Islam being taught in public shools!

[Braunschweiger Bone]

This looks like a huge violation of separation of church and state. This school district will be receiving a not-so-pleasant letter from me and I would many others will join me. I don't want someone teaching my or anyone else's kid, in a public school no less, the Muslim Call To Prayer any more than I want someone teaching them the Catholic Rosary. I don't want them teaching the finer points of Ramadan any more than teaching them about Lent. This is pure BS

=========================

During the next few weeks, multicultural trainer Afeefa Syeed will bring third-, fourth- and fifth-grade students from a Muslim academy in Herndon, Va., to nearby public schools to share the practices and beliefs of their holiest month, Ramadan.

Syeed and the children will present the call to prayer in Arabic, display prayer rugs and offer tastes of dates. In countless other classrooms across the country, similar efforts will be made to educate students about the time of fasting and spiritual reflection for adherents of the world's second-largest religion...



http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/living/rel...

[Forkboy]

1. This should be fun!

[demnan]

2. Wait a minute before you go off the handle

Presenting how they pray is not necessarily coercing the students to join in. Perhaps the students will learn something useful about cultural diversity by learning of the religious practices of Islam or any other religion for that matter.

The more people understand the less they hate.

[BigMcLargehuge]

8. I agree

and it will also introduce them to the culture currently under the bombsights of the military, a people mentioned constantly in the news, and in many cases in the US, people who are actively descriminated against in a 9-11 backlash.

There is a big difference between being taught ABOUT religion and being taught religion.

[phylny]

51. I used to work in a school right near Herndon, VA

except in the neighboring county. My kids went to school and they learned about all different religions as part of social studies.

A Kindergarten class that I used to visit with a student had parents of many faiths come in and explain a particular holiday, their beliefs, and how their families would celebrate or worship. It was great, the kids loved it, and the majority of parents liked it.

Remember, a public school can teach about different religions as long as many religions are discussed in the curriculum. The high school chorus used to sing many different songs, some in Hebrew, some in Arabic, most in English from many different faiths. It would always bring tears to my eyes to see the 99.9% Christian students learning and singing something else. It's respectful, and none of my kids wants to convert to Islam - it just makes them understand more about the people we share a community with.

[Cleita]

13. I agree with you.

Teaching people about other cultures and religions is not proselytizing. This brings me up to the Pledge of Allegiance. Now that to me is like a Christian prayer and really does violate the separation of church and state.

[Rhoderick]

45. Dangerous Ground

I agree that it would be beneficial for American children to learn about Islam, and I also agree that learning about religion isn't a violation of the separation of church and state, but...

...think about what the religious Right will say about this. They'll tout this as proof that Christianity is in danger, and they'll take it to court hoping to be able to lead similar prayer groups in our public schools. If this gets a lot of press, I can guarantee you this will cause an uproar. This type of thing rallies the religious Right; it doesn't broaden their minds. At this point, with a neocon like Bush in the White House, I think this is very untimely.

To be on the safe side, this type of thing should not be held during school hours. If they wanted to hold a seminar in a public school on the weekend or after hours, that'd be great. The difference is that the children's parents can choose to attend as opposed to being forced to.

[BigMcLargehuge]

56. it's not a prayer group, it's part of the curriculum

there is a significant difference. Also, the call to prayer is not a prayer, it's the same as bell only using the human voice to make the announcement.

[thanks jon]

164. I agree with your point but

but it does quickly become a slippery slope. I took lots of Religions studies in University just for the fun of it(did a lot of that) but if you start teaching schoolkids the intracacies of the religion it will quicly become an equal time issue. How bout heading down to the Hopi reservation for a little mushroom party. Many religions and beleifs to be covered its not just the Christianity-muslim ju juor paradox. As a non-beleiver I get a little un comfortable since, being a non-beleiver isn't actually a religion.

[TrogL]

110. Think of what the neighbours might say

There's nothing wrong with a comparative religion class. If the fundies want their day in class they can go right ahead. They'll just have to stand in line with the rest of them. That's what pisses them off. They want to be the only voice heard.

Let them have their day in court. The discussion itself is valuable.

[Politicub]

114. Who gives a hoot about what the Christian right thinks?

As a gay man, they hate me anyway. I actually relish those things that make the religious right mad. Their angst is music to my ears.

I remember when I was in elementary school that we learned about Hanukkah and how it is celebrated. We played with the dreidel and learned about other parts of the holiday. Funny, that has stuck with me for all of these years and I feel like I'm better off for it.

I think these children will be enriched by learning about Islam. It's not like they are being indoctrinated to follow Allah or anyone else. Plus, they will understand there are real flesh and blood people who are good Muslims, and not just the extremist Muslims presented most of the time by the media.

Islam is a big part of the American conversation now. It makes sense to educate students about the beliefs, just as it makes sense to objectively present other world religions. I say this as an atheist, but I do the see value in trying to understand my fellow human beings and their beliefs.

[SemperEadem]

17. gaining an understanding of another culture is never a bad thing

in fact, more school systems should be about widening the understanding of people all over the globe, since we're all God's children. Knowledge never hurts--ignorance does.

