Had Kerry opposed the Iraqi War...

[CMT]

Question for people who currently oppose John Kerry. If Kerry had opposed the Iraqi War would you have supported him for President?

If Kerry had not supported the Iraqi resolution how likely is it that you would have supported him for the Democratic nomination in 2004?

[JohnKleeb]

1. Without DK in the race

Yes
With DK in the race
No
That said, Kerry is still high on my list.

[CMT]

5. Good picture, John

eom.

[JohnKleeb]

7. Thank Dennis not me he changed the picture

Thanks though. I finally saw him on the daily show not only did he make a lot of sense as always :) but he continued to show his funny side, he called Rummy a robot.

[sujan]

2. I'd support the guy

[virtualobserver]

4. It would have been a tougher call for me if he had opposed the war.

I'll still support him.....if he wins the nomination.....

[poskonig]

3. I was in the Kerry camp before the "What I wanna know" speech.

eom

[Sean Reynolds]

6. I had supported Kerry up until his vote on the war.

At the time I had to stop and re-think who I was going to support. I then decided to support Howard Dean after someone (can't remember) told me about him.

If Kerry voted no on the war I think a lot of DUers would support him.

[XanaDUer]

8. Again,

That depends on your interpretation of the October Resolution. Democrats have gone to court , using the October Resolution, as a basis to try and get an injunction preventing Bush from going to war.

Among these were Dennis Kucinich, Sheila Jackson-Lee, and Jesse Jackson, and others. Also, many constitutional attorneys were in on this as appellants. All of the democrats who filed this case contend that the sole purpose of the act was to forbid Bush from going to war unless it was with UN support.

So it depends. There is no legal justification for anyone stating that the October Resolution was a vote for the war. It is a matter of opinion , which has no legal value.

Even though Kerry signed the resolution , there were clear guidelines within the resolution that were preventative and not authoritative, according to every Democrat . Your contention that Kerry "supported" the war with Iraq, on Bush's terms, has no merit.

Also, Dean did not have to vote because he is not in Congress. But Dean DID state in a salon.com interview, that if Iraq did not disarm itself (odd, since he stated there was no evidence Hussein was armed to begin with) he would authorize a unilateral attack on Iraq in 30 to 60 days.

This is the same stance as Kerry's.

[Cha]

15. link, Please?

[dansolo]

33. That Salon quote is taken out of context

You are ignoring the preceeding paragraph in the article where Dean quite clearly indicates that Bush never made the case that Iraq hadn't disarmed.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/print.html


Hence, today's phone calls. It's Thursday, Feb. 6, the day after
Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations
of evidence of Iraq's noncompliance with Resolution 1441. Edwards
calls it "a powerful case." Kerry says it's "compelling." Lieberman,
of course, is already in his fatigues.

Dean isn't sold. It doesn't indicate that Iraq is an imminent threat, he says.

[Cha]

35. That's why I ask for links! Thank you, dansolo!

Cheers! :toast:

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. Voting for the war was bad enough

But on Meet the Press this morning, Kerry actually said that George Bush Jr is a good man who is trying to do what's right. That may not be his exact wording, but it was very close to that.

Now I realize that Kerry is a career politician and was trying to be "diplomatic" in his criticism of the sitting (so called) President. But let's get real. He was easier on Bush than he was his fellow Democratic candidates especially Dean.

George Bush Jr is NOT a good man trying to do what's right. He's a lying criminal deliberately doing what he knows is wrong. Someone needs to point that out. Howard Dean is trying. Kerry leaves people with the question "Well if Bush is such a great guy, then why should I vote for YOU??.

He missed the golden opportunity to nail the Shrub on his lies when Russert asked him about his vote on Iraq. He should have said, point blank, "I voted for the war because the administration misled Congress and the American people"

[JohnKleeb]

10. ummm there was an article where Dean had nice things to say about Bush too

Just saying :)

[XanaDUer]

12. HA HA!

I guess this means:

Now I realize that (Dean) is a career politician and was trying to be "diplomatic" in his criticism of the sitting (so called) President. But let's get real. He was easier on Bush than he was (sic) his fellow Democratic candidates especially (ALL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES).


Thanks John, you made my day with that!

