Best way to handle pro-lifers?

[FrankenforMN]

I have a lot of republican voters in my family, and the ONLY reason they give for voting republican is that they are the pro-life party. I have tried everything: 1. Explaining that pro-life democrats do exist. 2. Explaining why abortion is necessary in some health related instances, and in cases of rape or incest. 3. Why women should have the right to choose what is right for them 4. How republicans have had the House, Senate, and the White House for four years and it is still legal, so they are just wasting their votes. Yet they are still unconvinced. Any suggestions?

[Birthmark]

1. Barbeque tongs.

[giant_robot]

44. *rimshot* n/t

[UpsideDownFlag]

2. ask them if they support the death penalty. nt

[Infomaniac]

3. There was a recent thread about the abortion rate increasing under Bush.

Try to search and see if you can find it. The number one reason women choice abortion is the lack of financial resources. There are lots more women in the positon of having an uncertain future in this economy.

[FrankenforMN]

10. This could be very interesting if it is true.

I'll do some research. Thanks

[knitter4democracy]

29. It sure seems to be

I mean, the guy who wrote it is a Christian ethics prof at Fuller Theological Seminary. It's a great article.

[FrankenforMN]

32. I found it thanks

Here is the link if anyone else is interested in reading about it: http://yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_14332.shtml

[AngryOldDem]

58. The rate decreased under Clinton

by about 200,000 I think (don't have the stats handy).

The abortion rate actually FELL under a Dem president. That should get their heads spinning, and also lead into a discussion about how the economy can have an effect on many things in an individual's life.

[Radio-Active]

4. tell them how Bush got an abortion for his girlfriend back in the day

or tell them how abortions have gone UP while Bush was in office.

Or tell them that George, his wife, and his dad, have all been pro-choice in the past. What's to say they still aren't?

Basically, tell them they are being played and manipulated.

[FrankenforMN]

8. I was unaware of this...any proof?

[Radio-Active]

24. you were unaware of which point?

Sorry, but I don't have any links handy here.

There is as much proof that he paid for an abortion, as proof that he snorted cocaine, but well.. you know.

His father was pro-choice in his debates with Reagan, but adopted Reagan's view as VP. Bush told reporters in 1999 that he thought abortion was between a "woman and her doctor". Laura Bush also told reporters she was pro-choice.

Most of the Bush clan has been pretty much pro-choice, but they are all making a political exception. I know Laura Bush would not approve if her husband helped overturn Roe V. Wade

[FrankenforMN]

31. I was unaware that he paid for an abortion

[Bunny]

61. google Robin Lowman. n/t

[Booster]

17. Tell them when a reporter asked G.H.W. Bush if one of his

granddaughters told him she was going to have an abortion what would he do? His answer was (paraphrasing)"well, I would try to talk her out of it as best I could, but it would be ultimately her choice." He said that because this isn't a problem for the rich; they just send them off to Paris, it's done and nobody is the wiser. It's the poor who have the problem. I would also mention that it's the Republicans who don't care about the kids once they are born and shame the parents who can't put them in private schools, etc. Tell them they should be ashamed of Republicans for this very reason. I would also ask them if it's made illegal, what punishment should the girl have to suffer, and what punishment should the people she confided in have to suffer, like her mother, father, boyfriend or friends she may have talked to before the abortion. I can't believe we are still having this problem; people are just plain closed minded. Ask the older ones if they remember how women got abortions before it was made legal - I'll bet they do. If that doesn't work, tell them to go to Hell. (just kidding)

[friesianrider]

5. Ask them how many children they've adopted...

And how many hours they've logged volunteering at orphanages. Usually shuts them up pretty quickly. Tell them to put their money where their mouth is and fill their homes with children whose mothers "chose life". If they don't, then I'd tell them their opinion is 150% irrelevent.