I think it's a progressive idea that the school district is doing.. perhaps I'll send them a letter of support for having vision and guts.

[Bjornsdotter]

25. I agree...

....it's a cultural learning experience.

Knowledge of others and their customs disperses fear and ignorance.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:

[sr_pacifica]

37. It's called cultural awareness---duh! n/t

[Braunschweiger Bone]

58. So you would support a local Catholic school...

coming into a public school and "showing" them how they pray the Rosary?

[Bridget Burke]

70. Yes.

And there would be Catholic kids already in the classroom who could chime in.

Next question.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

86. Well then...

I'll make sure my kids never go to that school either. Maybe after your kids are taught the rosary, they can bring in a Fundy preacher to show them snake-handling.

no thanks, as far as I'm concerned.

[JHB]

87. That just might clear up a few misconceptions...

...since some brands of protestants seem to get "Jack Chick Weird" on the subject.

Explaining what a rosary is and the meaning of going through the beads saying the attendant prayers is not the same thing as someone "showing" them in the sense you imply.

(not to mention, watching someone else say the rosary is sooooooo boring....)

Likewise, explaining what a prayer rug is, why they face towards Mecca, and even clarifying in English what is being said is explanation, not recruitment.

[Bjornsdotter]

98. I'm an atheist...

....and both of my children attend a Catholic high school because it's far better than the local public schools.

Do they learn about the Catholic religion....you bet...is it going to corrupt their personal beliefs, no. BTW, my children are drawn to Buddhism....their choice and good for them.

Before this school they attended a private school where many friends were Jewish, Islamic and Christian....they have been asked by friends of different faiths to celebrate different religious holidays with them. I'm all for it....it's a learning experience, learned first hand from people who practice different faiths.

Never be afraid of learning something new...



Cheers,
Kim :toast:

[sandnsea]

106. Or an Indian Reservation

Coming into the local school displaying a religious ceremony. Yes. This is incredibly different than a teacher having students read the Bible every day, which is what used to happen. That's what keeping religion out of schools is meant to do, keep the teacher-led practice of religion out of schools or the endorsement of one particular religion out of schools. Not keeping the existance of religions and learning about them out of schools.

[MADem]

147. After the first four or five beads....

...the notes and spitballs would be flying. Talk about ensuring that no one would want to go NEAR that religion!!! Get down on your knees, grab a thing that looks sorta like a necklace, say a prayer for each bead, get up after a painfully boring and interminable duration, and have no feeling whatsoever in your lower legs and feet. SUCH FUN!

I suppose that's how the perverted older priests caught the fleet footed altar boys--numb their legs with the rosary so they can't run fast....

[Braunschweiger Bone]

177. Even an atheist

is offended by your obvious bigotry toward Catholics. Been reading any good Jack Chick tracts lately?

[Maestro]

104. I don't see the problem

help me out. :shrug: This is multi-cultural education and it allows the students to see the world through another's eyes; it is something of which we need more.

[cosmicvortex20]

168. Nope - its a slippery slope.

If you dont want christians, or devil worshipers, or any other cult in there, you cant allow this particular one.

Its all or nothing. Its the principle here.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

178. Agreed

n/t

[candy]

3. Surely this is a joke,right? n/t

[judge_smales]

4. This is a joke, right?

[54anickel]

5. Your link doesn't pull up the story your referencing. Without being

able to read the story, but only go by what you snipped, I don't see what the fuss is about. It's teaching about diversity, not making the rituals a part of everyday class time.

[bowens43]

6. A violation of church and state in what way?

It appears to be nothing more then learning about a very misunderstood culture , not an attempt to endorse Islam.

[ComerPerro]

7. Slight difference

Personally, I don't have a problem with this as long as all that happens is that they show kids what Islam is.

Consier it social sciences.

People need to learn about other cultures and traditions, especially one such as Islam, which many right wing idiots in this country are being brainwashed into believing is a relegion full of sinful, evil fanatics who are hell-bent on killing us.

Think about it. You don't need to teach kids what Lent or Christmas is because, face it, everyone knows. Even non-Christians. It is rammed down their throats every year.

Whats wrong with discussing Ramadan? Telling kids about customs is not teaching or endorsing religion.

There is a difference between taking a day to discuss cultural aspects of Islam and teaching Biblical creation as scientific fact.

A huge difference.

[MADem]

151. It also ensures

...that the mean kids will tease Achmed with cookies and soda at lunch hour for the entire month of Ramadan!

Personally, I think the "comparative religions" angle is fine, the problem is vetting the presenter. You're probably better off showing a film, so you don't have some nut disguised as a religious leader saying things like "You there, little jewboy, ya know yer goin' ta HELL if ya don't accept JEEESUS as your personal savior!! You too, ya little towel head! An' you in that there catholic cult are right behind 'em!" I can just see this kind of crap happening, and all it takes is ONCE to ruin the beneficial experience. Better to find a good video...you're just asking for trouble otherwise.