LC

[JohnKleeb]

26. Well I guess so LC

Honesty helps yet again :) and also to zidzi, CMT acknowledges this as well. That said I loved Kucinich's Rumsfeld is a robot. Dean suppporters respect I know you are all are flying high but I dont know what to say when you all refer to the other candiates as warmongrels, my candiate may not be getting green like you all but this is a man who spoke to protesters and worked on the house against the resolution.

[Cha]

14. link, Please?

[JohnKleeb]

25. I dont have it on me but keep in mind

He did say this and I think you was there. I am not sure not trying to flame him but I know you dont like Kerry for voting on the war resolution, but hes not as flawed as you believe and also CMT acknowledges this is true too.

[Cha]

29. No I wasn't "there!"

I would have been pissed ..and I would have remembered! That's why I asked for a link! I want to know exactly what he said about bush.

[JohnKleeb]

30. Sorry calm down please

It was a while back, I dont keep links hand and hand with me. CMT may have the link, and maybe you can trust CMT's memory better than mine. My bad zidzi but this thread happened earlier this month, and I have forgot the name. I didnt think I was gonna need to use it. That said before I acknowledged this, CMT did, maybe you have a hard time trusting my word as a Kucinich supporter but maybe you can trust CMT more so, I dont keep my links with me, its a bad policy but I am in no mood to fight with anyone, I was merely trying to say that Dean has complimented Bush too. I wont say anything about my candiate on Bush but I just dont think you should act like Kerry is Bush's frankenstein, hes not my pick either but I dont believe in dismissing this man from my support because one issue in the long run that is,

[Cha]

34. I didn't say I didn't trust your word, John! I just wanted to know

what was said! And as for my being "calm"...I feel like I don't have to be calm all the time!

All I did was ask if you had a link ..if you don't then that's okay.

I still would like to know what Dean said about bush being a nice guy, though. Or whatever he said.

I dunno maybe that's the smart way to go ..to not call bush on being a psychotic killer.

[JohnKleeb]

36. Sorry it felt like you were being skeptical on me

I dont have the link :(. Well sometimes you ought to be calm believe me I would know. I forget what it was though, it was like a month ago. Of course better not to call him what he really is, I bet in reality he despises the MFer as does Kerry and all of them. If I were to as a presidential candiate to go on TV and go Bush a motherfucker or a lunatic the media would ruin me. Now of course I wuoldnt say nice things about him but its not a bad or good thing that Dean and Kerry did. I just remembered something is all and the link I dont have it. Just keep in mind with the exception of the war Dean and Kerry arent so different. That is all. With respect as always. I try to be fair I really do.

[Cha]

37. I know you do, John! Try to be fair that is!

No Worries! I just remember what I and so many went through when we tried to keep bush from attacking Iraq! And I say Shame on Them for helping that little warmongering weaponsofmassdestruction muttering fool.

[CMT]

11. I agree Bush is not a good man

but to be fair Dean has said this too. It is a common thing candidates do--in one breath say, "hey he is a good man, but he has screwed up the economy..."

Why do they do this?
Swing voters according to polls don't like negative campaigning and some people out there might disagree with Bush on policy matters, but (hard to believe it) actually like him as a person.

[flyingfish]

22. Bush is from a wealthy family and was an oil salesman

Please! Good man. What a bunch of crap!!!
Photo ops on his ranch clearing away brush. Yeah, like he ever did that year-round.

[Cha]

38. I'm just curious now...did the repugs ever say Clinton was

"a good man"..."who had his heart in the right place"?

Because I think it might be more apporpriate for Clinton!

Or are they just trying to blame all the problems of the Universe on him?

[RichM]

13. The question, though well-intended, makes no real sense. This vote

was very revealing of the character of all those who voted.

If Kerry had opposed the Iraq War, he would have had to be an entirely different person than he is. He voted the way he voted because of who he is. It was not an accident, nor a "little blooper," nor a trivial meaningless detail. The vote revealed who he really is, and the type of decisions that he makes.

What was revealed is not pretty. There is no argument or rationalization that can make it pretty, either. He gave assent to a criminal use of military force, partly because he is not really opposed to most of it, & partly because he calculated that it would damage his political ambitions if he opposed the Resolution.