[FrankenforMN]

13. I agree entirely

The hypocrisy is clearly evident. It is easy to tell someone what to do if you have never been in that situation, and you are not doing anything to solve the problem. However, I'm not sure this would change their thoughts on voting for a democrat : /

[intheflow]

14. Ooooh! I always wanted to get little cards made up with that saying

and stick them under the windshield wipers of cars that have "pro-life" bumper stickers on them! Tee-hee!

[davhill]

28. There are a lot of Pro-life people who do

Work with mothers who choose life. Beta house is one example. Helping wiht adoption is another, though the dificulty of finding children available for adoption in this country has forced many to go to third world countries.

[Virginian]

45. adoption is outsourced.

Getting children from third world countries, isn't that outsourcing. Republicans like outsourcing, Abortion leads to outsourcing for adoption.
It's half baked, just thought of that angle.

How about Life does not end at Birth.

Do they really think abortions would not happen if they were illegal?

These old white men who write the abortion laws have no idea what it is like to be a pregnant woman. Do they really think a woman would want to kill her unborn child if she had other options? John Kerry wants to make this country a place where babies are welcome and not an insurmountable burden a place where a woman does not have to make that difficult choice.

[friesianrider]

63. I've met none.

My Mom works in a Catholic hospital, and she knows literally hundreds of pro-lifers. None of them have adopted kids, or have ever set foot in an orphanage, by their own admission.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. THAT is my favorite question.

One pro-life freeper (now tombstoned) who posted here on DU one day gave me an answer to that question, it was "I don't want to adopt a 7 or 8 year old child. I want a BABY." :grr: Those 7 and 8 years old children USE to be babies that NO ONE wanted! The pro-lifers are hypocrites. Unless they have adopted a house full of kids, they need to just mind their own damn business and keep their noses out of other people's lives.

[Dorian Gray]

38. Jeez....

I hate that adoption question. For one, I know five families that are vehemently anti-abortion. Three of those families have either adopted kids or they have had foster kids live with them for years. Many of my friends are pro-choice, and guess what? A number of them have also adopted kids or been foster parents.

Plus, my dad is extremely religious and anti-abortion. And guess what? I was adopted. My natural mother gave birth to me when she was sixteen, couldn't raise me, and a nice little family took in a stranger's child to raise her as their own.

The adoption question is disingenuous, also. There are better arguments, most of which have been stated in this topic already, when trying to convince voters who are one-topic voters to NOT vote for Bush. And one of those arguments is the history of the Bush family's voting/opinion on this very topic!

[friesianrider]

65. You are obviously an exception...

Because I've met hundreds of pro-lifers and I ask each one of them this question. Know how many have adopted? One!

I'd bet money that well over 60% of pro-lifers have never adopted a child, or a crack baby, or (horror of horrors) a minority baby who has AIDS.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

6. Ask them how they feel about Iraqi babies being bombed

Not to mention all of the uninsured children in this country that the repugs couldn't care less about. No child left behind? What a joke.

For republican pro-lifers it seems that the value of a baby's life ends at birth.

[Nite Owl]

7. I don't know your family but why

be on the defensive. Ask them what the Republicans do for life when it is already born? Why do they abandon the living. Health care is and issue here as well as a war we are in because of their deception. Are they for the death penalty? We are not suddenly given the right to take someones life, there are alternative penalties for those who have committed crimes. 'Revenge is not ours.'

[tuvor]

9. Best way? Just respect where we're coming from.

I love our very own Auntie Pinko's article on the subject:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/auntie/02/65.html

Also, remind them that bush can't have it both ways, saying he's pro-life while bombing indiscriminately. How many innocent Iraqis has he killed? (Don't ask it rhetorically!) Hold your family to that. Iraqis are people just like anyone else, and how would they like it if they were having their families killed and torn apart by some foreign authority who couldn't really decide why he was doing it?

I dunno if that helped at all, but good luck!