[Forkboy]

9. 0 for 8 so far Bone

[judge_smales]

10. Sniff, sniff

sure smells like troll.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

16. that was a very racist comment

[lurkerguy]

18. Oh teacher, teach me more please...

I thought there were muslims of every race, not sure where my "racist comment" was.

[bowens43]

28. You're right. It was a bigoted statement.

Either way , it tells us a lot about you.

[lurkerguy]

38. Negatory...

It was a truthful statement.

Prove me wrong.

The whole point is that their everyday lives and even speech is so intertwined with their religion that if you want to learn about their culture in public schools then you are asking to bring religion into public schools as well. So are we for or against?

[bowens43]

39. It was bigotry.

Period. No go play somewhere else.

[sangh0]

41. How can we prove you wrong when you know everything?

So how do you explain all the Muslims who live in my neighborhood who never say "God is Great" (in any language) and who smoke and drink?

[MADem]

152. Real Life Islam is very forgiving about that kind of stuff

The whole idea is that you must wage Jihad (not as weecowboy understands it, or as the crazy fundies understand it, but as it is taught). Jihad is STRUGGLE, more or less. You are supposed to try to be good, and struggle against temptation. If you screw up, well, you forgive yourself and carry on. The trying is as important as the success. The idea of praying 5x per day is supposed to keep the jihad fresh in your mind.

Very simplistic explanation on my part (there's more to it, of course) but that is the essential element that responds to your query.

Oh, and if you ever hear them say Allahu Akbar, that's God is Great--if you hear or see anyone praying, you hear that.

[Forkboy]

42. Was it really a truthful statement?

Do they really say all that before going to the store?

I'm just asking questions looking to gain knowledge.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Yes, children will be taught about Islam in the school.

Teaching somebody about a religion is not the same as proselytizing.

I'm for it.

[Sabriel]

156. I can't see the deleted message, but...

I'm assuming this post refers to fundie Christian sects, right? ...their everyday lives and even speech is (sic) so intertwined with their religion..." etc. Sounds like fundies to me.

[DrWeird]

43. That's true.

But convince me you didn't mean Arab muslims in particular.

[Forkboy]

21. Do they really say that?

Are you sure?

[SemperEadem]

23. what's wrong with saying "God is great"? Most christians believe that..

you got a problem with someone saying "God is great"? Why? Because it's Islam and not Christianity? typical ugly american.

[lurkerguy]

27. That was not my point

My point was if you invite them to teach their culture then religion is going to come with it. Is that what anyone here wants? Be honest.

[bowens43]

29. What was your point?

You don't have to tell us. We know.

[Bridget Burke]

32. Religion is often part of culture.

I'm sure that children who learn religion--or agnostic/atheist ethics--at home will not be damaged by learning about somebody else's religion.

Children raised without values of any sort might, indeed, become interested in Islam. They could do worse. Most Muslims aren't fanatics at all.

[SemperEadem]

47. their religion is a HUGE part of their culture

if our country didn't have a constitution, then it'd be like that over here... that's why our constitution is worded the way it is... because of the religious incestual relationship the church had with the crown and the horrible civil wars/wars of religion that erupted as a result of religious persecution in Europe.

teaching ABOUT a religion is not teaching religion. No one is talking about conducting conversion classes. Your point is non sequitur to the issue.

[sangh0]

52. like *OUR* religion is NOT a HUGE part of OUR culture?

I live in a neighborhood with many Muslims. Their religion is as much a part of their culture as our religions are a part of our culture. For some, Islam plays a little role in their culture. For others, it plays a large role.

Just as it is for Christians and Jews and athiests

[lurkerguy]

57. point taken...

However, in high school Spanish just as an example, I learned much about the Spanish culture in addition to the language. What I don't remember was learning anything about any religion in Spanish class.

[Bridget Burke]

59. Did you learn Spanish culture or Spanish-speaking culture?

Most of the Spanish speakers in the USA did not come from Spain.

And, yes, once again...this class will teach about religion. Only a few here find a problem with that.

[lurkerguy]

67. "this class will teach about religion"

Sorry, I thought we were against anything having to do with religion in public schools.

I give up; pass me the KoolAid.

On a serious note, I sincerely appologize for offending those with my previous comment. That was not the intent. The intent was to show just how intertwined thier culture is with religion and to ask if that should be taught in public school.

[Bridget Burke]

74. No, "we" aren't against anything having to do with religion ...

in public schools. The world has a rich variety of religious beliefs--and ethical systems that are not religious. Ignorance is the enemy.

Once again--teaching about a religion is not the same as proselytizing. You said you studied Spanish--did you ever study English? You appear to have some problems with comprehension.

[lurkerguy]

84. Once again, I said I learned about the Spanish culture which was what..

this discussion was about, Muslim culture. It was Spanish class and IN ADDITION I learned about the Spanish culture. But nothing about religion (guess I got ripped off). Yet it is necessary to intertwine the two in this instance for some reason. So what are we learning, the culture or the religion, or are they intertwined and inseparable?

[sangh0]

102. If you didn't learn about religion in that class

then you didn't learn about Spanish culture.

THEIR religion is VERY IMPORTANT in THEIR culture.

[Bridget Burke]

105. You can even learn about Islam in Spanish class...

The words olé, hola and ojalá are all derived from "Allah".

