My son just pulled THIS out of his bag of Halloween candy bag!

[in_cog_ni_to]

:grr::grr::grr:

It's a Trick or Treat candy bag and on the back it says, "Now I have another treat for you...The story of Jesus. Our Savior from sin."

"To learn more about Jesus I would like for you to join me for Sunday School at church at St. Paul's Lutheran Church.


This shit REALLY pisses me off and tomorrow I'm calling this church and telling them that I do not appreciate them providing these bags to their congregants for handing out Halloween candy! I'm so SICK of this religion BULLSHIT!

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

1. Well, it IS the devil's night, you know

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. I bet they're a Missouri Synod church

The Missouri Synod (which is all over the country) is made up of theological fundamentalists who like fancy liturgies.

[Bill McBlueState]

7. fundamentalists who like fancy liturgies?

I thought the two were mutually exclusive. Every fundamentalist service I've ever been to has half an hour of insipid singing, then some simplistic rant from a guy in a bad suit.

But I've gotta admit, the differences among the denominations who call themselves "Lutheran" kinda confuse me. :shrug:

[tsuki]

27. Don't forget

the snakes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. The Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod (even more rigid) Lutherans

are the descendants of nineteenth century German immigrants who thought the state church of Germany (Evangelische Reformierte Kirche) was soft on...everything.

Their nineteenth century German heritage makes them high church, but their history of being the German equivalent of Puritans makes them theologically rigid.

Most (not all) Lutheran schools you see are run by either the Missouri or Wisconsin Synods, because they believe in "Christian education" for their young.

[ghostsofgiants]

75. Dude, you just described every Sunday for the first 13 years of my life.

When I visit my grandparents' house, it's the same thing minus the singing and suit. Actually, no, sometimes there is singing.

[realisticphish]

23. sure as hell

i can GUARENTEE you they were not ELCA...we just dont do that kind of shit

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[JVS]

28. They could be WELS

[realisticphish]

40. i admit

ive never heard of them. who are they, and how are they different from the missouri synod?

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[JVS]

45. The WELS is more conservative than the LCMS

www.wels.net is their address.

[ThoughtCriminal]

3. Chick Tracts are more fun

Collect them all.
O8)

[TheFarseer]

4. You're right, that is not appropriate

but I would just ignore it or else you could end up being talked about on a Rush Limbaugh type program and held up as evidence that the left wants to outlaw the bible.

[Spiffarino]

5. Don't call the church!

No no no...go to their house and give them a nice little pamphlet on your religion - or on what's great about atheism - and tell them, "I just wanted to share my joy with you!"

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. I wasn't with him.

He was at a friends house and went around 2 different neighborhoods. I wish I DID know who gave it to him I would have been on their doorstep already.

[pschoeb]

41. Well you can show up at the Sunday School

I mean Jesus himself invited you ;) Then you can hand out your own pamphlet. I have my own pamphlet that I made up so whenever someone trys to give me one of theirs(whatever it is), I give them mine, it's a hoot as they totally don't expect it.

My best time was when I was on the bus, and this couple sat down next to me and told me that

"Jesus loves you, and died for your sins"

and I quipped back

"how much money did my ex-boyfriend Jesus, pay you to track me down and say that. I'm not going back to him and his crappy apartment, and those suicide threats won't work either. He always about the drama."

Patrick Schoeb

[Swamp Rat]

120. Good

Don't get mad. Get even. :D

[FizzFuzz]

136. great photoshop! n/t

[Swamp Rat]

144. Thank you

I made that one last night. :D

[FizzFuzz]

150. here's a funny or maybe stupid idea

How about a visual for "dont vote for bush, he's smelly" ?

heh heh heh!!! anything funny come to mind?

oy I need to get off the computer..I already said that an hour ago. yeeg

[Swamp Rat]

158. Hot off the press, so to speak:

[HawkerHurricane]

21. Anyone who attempts to convert my children...

obviously want me to convert thiers...

"Timmy, your parents are Heathens..."

[ogsball]

6. Why isn't it appropriate? nt

[Gore1FL]

154. Halloween bags are not propaganda collectors

n/t

[freetobegay]

8. Repent my children, it's good for the soul.

[JVS]

10. If you don't want your kid to have it, don't have him take candy...

from strangers.

It's not as though these people came to your door and made your kid take the pamphlet.

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. They have no right to preach their religion to my son.

It's offensive.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

12. good grief...

damn it...just throw the thing away. You act like you have the right to not be offended in this world...get over it. If someone comes to your house to trick-or-treat, tell them how great it is to be whatever the hell you are. You have that right...so do they.

theProdigal

[barb162]

71. this perfson doews have the right to be upset... these fundies are

telling this parent they know best for the child.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

98. no, they didn't

they invited them to sunday school or church service or something or other...the parent has need to even acknowledge it...

theProdigal

[barb162]

109. wrong again. Person A should not try to influence person B's

child on the subject of religion without asking Person B. It is completely out of line behavior. You don't think Person A (fundie) would be pissed if Person B gave their child a tract on atheism, buddhism, etc?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

110. if they were offended then they would be a hypocrite

and then should seriously consider not behaving that way in the future. If my daughter got something like this in her bag she would most likely ignore it, if not, we would talk about it.

theProdigal

[barb162]

122. fundies are hypocrites. It's just out of line, ignorant behavior

to put something like this in a little kid's bag when all the kid wants and expects is candy and when the whole societal "thing" about Halloween is just that. The fundies just can't leave this one fun day for kids (where they get to dress up and get free candy by saying three magic words:trick or treat) alone without selling their damn religion.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

126. I can see how you'd feel that way

the kids did get the candy though...and most of them will ignore the bag...but if not, talk to them...tell them why you don't believe this stuff and why you think it is wrong...

