Anyone see CNN special on faith?

[Demfromct]

It looked hard at the evangelical movement. I was struck and a little worried about what I heard from them. I think their political prescence is going to be a problem for years to come. They are blinded by their faith. It isn't their faith in God that blinds them though. The belive their views have God's approval. You can not argue with people who are moral absolutists.

My parish priest always told us, privately, be skeptical of anyone who says they are born again. I can see why now. evangelicals take the bible literally. There is this moral certainty that they are doing God's will. The question they never consider is, can they be wrong?

And on the literal bible interpration, listen how incredible the belief is. They believe God created the earth in 7 literal days. This is huge and let's you know what you are dealing with.

Evangelicals don't belive dinosaurs existed. I have a problem if you don't think dinosaurs ever existed. To just disregard all scientific evidence drives me nuts, and this is from a practicing Catholic. I was taught in CCD and at my Catholic high school religion class that the bible stories were infallible in spiritual truth (Jesus died for us and rose), but as historical documents they are not to be interpreted as undisputed fact.

The pope would agree with me. There was no Adam and Eve or Garden of Eden per se, that story is a literary technique used to show us that we have the power of free will. We can reject God of our own volution. What more freedom can humans have than that? That is what seperates us from the rest of the animals in the universe, self-determination. It is actualy an incredibly power full story and that is clear.

And for those who think that the world will end in their lifetime: How narcisstic. Why are you so special that the world will end when you are alive? Think about that. For 2,000 years everyone who has ever lived has not seen the end of the world, but it is going to happen on your watch. Again, what makes you so special?

Where did this movement come from? As a catholic maybe I just don't get it.

[LibertyorDeath]

1. Welcome to DU &Thank you for this insightful post.

I watched it a while back and this is what came to mind.

These people are suffering from some form of mental illness.

and why am I constantly thinking of Cult members as I watch this.

[kokomo]

2. Yes, and with the Osama tape this weekend, I am uneasy.

I don't see much difference among fundamentalists regardless of which sky god they worship.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

13. Nope

Your not missing anything, you don't see any difference because there is no difference.

[ugarte]

3. I am a Christian and a Catholic and these people scare me

They are so white, live in their own perfect little white worlds and are paranoid of outsiders, i.e. people different from them. Scary stuff and nothing like early Christians.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

14. Christians are busy giving

Christ a bad name.

[Roland99]

4. Google for Christian Reconstruction or Reconstructionism

[RunningFromCongress]

5. Watching it now...

I just can't believe the stuff that comes out of that little childs mouth...it's brainwashing and nothing more.

[KharmaTrain]

6. Carol Marin - Excellent Journalist with a capital "J"

I saw this earlier...very insightful and rare for CNNservative these days.

Carol used to work on 60 Minutes II, but is best known and beloved here in Chicago for her many years on the local tube. She's formed her own production company now and this is the first of hopefully many great things she'll be doing.

BTW...she's one of the people who quit the local NBC station when they tried to let Jerry Springer do editorials in 2000.

[kokomo]

7. North Carolina newspaper even rejects Christian fundies today.....

Liberal? Right wing doesn't own the Bible

"The fall of liberalism into disrepute would not have happened without the rise of Evangelicalism as the dominant religious presence in America. Over the past three decades, the religious right has brilliantly created a huge array of radio stations, television shows, publishing houses and recording studios that have enabled them to drown out those who espouse more moderate views. The political influence of the religious right is directly related to their media power."

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031778831743&path=%21living&rendermode=preview&s=1037645509005

[DaveSZ]

8. I saw it and it scared the shit out of me too

These people want to create a theocracy out of the shell of a once free America.

[JennC]

9. Creepy!

It just looks like the deepest form of brainwashing. As an atheist most of my family and friends are aware that I am not interested in being "saved" by them or being preached at. I have been isolated from the extremes. Until this week when a neighbor I had never chatted with before had me cornered at the bus stop for a hour telling me she was born again and had considered taking her daughter out of school to homeschool because "they are taking prayer out of schools" etc. I was literally chilled to the core. And this is Massachusetts folks.. not TX. It is a very unnerving view of society and what people *need* in their lives to get happiness or fill a hole emotionally.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

15. They want to "save you"

Even if you have a religion of your own! It's not enough for the religious right to tell them you have a religion already, it must be THEIR religion!