They are remainders of the Moorish occupation of Spain. In those days, there was considerable tolerance of Christianity and Judaism in the areas under Islamic rulers.

[lurkerguy]

111. dangit I got ripped off in high school

My parents were even teachers. All four of them that is; mother, father, step-mother and step-father. Unfortunately not at my school.

[sangh0]

116. Don't limit yourself!!

Your jr high and elementary schools didn't do such a hot job either.

:-)

[lurkerguy]

120. Ouch

That reminds me of the Caddy Shack line.

Judge Smails: "I am not too much of a slouch on the golf course either."

Chevy Chase: "Awe, don't underestimate yourself judge, your a huge slouch."

[sangh0]

122. It's "You're a huge slouch"

Damn them schools!!!

[0rganism]

107. So did you learn about Spanish Muslims in your Spanish class?

Did they teach you about the cultural influence of Islam in Spanish architecture (esp. Southern Spain) in your Spanish class?

[MADem]

153. If we are talking about Spain or Mexico

...most of the holidays, which you would learn about when learning about the culture of those countries, are RELIGIOUS holidays, SAINT'S DAYS, in fact. So, whether you were aware of it or not, you were getting a little dose of Catholicism in any discussion of culture. Same with the history--the royalty reported to the Holy Roman Empire...and then there's the Inquisition...! And let us not forget los moros (The Moors) and all of the Muslim architecture so prevalent still in southern Spain....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. Really?

You never sang Mexican Christmas carols or had pictures of Guatemalan Easter processions in your textbook?

I certainly did when I took Spanish in high school.

[lurkerguy]

78. The only song I remember was De Colores

There were other songs, but it has been over a decade now and that one is seared into the depths of my soul for some reason. I must have gotten ripped off at my high school.

[noiretextatique]

125. why are you so afraid of islam?

:scared: or is it islamists?

[sphincter]

169. Absolutely..

Especially thinking about how many times westerners use "God" and "Jesus" and "heaven" in daily speech. Even non-Christians use those expressions, so why so bad when a muslim does it?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. Bullshit! Islam is a major part of the world that the vast majority of us

know absolutely nothing about! Don't you think we need to know how our counterparts think if we're ever going to be able to deal with them?!?!? G'bye, jackass!

[Bridget Burke]

14. Your ignorance is showing.

(By the way, the link doesn't take us to that story. At attempt to search for it was stymied because I'm not registered.)

I'm quite sure the kids in your district have enough mainstream Protestantism crammed down their throats. No doubt they celebrate Christmas--I don't have a problem with that. (Of course, Islam venerates Jesus--AKA Issa--as the last Prophet before Mohammed.)

If you want your little darlings to retain their ignorance, I'm sure you can have them excluded from the lessons. Be sure they have some Jack Chick pamphlets to peruse in the downtime; I don't know if he's written much against Islam, but I'm sure you'll like all his Catholic-hating drivel.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

61. You are showing your ignorance.

I am not a Protestant (of which, by the way, there are nearly 30,000 varieties). I am an athiest. I don't want my kids or anyone else's in the public schools having lessons about religion-- Islam, Catholic, Protestant, ANYTHING.

[Forkboy]

63. You're reveling in yours

[JHB]

100. Then you're willfully ignorant

If you want such absolute control over what your kids are exposed to, homeschool. Public schools are for the PUBLIC, believers and non- both. This isn't about prostlyzation or ostracism, it's about education.


I might add that I am also speaking as an atheist.

[Bjornsdotter]

155. Well if that's the case...

...you'll also need to pull your kids out of history class....they won't be able to learn about the Pilgrims, the Crusades or even Hitler... as religion plays a roll in all of these topics.

Home schooling may be the answer for you.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:

[Cheswick2.0]

109. which protestantism are you talking about?

[John BigBootay]

15. Here's one for Bone...

Now that the Muslims are allowed to present "diversity" lessons in public schools, let's open it up for Catholic, Hasidic Jewish and Santaria lessons...

Schools shouldn't be teaching diversity. Who's diversity is it anyway?

[Bridget Burke]

20. Bone doesn't care for that Catholic stuff, either....

I don't see a problem with any of the subjects you mentioned. In fact, some of the students in the "regular" school can probably add to the lessons. Not all Muslim, Jewish or Catholic students attend private schools. Devotees of santeria are usually Catholics, as well; of course, they may be insufficiently white.

Besides, isn't your name pronounced "Big Bootie"?

[Braunschweiger Bone]

60. This is my whole point.... exactly...

No religion ought to be teaching about themselves in a public school--Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Taoism, whatever...

[noiretextatique]

128. which other subjects would you ban?

i'm not big on religion myself, but i think the study of it is a valid subject for even an elementary school curriculum. it's called education...it seems you are advocating a version of ignorance some fundmentalists want also. they tend to dislike sex education.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

132. The only thing that we shouldn't want taught in schools...

is religion. no ban on anything else. Relgion ought to be taught at home, or taught to oneself.

