When did they steal America away from you?

[Swede]

I am Canadian,I know when,I know where,I am terrified,when did you guys realise you guys were not the good guys no more.


There is an old joke,you guys call us cheeseheads,but you don't know why. We call you warmongering assholes,but we know why.

[Cobalt Violet]

1. When America fell for REagan.

Somethings have never recovered since then.

[Seabiscuit]

28. Exactly. 1980. "Trickle Down Economics" and Ronny Rayguns

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. That's my answer, too

I still remember sitting in the living room of my grad student apartment with three friends, groaning in disbelief as state after state went for Reagan.

That's when I realized that the majority of people in this country had taken on a mentality that seemed absurd to me.

[Seabiscuit]

44. Exactly.

"Ketchup is a vegetable." "Trees are the worst polluters." And this country elected that retard. I remember exactly how I felt: even after Nixon and Watergate, this country had finally totally gone to the dogs. That's also when I became so disgusted I ignored politics until the freeptards went after Clinton in goose-step fashion about the Lewinsky thing. I finally woke up from my political slumber and realized this country was in much bigger trouble than I'd ever imagined - and the media had become part of the problem.

It's been all downhill from there.

"Obiwan - you're our only hope." May the force finally be with us.

[Cat Atomic]

50. Same here.

[Longhorn]

2. When they impeached Clinton.

I remember where I was when I heard the result of the House vote. This wasn't an America I wanted to live in any more, but now I have hope that we'll get it back!

[Swede]

3. Your answer gives me hope.

Surely there are good people in the Bush administration

[Rebellious Republican]

4. Surely you jest, they have all left "To spend more time with their Family"

[Dez]

5. Bush has no good people in his Cabinet

Bush doesn't want to hear disagreement. He only wants to hear those who agree with him. If one disagrees, they're history.

I have lived in BC. I would much rather live in BC than here, but that takes money which I don't have to emigrate. I wish I could.. it is much better up there, no guns, no ghettos, just lots of friendly people :-)

Dez

[Swede]

12. It must be strange to not have to worry about guns.

I can not imagine pissing off a commuter or a neighbour and a frowning match breaks out.

[Rebellious Republican]

24. Hence my statement, any that may have been good are gone!

Welcome,I see you are new, we have a tendency to use a lot of sarcasm around here.

Have you ever noticed how people that defy the boy king seem to leave, and the most common explanation for their departure is.....

:think:

[ilovenicepeople]

33. HOWDY Dez BC says HELLO to you and all DUer's

Welcome to DU:hi:

[GreenPoet64]

38. After 9/11 when the WH assigned seats to reporters for press conferences

and when I realized that so MANY foreign papers (through the internet) were reporting stories that went under reported here.

Loss of freedom of press.

[villager]

6. Memphis. And the Ambassador Hotel.

1968.

I was nine.

I began to see.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Wasn't that the Lorraine Motel?

MLK was on the balcony when he was shot.

[Spiffarino]

30. I think the Ambassador was in L.A.

...where RFK was murdered the same year about two months later. I can understand the confusion. It was a traumatic time to live through. Hoover was offing anyone who might stand in his way.

[serryjw]

41. Ambassador Hotel 1968.......

you were 9 I was 18........ and I was there

[morgan2]

7. I think the real question is

Was America ever the good guy, or did our interests just happen to fall on the side of good for a while?
Yes there are good people in America and the American government, but as a country how often have we taken the side of good just for goodnesses sake? For years we chose expedience and profits over doing good, slavery. For years we chose to commit genocide gainst the native americans so we could be better off. The only reason America has this reputation of being the good guy in the world is because of World War II, which we only entered into after we were attacked. We then promoted ourselves as the good guy throughout the cold war. In many cases we did take the side of good, but many we chose the side of brutal dictators. The only thing constant was we chose the side of our monetary interests. Most of the America as the "bastion of freedom" is just self praise and hype. Yes we have more freedoms than many countries, but we are by no means a shinning example as we like to tell people.

[yardwork]

8. I think about that a lot. Our country was founded on blood and conquest

and lies and broken promises and slavery and genocide and massacres. But then, so was just about every other country.

The bigger questions are: Why are a lot of people assholes? And why do the assholes always grab the power?

[shraby]

9. When they assassinated John Kennedy.

It's been downhill from there.

[Swede]

10. France lost 500,000 people in WWII and yet you velify the country.

The us lost half that. France were peace mongers,Germay wasn't. So why would you judge them by today;s standered.s

[Spiffarino]

31. Just a reminder

..."we" don't vilify the French. A minority of loud, foul-mouthed, right-wing nutjobs do.