[CrispyQ]

32. When I heard the little girl say that she had been saved at 3 . . .

...the reporter asked her if a three year old could really understand what it all meant & the girl simply recited what had been drilled into her head, "all you need to know is that you are a sinner & that Christ died for your sins."

An ironic observation: the family of this girl lived in a very nice house with a swimming pool in the backyard. I would be interested to know how much money they give to charity. And by charity, I don't mean the church. One of the churches on the show looked like an auditorium. Damn! God's got lottsa real estate & some of it's pretty fine!

Sheesh. These folks are worse than sheeple - they're like robots. And terrifying? You bet! They scare the crap out of me!

[American Tragedy]

39. the same people who bitch about sex ed & evolution in public schools

But they think the schools need to be involved in religious indoctrination!

[Merlin]

10. Key problem: cultural assent to idea that bible is "The Word Of God"

Religious people of all stripes have allowed that dangerous and preposterous notion to be perpetuated.

Today, NOBODY DARES CHALLENGE IT in polite company. Yet it is utter nonsense.

The OT is mere tribal legend and lore, spun from tales told 'round campfires more than a thousand years before Jesus time. It is in no way the "Word" of the Creator unless you think the Creator is blundering idiot.

Anybody who doubts me on this, I challenge you to read--actually READ--the Penteteuch. I wager you won't get past Exodus. But that's enough to learn that many of these tales are among the most incoherent, fantastical, racist, vile, horrific, licenscious, crude, detestible, warped tales ever told. Would the Creator write this?

Yet it is this notion that is the source of all the evils inherent in fundamentalism: male domination, homophobia, slavery affirmation, the idea of a "Chosen People," apoplexy over "spilling the seed," justification of violence and brutality and exploitation and deceit, and on and on.

If we could destroy the notion of the bible as "The Word Of God" we would go a long way toward destroying the evils (and mesmerization) of fundamentalism.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

16. I dare

I challenge it in any company all the time. To hell with polite, truth trumps polite. The christian bible is just christian mythology, in no way different from the witches bible, or the satanic bible, or any other compendium of lore. BTW, according to the legend, Jesus was a liberal.

[Merlin]

21. Actually the New Testament is somewhat different.

I was referring to the OT. The OT is a sitting duck for ridicule. All anybody has to do is crack open the book at random, point and read. It's just a bunch of tribal stories passed down over generations verbally, then finally written down by a series of unknown writers beginning in about 950 bc.

The NT is harder to argue about because it is more coherent, though also more fanciful. One needs to know details behind the NT to realize it is largely hype and propaganda and myth-making, with a few germs of truth about a real person who was a radical liberal and taught the basics of the Democratic Party's platform as his creed.

[CrispyQ]

34. LOL! You state:

"It is in no way the "Word" of the Creator unless you think the Creator is blundering idiot."

I've always thought that if humans are the pinnacle of God's creation then God ain't so hot.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Where did this movement come from?

You really have to go back to the Calvinists in the seventeenth century...a lot of Calvinist theology has always been strongly eschatological in nature. And the more psychotic elements of American Protestantism are splinters off of American Calvinism.

Europe's religious zealots came to America in droves...today, Europe is a relatively civilised place, and America has millions of deranged fundamentalist fanatics. Somehow this doesn't seem like coincidence.

[dddem]

12. reminds me of a book I read a few years ago...

called "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Scared the heck out of me. If I were God, I'd be really upset about the way these people were using my name to spread fear and prejudice. As a person of faith, I resent them using the term "Christian", when most of their belief system comes from the old testament - before Christ. They certainly do not live the way Jesus taught.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

17. u r right

yes, very handmaidien, very orwellian, and not at all Christian.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

18. What kind of prison would Jesus build?

I saw that. You're right, it was frightening.

This sort of nonsense used to stay in the background and seemed to be relegated to the uneducated and charlatans. I never heard the phrase "born again" used as an identifier before the 70's. These are the same Luddites that caused the Scopes trial.