[noiretextatique]

145. teaching religion is a great way to create more atheists

imho. at home and in the church, i think it's a lot more difficult to think critically about religious dogma, if you know what i mean.
for that reason, i am a big advocate of teaching religion...not of indoctrination, but from a more critical perspective.

[kimchi]

19. Teaching children about Islam can only lead to tolerance.

Maybe the children will think twice when their parents talk about blowing up all the Muslims in the world.

I wish they would have a class on Paganism!

[bowens43]

35. We can't have none of that damn tolorence!!

You're either with us or against us!!!

[buckettgirl]

53. Goddess praise that!

I completely agree with children being taught cultural and religious diversity. This, in turn, teaches respect and tolerance.
I am the last person who wants religion forced upon anyone, even children. But I would want my children to be educated in all the world religions, and to know that there is more than one way to believe and more than one path to the same goal. I wish those things would have been taught to me when I was a child.
Blessed be!

[kimchi]

159. I loved history classes when the teacher talked about the people!

Not the Proclamations and the wars and which king married to consolidate his power.

I wanted to know what the people ate, where they slept, and even how they worshipped. Religion is an integral part of culture from Inanna of Sumer to the present, and history is flaccid without it. Education is not advocacy, as some here contend.

Welcome to DU, buckettgirl!
BB!

[Braunschweiger Bone]

76. How about a class on Fundamentalism?

Or Orthodox Catholicism?

How about a demonstration of a Fundy sermon and baptism service. Or how about a demonstration of Catholic Eucharistic adoration?

[JHB]

103. If this is the crux of your argument, you've been explaining poorly.

IF this is simply about demonstration of rites with no explanation, then you have some basis for argument. But an explanation of practices and the supposed meanings of them is quite reasonable.

Many atheists would welcome an opportunity to turn a critical eye on some of the really dopey practices of the world's religions.

[kimchi]

161. Sure! Bring it ALL out in the open-they can stand or fall on merit.

What is so threatening about learning how other people think? Because religion and the philosophy underlying it have a huge impact on a person's world view, you know. Goddess forbid one would have to make an effort to understand those of another culture.

Education is liberation. Pass it on.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. I don't have a problem with teaching _about_ religions in school

as long as there is equal time for all other religions that want a piece of the action. And atheists and anti-theists for that matter.

Of course, we'll eat up a lot of classroom time that way and also run the risk of some very hot tempers running over the whole situation.

Still if they can keep it fairly innocuous, like making flatbread or dreidels or some other hands-on cultural awareness activity I would be ok with it. I want my kids to know there are other ways of doing things in the world.

[Vickers]

24. Maybe Jesus will blow the school up

:shrug:

[PsychoDad]

26. this is good.

More americans need to be exposed to what Islam is, or is not.

There's pelenty of an anti-Islamic message and in some cases outright lies that exist out there in the media and online. It's good that the children get to see the real and human side of the second largest religion in the world.

Hopefully they will share the meaning of Judaism at Hannakah and perhaps expose the children to other cultures and beliefs in the same way throughout the year.

Hamdulilah!
Ramadan Mubarak!

[Solon]

30. When I was in Public High School...

During Social Studies, for a week straight we had different clergy come in for each of the major religions. This includes Hindu, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and then Jewish. I don't see what the big deal is, it part of educational and cultural development to teach about religions. Far different from presenting them as some objective truth on par with science.

[bicentennial_baby]

31. Sounds great to me

A greater understanding of, and then empathy for, people who follow the Islam can only lead to good things, imho.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Teaching about religion is not teaching religion.

From the snippet you provided, it seems some Muslim kids are going to introduce their culture to kids who ignorant of it.

Big deal. I'm an agnostic and have no more problem with kids learning about different religious beliefs than I do about them learning about different philosophies, countries, literature, history, you name it.

Methinks this post is McCarthyite attempt at making Islam the enemy by inference that learning about it is somehow dangerous.

[H2O Man]

34. I'm trying to think of the advantages

of keeping children ignorant .... maybe you could help?

[Forkboy]

36. Hey Bone...come back...we'll be nice!

Just because NO ONE agreed doesn't mean anything...really.

[ComerPerro]

40. Hit and run post

Dontcha love em?

[Forkboy]

46. Well,it makes the mods job easier

The intent of this post is pretty clear :)

[ComerPerro]

49. It seemed to me like

one of those posts that trolls come in to put up, so they can go back to wherever and say "look at those hypocites" and "they love Islam more than they love America".

[alittlelark]

50. More like a tag-team w/ "lurkerguy"

is my guess

[Forkboy]

54. lurkerguy would have been wise to keep lurking

:)

[Braunschweiger Bone]

62. I've been back... answering the flood of responses.

Just ask yourself this. How would you feel if a local Catholic school was gonna send a priest and some kids into a public school to "show them" how they pray the Rosary?

[Forkboy]

65. I'd say ok

next?

[Braunschweiger Bone]

73. And I'd say...

Fine. Go find a country that doesn't believe in separation of church and state. And make sure your religiously indoctrinated children from a public school don't come anywhere near mine.

[Forkboy]

75. so open minded

how progressive!

