Then we hit the GOP with their economic policies and link it to the increased number of abortions that occur during Republican presidencies.

In 2008 I want to see our candidate say this:

"The previous president claimed to want to create a culture that respects all life. But his economic policies have created a climate where women fear bringing a child into this world. The number of abortions have increased over the past eight years. If any American out there truly respects life and wants to reduce the number of abortions they will join me in fighting for an environment where women can afford to raise a child and choose life."

It's all about the wording. Not the laws.

[Tesibria]

1. rhetoric has become reality

... i agree with the gist of what you've said. the "Red Regime" has become a master at framing the issue.

The Patriot Act

nuf said.

We HAVE to hit them head-on with this issue. How we do that without compromising our own values -- is what we need to figure out.

[yardwork]

2. I respect that thought.

I have another suggestion. Let's call their bluff. No way in hell will the Republicans ever overturn Roe v Wade. If they do that they lose their winningest wedge issue.

Election after election, the sheeple dutifully vote for the "Christian" candidates who always promise to outlaw abortion, but Christmas never comes. Let's remind the sheeple of this broken promise.

Starte asking your fundie friends what the right-wing controlled White House, Congress, and Supreme Court are waiting for. I'm serious.

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. well

its easy to say that, but it's also easy to rebut. They need to knock off one pro-chioce SC justice.

But assuming that the only retirements in the Bush 2nd term will already be pro-life justices - Rehnquist, for sure, then they can still hold that over their base's heads for a few more years.

Only if O'Connor or Ginsburg or Breyer retire will it be put up or shut up time for the GOP.

[bettyellen]

20. it's not called pro life if you also support the death penalty......

it's anti choice , thank you. and pander to their moral judgement, minimize the importance of choice, no. That's just bullshit. Sorry, no pandering to the moralists on this, they are also taking away sex ed and contraception -- they are fighting funding for this all over the world, they don't want to give condoms (or generic drugs) to people living in the midst the epidemic in Africa. What makes you think they have an intersest in helping a young woman choose her own reproductive future, No, the only thing they support is abstinence and marraige.
It's not anything we can compromise on or pander to. No way.

[THUNDER HANDS]

21. if you can't compromise in your rhetoric

you'll never have an opportunity to compromise on your beliefs, because you'll be powerless and your beliefs won't mean anything. At least at the rate we're going right now.

[bettyellen]

24. why would i want the "opportunity to compromise my beliefs",

My beliefs are shared by a lot of of people, and they are not going anywhere or becoming compromised to pander to people who want us to live in the outmoded patriarchal model society of man women married + as many babies as god gives you. Women are not about to pay lip service to that nonsense after two generations of choice.
Either you believe in sexual and reproductive freedom or you don't. Bush will not support it, did you read about this anywhere lately? We are the only country who is not supporting a global initiative and end to poverty and AIDS much in the ways you described above. Why? Bush says we won't support sexual freedom, the former "cuntsman" now "believes" everybody should get married. That's the party line, and exactly how do you see a compromise coming with that archaic mind set?
Wake up. it's not up for negotiation.
You don't understand their complete intolerance on this issue at all or that fact that these same people hate the idea of a "govt handout" to help lift people out of poverty. The main attitude floating around is mainly fuck you, you should have kept your legs closed girl , so now you and your baby can starve cause you should have thought of that beforehand, not that we want you to think or know about birth control, because then you might have sex and get away with it. You are kidding yourself that you have their ear at all after you tell the part about money going to urban gynecologists. They are marginalizing the field women's reproductive health because they believe good virgins/ wives will hardly need it. No AIDS, no unwanted babies, no worries.
I'd be willing to guess you are either a man, who agrees with abortion in theory only, or really conflicted about it yourself. Fair enough. but you are talking about people who actually care about this paying lip service to narrow minded, liberal/ minority hating group (who have ignored your old argument for years) and it won't work because the compassionate part of compassionate conservative is complete bullshit. They stop listening after the first part, and will feel like they are paying heathens to have sex w/out consequences. Oh, they want the consequences there alright, don't kid yourself.
My standards, my needs and desires, yeah, they get compromised. My beliefs? That's just impossible. Perhaps it's not really one of your own beliefs.

[yardwork]

22. Actually, I think O'Connor would vote against Roe v Wade today

and if Congress was willing to attempt a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages, why didn't they attempt a constitutional amendment to ban abortion?

I'm not giving them an inch. Hold the right-wing's feet to the fire.

I DARE them to overturn Roe v Wade or pass a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion. I DOUBLE DARE them!

They won't do it. We call their bluff on this and we erase a major wedge weapon from their arsenal. I mean it.