Barb, that is some username you have there...

theProdigal

[kerrywins]

164. they gave him a bag of candy

just ignore the statement on it...or throw it away...

[JVS]

13. Do you think you could sue them and win?

They are totally within their rights.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Sue them? Who said anything about suing them?

My son is Jewish and I do not appreciate this BLATANT disregard for respecting others who may just practice a different religion from theirs. Thank you very much. I don't shove MY religion down THEIR throats and would appreciate the same respect.

[JVS]

18. You said they had no right. According to the law they do have the right.

And they never shoved their religion down your kid's throat, they merely put a piece of paper with some candy. A piece of candy that your child went to their house for the sole purpose of obtaining. Blame your kid for taking candy from people who want to spread their religion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. He went for candy, not to "get religion." n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. then YOU take the religion out of it and

stop bitching about other peoples' rights to free speech.

theProdigal

[JVS]

39. AMEN!

[Gore1FL]

155. Legal right vs ethical right

Just because it is legal, does not imply an action is socially acceptable behavior.

I am not saying these folks didn't have the best of intentions, but obviously this practice upsets people.

Additionally, one would think a church would have better avenues of advertisement and recruitment than bribing kids with candy.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. i am offended that you mentioned your Jewishness here on DU

it is an affront to my belief in the deity of Jesus Christ. You have no right to ever say anything about your religion that might possibly conflict with mine. The fact that this message came into my house is particularly appalling. I guess I should not expect to be in a religion free environment whilst reading here on DU. </sarcasm>

Jeez...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. I never said I was Jewish. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. fine...your son's jewishness...

the argument holds. If you are so frightened of ideals that are not your own (or his mother's or whateverthefuck) then don't risk him being exposed to them. Lock him in his room and don't let him out til he's 80.

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Where did I say I was "frightened" by it?

I said I was OFFENDED that religious ZEALOTS keep trying to shove their fucking religion down my or my son's throat. BIG DIFFERENCE.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. once again...you act like you have the right

to not be offended...you don't. Usually, persons who react so strongly to something of this nature, whether they are claiming offense or not, are afraid that the point being made might have an impact that they don't care for...

GET OVER IT...it was a note scribbled (or printed) on some damned candy. Should I get offended at the messages inside a fortune cookie? They do sort of go against my religion...

theProdigal

[friesianrider]

47. I think YOU should get over it...

Sheesh.

The woman said it was inappropriate and she doesn't like it. That's it! She never said it was a violation of her constitutional rights or anything, just that it is inappropriate - which it is. It's poor taste and in bad form. Halloween is a chance for kids to go out, get candy, and have fun. It shouldn't be a chance for some self-righteous adult to try and exploit that in order to spread his religion. Does he have a RIGHT to? Probably, since the children did come to his home. HOWEVER, it is highly inappropriate and I would be offended if I were her, too.

Lay off, would you?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

54. plainly said...in post # 11

"they do not have the right..."

read...

theProdigal

[barb162]

83. I am so with you! It is disgusting putting this crap in a kid's

halloween bag.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. Did they give him some candy too?

That would be nice to know, at least if they did, they were doing the Halloween thing as well as trying to convert the kids.

[CosmicVortex21]

14. Well, technically you did solicit them...

Im not fond of that garbage either, but when your taking random goodies from houses, you have to expect the occasional nut.

[JVS]

15. Frankly, such a pamphlet is the least that could happen

There are sick fucks out there. Letting your kid go trick or treating unsupervised is like saying "Go ahead and take candy from the strange man sitting in his van"

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Did I say he was unsupervised?

No, I did not. He was at a friends house and my friend, the MOTHER, took them around.

[JVS]

19. And see what happens when you let friend's mothers take care of things?

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Oh, puhleeze. That is just ludicrous. n/t

[JVS]

24. If you are upset about what pieces of paper get into your kid's hands

then it is up to you to make sure that your kid doesn't get them.

In the same way that it is the responsibility of those people who handed out the pamphlet to make sure that their kids don't watch TV shows or movies that they find offensive.

Obviously the surrogate you chose for the evening didn't have the same standards as you

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. It wasn't a "pamphlet."

It was a "candy bag" with a scarecrow on the front. It looks like any other Halloween candy bag. Had "I" been with him I would have had to take the bag, which are usually BLANK on the back, and EXPECT to have a church print something on the back. Ludicrous. I have candy bags that look exactly like these on the front. The difference is the print that they printed on the back of it.

[JVS]

31. If you don't want it don't take it

edit: So will your kid be eating the candy?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. oooohhhh...look out...

other people's ideals are different than yours and are SPREADING...RUN...RUN!

How the hell is this ludicrous? They took an opportunity to spread their ideas (just like you are doing here on DU). They might offend some people...and they might connect with others. Just throw the damned thing away and stop being such a whimp about it.