[DrWeird]

77. Wow, you know the word "indoctrinated"

So do you understand the difference between "indoctrination" and "education?" Because you seem to be getting them confused.

Obviously you're not thinking the instructor was trying to convert the children to Islam. Because lets face it, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think that.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

80. No I don't think that...

never said I did.

But please explain to me how demonstrating the Muslim "call to prayer" is somehow different than demonstrating the Catholic rosary, or a Fundamentalist snake-handling service?

If you can't explain the difference, then surely NONE of them belong in a public school.

[DrWeird]

85. Explain how any of it is indoctrinating.

nt

[Braunschweiger Bone]

89. Answer my question first.

n/t

[DrWeird]

93. I thought I did.

As an atheist and a firm believer in seperation of church and state, I don't have a problem with teaching children how and why muslims pray to Mecca, how and why catholics use rosaries, or how and why a some holyrollers play with snakes. Although the last one might not be academically relevant. (by the way, you're not comparing muslims with poisonous snakes, are you?)

Now explain how any of that is a form of conversion.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

97. sorry if I missed your answer earlier

It is not necessarily conversion, per se, obviously. But once you open that door of the public schools to any religious "education" or whatever you want to call it, you better beleive there will be willing extremists who will rush in and try to do all they can to actually get a few conversions.

[BigMcLargehuge]

88. the difference is easy

a muslim call to prayer is like a churchbell not like praying the rosary.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

92. Interesting distinction...

this could play a factor.

[BigMcLargehuge]

95. seriously, the call to prayer is just that

a call to prayer. It performs the same function as a church bell. That is its only significance.

[sphincter]

171. I don't think you have to worry about that..

I grew up in Sweden and religion is included in the studies. Not only one religion, but most major religion. We went out to churches, mosques, had visits from Hare Krishna and a bunch of other fun stuff.

I grew up to be an atheist, as did 100% of the kids I went to school with, but we ended up knowing a little bit about other cultures beliefs, and got a bit of an understanding about what floats their boat.

As someone said, teaching about religion is not the same as teaching religion, just as much as teaching about sex is quite far away from actually having sex...

[BigMcLargehuge]

71. if they were coming in to discuss why the rosary is important to them

I'd have no problem with it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. Not a problem as long as he didn't make them

actually pray the Rosary.

In fact, I might actively encourage it in a town dominated by the type of fundamentalist who goes around making ignorant statements such as "Catholics aren't Christians."

[PsychoDad]

82. Sure, why not.

It might be interesting. They could even discuss how they celebrate various holy days.

I'd be all for it as far as my kids are concerned. It's good for children to be exposed to, and learn about their neighbors.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

90. What about their Fundy neighbors?

Would you want them coming to the neighborhood school to demostrate snake-handling and a good ol' fashion revival service?

[PsychoDad]

99. In my neighborhood....

My kids (muslim) are readly exposed to Christian fundimentalism in the form of revivals, chic tracts at wal-mart, Vacation Bible School, etc, etc. Their Grandfather is a Southern Baptist minister and have gone with him to his church to listen to him preach on occasion. By way of family friends they have been exposed to Wicca, Thelema, Santaria, Mormonism, Catholicism, Athiests, and a few other -ism's.

Living in america, my kids are exposed everyday to a christian culture... Christmas is a big holiday, and while the local public school is out for Sundays and Christmas, there is no allowance for Friday Jumma or for the Eid holidays.

In spite of all this open mindedness and tolerance, and being exposed to Christanity, both of my daughters are still Muslim. And, I hope, much richer for the oppertunity to know more about others.

As for the extreme example of snake handeling, I belive the practice is illegal here in the state of Indiana. Not withstanding that, they have seen the practice on TV.

The point here is brought up again, The differance between learning about and participating. Sure, let my girls learn about Fundy Snake handelers as part of american religious culture, along with the Shea practice of cutting themselves on the anniversity of Ali's death. It's all part of the world they live in. As long as dangerous items, such as swords and snakes are not brought into the classroom, and they are not forced to participate.

BTW- Allah Akbar!

[Braunschweiger Bone]

101. And I too, have no problem with learning about these things

The more you know, the better off your are. My reservation is about these things being taught in a public school. I just don't see the reason for it, and it causes more trouble than it's worth. Stick to reading, writing, and arithmatic.

Thanks for the intelligent dialogue, PsychoDad. Somehow an gay atheist who opposes ANY religion being demonstrated in a public school is an idiot, or worse, suspected of somehow being a protestant freeper.

[Bridget Burke]

108. Then home school them.

I'm not a parent but I'd prefer my tax dollars go to giving the next generation a good education--in all areas.

By ensuring that you children are not exposed to any religious concepts at all, you are risking them being converted by the first bible-thumpers they run into. They will, eventually, have to live in the big, wide world.

[Cocoa]

44. God forbid your kid learns something

:eyes:

[BUSHOUT]

55. What a joke...

Learning about another culture is teaching a religion?

C-Ya.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

64. Islam is a RELIGION, not a culture

What are you talking about? Is Catholicism a culture? Should a priest come into a public school and "show them" how to make a good confession, or to recite the Nicene Creed?