[Mel]

13. Yea, you got it

and this poem by Langston Hughes says it best for me

Let America Be America Again
Langston Hughes

Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed--
Let it be that great strong land of love
Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty
Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
But opportunity is real, and life is free,
Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me,
Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark?
And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope,
Tangled in that ancient endless chain
Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land!
Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need!
Of work the men! Of take the pay!
Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil.
I am the worker sold to the machine.
I am the Negro, servant to you all.
I am the people, humble, hungry, mean--
Hungry yet today despite the dream.
Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers!
I am the man who never got ahead,
The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream
In the Old World while still a serf of kings,
Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true,
That even yet its mighty daring sings
In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned
That's made America the land it has become.
O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas
In search of what I meant to be my home--
For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore,
And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea,
And torn from Black Africa's strand I came
To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me?
Surely not me? The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.
The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME--
Who made America,
Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain,
Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain,
Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose--
The steel of freedom does not stain.
From those who live like leeches on the people's lives,
We must take back our land again,
America!

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

[morgan2]

21. good poem couldnt have put it better myself

Its very interesting how almost everyone in the US thinks it was perfect at some point in the past. Everyone wants to revert back to some state. I think we all need to admit that the US was never perfect. We were founded on good ideas, but we still havent put them into practice. If we all come to this conclusion maybe the whole idea of the United States being perfect will be over. Its very harmful, because it lets people explain away anything our government has done.

[Ladyhawk]

37. Yes. Very true.

I hadn't read that poem for a long time.

We teach such a watered-down version of history in our schools. I grew up thinking Americans had always been the good guys, that we were the shining beacon for the whole world. Only recently have I learned about some of our really horrific history. Shame on us for not telling the children the truth.

[A Simple Game]

40. We were good guys directly after WWII.

We helped rebuild Germany and Japan. Yes there were probably monetary interests involved, but both countries turned out well.

Does anyone think Iraq will end up as well as Germany and Japan did?

[Ripley]

11. go away

[Swede]

15. ok

you too.

[Ripley]

14. Loser...you are.

and loser you will be.

The future is dedicated towards new.

[Swede]

16. good answer.

I'm impressed.

[Dez]

17. BC is better

When I lived in the Northwest, near the BC border, I would drive up to Vancouver all the time! And I instantly felt more free as soon as I crossed that Northern border. I didn't have to worry about some gun totin' asshole on the roads, and people up there were just more friendlier. I loved going up there! Now I live back in Az, and I don't have the option to drive to freedom anymore *sigh*..

Dez

[Swede]

18. I do believe you are a ahem Freeper.

Please refute.

[Dez]

19. What's a Freeper?

I probably should know..

Dez

[Swede]

20. Dez I was talking to the Freeper.

If yo stick around you can't miss them. They stick to you like shit to blanket.

[Dez]

22. Freepers

I guess the assholes are everywhere, in every group of people..
Where in Canada are ya? I miss watching CBC! This Hour Has 22 Minutes!

Dez

[Technowitch]

23. When Reagan committed treason by negotiating with Iran...

...to keep the hostages until after the election, in return for shipments of arms.

That's when I knew there were some people who would do anything for power, especially the right wing extremists.

Ever since then, it's been a constant battle here. Even when we won with Clinton, they denied him legitimacy and nearly impeached him over a friggin' affair. (But they won't even investigate Bush taking us to war over lies. Go figure.)

We are hoping, finally, that enough people have woken up for us to take our democracy back again. Please wish us luck and say a prayer for us.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

25. They haven't, yet.

And I'll be damned if they ever do. It's just not going to happen.

[Lizzie Borden]

26. When I started seeing the civil rights struggles

when I was a little girl, and I realised that America wasn't America for a whole segment of our population. Since then, there have been many events that substantiated that notion. When I look at are whole history, I have to wonder if America has ever been America, or has it all been just a giant PR spin.

[Dez]

27. The American Dream

It was only meant for WHITE Americans. Not people of color.

Dez

[DaveSZ]

32. "Surely there are good people in the Bush administration"

All the ones who tried to be in any way responsible and not beholden to corporate interests were either fired or forced to resign.

[Logansquare]

35. John Dilulio, Richard Clarke, Paul O'Neil all had to resign

In this administration, there is no room for conservatives who happen to have souls.

[Logansquare]

34. Don't you know? It's been a struggle for our entire existence

It started with slavery and the violent removal of native Americans from their land. The blood of over 600,000 men drenched our soils during a bitter civil war. Thousands of black Americans were murdered in an organized campaign of racial terrorism. Hired thugs killed and cracked skulls of workers who were striking for enough bread for their families. People lived in stinking slums, while others enjoyed gilded palaces built by the blood and sweat of the poor. Each time, a great leader or a great movement pushed back the forces of greed, of inequality, of hatred. It isn't the first time they have tried to steal America from us, and it won't be the last.

[Cookie wookie]

39. Have often wondered if Clinton has

had regrets about signing the 1996 Telecommunications Act. Before that, at least the media wasn't almost totally right wing. Don't think the impeachment effort could have gotten as far as it did without the media pushing it.

[Cookie wookie]

42. For me it was the Clinton impeachment debacle

I watched all the Judiciary hearings, saw the railroading of the President, saw the Republicans railing about the Rule of Law and then undermining the law, saw the media lying and misleading, couldn't find any sanity in the media anywhere, read NYT articles about the hearings and saw their misleading reports. Leave out a little here, add a little there. It scared me to the bone. It was an attempted coup. And when the Supreme Court appointed Bush, the coup was complete.