[K8-EEE]

11. Ask Them Why Bush Did Not Answer The Question...

...in the debate about wanting to overturn Roe v. Wade. This was THE perfect chance for him to defend all the Bay-beez! He just completely hedged. Why don't they ask him to say: I don't support abortion rights. I want abortion illegal.

He's never said it and he never WILL say it because he wants abortion legal -- so he can continue to count on stupid one-issue voters, like them. They're being played, in other words.

[gulliver]

47. Yup. And why a Constitutional Amendment in one case and not ...

... the other? Gay marriage -- constitutional amendment. "Baby-killing" -- no constitutional amendment.

Bush does nothing but give lip service to the pro-lifers. Republicans want this issue, so they never propose anything that will stop abortions. They just propose things that will prolong the battle.

Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, most states would keep abortion legal. So the Supreme Court argument that is used to hold gullible pro-lifers is completely meaningless. They are essentially voting against their own economic and social interests for nothing more than forcing some women to have to get abortions out of state.

[July]

54. And why in 4 yrs. w/a Republican Congress he didn't do it? nt

[Cleita]

12. Well for one I would insist that they not call themselves

pro-lifers, but anti-abortionists. Then you can point out all the ways that they aren't pro-life if they don't believe you. I mean are they hunters? Do they think collateral damage is okay in wars? Do they eat meat or eggs? Do they believe in capital punishment?

You could ask them why a blob of cells that have the same evolutionary status as a sponge is more important than a human being, who maybe through no fault of her own finds herself with a pregnancy that would be disasterous for her to go through no matter what the reasons are? That's a start anyway, but I doubt if you will even get that far into the debate. That would require an open mind on their part.

[Heidi]

18. Man, do I get tired of liberals being painted . . .

as "pro-abortion" when, in fact, all the liberals I know support a woman's right to CHOOSE. That means the right to choose to carry a pregnancy to term, too, as well the right to choose to get pregnant in the first place, the right to choose to not get pregnant, and the right to choose to adopt.

I think I'm going to print up some T-shirts to give to all of my friends for Christmas. On the front, they'll say, "I am a choice," and on the back they'll say, "Proud supporter of U.S. Constitution and a woman's right to choose."

[TahitiNut]

15. How would they feel if the government REQUIRED them to have an abortion?

Placing power over reproductive choice in the hands of the government is a two-edged sword. The power to PROHIBIT abortion (under some conditions) is the equivalent of the power to REQUIRE abortion (under some conditions).

Right now, "pro-life" advocates can CHOOSE to act in accordance with their principles. Nothing stops them, and society (oh the evils of socialism!) provides support in the form of tax breaks and services. That right to choose should not be denied to others.

[FrankenforMN]

16. Thanks for the help guys!

I appreciate the help. Your arguments are all very pointed, they seem pretty logical, and I agree with you %100. I will certainly mention these things to them the next time we are together.

[DjTj]

19. Ask them if abortion is really the most important issue in 2004...

Shouldn't the lives of over 1,000 Americans in Iraq be an issue?
Shouldn't the lives of 35 million living in poverty in America be an issue?
Shouldn't the 26 million Americans without health insurance be an issue?

If unborn children are their concern, should we be giving tax cuts to the rich while welcoming children into the world with $7 trillion in debt?

...in some elections, the candidates are not very far apart on most issues, and pro-life vs. pro-choice can be the tipping point, but in this election there is a lot more at stake. Ask them to look at the big picture in 2004.

[jean]

20. repubs have had the presidency for 20 of the last 28 years, have had

the congress for (what?) 9 years? They have a pliant Supreme Court that appointed bush in 2000. Okay, that last one, your relatives won't agree with.

When do your relatives think the repubs are going to finally spring into action and dump Roe v Wade? What have they been waiting for? What more needs to happen for them to have the total control to do it?

Someone on DU said to remind single issue (abortion) voters that when you give the government the power to tell a woman she cannot have an abortion, it also may eventually tell her she must have one.