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. You come here for a LIBERAL community and that's what you get.

Kids go trick or treating for fun and candy, NOT RELIGION. I'm not being a wimp. I think it's offensive for people to evangelize to children who are Trick or Treating. They don't know the religion of those children.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. then don't go to their damned house

maybe they think that the celebration is a little too close to the celebration of Samhain and feel OFFENDED by that. Maybe some people just give out candy so the kids won't 'egg' their houses. I don't care if they don't know the religion of 'those children.' If you are so easily shaken by someone else's expression of belief in ANYTHING then you need to just go away and hide somewhere...you have no right to not be offended...especially on someone else's doorstep.

theProdigal

OnEdit : what if your ideas here on DU DO offend someone? what do you do then? keep them to yourself? I come here for LIBERAL discussion, just like you, but do I have the right to not be offended? HELL NO...

[friesianrider]

51. How the hell was she to know some idiot would use a holiday....

To evangelize little kids? :eyes:

And, she isn't upset that this person has a different belief than her. She's upset that this person EXPLOITED a good-natured holiday for children as a tool with which to push their beliefs on others. INAPPROPRIATE, PERIOD.

seriously, what is your damage? You seem more lathered up about this than she is.

[Robbie67]

52. a holiday?

think about that for just a minute

[friesianrider]

56. Fine, a "kids celebration day", who the fuck cares.

Call it whatever you wish, it isn't "Push your religious beliefs on some unsuspecting little kids just trying to have fun Day".

:eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. you know, right or wrong...

a lot of people see halloween as a celebration of a different religious tradition. What about them? Should they be subjected to all the people celebrating Samhain???

:eyes: to you...

theProdigal

[friesianrider]

64. Samhain, Samhain...you love that word don't you?

Well here's one I love! :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

80. I guess you really don't know the origin of the 'holiday'

or is that all you are trying to state? Are you attempting to deny that origin?

theProdigal

[Robbie67]

62. it's a religous event!

Nobody just popped up one day and said "Let's give out candy and call it Halloween."

It's All Hallow's Eve. It's all about religion. Why wouldn't Christians be actively involved?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. i do get lathered up...

thanks for the phrase...

when people act like they have the right to 1) NOT BE OFFENDED 2) try to tell someone what they can do on their own damned front porch. I think little kids running around in the dark asking for candy is inappropriate...but I am not on DU bitching about it...until now...

theProdigal

[friesianrider]

63. You need a drink.

Slowly back away from the computer. Do you have sand in your privates or something we should know about?
#1, she never said that she has the right to tell someone what they can and can't do on their front porch. She was saying that it is inappropriate for adults to exploit a fun night for children as a tool with which to attempt to evangelize little kids. It's inappropriate, tacky, pushy, and obnoxious. She has EVERY right to be offended. If you're not offended, GREAT! Have yourself a cookie and pat yourself on the back - you rock. But SHE thought, as I andmany others here do, that it's inappropriate. She also has the right to call and complain to the church if she wishes. The church pushed themselves into their lives and she has every right to push back if she wants.

She also never said she has the right to never be offended. The fact is she WAS offended, and guess what? SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO BE! I'm offended by your incessant and grumpy bitching, you're offended by kids asking for candy, she's offended by this Jesus message. I think maybe you need to GET THE HELL OVER IT and get off the computer for a few hours or something.

I'm off to bed now. You should consider doing the same :eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

67. read post #11

they have NO RIGHT. That is what was said...do you not have the eyes to read it?

f-off

theProdigal

OnEdit: yes, she can call the church if she wishes...I am sure others will and it would do a hell of a lot more good than this whole load of steaming crap

[friesianrider]

72. Ouch!

F off? Tssk! That hurt.

See? You need to go to bed. You're cranky!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

81. and you are delusional or incapable

one or the other...i do like how you completely ignore what the original poster said in post #11...which kind of shoots down most of your argument...

theProdigal

[helnwhls]

76. http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Well, the truth finally comes out.

Why didn't you just say you don't like Halloween? No wonder. That explains a lot. :eyes: You never went trick or treating as a child? I did and had a BLAST while doing it. It was FUN!

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

84. ahhh...now your argument has so much weight that

lies about me are forthcoming...good...glad you seem to know so much about me...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

89. And you seem to know so much about me.

:eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

90. i know that you claimed that someone

had no rights to leave a little note in your kids halloween candy...that is what I know...other than that I don't know much about you...why do you claim to know so much about me?

theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

82. i do have children...

and you know nothing about me other than the fact that I hate someone trying to abridge someone's right to free speech, or bitching about it because they don't like what they have to say...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

94. I don't care what you say.

It was inappropriate for that religious zealot to evangelize my son. Period. I'll bitch about anything I damn well please if I don't like it. I find evangelists offensive and said so.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. you said they had no right

and that is what pisses me off. You can be offended until the cows come home...call the church. Find out which houses your kid went to and canvass them until you find the person who planted the tract and then tell them your kid won't be coming back to their house for halloween next year. If you are going to get so wrapped up in every little thing that you find inappropriate you will lead a miserable existence. Come on...you have more to get juiced about than this. We need people with vigor...but let the ideas flow back and forth and if you can beat them with a good argument then do so! But don't say someone has no right to say something...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. Prodigal, listen to me.