[Time4Change]

6. Agree 100%

I told some RWers today that it's time for them to do it. Overturn R v. W and ban abortion. They told me "that't not going to happen."

Why Not? Because they need the issue to claim moral superiority.

I say we put the pressure on them every single day.

If this is what they are running on and using it as a wedge issue, then back up your talk.

They allowed the RR to capture this election, now let them act.

[yardwork]

23. Welcome to DU and thank you for saying what I've been saying!

We need to band together as Democrats and demand that the Republicans put up or shut up on this issue, because I know that they will falter and be revealed as lying cowardly hypocrites. Their own wives and daughters would have a fit if they outlawed abortion.

We need to demand loudly that they put up or shut up. Badger a fundie to nag his or her congressman about this.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. That is a point they don't have an answer for.

I have been preaching it for two years now.

[davhill]

10. No, It will be overturned

The religous right will demand payback for delivering its voters and they will demand it immediately. As soon as the next Justice is on the bench it will be over turned. But then the battle will be fought for real in the states. Some of the Red-est states will recriminalize but most will not. Women seeking abortions will merely cross the state line to somewhere where it is legal or the laws are not enforced. Doctors will probably flee those states to ones where they can practice freely.

[finecraft]

16. I agree totally

See this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2590481

"PHILADELPHIA (AP) — The Republican expected to chair the Senate Judiciary Committee next year bluntly warned newly re-elected President Bush on Wednesday against putting forth Supreme Court nominees who would seek to overturn abortion rights or are otherwise too conservative to win confirmation.

Sen. Arlen Specter, fresh from winning a fifth term in Pennsylvania, also said the current Supreme Court now lacks legal "giants" on the bench.

"When you talk about judges who would change the right of a woman to choose, overturn Roe v. Wade, I think that is unlikely," Specter said, referring to the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion."

They are setting us up again to be nailed as the "obstructionist liberals". I agree with you...I think it's time we called their bluff. They don't want roe overturned, because they will lose their base.

[kestrel91316]

3. What about the phrase:..................

"Keep your laws off my body" is so difficult for everybody to understand and cope with??????

What is difficult to understand about the concept of medical privacy?????

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. you're not hearing me

that wording won't convince anyone. You're trying to get people to listen to you.

The question isn't overturning Roe v. Wade. Because that won't actually do much to reduce the number of abortions in America, which, if you ask any pro-life person, is what they want.

They need to realize this and we need to help them to realize this.

The goal is reducing the number of abortions - through effective birth control, through improving economic conditions for women, through anti-poverty programs, ect.

TIE economic issues to social issues and the Red State voters won't feel like they have to make a choice at all.

[meow2u3]

13. I've been saying this all along

No one listened to me--until now! Thanks, Magic Rat.

[Gloria]

4. Guest on Air America this evening said something similar...about

how we have to take the GOP on directly on these "moral issues" by saying how Dem policies support "moral issues" and GOP policies don't...

IE...how it is moral to provide healthcare...

This is sort of what Kerry was saying about "acts" being more important that rhetoric.....It needs to be expanded........

[Maat]

7. I guess I'm reluctant to become a GOP-lite-whore...

just to get into office.

I support abortion rights - period. If we used your wording...they would lose me...

[Kool Kitty]

11. I agree.

[saracat]

12. Me too. I won't sell myself for their morals.

I would rather close up shop and let them choke. I am so ashamed to be an American!

[bettyellen]

28. thank you. rat doesn't get it- trying to sway minority women w/ this

arguement. He has no clue about who he is trying to sway, cause the fundies love pouring $$ into the big city so poor heathens can have sex w/out consequences.
Thanks for cutting through the crap. But Rat doesn't get it.

[Hog lover]

14. I don't read this to outlaw abortion

It is just a word game. The Grand Old (Fascist) Party has used linguistics to their advantage ("No Child Left Behind" "Clean Air Act" etc.). The difference in the approach suggested here is that not only is it persuasive, but it is true. Lots of women have abortions because they just cannot make it financially - paying for the medical expenses and losing time from work are just the start - then you have a baby to take care of. Even if you give the child up for adoption, you still have lost time from work, etc.

Don't get me started!

[bettyellen]

26. It's not a game if it's a right you truly support.

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. why

I'm as pro-choice as anyone, but I see no need to go make the other side feel like I'm against them.

We just talked about this in a law class I had. A lot of women, espeically minority women, were pretty much against abortion.

But if you ask them if they could understand why a poor woman would want to have an abortion they say yes. And if you ask them if its better to reduce the number of abortions by putting women in a position where they feel that they can raise a child comfortably, or if women should be thrown in jail - they'll choose the former.