If the fetus is sacred to them what about sperm? Do they think men should control their own sperm or ability to reproduce? What if a man has a genetic condition that will be passed on to his offspring and will result in costly insurance and public school expenditures for the community? Should the government insist on vasectomy for such men? Women can't be trusted to know what's good for them, why should men be trusted?

Maybe if the government IS given control over reproductive and sexual issues for women it won't be long before it futzes around with men. Tell your relatives this could set a precedent - first the women, then gov't will come for your nuts. And you nuts.

[Nordic]

21. outlawing abortion = bringing back prohibition

I tell them that women will get abortions anyway.

The poor women will die, and the rich ones will go away to other countries and get them safely.

The reason abortion is legal NOW is because at one time it was ILLEGAL. And we saw the results of THAT.

It's the same reason that alcohol is legal NOW because we tried to outlaw it and it WENT VERY BADLY.

Duh! (okay, I'd leave out the "duh!")
.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

48. Exactly... Check out "The Cider House Rules" book

A good fiction book about this topic is "The Cider House Rules". The movie is isn't nearly as good as the book (I didn't care for the movie), and I don't recall the movie getting into the abortion issue. The book is a good read. It does a nice job of handling the reality of the abortion issue (and a good job of expressing the pro-choice perspective). This was required reading in my 12th grade English class. Some people might be offended by the language, if they can't handle curse words.

[pop goes the weasel]

22. Romania

Under Ceaucescu (sheesh, it's been so long, I don't really remember how to spell that name!), birth control and abortion were illegal. Women were forced to carry to term every viable pregancy. The result was a nightmare of abandoned children, many of who died from lack of care in the over-stretched orphanages. Romania as an example of government "pro-life" policy and China as an example of government "population control" policy together demonstrate why it is safer and more life-affirming to leave reproductive decision-making at the individual level. One woman can make the wrong decisions regarding herself, but she can't possibly make the wrong decisions for hundreds of thousands the way government can.

[eridani]

23. Give them this leaflet

Fits nicely on a regular 8 1/2 x 11 sheet, with larger fonts for the header and other areas of emphasis.

MORE ABORTIONS UNDER BUSH ADMINISTRATION

Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4-percent decline during the 1990s. This was a steady decrease averaging 1.7 percent per year. (The data come from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life, using the Guttmacher Institute's studies.)

Enter George W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the opposite happened.

We found four states that have posted three-year statistics: Kentucky's increased by 3.2 percent from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by 11.3 percent from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9 percent from 1999 to 2002. Colorado's rates skyrocketed 111 percent. We found 12 additional states that reported statistics for 2001 and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6-percent average increase), and five saw a decrease (4.3-percent average decrease).

Under Bush, the decade-long trend of declining abortion rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s, 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002 than would have been expected before this change of direction.

For anyone familiar with why most women have abortions, this should be no surprise:

• Two-thirds of women who have abortions cite "inability to afford a child" as their primary reason (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). In the Bush presidency, unemployment rates increased half again. Not since Herbert Hoover had there been a net loss of jobs during a presidency until the current administration. Average real incomes decreased, and for seven years the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation. With less income, many prospective mothers fear another mouth to feed.

• Half of all women who abort say they do not have a reliable mate (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). And men who are jobless usually do not marry. In the 16 states, there were 16,392 fewer marriages than the year before, and 7,869 more abortions. As male unemployment increases, marriages fall and abortion rises.

• Women worry about health care for themselves and their children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance now than before this presidency - with women of childbearing age overrepresented in those 5.2 million - abortion increases.

What does this tell us? Economic policy and abortion are not separate issues; they form one moral imperative. Rhetoric is hollow, mere tinkling brass, without health care, health insurance, jobs, child care and a living wage. Pro-life in deed, not merely in word, means we need a president who will do something about jobs and health insurance and support for prospective mothers.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/news/opinion/9910550.htm

[dorktv]

25. Show them the info about the increase in abortions

and then show them a picture of a woman who has had a botched illegal abortion. Usually people who are opposed have never seen one.