I think it's inappropriate for ANYONE to evangelize my son while he's trick or treating. Will it make you feel better if I take back the one word, "right?" OK. They have a right to practice their religion, but it's INAPPROPRIATE to shove it down my son's throat. OK? Happy? Damn. The word "fixation" comes to mind for some odd reason. Did I say they didn't have a right to "say" something? I don't think I did.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. actually you did...and yes, i get fixated (it's a problem)

The problem is, that for many christians, telling people about their relationship with god is part of their religion. You can't really separate the two because Christ said to go and make disciples of all men (or nations, depending on the translation). Because of that they cannot be practicing their religion without carrying on with what this commands. I have been prosyletized over and over again...and I am a christian. I have also spent time talking with people of various religious faith to see if what I believe holds water...and so that I can teach my children my faith while being able to answer their questions about others.

I KNOW that some of the more radical christians out there are slimy about this sort of thing...the whole "you're going to hell" crowd...but many of them genuinely want to do what they were commanded in the least invasive way they can...and this to them may be just that.

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

123. Where did I say they didn't have a right

to "say" something? Can you copy/paste?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

128. subject line post #11

they have no right...

sorry i got so heated up back there...thanks for sticking around long enough for me to calm down some...please accept my apologies

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

133. Apology accepted.

I hope you feel better soon. I think we're all on edge a bit. 2 more days and it will all be over. ;)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

134. cool...thanks

i think my blood sugar is low too :-) Just kidding...looking for an excuse for the ass I was being...

:pals:?

theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

97. fine...I can be offended by your bitching then

it is your right and mine...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

116. Good, be offended.

Make my night. :)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

119. seems like we are making each others' nights

thanks for helping me cope with my insomnia...actually I think it was the sudafed...but I could be wrong.

:-)

theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

77. yeah, actually I did go trick-or-treating

and as a kid I thought it was fun. But in today's world it is a little too dangerous. We gave out candy this year. We always do (the good stuff,too...KitKats and Snickers Bars and M&M...not that taffy crap). The kids were cute.

The truth is that you seem to think that it is not ok for someone, giving to your little one(s), to not include a message when the kids themselves being there is a message. They have every right, despite what you state in post #11, to hand out whatever the hell they want...and yes, you can bitch about it. But it makes you look like you have no spine to come in here and whine about a little piece of paper and the 'danger' it poses to your family. Don't be afraid of it...and if you're offended, tell your son...and tell him why. But don't act like people don't have the right to behave this way and that it is somehow inappropriate for them to share their beliefs from their own doorstep...THAT is what I have a problem with...

theProdigal

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. So what do they do?

Put a sign in their yard? -

WARNING We are Religious Nuts and May Offend You or Your Children? STAY AWAY.

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. That would be nice. Yes. I like that solution.

:)

[m berst]

147. understood

"Kids go trick or treating for fun and candy, NOT RELIGION."

Why are the neighbors obligated to give your child what you want your child to have, though? Were the children preached at? Prayed over? Stopped?

[tsuki]

35. Pleeze, I

went trick or treating when I was a child. Everyone joined in the fun and didn't pull that Evangelical crap.

Now, in my community, we cannot even say the "H" word because it is Satanic. We have to call it "Fall Festival."

[CosmicVortex21]

43. I got these things when I was a kid about 20 years ago.

They were being circulated then.

[tsuki]

48. I am older, lots :-)

[expatriate]

53. we used to get them too

when I was trick or treating forty odd years ago.

We laughed at them, and then threw them away. Sometimes my father would keep the more lurid tracts and show them to other people, who laughed too.

[friesianrider]

50. That's like excusing...

A teacher who tells their students how evil John Kerry is and telling the upset parents to homeschool their kids if they don't want to risk exposure to that kind of thing. :eyes:

Is this guy within his rights to do what he did? Probably. Was it extremely inappropriate and wrong? I certainly think so and would be as offended if it were my child. Halloween is NOT the time or place for some self-righteous adult to try and distort little kids minds. It is definitely inapproriate and she has EVERY right to be offended.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. no...it's not

what someone does on their OWN FRONT PORCH is nothing like the scenario you have suggested...

more :eyes:

theProdigal

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

86. turn that post around on the original poster or yourself

she is talking about RIGHTS you ... well, we'll leave it at that until you can acknowledge that the poster in #11 was talking about rights...not offense...

theProdigal

[DemBones DemBones]

68. No, it's not. By law, kids have to go to school so they are

a captive audience if a teacher preaches politics or religion to them. There is no law requiring kids to go trick or treating.

I wouldn't have particularly liked my child getting something like that on Halloween but it's just not up there with a Jack Chick tract explaining how all Jews will go to Hell.

[EnfantTerrible]

32. Was your child tempted to go?

It seems to me a great opportunity to talk to your kid about religious freedoms or perhaps why you personally feel that it is inappropriate to hand out this kind of literature...

[tuvor]

29. The candy'll make him more prone to cavities.

But you manage to cope.

It was just an invitation, a Lutheran neighbourhood outreach thing. It's the "worst" thing that Lutherans do (I was brought up as such), and it's all very benign. I promise they won't target you, although you might someday get another flyer along with the rest of the neigbours.

Just decline the invitation and get on with more important things.

Like teaching your son about good dental hygiene.