He was in a position where he could have been courageous, he could have spoken the truth, he could have voiced outrage at the very suggestion of using the US armed forces to commit aggressive war crimes. Not only did he fail to do this, he actually voted FOR the thing. And today, he is still trying to claim that his vote was correct, even while criticizing some limited aspects of Bush's direction of the war crime.

[CMT]

18. what you say is true

but I have felt that had Kerry not voted the way he did he would not even have to be looking over his shoulder at Dean. Dean initially was running on his health care program and the budget deficit then the war vote came up and his opposition to the war did make him a major force in this race. I liked Dean prior to the war vote, but am not sure had Kerry voted differently that I would have necessarily latched onto Dean.

However, I agree with what you write about voting for this very flawed resolution. I do think that some Democrats did vote for it because they didn't want to be labeled soft on defense. Of course there are those who voted for it because they really believed in it--both rationals scare me.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

16. I still do sort of support him.

Dean, Kerry and Kucinich are all fine candidates and my top three. Since (and I know this will probably bug JohnKleeb a bit) I know DK will not have a chance of winning. I know this is exactly what people are supposed to avoid thinking, "you're not supposed to choose who you think will win but who you want to win!", etc.). That said, I think my support waivers between Kerry and Dean. I was impressed with Kerry's performance on MTP and some clips from CNN today. Now that I've heard him, more and more I think he was lied to. I think all of them were lied to about Iraq. I think he's definitely trying to say he was wrong about the whole Iraq vote and that he wants a change.

[JohnKleeb]

19. Dont worry about it

At least you acknowledge hes a good guy and dont deny him your respect I will be fine with it. BTW as you can see I am not the only Kucinichite on the board. Also I do like Kerry despite the war vote. Dont sweat it. The fact you thought of me was kind. With thanks and understanding, Kleeb. Without Kucinich in the race and Kerry votes against the war I am for Kerry. That said if he doesnt get the nomination, Kucinich how about him in a cabinet? I sure could use him as an education or labor secretary. Dont worry about it you didnt bug me but I hope you change your mind on Kucinich, something tells me Labor Day he will do something big. I know youre being pragamatic thats fine.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

20. I could picture Kucinich as a cabinet member, actually.

Good idea. :)

[JohnKleeb]

21. If that happens its a victory

I once confused victory with absolute victory, victory could be DK rising in the house of reps, him being a popular figure on TV, etc or as I mentioned cabinet member, of course I want him as president thats absolute victory but if a president would give him a job in their cabinet I think all of we Kucinich supporters would be happy. My suggestion labor or education. You didnt bother me at all I just hope youre wrong and Kucinich can win the presidency.

[flyingfish]

23. Kucinich, how about HUD secretary?

Mayor of Cleveland.

[JohnKleeb]

28. that wouldnt be so bad

but right now I support him for president, and the very least we have to respect him and at the most we will refer to him as President Kucinich. I yearn for that day.

[cherryperry]

24. Be like DK and don't fall so easily away from him!

There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Dennis is someone's choice, that person must work as if Dennis will win! Do not think of all sorts of contingency plans at this point in time. Who knows what might be revealed about the other candidates or what terrible gaffes they might make along the way? Stick with Dennis. If he doesn't get the nomination, then is the time to make contingency plans, not now. Absolute victory should be discussed after the nomination process is completed at the convention. Right now, if you prefer DK, act as if he will be the nominee and don't give a thought that he might not! Visualize Dennis, I beg of you, until there is no reason to anymore and we are not there yet!

:yourock:

[JohnKleeb]

27. Dont worry about it I still support him

I am sticking with him but I think win or lose the primary we win. Dont worry about it cherry I wanna be respectful. Anything can happen I know. Dont worry about it cherry today I am happy as ever about DK I know hes the best.

[proud patriot]

17. I don't oppose any of them except The bush cabal

I have choosen who I'll support in the primaries ,
however after the primaries are over , I stand with
Whomever wins the nomination .

[newsguyatl]

31. very likely

i started out very early on supporting kerry... but i just couldn't mesh the reality of his vote for the illegal war, with my moral conscience...


i have no doubt, had he been anti-iraq-war and outspoken about it, he would be the man to beat right now...

[Kahuna]

32. Can't say if he would have been at the top of my list..

If Kerry wins the nomination I would happily support him. Though I will always consider him a weenie on his Iraq vote. There's just no legitimate explanation for me of why he (and the others) did it.