[gardenia]

26. Ask if abortion is outlawed who is held accountable-woman?doc?man?

Tim Russert used this approach with J DeMint, Senate candidate in Sunday's debate on Meet the Press. Ask these "do gooders" if abortion becomes illegal what penalty would they support for breaking the law and who would be held accountable. Make them face the reality of what life would be like if abortion were no longer legally available by saying it is a debate that we have to engage in since if Bush is elected it looks like Roe v. Wade would be overturned.

[Justice]

27. It is wrong to label pro-lifers as you have

You have republican voters in your family, who are voting for bush because they are republicans. They may also be pro-life, and perhaps for them, the only issue is abortion - but for most people - on either side of that issue - this is not the only issue.

Being pro-life means - being pro-life. Life does not end at birth.
Republicans want to force the child to be borne, but once borne, they view their job as complete and then they simply abandon the child. That is not right - it is not Christian or any other faith's teaching.

There were studies that I read about on DU for three states - Kentucky, Michigan and one other mid-west state that showed that abortion rates actually increased during Bush*s term. The choices women make when pregnant are made because of money, support and healthcare access. During 2001-2003 (inclusive), many women lost healthcare, jobs and money - their partners as well. A strong economy helps women make a choice that allows them to keep the child. I am not saying that all women make that choice, I am only saying that this study shows that more women chose abortion when the economy was bad, and gave as their reason(s) for the choice - their financial condition.

This point is in addition to the other points where republicans seemed to favor death over life - no gun control, death penalty, war, etc.

[davhill]

30. Are there any Democrats on a National Level

Who are pro-life? Kosinich is the only one who comes to mind. There are a number of pro-choice Republicans though.

[mac56]

50. "We love the babies UNTIL they're born!"

nm

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Wrap up some wire clothes hangers for them and give them a gift.

They'll need them if Roe v. Wade is overturned. Tell them the horror stories of pre legalized abortion and ask them if life ends at birth? The death penalty and the mass murders in Iraq should turn them against the chimp if they are really PRO-LIFE.

[fob]

35. You've tried logic to no avail, go with bullshit.

Tell them God told you that your family members who voted republican were going to hell unless they repented and voted Democratic. God, as you know works in mysterious ways and this is no exception. God has made it "appear" that the gop is the pro-life party but this is actually one of those tests where the obvious is the lie. God has given hints by putting a warmongering, killing-machine, emotionless person as the face of the gop (bush*) and the election on 11/2 is the final exam. Those that pull the lever for bush* fail and will go to HELL, forever ad ever amen.


edit: After you tell them that, just continue to reply to hem by adding "sinner" instead of their name.

EX:

Dad - "Hey pass me the salt"
You - "You got it, sinner"

[rbnyc]

36. Policies supported by pro-choicers reduce abortions...

...more effectively than those generally endorsed by anti-choice policy makers. Promoting birth control and sex education is a better way to reduce unwanted pregnancies than gag rules and abstinence-only education. Tell them that. What can they say?

[IrateCitizen]

37. "Life doesn't end with birth"

That's the rebuttal against RW Christian Fundamentalists put out by the National Council of Churches, a mainstream Protestant group. Ask them if they support contraception. Ask them if they support policies that will take care of all these new children after they are born, like public-subsidized child care, increased educational funding, and so on. Ask them if they support the death penalty and the war on Iraq.

BTW -- the NCC is headed by Rev. Bob Edgar, a former DEMOCRATIC Congressman from PA.

[geek tragedy]

39. Explain that a concern for "life" encompasses war, death penalty, poverty

environmentalism, etc etc.

[nonconformist]

40. They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice... point that out

Short answer - if they support the death penalty and pre-emptive pointless war, they're not "pro-life". Everyone should be inherently "pro-life" anyway, this about a choice.