[Robbie67]

49. yet you participate in Halloween

Maybe you should get your son away from that religion bullshit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Halloween is:

Dress up in a fun costume and have a blast with your friends while getting candy. PERIOD. Halloween is religion bullshit? LOL. That's funny.

[Robbie67]

66. you should really do some research

find out what "Halloween" is

[helnwhls]

85. did some research

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

[ProdigalJunkMail]

short...to the point...i like it n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

88. To ME, Halloween is:

Dressing up in a fun costume and having fun with your friends while getting candy. That's all I need to know. Religion bullshit is just silly. NO kid that I know sees Halloween as "religious." No one.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

99. but it isn't any more about what you see...

it is about what THEY see. They are scared of stuff like this...they see it as the downfall of western society...right or wrong. I think halloween is a fun time...but too dangerous for kids to be out like they are. I am glad yours were supervised and it is a testament to you as a parent...

You say what halloween is to you...they say what halloween is to them. Both sets of ideas are ok...but people have as much right to see it as a satanic celebration as you have to see it as fun.

theProdigal

[Robbie67]

103. but that's ludicrous

That's like saying "July 4th is all about fireworks" It's about something else entirely.

Maybe this guy shouldn't have given your son propaganda, but it's not like there are certain rules that everyone has to follow.

Next year, just have your son avoid that house.

[Kali]

59. yeah I hate when that crap happens, but

what can ya do? Just throw it away or take the chance like someone above said and have a conversation with your kid about how lame and inapropriate that kind of behavior is. At least they gave some candy; in my experience they just preach to the kids and don't give them any treats!

[barb162]

61. in the Lounge , a Tx duer wrote about her kid getting 4 tracts

today

[FizzFuzz]

65. geez, I think a bunch of people are doing the monty python thing to you

"Hello, I'm here for an argument." I can't believe people are reacting to you as if you're in the wrong.

Maybe in itself its not something to get ballistic about, but with these narrow-minded-brimstone-burning-do-it-our-way-let-me-intrude-on-your-space people all over the place, why wouldn't you be mad?

"Now I have another treat for you.." ew.

[friesianrider]

74. Ditto. well said.

Well said.

[Robbie67]

78. how is she not wrong?

Is there some law against giving out candyganda?

[FizzFuzz]

93. that's a very rigid attitude.

One is only wrong if there is legislation to prove it?

Free speech means ANYTHING is ok? If there's no law against it, then no one has any right to name bullshit for what it is?

If someone passed you on the street and with no provocation from you, looked you in the eye, said "you are evil and you're going to hell", would that be wrong? Would it be prosecutable? Would you be pissed? If they did it to your kid, would it be different?

If you would feel respect for that person's right to say anything he wants that's not legislated against, then you're more spiritually advanced than I.

[Robbie67]

107. Why is it wrong?

Could you tell me that? Why was it wrong for that person to give out propaganda? At least there was candy attached.

If somebody said that to me on the street, I'd probably just say "Thank you."

[FizzFuzz]

125. ok, so you're an advanced spiritual being.

Please teach me.

Although I'm a little skeptical, since I thought an advanced spiritual being would be able to answer my other questions, which were in more depth and required some self reflection, which advanced spiritual beings are well capable of.

Though I think an honest attempt to think about my questions to you would provide the answers to your questions to me.

[Robbie67]

138. Let me see if I can sort it out

"One is only wrong if there is legislation to prove it?"

Right and wrong can be highly subjective when no clear-cut transgression has taken place.

"Free speech means ANYTHING is ok? If there's no law against it, then no one has any right to name bullshit for what it is?"

Umm, free speech includes calling bullshit. Who said any different? Maybe the original poster should run over to that person's house and complain.

"If someone passed you on the street and with no provocation from you, looked you in the eye, said "you are evil and you're going to hell", would that be wrong? Would it be prosecutable? Would you be pissed? If they did it to your kid, would it be different?"

Certainly not prosecutable. After all, it is a free country. Would I be pissed? Well, as an atheist, I'd basically ignore the ramblings of a crazy person. It wouldn't seem appropriate to get pissed. As for a child, I don't have any. However, I would hope my child is trained well and can deal with things he/she is told by crazy people.

"If you would feel respect for that person's right to say anything he wants that's not legislated against, then you're more spiritually advanced than I."

Apparently.

[FizzFuzz]

149. sort this

You first asked me "how is she not wrong?" This means you are saying you think she is in the wrong and confronting me for suggesting she has a right to be angry.
Now you say "Right and wrong can be highly subjective when no clear-cut transgression has taken place."
Which is it? First you're polarizing the issue, then you're lecturing me on nuance, when I was the one telling you that you need to be more nuanced.


Your next statement in the original reply to me is this: "Is there some law against giving out candyganda?"
So you are objecting here to her outrage, citing lack of legislation. Therefore, you are implying that its fine to give out candyganda (a cute coinage of a term, btw), because its legal, so she should not be angry.
However, now you're saying "Umm, free speech includes calling bullshit. Who said any different? Maybe the original poster should run over to that person's house and complain.", or in other words you are chiding me for questioning her right to be angered by and speak up against bullshit.

You're projecting my challenges to you back onto me. That does not reflect well on you.