Its all about the wording, not the action. The GOP makes all its gains on words alone. They talk a GREAT game, but in terms of actually delivering, they fall really short.

It has nothing to do with no supporting the right to abortion, but by meeting these folks who disagree with us halfway by at the very least talking their talk - a respect for life and for improving conditions where all children who come into this world have a loving home and a family that can support them.

[bettyellen]

27. you couldn't be very pro choice or you would would know who "they" are

You are arguing as if these minority women were the ones working to rid of us of all sex ed, STD prevention and contraception. The minorities are not who have the president ear and a gun in his back, so they are not who we have to "compromise" with, they are not in a position to do shit, they already vote Dem. Or at least they tried to.
If it's all about wording for you and not basic human rights, you don't get it at all. So, don't do us any favors with your strategy. Leave it to those for whom it really matters.

[bettyellen]

25. Yes, they woulsd lose a lot of women. All sexual/ repro freedoms deserve..

our support, they are under dire attack from fundies. Thia rat person has to be a man or trult conflicted to take it so lightly. If he takes it so lightly, why would he start a thread. He actually said I would want the opportunity to "compromise my belief". I don't get him at all.
Tks for the sane and thoughtful response.

[noamnety]

17. I've been saying this also

nobody's been listening. Democrats really are the pro-life AND the pro-choice party, the two coexist. The republicans are anti-choice, but their policies are not pro-life.

That needs to be our rallying cry. Their policies are not pro-life.

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. yes

their policies are actually the polar opposite of what China does. They force women to have abortions. We'd be forcing them not to.

Both are fundamentally wrong.

But the key is talking like someone who is pro life (not anti-abortion) and legislating like someone who is pro choice.

[Blue_Roses]

18. I agree and also they need to make an issue of proper birth control

education. Educating about birth controls lowers the amount of abortions. I have never thought this subject needs to be about abortion, but how to avert the possibility of being faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Fundies don't like the idea of the their children taking birth control pills, but let's face reality--sixteen year-old boys and girls in a car are not armed with enough will power to abstain if they wanted to. In a perfect world maybe, but this is reality.

AS a counselor who worked with women facing unplanned pregnancies, I saw my share of girls--not women--who came in with their southern baptist mothers. Being southern baptist doesn't take away your sex drive, but reality helps to understand it.

[religiousleft]

29. How I learned to support safe, legal abortions

was that I was there before they were either. I think that both sides of this conversation have been stridently slinging our slogans for so long that we've forgotten that legal abortions were never about "choice" they were about compassion for women (and often girls) who felt they had no option but to violate themselves with an abortion and had to do so in some squalid motel room or on their own kitchen table.

When I was a boy in Los Angeles, my mother and other women from the church organized to help young girls 12,13,16 years old who came in hordes on greyhound buses to our state because they couldn't get abortions in Arizona, Nevada, Utah and New Mexico. Before abortion was legal in CA one of our neighbors (16) died of Hepatitis from a procedure that was performed on her in Tijuana.

The truth is that nobody really likes abortions. And the truth is that women have been forced by their circumstances or their fears to terminate pregnancies for as long as there is recorded medical history. We have to tell this story anecdotally. Our opponents tell the story of X amount of dead babies a year, which is a sad story and which communicates their moral position. Our story is a poor woman dead with a coat-hanger in her uterus, a 14 year-old runaway being met by pimps and scoundrels as she searches for someone to abort the pregnancy caused by her mothers boyfriend, a 25 year old mother of two who dies of sepsis because her physician is prohibited from removing the dying child in her birth canal.

[catzies]

30. Your story puts faces on this issue and that's what we need.

Clear, simple language that says women will DIE again. Horrible, needless deaths.

I just want to shout at the Christofascists sometimes.

[Jade Fox]

31. I respect your intentions....

but your being too abstract for the anti-abortion folks.

They love to wax hysterical about abortion because they love the vision
of saving cute little (white) babies. Think about it: an unborn baby is
a blank slate. You can create it in any image you want, and its conveniently
unable to speak for itself. You are trying to appeal to logic.

The other hidden issue of the anti-abortion movement is that it is not
really about ending abortions. Anyone who thinks about it for two seconds
will realize that making abortions illegal will do nothing to stop them.
The right-to-lifers are deeply hostile to sexuality in general and female
sexuality specifically. If you screw around, you have to pay. Their agenda
is control of sexuality. What else could explain their objections to the
morning after pill and even birth-contol?

Sorry to be a wet-blanket here. I appreciate your effort.