Ever since the TV evagelists discovered that it was profitable to buy one hour blocks of time on Rural television stations, the movement has grown. The "churches" they build are more entertainment facilities than sanctuaries. Gyms, sound rooms, camera rooms, editing rooms, more office space than sanctuary space, advertising budgets, marketing teams...

God, they even have "faith based" prisons now?????

[Cleopatra2a]

27. I hate those huge churches

I've been to Rome, the Vatican etc. Can you imagine anyone traveling thousands of miles to see these pieces of crap?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

28. I was an estimator in the past and with the plethora of new buildings

these "churches" are erecting, I got lots of behind the scenes views.

You would be surprised at the amount of "one way glass" used in these buildings.

These people are fucking nuts.

[shrike]

33. Yep. They remind me of somebody's corporate headquarters

I've been in these places and yes, they sort of give me the creeps.

[lostnfound]

19. Did you see them play a movie of Bush in a huge, huge church?

It is very disturbing that people are going to church, seeing a movie on a huge video screen with George Bush on it, and it's considered religion.

[TransitJohn]

20. Yes, I watched it.

As a geologist, I had to laugh at that woman. 4.6 billion years and counting, and the world is just gonna up and end during her paltry 70 years? Puuuhhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaase.

[greekspeak]

22. This following on the heels of an hour of Southern Baptist ranting?

First the Southern Baptist Freak Show comes to CNN, then the Evangelicals get their equal time. So is it now the Christian News Network instead of the Conservative News Network? AND WHY ARE YOU WATCHING THIS CHANNEL! STOP IT!

[lawladyprof]

23. The OT was progressive

for its time in the ancient world. For example, the eye for an eye placed limitations on vengence for a wrong done to you. However, it cannot be divorced from the tribalism that it grew out of. It represents the two steps forward and one (one and a half--LOL) backward that characterizes human progress.

That tribalism (fear of the Other who might harm or destroy us) is with us to this day.

I believe the excessive religiosity of contemporary America reflects the failure of capitalism/consumerism to give meaning to life, to provide satisfaction. And now it is blended with some of the age old "sins" of humanity--greed, cruelty, fanaticism, etc.

I also think human beings have never been entirely comfortable with monotheism--hence the need to invent/create other superhuman entities (the Trinity, Virgin Mary, saints, angels) and superheroes (in contemporary America-sports stars, movie stars, and now politicians (Bush) as touched by the divine.

[MaryH]

24. It's not that dinosaurs didn't exist, its that

the world was created 5,000 years ago complete with a geological record. That explains away all of the fossils and stuff.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Not all evangelicals are like that, though. I consider myself

evangelical, but since I am a liberal universalist I don't have the pressure to convert everyone else to my own beliefs. I do, though, have my website and I promote it wherever it seems fitting, so I feel that slides me over into the evangelical category because I am putting my faith out there for others to consider.

[SarahB]

26. I did watch this.

(Not feeling so good this morning and up early with a bad cough. :()

I think the problem with any belief system that is fundamentalist in nature- Christianity, Judaism, Islam is that it seems all too easy to dehumanize those who do not believe the same as you. I mean, after all, if they're going to Hell, it makes them easier to kill, right? When one takes something and reduces it to it's most simplistic form, life becomes easier. The people who follow these sorts of paths don't really have to do any critical thinking themselves because it's all just black and white. The anti-abortion crowd for example. It's all a sin period. What happens if their young daughter is raped and becomes pregnant? Then what? A quick procedure done at less the 4 weeks when it's a mass of cells as small as a grain of rice or force her to carry a child to term telling her it's God's will? Suddenly it's not so simple, is it?

That's what differentiates thinking people from non-thinking people. Thinking people are not necessarily without faith, but realize that God and spirituality itself is far more complex than the simplistic element any of these fundamentalists types have made it.

[kayell]

29. I found something interesting for these people yesterday while googling

something else entirely (isn't that always the way)

IMO, if they've just got to stay religious, they really need to take these steps.