Last, I have already conceded that you are clearly a spiritually advanced being as evidenced by your calm gratitude to the hypothetical stranger. Yet you feel a need to bring it up again in order to make sure I know how spiritually advanced you are, by using the sarcastic reply, "apparently". So, you're delighting in your superiority, you're rubbing my nose in it, and using sarcasm which is meant to be hurtful.

Tsk tsk, not very spiritually advanced.

OK, so I've proved that you are self contradictory, that you project your confusion onto others, and that you need to reign in your ego.

I win.

now go away.

[Robbie67]

159. you act like a child

and don't read well

[traco]

87. How old is your son?

If you don't make a big deal about it, he won't either. Just say something like- chalk it up to the lutherans, always trying to convert- throw it away and go back to checking the candy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

129. He's 11 years old.

He understands it. Thanks. :hi:

[m berst]

91. you are upset

Not sure why. People who are emotionally disturbed are attracted to Christianity as something of a cover. And of course some wealthy and powerful people are using Christianity as cover for some awful things. These people would be trouble whether they called themselves Christians or not, and they are just using the church and the label to hise behind. So the important thing to understand is that while crazy people are corrupting Christianity and acting in the name of the religion, Christianity does not necessarily make people crazy or harm them. Trying to protect a young person from something as innocuous as this message on a bag is IMHO potentially more damaging to the child then the message is. Your reaction also gives potency - whether for good or evil - to the message that it simply doesn't have, and it fans the flames of intolerance and hatred.

It is not a case of the children being abused or harmed. It is not a case of anyone aggressively or disruptively forcing anything on anyone. You were offended, yes, I understand. 99% of the things I see in the country today offend me, and everything is plastered with propaganda and messages of all kinds.

Thinking on this, are you certain that there was an organized plan here for the church to distribute the bags and for the congregration to use them for Halloween candy?

I can't see anyway to prevent you from being offended unless we outlawed Christianity - or all religions if it isn't Christianity in particular that you find offensive. We would need to toss the Constitution first.

I would use it as an opening if it were me and start a conversation with the neighbor.

Painting all Christians with a broad brush and having so much anger towards anyone and anything associated with Christianity can only exacerbate an already volatile and dangerous social dynamic.

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. My son was offended and was the one to point it out to me.

He was going through the bag of candy and yelled, "OMG! LOOK at what someone put in my candy bag!" "I can't believe someone would do this!" HE was offended, showed it to me, I was offended and here I am. A lively little flame war! ;) I'm a Christian. I didn't mean to paint with a broad brush. I'm not "angry" with Chritianity. I'm talking about religious zealots who have the need to evangelize at every opportunity, including Halloween.

[m berst]

113. ok thanks

That rounds out the picture a little more. I certainly wasn't trying to flame you. I HATE it when people tell me to chill.

Explain to me what upsets you about it a little more if you could. It should come as no news to anyone that there are people who feel that they have a duty to be witnessing first, last, and always. It can be pushy and offensive, certainly. Witnessing and evangelizing has become associated with some whacky and dangerous stuff.

Calling the church to yell at them would be a bad idea IMHO and when you say you are tired of this sh*t that paints with a pretty braod brush.

I genuinely want to know what specifically about this is offensive. I think there is a dangerous trend in Christianity, and the solution has to inclkude appealling to reasonable Christians about this, so that means being specific. I read your post as bristling with hostility to Christianity in any form, and as a call to "do something" about this problem.

[in_cog_ni_to]

121. The MAIN reason?

My son is Jewish. I, personally, have ALWAYS disliked anyone pushing thier religion on me. If I wanted a religion, I would have one and I don't need someone knocking on my door or stopping me on the street to force their religion on me. It's my choice, not theirs, which religion, if any, I practice. It's that simple. :)

I didn't mean to say YOU were flaming me. I was talking about someone else on this thread and he knows who he is.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

130. me?

How would you learn about the religion unless someone told you about it? Is anyone that is telling you about their faith 'pushing it' on you? I am trying to be civil and serious here. I would like to know where the line is...

theProdigal

[in_cog_ni_to]

137. Prodigal, are you still up?

:) If it's someone I know? No, of course not. If it's a stranger? Yes. I don't NEED them to convert me. I'm 49 years old. I'm old enough to know what I want and don't want. I don't need some stranger coming up to me to tell me about their religion and why I should practice it.

Now, get your butt to bed. You're sick. You need your rest. Drink plenty of fluids and sleep! ;)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

140. guess I should have looked for that flu shot...

just kidding...just a nasty cold.

I guess I can see that. My faith is particular about sharing our faith...not to the point of running all over neighborhoods and preaching at people...but definitely talking to the people we care about. The key, I guess, is doing it in a non-confrontational way. Not to be sneaky about it, but knowing that someone might like to hear or that someone might get really turned off. The whole tracts thing is what a lot of people see as a non-confrontational way of approaching it.

I think what the person did was probably a waste of time more than anything. But I can see offense being taken...

Much love...
theProdigal (going to bed!)

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. Good night. Hope you feel better soon! n/t

[m berst]

139. your choice certainly

How did anyone force their religion on you in this case? No one came to your door or stopped you on the street. It isn't much different then seeing a religious message in front of a church when you are driving. How did your son come to have a religion? How is your son being Jewish relevant? If the message on the bag had been Jewish would that be OK?