Tuesday, we must stop them.

[timtom]

43. When they killed Kennedy

and G.H.W. Bush was in the neighborhood that day...

[AngryLizard]

45. 2000 Election

I couldn't believe what I was seeing, and hearing. The BLATANT disenfranchisement of thousands of blacks, the BLATANT politicization of the Supreme Court, and just a bunch of dead air afterwards.

It wasn't so much that we weren't good guys anymore, it just that we let the right-wingers take over, and they're just so over the top with it. Like Stephen Colbet said, their attitude is "Fuck us. Who the hell cares what we think?"

I know a lot of people who've been saving their anger for the voting booth this year. I'm tired of feeling like I have to defend my country's actions around the world. I'm tired of the bullshit that's being done in my name.

[expatriate]

46. America has never been "innocent" ...

We believe in a nostalgic notion of America at different points in history - the brave pioneers, the noble Union soldiers freeing the slaves, Honest Abe Lincoln, the friendly Indians helping the Pilgrims, the Fifties a la Happy Days, etc.

We don't remember that the pioneers were often desperate people who came to America in various forms of indentured servitude, or were people who had run out of options in the Eastern US and had to try a little further out west. Most Americans don't know the real story behind the Civil War. Most Americans don't know that The Great Emancipator told Frederick Douglas that the two races could not ever coexist, and wanted to send the freed slaves "back" to Africa. When people think about the Fifties, they think Fonzie, poodle skirts, wholesome happy people living on a Norman Rockwell town - they don't think McCarthy Hearings (in which Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagun both played a large part), the Korean War, the arms race and a buildup of a military industrial complex so huge that even hawk Eisenhower warned of it getting out of control.

Most Americans have very little idea how many Native Americans were deliberately targeted for annihilation by the US Government, or how many have died as the direct result of US Government policy.

Still, for me, things truly went catawumpus when Reagan was elected. I can remember crying at the time. I couldn't believe people were so schilled, so dense, that they could elect some grandstanding actor just because he could look into the camera and act all grandfatherly and wise, when he was actually in the early stages of Alzheimer's Disease. That's when I knew that my suspicion that the erosion of American education was no fluke - that people had become so ignorant and so entranced by mass media that they were willing to accept something that was so flagrantly false.

[Cookie wookie]

47. Thought about this some more

the question, "...realise you guys were not the good guys...."

Our Constitution and Bill of Rights still stand. Those politicians, while spouting patriotic zeal, and yet working to destroy the foundational principles of our government, including open attacks on free speech, freedom of the press, the right to organize and protest, the right to vote and have every vote counted, those who profess to abide by the rule of law and instead do everything they can to undermine it, they are not the USA. They are criminals who must be brought to justice and punished according to the laws of this land.

All Americans are not the "bad guys," just those responsible for promoting and maintaining the corrupt and lawless band of barbarians that currently have the reins of power in the US in their deadly grip.

That this group of craven thugs are seen as representing all of the US is another crime. Maybe half a million people took to the streets to protest during the Republican convention. Millions of Americans are working every day to lawfully defeat the current criminal regime, and are fighting with all our hearts, minds and souls to to take America back from the grip of this terrible, destructive immoral group.

It must be emphasized too, that the leaders of the multinational corporations who are responsible for the degredation of our democracy are not just American citizens. These people are citizens from countries all over the world and are just as dangerous to world freedom and peace as the zealots of Al Queda and other terrorist groups. Just look at the names on the rosters of the boards and leaders of the multinationals.

[Ima]

48. desert..excellent post

There are plenty of us good guys left, watch us after Kerry is elected President.;-)

[Cookie wookie]

51. The first task is to regain real journalism

truth and balance in the news media. No other priority, after getting Kerry in office, is more important, because the only way the fascists have gained the support to do what they've done is with the aid and complicity of the media: print, radio, and film.

This movement to take back the media isn't about stifling free speech. It's about separating journalism in the US from political control, whatever and however that can be accomplished. The citizens must have unbiased news programs that give them the facts so they can make informed decisions about our government.

Those who contribute here all have witnessed with shock and awe the ease with which almost half the country has been controlled and manipulated politically against their own best interests and that of our society.

The media monopolies must not only be stopped from growing, but we need mass Teddy Roosevelt-style monopoly busting. The more opinions and the less powerful the media distributing those opinions, the better for the survival of our republic.

The airwaves belong to the American people, not the multinational media corps.

Second on the list, we need a Burning Man Festival, only this one to celebrate trucking all evoting machines out to the desert and leaving them to rot like alien carcasses, as a monument to mass stupidity or the folly of trying to steal OUR votes.

[maveric]

49. November 22 1963

A political coup'detat<sp> and the removal of a popular, progressive president via state controlled/assisted assasination.
Thats the day that democracy died in the USA.