12 Steps for the Recovering Pharisee

1. We admit that our single most unmitigated pleasure is to judge other people.

2. Have come to believe that our means of obtaining greatness is to make everyone lower than ourselves in our own mind.

3. Realize that we detest mercy being given to those who, unlike us, haven't worked for it and don't deserve it.

4. Have decided that we don't want to get what we deserve after all, and we don't want anyone else to either.

5. Will cease all attempts to apply teaching and rebuke to anyone but ourselves.

6. Are ready to have God remove all these defects of attitude and character.

7. Embrace the belief that we are, and will always be, experts at sinning.

8. Are looking closely at the lives of famous men and women of the Bible who turned out to be ordinary sinners like us.

9. Are seeking through prayer and meditation to make a conscious effort to consider other better than ourselves.

10. Embrace the state of astonishment as a permanent and glorious reality.

11. Choose to rid ourselves of any attitude that is not bathed in gratitude.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we will try to carry this message to others who think that Christians are better than everyone else.

http://www.fischtank.com/book/12step.cfm
I don't know anything else about this guy, but that seems a reasonable start to sanity for these people.

[markus]

30. That scary little red-headed Stepford child freaked me out

These people are cultists. The Rapturists are indistinguishable from those who, a few years ago, sloughed off their mortal coil so as to join the space ships.

There was a big argument on the North Dakota mailing this several months ago when someone attacked "evangelicals", as there are a lot of churchs using that label.

I thinnk I need to send her an email to either find a new name for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, or sit back and take it, becuase--win or lose--there is going to be some sort of ugly controntation with this people in the coming years.

That fellow from the Baptists saying "we don't compromise" was pretty scary as well.

[SarahB]

31. What really scares me...

is when the Rapturists are dictating our foreign policy. :thumbsdown:

[shrike]

35. Great post. I'm a fellow Catholic

Catholic clergy also serve as astronomers, biologists and the like. I don't think the church has a problem with science (at least now, i.e., Galileo.)

A point about the fundies: They all point to the Book of Revelations. I've read Revelations and I defy anyone to make head nor tail of that thing. I read an article years ago which suggested Revelations was actually written in code for the Christians of Nero's time. Makes as much sense as anything else.

[greyfox]

36. I think that is true

"as a Catholic" you just don't get it. I do not mean that cruelly at all. You have been led by some (of us probably) to think we all believe (or don't believe) the things you mentioned.... and that is simply NOT true at all. I certainly do (or don't LOL)...

I believe that God created the world in seven days (well six) literally because that is what HIS word says; I trust it... whether He did or did not makes not one iota of change in my faith in Him.

Adam and Eve? Yes, of course, it is reality. And why not? What limits do we need to put on GOD? He is GOD, not altered by what we THINK... but much moved by what we put our FAITH in.

As to end times we have all said that for eons and MAY go on saying so because, if we think about it, "our world" does indeed end in our lifetime... when we die, we leave THIS world behind so we have come to the end of the world as we know it. Thus, as Christians, we feel it behooves us to reach as many folks as we can (in fact that is our command from Christ)...

BUT, that said, we better wake up and reach them with LOVE and compassion and not bickering as we have for so many centuries. The Christian is not better than anyone else -- er... just, better off! LOL (spiritually, we say)... and all in jest...

YOU have a right to believe... or not believe and I, nor anyone else, has a right to attack you for that belief... if we cannot discuss and guide, then (I say) leave it alone... it is, after all, our command to TELL. not to YELL!!!

Glory!

[Selwynn]

37. Well said, welcome to DU.

[shuffnew]

38. Separation of Church & State or Expect Another McCarthy era?

Your concerns of our future and direction in our country are absolute and real.

If Bush has another 4 years will we all be required to recite "The Bush Pledge"??? This mentality and behavior is scary, no doubt. I would have walked out of that rally - ceremonial or not for his supporters - raise my hand and repeat after me "The Bush Pledge"??? NOT.

It is true this great baseless division caused by some in the far-right "born again" (of various faiths, as the great division is within almost every religion now - a new church of sorts of varying religious groups who cannot even follow their own professed church doctrines) which may lead us into another McCarthy era or worse. Beware. We have been presented many challenges and this appears to be a stiff one.

