I'm sorry, but I do not buy the BBV as the reason we lost

[Walt Starr]

Flame away, but I'm not buying into it.

[ithacan]

1. why?

and how to explain the discrepancy, only in OH and FL, between exit polls and "official" counts?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. So what do you think it was, then?

----------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/

[Howardx]

3. whats your take on it walt?

i dont know what i think yet

[UpsideDownFlag]

4. we sort of know that already.

you've blamed gun control and a plethora of other reasons. try and keep it all in the same thread.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. Palast says 1 million Kerry votes were supressed before E-Day,

so it wasn't all BBV, but it helped.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/an_election_spoiled_rotten.php

[bowens43]

6. So? Why should we care that you don't buy into it?

[xultar]

7. MORALITY...we just got beat y'all face up to it. The country becomes

more conservative every year.

All the blue-hairs and Nazis all moved and spread out from NV to FL to WV.

WE GOT BEAT cuz they wanna be ignorant stoopid retarded muther fukers

[napi21]

8. I agree with you. I don't think BBV was the cause!

I really think the religious right has been able to convince the majority of the country that maorality if THE MOST IMPORTANT issue in America.

I don't know how to change that!

[cheezus]

20. class war

if they want to do us against them, let's do it along lines that matter

[oldtime dfl_er]

36. the only way is to change the definition

of morality. This is what the repukes do all the time -- just change the definition.

[Sperk]

9. Really? Well, I'm not buying that it's a coincidence that only REPUGS

are against a paper trail......Christ, how more obvious does a stolen election have to get?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Junkdrawer]

10. Not the sole reason, but one of the largest...

And I think the time for denial on this issue is over.

[Walt Starr]

11. I've been asked why, here's my answer

Because the massive level of conspiracy required for such an action is astounding. Poll workers in more precincts than I would care to count would have to be in on the conspiracy. I suspect the number required to pull off such a conspiracy would approach, at a minimum, 500 to 600 people, and probably more. It just does not pass the smell test

You cannot keep something like this quiet. It would come out.

Sorry, but I cannot don the tinfoil on this one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Walt I know why you have doubts

the back doors in the GEMS software are such that you do not need the poll workers om this one. THey can leave storage pre programed

Also many of these machines have Infrared Ports, it can be done with any IR capable unit, such as my Windows CE device

Truet me, I am no comptue genious but after reading the material at Black Box Voting I realized you need one or two people at MOST per conty... one to authorize, and one to program certain, ahem situations that will trigger certain events ... such as the aaformetioned all Demo slate, leads to President and VP who are Republican.

Heck it could even be donne by DIebold Techs, who have access to the machines and the code is proprietary

Solution to this problem, paper trail... my personal view, pen and paper.

[Walt Starr]

39. One maybe two people in each county

How many countiess?

How many programmers had to be in on it?

How many higher ups had to know about it.

Exploring the theory rationally means you must discount it, especially when you see how few counties in Ohio actually had BBV!

[papau]

28. Walt - it requires only one programmer - not a big conspiracy. And

The Nixon attempt to steal Illinois in 1960 did indeed involve several hundred GOP folks who threw ballots out as they were transported about - and the only response then was "We count the ballots that are delivered to us" -

Only Chicago voting the dead saved the State for JFK.

And remember the delay in reporting in 1960 - as the reported votes were held back so they could be changed by the GOP -

Doesn't that sound like the Dem areas in Florida that were delayed by hours as the GOP count was added up from the Florida GOP areas?

This smells so much like 1960.

Only the Dems have gone honest - no more Mayor Daleys in Chicago, or gross violent actions to stop the other side from cheating.

I like an honest, non-violent response Dem party - but with the media refusing to call the GOP on their games, I wonder if this was the last election where we play nice. I really do not want to go back to Chicago 1960 politics - but I wonder what the alternative is given our media?

[stickdog]

42. Wrong. Do you know anything about computers?

With unauditable fraud-o-matic machines, any level of fraud could be effortlessly achieved by a SINGLE individual at any of several levels -- from capturing the vote on the machine all the way to maintaining the county totals. And the beautiful thing about it from the culprit's point of view is that by using proprietary systems without any ballot trail, it becomes extremely difficult to prove inconsistency, much less purposeful fraud.

Sorry, Walt, but anybody who doubts this is simply technically ignorant.

[BevHarris]

52. Walt, you know better:

Please comment on this: As you probably know, Andy and I have many inside sources. I know you are pretty good on computer stuff.

So what do you say about this:

1. The central tabulator is never audited in any meaningful way.
2. GEMS has two sets of books
3. For approximately 40 million votes, in 37 states, GEMS was connected to polling place voting machines via telephone modem using the following setup:

- unpatched Windows XP or 2000
- RAS
- username and password for the Global Election System AccuVote system: accuvote and global, respectively. Some newer systems have password "Diebold."
- Ports left open for shared access on c: drive
- Phone numbers provided to poll workers, troubleshooters, Diebold techs and "contract workers" (temporary workers, some got their jobs on hotjobs.com and monster.com and they had no background check.
- Phone numbers also leaked out in public records requests
- Vote tally database in MS Access with security disabled

Are you sure it would take a conspiracy of lots of people? We think one person can exploit the above.