[in_cog_ni_to]

148. How did my son come to have religion?

Ummmm...My husband is Jewish and we decided he would be raised in the Jewish Faith. That's how. People of the Jewish faith do not believe in Jesus. That's how it's relevant. And NO, if it was a Jewish message it would not have been OK. Those who practice Judaism don't evangelize. So, THAT would never happen. Have you ever had a person of the Jewish faith walk up to you to convert you? Nope. Doesn't happen.

How did they force their religion on my son? They printed a candy bag with the message in my OP and dropped it in my son's candy bag. That's how. If they weren't trying to force their faith on my son, why print the bags and drop them in kids bags?

[m berst]

151. thanks

OK didn't mean to pry. Just couldn't connect all of the different elements together. I shouldn't have said "Jewish message" because as you said there is no proselytizing in Judaism.

As you said we are all on edge. Sounds like this little episode got on your last nerve, which is understandable.

[Cronus Protagonist]

92. I hand out peace buttons, candy, money and toys

"Give peace a chance" is the most common button I give away. Haven't had any complaints (yet) :)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

102. i offended...

sorry...couldn't resist.

tP

[DemBones DemBones]

95. OK, maybe no one ever mentioned religion to your kid before.

But I kind of doubt it, because I know mine got witnessed to a good bit.

Tracts in with the Halloween candy are tacky but some people foolishly believe they're doing a good thing, trying to help those children growing up without religion. I don't think you should be terribly upset about a flyer advertising the Lutheran Sunday School. As I said upthread, it's just not up there with a Chick tract saying "All Jews go to Hell."

You can call the church if it makes you feel better but you won't change their minds.
You can't control all the things he's going to hear and read; it's just not possible.

Therefore, the real solution is fundy-proofing your son. ;-)

[in_cog_ni_to]

111. Fundy-proofing. LOL.

He's exposed to a TON of different religions. The kid is the ONLY Jewish child in his entire school. EVERYONE is a different religion than he is. ALL of his friends are different religions. It's been mentioned. ;)

[DemBones DemBones]

142. Then you've done your job and he'll be fine!

You just have to be sure kids understand that some religions proselytize and how they can respond -- ideally, without getting in a fight. It's a survival skill they need to learn, especially if they're members of a minority religion. I get fed up with the US, too, but this is probably reality in most of the world.

:shrug:

[hightension]

100. Thankfully

My daughter is only 4, so she doesn't actually know what this stuff is.

We usually get 2 or 3 every year. We're in Ks. so it isn't that surprising.

[Cat Atomic]

101. Well, if it's any consolation...

we used to get those regularly when I was a kid, too. All the kids thought they were hilarious, and would doodle... interesting... things in them for weeks afterwards.

[LiberteToujours]

104. That's a trick, not a treat

[Hoffnung]

106. Their number is 218-675-6335 email [e-mail]

website: http://www.uslink.net/~stpauls/

I will be giving these people a call first thing tomorrow afternoon.

[m berst]

114. no you won't

and that info should not be here.

[JVS]

160. Why is a church in MN getting flyers to a DUer whose profile says IL?

How do you know that you have the right St. Paul's?

[Alexander]

108. If you're worried about your kid getting religious messages...

Don't send him trick-or-treating.

The person who gave your son the bag was within his/her right to do so. He did have the option of not accepting the bag, or throwing it away, or whatever.

You are, of course, also within your right to complain. But that seems a bit silly considering the fact that there are many more useful things you can do about the situation besides gripe on this forum.

Jehovah's Witnesses have come to my door a few times over the past couple of years. I usually tell them I am not a Christian, and I don't care to be one. Surely this offends them to some degree, as it conflicts drastically with their religious beliefs. But I have the right to say what I want, whether it's through verbal or written communication, to people who approach me on my front porch.

Now, personally, I think it's a bit much to get worked up over Halloween. This goes for both you and the religious zealot who gave your son the candy. It's a frigging holiday - it's supposed to be fun. So have fun.

[expatriate]

112. This kind of thing is irritating, because it seems rather

out of place with the modern, secular celebration of Halloween. Sort of Scrooge-like - though an invitation to Sunday School doesn't strike me as nearly so nasty as some of the really racist/anti-Semitic tracts that used to get handed to us on Halloween in the Deep South four decades ago, complete with rather graphic drawings of little kids being led away into Hell by devils, with flames all around. There were also some that showed the Devil eating the kids. Nice thing to hand out to the neighborhood kiddies.

Right now the "in your face" aspect of evangelism and fundamentalism in America seems to be really grating, and I'm glad I'm not there! I can remember a real evangelical fad in the town where I grew up during the 1970's, and it was ridiculous - if Halloween fell on Sunday, "Trick or Treat" night was decreed to be another day. People were constantly asking if you were "saved". If it was bad then, I would hate to imagine what it is like now with so much more open fundamentalism being backed by the media and the government.

If your son is quite young, he will react to your reaction more than he will to the invitation printed on the bag, and might end up being bothered more by your becoming upset than by the bag itself. As a parent, I would use the opportunity, should he seem disturbed by this, to talk a bit about how people believe different things, and that some people truly believe that they need to do things like this as part of their religion - and that it doesn't need to worry or bother him, and that he is just fine believing what he believes. This is how my parents usually dealt with the very lurid tracts that ended up in our treat bags (after they'd fallen down laughing at them).