We are being presented a challenge now similar to what other countries have faced in past history (most notably the German people for their mistaken support and belief in a non-secular government). By the time many of them woke up to reality, it was too late and many that dissented or were not of the selected pure nationality were crucified and killed.

Many people now seem to have totally lost their personal identity and any/all respect for America's founding documents and principles (the land of freedom that brought our forefathers to this country to get away from what some are trying to again impose upon all of us - going back to the dark ages is not the progress I wish to see). Just as some misinterpret their own church doctrines, they also ignore the morals and meaning of our founding documents - one must study the true meaning and intent of the founding of this country where our government leaders such as President, US Supreme Court justices, etc. take an oath of office to support and execute their elected or appointed positions per the US Constitution and related documents(not per one religion's bible or one church's doctrine or one distorted interpretation of such) in a "secular" and fair manner. One Nation Under One Church is not in any founding documents or in any true bible.

"Separation of Church & State" and our government leaders following their oath of office to support the US Constitution is mandatory and should be an impeachable offense if not followed. The founding principles of our country ensure us freedom to "All" -- "We, the People" and for the government not to dictate our religious belief or other freedoms set forth, but to allow us our choice of faith and belief, etc.within our legal rights.

The far-right have definitely gone overboard and there is every reason for us to have a dire concern in this matter and take action before it is too late. We are being challenged. Some of the far-right religious groups,to me, are more of baseless cults. This is scary, no doubt!

Below are just a few of the many articles and references that support the basis of my personal severe and warranted fears:

1) ONE NATION UNDER BUSH (At a campaign rally, Republicans recite the "Bush Pledge."), By Chris Suellentrop, Updated Thursday, Oct. 28, 2004, at 10:44 PM PT
http://www.slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2108852&MSID=6FA372FC56C0424B954243D3499C295E

2) "Without A Doubt"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml

3) When God becomes a campaign ploy (Oct. 27, 2004)...
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/column.php?id=740

4) Clueless people love Bush (Oct. 26, 2004)...
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=17962

5) The White House was not always God's House (Oct. 26, 2004)...
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-schlesinger26oct26,0,3577286.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

6)Battle Cry of Faithful Pits Believers Against the Rest (NY Times October 31, 2004):
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/politics/campaign/31faith.html?pagewanted=1

7) Another McCarthy era (there's many references to this theory, below is just one of many):
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9514

8) Falwell Apologies (Sept 2001) -(my comment: notice his specific statements against a secular government! Then he needs to go elsewhere and create his own country!
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/falwell.htm

9) A National Call to Prayer on Election Eve (Falwell... October 30, 2004)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41185

and the list goes on and on and on...

[Hello_Kitty]

40. Seen it? How could I not, they're running it every 5 minutes!

Seems like it anyway. Scary.

[VOX]

41. Thoughtful and outstanding post, Demfromct...

It's true -- this phenomenon of funtamentalism and moral certitude is a major problem.

People with these inflexible convictions can literally kill someone and think that it's justified, since they are certain that they have God's official stamp of approval. It is troubling, and there's no quick fix or immediate answer to this problem, I fear.

It will require an ongoing stewardship of the freedoms guaranteed us, and an assurance that the public servants we elect will perform their duties with an eye towards the greater good of all citizens, and that they will not be swayed by any interest, corporate or religious (or both), that runs contrary to rational thought and to the benefit of **all** citizens under the law.

In other words, NOT the current administration.

Welcome to DU -- :toast:

[Abelman]

42. Christianity

I have been a Christian since birth. I understood most of the stuff told to me, and had little problems understanding it. In recent years, I've had several crises of faith. Here is what I have developed as my main credos:

1) Love One Another.
2) Judge not, lest ye be judged.

That's about it. There's other things I work toward, such as a life of moderation and respect towards others, but I think many of the big groups are so concerned with saving everyone and making sure they KNOW FOR DAMN SURE that Jesus DIED that they forget he also lived and had some damn good advice for them to follow.

So many think that they are so wonderful because they are saved, and that everyone else is just gum on their shoe. People are supposed to recognize a Christian for their love. True Christianity is very seldom found - and I pray I have found it.