Bev Harris
http://www.blackboxvoting.org
Black Box Voting

[Lost Creek]

12. IT WAS ONE OF SEVERAL REASONS

GET your head out of the hole

[Meritaten1]

13. I'm tired of reading postings with a "we lost" premise

The Ohio vote hasn't been counted yet, several states have not been called yet, all the Florida results are not yet in, the Republicans have a history (2000) of minimalizing Democratic voters and urging premature "concessions" and the voter turnout in the 2004 election was HUGE and should favor Democrats once all the votes are correctly tallied.

[Walt Starr]

18. Ohio is still in the realm of possibility

but could become mathematically impossible today. I accept that.

Ohio also did not have much BBV, and mostly in pro-* counties anyway!

[BevHarris]

53. Ohio had 6 touch-screen counties and lots of Diebold optical scan

I spent quite a bit of time in Ohio. By the way, what counts punch cards?

Oh yeah, I know: computers

[Liberal Veteran]

14. I have to agree with Walt on this one.

I won't rule out the possibility, but when push comes to shove I fall on the side of Occam's Razor.

The simplest explanation is this: The same socio-pathology that infected Germany in the 30's has infected America.

We have an overblown opinion of ourselves. We scapegoat the poor and minorities. We have propogandists and a ruling class that is feeding the masses what they want to hear. We have a military/industrial complex. We have the merging of politics and religion. We have disdain for intellectualism and human rights.

It's been simmering under this country since WW2. As long as we had the counterbalance of the USSR it was never allowed to get out of hand. Once that was gone, we found ourselves without direction and without a true enemy. That energy has now been utilized and directed in the most bastardized way imaginable.

[usurper4]

19. It sickens me to think it

But it is possible. Maybe the bulk of the US really DOES like war, likes sacrificing lives for no reason. It does scare me to contemplate what is in store for us in the next 4 years; every 2-term president has pushed forth the more extreme part of their agenda in the second term. Bush's first 4 years were EXTREME already...what will happen next?

[Walt Starr]

23. THAT'S THE REALITY HERE!

Tinfoil does not become us at this point.

It's all down to the number of provisional ballots in Ohio.

[Nicky Scarfo]

22. Very, very sharp analysis. Dead-on. nt

[tom_paine]

38. "The same socio-pathology that infected Germany in the 30's has infected

America."

Yes, I believe that it a large portion of it. That and all the Bushevik Propaganda Tentacles that have made lies and truth meaningless terms in our National Dialogue.

[sangh0]

43. I don't see how anyone could doubt it

After 93% said they approved of bush* after bush* flew around the nation on 9/11, intent on protecting his own butt.

[Djinn]

48. while I don't think it was THE reason

this time - sure as hell was last time - I think it certainly contributed and various dodgy dealings means that it's almost impossible to trust the electoral system in the US.

BTW Ockham's Razor is often misunderstood on this board - it doesn't hold that the simplest explanation is the most likely but that:

"Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" or "plurality should not be posited without necessity."

the neccessity bit is important - JFK"s assasination would have been most EASILY explained with the singular gunman theory - however the path of the bullets meant that it was NECCESARY to look for plurality.

Lots of people (mis)quote Ockham but no-one ever holds to it entirely - how many theists quote the theory??

[LittleClarkie]

51. WE are now the communists in their eyes

Yes, I can see what you're saying. They have no USSR, so the Dems become the communists they need to hate to survive.

I've actually heard and seen this. One old guy called every Dem from FDR to Kennedy to Clinton a socialist..

And I got called a communist just for being a Kerry supporter.

[donsu]

15. is it because your brain can't comprehend how a computer voting

machine works?

do you just believe in the goodness of men who wouldn't rig a voting machine?

reality scare you?

[Walt Starr]

21. Actually, I've been an IT professional for over two decades

Sorry, your accusation doesn;t hold water.

The conspiracy would have to involve too many people to be successful.

[bpilgrim]

24. BULLSHIT

one man can do a LOT in a networked environment and i know i work in one daily.

peace

[Walt Starr]

29. It doesn't pass the smell test, I'm sorry

I'm in charge of a large global network.

I do not buy it, and it's mote now because Kerry just conceded.

[bpilgrim]

33. fuck your god damn 'smell test'

i live in the age of science and i want to see the exit poll numbers and i want a big stink raised by our party leadership about these fraudulent voting practices.

and it is NOT fucking 'mote' cause our leaders PUNKED OUT again.

shame on you!

peace

[Liberal Veteran]

32. Sorry, but there is simply a much simpler explanation....

The American people are easily duped.