Sorry, one of my peeves. I always use the term "Anti-Choice" because it's more appropriate.

Long answer - you're not going to change their mind about abortion, so don't even go there. Trust me on this. They will close their mind to everything you have to say if you go that route. So go another way and approach them prepared. Print out statistics of abortion rates under the last few presidents. Print out studies that have shown that abortions increase with poverty and limited social services. Then attack Bush on the economy and job loss, and show that while Bush talks hard about abortion he's actually just creating an environment where they happen more frequently. Print charts. Show them that while Bush may say he doesn't agree with abortion he's also stated before that he wouldn't try to overturn Roe vs. Wade (ok, we all know this is bullshit probably, but point it out). Let them know that Kerry has similar views, in that because of his faith he doesn't necessarily agree with abortion but he has to be president to all of the people and abortion has been legal for 31 years. Print out statistics of abortion-related deaths before it was legal. Try to get them to understand that while you understand that they object to abortion on a moral standpoint, so do many other democrats but this is just too vital of an election to simply vote based on one, albeit important to them, issue. Be understanding and kind, if possible - if you reject their views as hogwash you won't get anywhere with them.

Good luck. I wish there was a magic answer to this question, because this is probably this biggest wedge issue in the history of politics.

[July]

55. I think of them as "anti-free-will" and "anti-privacy."

Those of us who support legal abortion have followed our consciences on the subject, just as those who are against it have. Secondly, it's really nobody's business.

[goddess40]

41. Why is abortion OK for rape and incest?

First I am a 100% Pro-choice.

I just don't get that argument. If those cells are a life why is a 'baby' who happens to be sired by a rapist less of a 'baby'. Is it that a women's DNA isn't as valuable as the man's DNA? Can it be that those that oppose abortion except under these circumstance, I think most do allow this exception, can justify 'killing' a person under these circumstances but no other? I just don't get it.

I don't bring this up with pro-lifers because I surely don't want them to get any ideas to get even more obsessed with controlling women's lives.

[gratuitous]

42. Pro-life? Do they even have time to vote?

I mean, shouldn't they be going to funerals, jumping on the coffin and screaming "GET OUT!! GET OUT OF THERE RIGHT NOW!!"

Otherwise, I'd say their whole "pro-life" position is just a pose.

[noamnety]

43. talk to them about birth control access

The most effective way to reduce abortions is to encourage the use of birth control.
The people Bush has appointed to positions in the FDA oppose birth control. Even most pro-lifers agree that birth control stops unwanted pregnancies. Some of your pro-life family members have probably used birth control. Would they want their access to be cut off?

http://ideamouth.com/appointments_and_disappointments.htm

More and more, women ARE being denied access to birth control by right wing fundamentalists.

http://www.prevention.com/cda/feature2002/0,2479,s1-7342-P,00.html
http://www.alternet.org/rights/19584

The laws they are pushing through the system currently are designed to even further limit access to birth control.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0410/10/b01-298475.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=159x919

[porphyrian]

46. Many Democrats are pro-life...

...and less hypocritically than the republicans, as pro-life Democrats are also against the death penalty. The Democratic party just doesn't believe it is the government's place to make this decision.

[Selwynn]

49. Try this triple threat approach:

1. Let me ask you a question, let's say you have to pick between someone with whom you agree 9 out of 10 times, or somone with whom you agree 1 out of 10 times. Who should you choose? When you vote Republican only becuase you agree with a pro-life stance, you choose to vote for someone who you agree with 1 out of ten times instead of voting for a Democratic candidate that you can agree with 9 out of 10 times. Then you can stand along side other pro-life democrats and campaign for the issues that you care about.