For an athiest, this stinks no matter what religion it is.

[Bridget Burke]

79. Why do you hate Catholics?

I don't & I'd consider myself in the atheist/agnostic continuum.

What's an "athiest"?

[Braunschweiger Bone]

83. A misspelling.

I don't hate Catholics. My wife is a Catholic.

I'm just using it as an example. I've also used Fundies as an example elsewhere in this thread.

[Bridget Burke]

91. Your profile says "female" & you speak of your "wife"....

Really, are you in a position to preach intolerance? There are some who hate Lesbians.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

94. Uh, yeah...

put two and two together.

[DrWeird]

96. OK.

I'm pretty sure everybody pretty much already has.

So that begs the question...

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JCMach1]

165. You obviously don't understand Islam then

It is profoundly cultural...

[Braunschweiger Bone]

179. There are Muslims from many different cultures...

just as there are Christians from many different cultures. I suppose you think all Muslims are Arabs who live in the middle-east? Quit stereotyping.

[LSK]

66. are you a freeper troll?

49 posts??

[Bridget Burke]

81. Sniff, sniff.....

Flame bait thread....

[porphyrian]

68. Oh no! Now kids will have a strict moral structure!

Islam isn't evil. Fundamentalists who use Islam to justify their political actions are evil.

[0rganism]

112. Actually, I somewhat agree with you. (BTW -- link seems dead/broken)

You're catching shit for saying it, but I'm not going to be throwing any.

Learning about a religion, via critical reading of books or neutral documentary films, is one thing. Having someone come in to demonstrate the religion is another matter entirely, and should be very carefully scrutinized.

Does it promote understanding? Perhaps.

Does it pave the way for directly inserting religious practice into the curriculum? Probably.

Will it lead to fistfights at the schoolboard meetings? I wouldn't be surprised.

Public schools need to be really careful about this.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

134. Thanks, Organism

what has surprised me the most is that since this was Islam, so many people see it as "enlightening". But I guarentee you, if this was some orthodox Catholic demonstrating eucharistic adoration, or a fundy demonstrating speaking in tongues, everyone else here would be as leary as you and I. From an atheist perspective, they're all the same.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

113. does anyone here not think that if this thread title was ONE

word different (and you can guess the one) that his whole board would have gone into a tizzy over it?

theProdigal

[QC]

115. yep. n/t

[JHB]

117. Spell it out n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. well, that one would work, too

but since it is already taught (and in some cases actually demonstrated) I think you should try again! :-)

theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

119. aww you changed it...

it was better before...

theProdigal

[JHB]

121. I know, but...

...it was less likely to get you to say what you're implying -- something which I think is refuted by many posts above, but I'm not sure because I'm only guessing at what you mean.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

123. OK...HEY EVERYONE, I'M SPELLING IT OUT

C H R I S T I A N I T Y...

Hello...you can't even post the 10 Commandments without someone going apeshit on this board. Exposure to religion in a government funded entity is a violation of church and state according to some people here and this should set them off BIG TIME.

But, I did like your other post better ;-)

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

124. Posting the Ten Commandments is a clear violation of the first amendment.

If it's being taught in some sort of secular comparative religions class, like with this case, then it's not a problem.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

126. no different if it is a government funded school

the presentation of a religion in a goverment funded school is still a violation...no less than the posting of the 10 Commandements in a courthouse (whether you like it or not, the 10 Commandments WAS part of an early legal code...granted it was for the Israelites). Hell, no one is even forcing people to look at the 10 Commandments and yet students in a publicly funded school will be forced to listen to this by their teacher...

theProdigal

[sangh0]

129. That's not true

Religion can be presented in a public school so long as it's not done in a way that gives the appearance of the govt promoting or preferring any particular religion.

And the 10 Commandments can be posted in a courthouse, so long as the it is posted as part of a display on the roots of the law, and the display does not leave out the other religious traditions/documents/practices that our laws derive from.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

131. sangh ... i am just pointing out the hilarity of THIS argument

on THIS board. I agree with you on presenting religion in school...should be allowed as a part of something like a comparative religion class. But, people on this board go nuts over simpler things than this where religion is involved...

theProdigal

[sangh0]

142. whoops! Sorry bout that

I should read further upstream!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

143. it's cool

Lord knows we can't read EVERYTHING here and hope to get our lives outside of DU accomplished!

Carry on, my friend!
theProdigal

[DrWeird]

130. There's a clear difference between Moore and this case.

(using Moore as an example)

Do I really have to spell it out for you? Or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?

I'd feel the same way about the Five Pillars of Islam or the Four Noble Truths being posted as I would about the Ten Commandments if it were being posted exclusively over other religious iconography.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

133. i am being an advocate for the Evil One...

as usual on these sorts of threads. I just think if this had been about Christianity being taught in this fasion that people here would have gone nuts...like burning down the village nuts.

I think all of these things can and should be taught as a part of our childrens' lives so that they can see the wondrous diversity that our world can provide. No one over the other...

theProdigal

OnEdit: what the hell was that? can't type...