You start using religious leaders and 24/7 propaganda and you would be AMAZED at what can happen.

Do you 1930's Germany was the result of a conspiracy to rob the people of their vote?

Absolutely not.

It was the end result of a relentless attack against logic and finding a scapegoat coupled with rampant patriotism.

Dude the ingredients are there.

When the republicans won back Congress in the 90's they didn't do so with Diebold.

What you are doing is looking for a simplistic answer to a complex problem because that's the easy way to approach it.

[bpilgrim]

34. bullshit we have evidence of fraud

yall wanna go by your gut and be happy with that fine i have much higher standards!

peace

[Liberal Veteran]

37. By all means...explain the republicans gaining control of congress BEFORE.

...BBV.

Go ahead! I'm waiting.

Explain their consolidation of the media and the popularity of Faux News, Rush Limpballs, and Sean Hannity and even hatemongers like Michael Weiner.

Explain how places that don't even use BBV vote republican!

[bpilgrim]

40. rob georgia

Bald-Faced Lies About Black Box Voting Machines
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00078.htm

and they got the big bucks to do it.

no one is saying there are no republicans in america, hello...

we are pointing out FRAUD which we know exist.

you fucking explain why we don't have a paper trial.
why the exit polls don't agree in machine states.
why folks would wait 6 hours in line if they are happy with the current situation

we are being hustled but everyone is too SCARED to admit it or NAIVE.

peace

[noiretextatique]

45. it's this election that doesn't pass the smell test

i don't buy the results thus far. i do not believe * had enough votes to win...i will never believe it. something is terribly wrong with these results.

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Same here Walt....I don't rule out the possibility....

...but the fact remains that in order to pull this off, nearly all the programmers at Diebold would have to have been in on the conspiracy.

How many companies have you worked for where there were no democrats?

[bpilgrim]

35. BULLSHIT

code is written by teams of folks who only see their small part of the code they are responsible for, hello.

not that i think that will over come your gut evidence though.

peace

[Junkdrawer]

31. They do it with three steps:

1.) Legitimate code is modified and/or not repaired so as to include vulnerabilites.

2.) Insider access is provided via unsecured modem connections to the tabulating servers.

3.) The fraud, therefore, may be accomplished by a small group marginally connected to the main programming group.

Thus the software may be written by a group of above-the-board programmers and still allow for cheating to occur.

[stickdog]

47. Then you're a completely clueless IT professional.

God knows there are enough of them.

[Djinn]

50. how many people knew about the

removal of people from Florida's electoral roles last time? how many MORE people have known about since then...what difference did it make.

I'm with you this time - I think most people fell for the bullshit but that doesn't mean the theft of an election given the way you guys run them isn't comlpetely and utterly plausible

[bpilgrim]

16. Bill Kristol: *Actual* Bush vote 4-5% better than the exit polls....

buy that!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2577831&mesg_id=2577831&page=

psst... pass the word!

peace

[usurper4]

17. Voter apathy seems more likely

I hate to say it, because it seemed to be impossible, but at my workplace where EVERYbody was talking about voting for Kerry, we actually still had about 1/2 of them not vote.

Yes, I was pissed.

[AG78]

27. It's one of two things

Either voting doesn't mean much depending on who owns the votes, or this country is far scarier than I thought it could be in this day and age.

Honestly, 3.5 million more popular votes for Bush?

If that's voter fraud, fine, I can handle that. I could even understand it, because going into this election day I've always figured this corporate/religious movement would do whatever they had to do to stay in power.

But if that number is legit...then I have to be crazy.

[Ready4Change]

30. I agree, Walt.

BBV might have been the final straw, but it wasn't the only straw.

After the last 4 years, this should have been a Kerry landslide. It should have been so lopsided that any BBV strategy should have been laughably obvious. However, instead, BBV in Ohio and Florida is arguable.

The citizens of this nation voted with their fears, with their bigotry, and with their ignorance. They beleived this administrations words without examining this administrations actions. Yes they are misled, but they are WILLINGLY misled. They are no longer free, no longer brave. They are sheep, parroting their masters. They are unable to understand BBV, unwilling to try, uninterested in listening.

I've no answer. I'm mourning the death of a nation.

[wabeewoman]

41. I think it is what won the electoral

votes-they cheated in 2 states at least. But I told people before this election that I would accept the will of the people. And to me, even with cheating he got almost 4 million more votes. As much as I hate to admit it and quite frankly can't believe it, a huge number of american people see the world a lot differently than we do. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Bush will have to clean up his own messes now...Unfortunately we'll suffer along with the idiots who voted for him.
on edit: by accept I mean accept the voting was legit (sort) of but I will still work to expose and bring him to justice

[GRLMGC]

44. Maybe not

but I still think we need to have a paper trail at all costs, just to be safe.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

46. Walt you are wrong on this

1 man can do a lot of damage if given access to these machines and NO paper trail to verify.

[UNIXcock]

49. I agree as well

... we simply got out-voted