2. If you respond that this 1 issue (abortion) is a moral issue, while the other nine issues are not, and therefore the 1 is more important than the 9, I must point out that your thinking is fundamentally flawed. They are all moral issues. Having an economic policy that takes care of the working class people and fairly distrubutes the cost of society is a moral issue as surley as anything else. Fighting to protect the rights and liberties garunteed under the constitution is a moral issue, pushing for the garuntee of quality education to every american citizen regardless of privildge is a moral issue, fighting to protect and take care of our senior citizens is a moral issue, and working towards the day when we promise health care to every american citizen is a moral issue. These are not just issues of policy, these are issues of compassion, of justice, of right and wrong. They all matter. So see point number one, since 10/10 are morally significant.

3. Let Kerry speak for himself. He gave the bets answer I've ever heard. I do not personally believe Abotion is the right, but I also am pro-choice. Why? Well listen to John Kerry's answer:

KERRY: I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead. "

And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth.
That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. When Dennis Kucinich was confronted by an anti-choice questioner

during his last campaign appearance in Minneapolis, he told her that pro-and anti-choice people should work together to make abortion rare, through such means as better sex education, access to contraception, and better support for women who decide to give birth and for children who are already born, so that no woman feels compelled to have an abortion for economic reasons.

[Stephanie]

52. First off, don't call them that. They are "anti-choice"

My preference is "no choice" - but whatever. Don't let them set the terminology.

[reprobate]

53. A recent thread here quoted the pope as instructing that:

A pro-life position also requires that they be against capital punishment and against war.

Otherwise thay are not pro-life, just anti-abortion.

[LoZoccolo]

56. "He's never gonna do anything about that!"

"He hasn't done anything about that in four years! He'd lose half his votes if he ever did anything about that!"

[JennC]

57. Another link about abortion increase under Bush

about 1/3 of the way down the page,

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display&issue=041013#5

[ComerPerro]

59. You got it already. The best thing to do

Is to explain to these idiots that Republicans haven't done anything about it yet, despite having all 3 branches of government.

[DURHAM D]

60. My suggestion - stop discussing "no choice" with them.

This is more than likely not their real reason for voting repug. It is just a smoke screen. It is the thing they throw into the conversation since it is based completely on their beliefs and you can't move them off that dime. They use it to hide ignorance.

Let them go. Stop engaging. Walk away.

If they are even half-way decent people they will start to think about their differences with you. They will eventually come to you. They will want to know how you think and where you get your information. Let them convert themselves. Worked with my family.

[dpbrown]

62. Here's how I look at it: Coercion vs. Empowerment

It's very frustrating talking with people who have chosen abortion as their single-issue.

I don't have the statistics at hand, but the overview is that Republicans try to attach the Democrats to some kind of love of abortion, since then they don't have to deal with the issue of abortion itself. The actual statistics related to the incidence of late-term abortions show that it is extremely rare, and even then is almost always done to protect the life of the mother. Republicans also discount the framework for regulation of abortion laid down by Roe v. Wade, since their position requires them to believe that Democrats all want women to run out and get late-term abortions. Roe v. Wade lays out a sliding scale allowing government to exert its influence in the pregnancy weighing the privacy interest of the mother in protecting her own body against the public interest of the government in protecting the fetus. In the first trimester, the woman's interest is strongest, in the middle trimester the government and the woman share the interest, and in the third trimester, the government has the greatest leeway to interfere in the woman's pregnancy.

Thus neither party, the Democrats or the Republicans, differs in accepting rational restrictions in the third trimester. Republicans seek to impose greater restrictions in the middle trimester, and generally seek to repeal Roe v. Wade, meaning each state government would have the right to restrict access to abortion with no regard to the privacy interest of the woman, all the way down to conception.

Republicans then focus on using rhetoric to develop the "personhood" of the fetus, and giving reference to feeling pain, all characteristics that are more pronounced in the latest stages of pregnancy, in order to confuse the issue, since what they are seeking is greater governmental interference at the earliest stages of pregnancy.

The Democrats wish for a decrease in the number of abortions, as do the Republicans.