You can call the church, but bear in mind - the church might not have provided those bags, the actual homeowner might have had them run through a copy machine or the like. It might not be a church sponsored thing at all. Best to go slow, if you do want to talk to them about it, and see just what the situation is.

Having had a very rough course as a parent, I can tell you this - just hope this is the worst thing you ever have to contend with!

[Borgnine]

152. Ah, Jack Chick's tracts.

What a loon.

[Bluebear]

117. How about if someone handed out Ford brochures?

I know better than to get into this, but Halloween is understood to be secular. What if every kid got a new "Ford Trucks and Cars brochure, call Shep Smoot at Wichita Falls Ford today! Call 555-1234!" blurb in their bags?

Kids don't want advertisements, including those for Jesus or Allah or Buddha in their bags. They want candy.

Yes, it was the "right" of the homeowner. I happen to think it was tres tacky.

[Robbie67]

124. as long as the brochures have candy, why not?

We shouldn't let Mars, Bazooka, Good & Plenty, Charms, etc. have a lock on the market, right?

[Bluebear]

127. Kids don't want their bags filled with flyers and crap.

Just my opinion. This should be about them, not what the homeowner's agenda is.

[felixcatus]

131. Read article in salon.com

Maybe somebody already sent you this link, if so, my apologies.

There's an interesting article in Salon about this new "trend"

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/10/29/halloween/index.html

Now, I don't know how stupid do you have to be to:
a) Be converted by a religious tract hidden in a kid's candy
b) Believe that people will convert because you slip a religious tract in their candy.

For some reason I believe b) is more stupid than a).

[Bluebear]

132. Welcome to DU, Felix!

[in_cog_ni_to]

143. Oh Geez.

Now they're taking over Halloween. :( Thanks for the link.

And, Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

135. I still have one from over 30 yrs ago. It sits next to my toilet and I

still get a laugh after all these years while taking a dump. :hurts: It tells how I am going to Hell and everything, unless I accept some cartoon into my life.

Why not save one or two for a good laugh later on? You can color them or draw funny mustaches on cartoon deities with your child. This could be great preventative medicine to keep your child safe from religion. It worked for me - I'm freeeeeee!!!

[Behind the Aegis]

156. just a few things

I can appreciate your anger. I was not thrilled when trick-or-treaters showed up at my house on Saturday night and my porch light was out! I told my partner if another one showed up, I would put up a sign that told them when Halloween was...Sunday night! If it was unholy to trick-or-treat then, it is just as bad on a Saturday! No one else came (it is raining pretty bad in northeast Oklahoma).

AS for your assertion that Halloween is not about religion, well, I beg to differ. No offense to Christians here, but Christians hijacked the holiday in order to make pagans conform. There was a GREAT program on the History Channel about the history of Halloween tonight (Sunday). Halloween is a religious holiday to pagans and witches and is almost 3000 years old.

As for the religious message, it is their "right" to do that, but I agree with you, it is very tacky and uncalled for. Trick-or-treating is for kids to scam candy, not "get religion." Had the message been about the joys of communism, another religion (pagan for example), or political, more people here would have been incensed (I guess...some would not). It would have been just an inappropriate for me to hand out candy with a message about "how Christians stole Halloween and other pagan holidays!" Could I do it? Yes. Would it be appropriate? Hell no!

As for those who say it is part of these people's religion to "spread the word," fine, but limit that "spreading" to appropriate venues and adults. Throwing in a bag of candy stating "let me talk to you about Jesus" is just as inappropriate as dropping in candy that says, " Jesus was a Jew, shouldn't you be too?" Thankfully, Jews and pagans, for that matter, do not proselytize!

Good luck on your call to the church, just don't expect too much! :)

Brightest Blessings!

on edit...added a word

[Jack_DeLeon]

157. Geez get over it...

boo hoo someone gave you a pamphlet.

Its not the end of the world.

I've had people give me pamphlets too and try to preach to me, its not illegal its thier right to free speech also.

If the piece of paper offends you so much just throw it away and get on with your life, no need to make a big deal out of it and stress yourself and you son out.

[JHB]

161. Oh, Fer crying out loud...

Just treat it like any other junk you don't want your kid to have and throw it out.

And next year throw a party or arrange a block party or something if you don't want to deal with some people's wacky ideas of "healthy Halloween treats"

[GinaMaria]

162. Isn't the accepted custom Trick or Treat?

If you don't get a treat, I believe you can dish out a trick ;-)

Treats are subjective. I know I would have felt like Charlie Brown if someone put that in my treat bag as a kid "I got a rock" "I got propaganda" You can find the house your kid went to by looking for the home with the most TP ;-)

[hedgehog]

163. Halloween has religious roots

one way or another - started out with Irish pagans and taken over by the Christians. All the religious ed classes at my Catholic parish yesterday talked about All Saint's Day and handed out candy in celebration. The pastor dressed up for trick-or-treaters last night and handed out candy with a list of Mass times.It's meant as friendly neighborhood outreach, not a branch of the Spanish Inquisition. We Catholics tend to be easy going about mixing up our pagan roots with our beliefs. That's why we go for Christmas trees and Easter bunnies. I don't want to get flamed, but I find your reaction to be similar to the fundies calling it the devil's night.