The Republicans, however, use as their method coercion against women through legal means as a stick to keep women in line.

The Republicans disfavor access to birth control, funds for pre-natal care, sex education in school, and coverage of insurance costs for birth control. All these means are proven to lead to a decrease in the numbers of unwanted pregnancies, hence a corresponding decrease in the numbers of abortions.

Democrats favor the protection of the liberty and privacy interest of the citizen, in this case the pregnant woman, who can make the important decision about whether to keep or terminate a pregnancy in the first and second trimester in consultation with her doctor, spouse, or trusted friends and advisors, and without the overbroad hand of the government enslaving her uterus at the point of conception.

Democrats favor building a strong social compact with individuals in which they are educated to the perils of unprotected sex and the role of sex in caring relationships, have adequate birth control should they choose to purposefully engage in sexual behavior understanding the risks, have broad access to insurance and health care so that their pregnancy goes smoothly, have adequate job training and day care availability so that the pregnant individual can feel empowered to bring a new life into a world sure of their ability to care for that new life, availability of health insurance especially for young children so that the new parent can feel powerful to protect and nurture the new life they have ushered into the world, and a social safety net that will help that new parent to be sure that their new baby will be able to rise to his or her greatest potential without unnecessary obstacles being placed in the way.

Republicans favor coercion, and Democrats favor empowerment, as the best method to effect a decrease in the numbers of abortions.

The Democrats believe that women are equal in citizenship, equal in status, and equal in the ability to make decisions about their own bodies.

From that belief, then, comes the Democrats' protection of the female citizen from the imposition of anti-liberty laws upon her based on the status of whether her uterus is vacant or occupied.

Republicans want to enact, whether they tell themselves this or not, laws to change the liberty and citizenship status of a woman based on the status of her uterus. Once a woman's uterus is occupied, proposed Republican laws declare that she no longer has any right to privacy, liberty, or to make decisions about her own body - even if the occupation of her uterus threatens to kill her.

Republicans say they favor life, but the laws Republicans have offered on this topic mandate that abortions will be denied women even if carrying through the pregnancy will kill the woman.

In the Republican world then, it is better to bring a child into the world bearing the burden of having killed his or her mother, than it is to protect that mother's obligation to be there for her family, her husband, her children, and for her life.

The Democratic position of empowerment as a means to avoid abortions will always be more effective, more humane, and more protective of the liberty interests of both the fetus and the mother, than will the very narrow and coercive method by which Republicans would ban abortions and then do nothing about helping to ensure the protection and security of the pregnant mother, the newly born child, or the parent seeking insurance or a job after the birth of the child.

Abortion is just one of the hot-button issues that Republicans manipulate in order to get citizens victimized by the Republican economic plans, unfair tax cuts, environmental attacks, attacks on union worker rights, unfair labor practices, and pressure on the middle class with jobs being shipped overseas, to vote against their interests, keeping Republicans in office.

Democrats are the real pro-LIFE people, since they understand and seek to protect the full richness of life, not just keeping a woman's uterus enslaved.

Cheers,
Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Soopercali]

64. First, I tell them like most of the world...

My religious beliefs include reincarnation. I believe the soul doesn't enter the body until birth or shortly before, and I tell them I don't understand why their religious beliefs should take legal precedence over mine.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/ABriefLiberalCatholicDefense.htm

I also inform them early abortion was okay for the Catholic church for a long time because neither St. Augustine nor St. Thomas Aquinas considered a fetus a human until late in the pregnancy - because a soul was not yet present.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/cathwomen/abortiondecision.htm

I would also point out, like the late Gov. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania, that a pro-life movement cannot stop at the womb. Casey said pro-life voters should understand that a vote for him was also a vote for the social programs that would support a woman's choice to give birth - and the taxes to pay for them.

Many Catholic theologians say voting for Kerry on that basis is certainly morally defensible - and not a sin.