[DrWeird]

137. Oh, I don't know...

Maybe if they just read the title "Christianity is being taught in our schools!" some people might just read the title and then post, as unfortunately happens in any given topic, but I doubt the "christian bashers" as they're sometimes referred to have a problem with comparative religion studies.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

138. just given what we were given in the initial post

i think that a storm would have insued. I could be wrong...I have been before...I think when I was talking to you :-)

theProdigal

[JHB]

127. I think the original poster would be one of those going simiandung...

...and for me would depend on the circumstances. You have to admit the context is usually much different; not a program to provide information.

And thanks. I liked my other post better too, but even more I prefer action to words :evilgrin:

[Braunschweiger Bone]

140. Yes and no.

Yes, it would bother me if some Christian rituals were being demonstrated in a public school. But I'm truly surprised that since this is a different religion so many people think it's okay. I agree with ProdigalJunkMail-- I never expected to get this response here. You learn something every day I guess.

[Bridget Burke]

136. Yes, of course, all us DU'ers are Jesus-haters...

I'm sure there are fancy beaux-arts styled courthouses with the 10 Commandments in the ornamental frieze. Along with the Code of Hammurabi, the signing of the Magna Carta, etc. Nothing wrong with that.

The monument erected by Judge Moore had the Big 10 on a huge, ugly boulder posted at the courthouse entrance. It was the equivalent of being preached at by your teacher.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

141. yep...there are some admitted Jesus-haters here

The boulder, by the way wasn't, that big...but it was ugly. But believe me, there are plenty of people here who would have stopped reading at the end of the initial post, not bothering to go the original article from which it was snipped, and gone, as one astute poster put it, simiandung...

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

146. Hmmm

"here are plenty of people here who would have stopped reading at the end of the initial post"

If I may take my turn at Devil's Advocate, usually, at least in this country, when there's a story about "They're Teaching Christianity in the Schools!!" it's not a comparative religion class but an actual case of school-led prayer and prostelyization.

Besides, in this day an age anytime you see a post reading "they're teaching Islam to the children!" it's just begging to be further scrutinized, at least on this board.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

148. well, ok

but where is school led prayer occuring? I haven't seen any instances where a school official or teacher is leading prayer or prosel---oh however the hell you spell it...The closest thing I see is moments of silence, but I admit I am not paying the most attention to this...while I am not sure what to think of the creationists doing their thing...hell, I am one and that freaks me out a little bit.

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

149. Oh, it happens quite a bit.

Every now and then a DUer will discuss how their kids teacher inappropriately prositutamatizing and how they're upset about that. Then there's the whole ten commandments thing. Creationism. Pledge of Allegiance issue.

Perhaps this would be a good topic for a thread, after all this other crap settles down.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

150. we should probably wait til after the election on that one

might need another server to handle it ;-)

theProdigal

[MADem]

154. I think that happens

...because Christianity still dominates in the US. Give it time, every faith has people who just take it TOO FAR. In another ten or twenty years we'll have fundies from other faiths teaching in the schools and pulling this nonsense.

I suppose if parents interface with their kids regularly, they aren't going to end up "brainwashed" from a simple cultural lesson. But too many parents want teachers to do everything, from wiping their asses to teaching them manners. And they complain if the teacher doesn't do enough. Parental involvement would probably nip most of this crap in the bud, but that does not happen often enough. Everyone is working, everyone is tired and stressed. No time for the kids....

[Braunschweiger Bone]

135. I do.

Insert Catholicism, Fundamentalism. Entirely different thread at that point. What's so special about Islam. Religion is religion.

[ulysses]

162. that's a crock.

1. Christianity is inescapable in American society. The need to have it introduced as a part of understanding the world is much less.

2. Personally, I would have no problem with the presentation of Christianity in a balanced, educational context if I trusted those presenting to not proselytize. Same goes across the spectrum.

Cut the martyr act.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

173. nope...not a martyr act

read some of the posts in this subthread and you'll see where I am coming from.

theProdigal

[LibertyLover]

139. Teaching Islam in Schools

I'm a member of Americans United for Seperation of Church and State, so seperation issues are near and dear to my heart. If the program is carried out as indicated, I don't have a problem with it. Presenting information about your religion is not the same as forcing others to practice it with you. Personally, I think it's a Good Thing (tm) that elementary school children be introduced to other cultures and religions. It was always interesting to me when we'd do Social Studies in school and you got to know something about another country and culture, including their religious beliefs.

[anarchy1999]

144. Good Job everyone. An Unbelievable 138 posts on this incredibly inane

subject. Good job. We truly are our own worst enemy.

What is wrong with teaching about another religion and respecting it, for their customs and honoring it? Is this not what we in America are supposed to be about? Honoring all religions and faith. This election, this campaign, this turmoil the world is in, is nothing but totally insane!

To save myself an edit, I apologize now if I've offended anyone.

[Iris]

157. You're not offending me. The study of various religions is part of any

solid education. How can you learn about and understand the world if you don't know where people are coming from?

[Forkboy]

163. I told everyone it would be fun

:)

[ulysses]

160. it's called "education".

Education should deal in the real world. The real world involves the need to understand other cultures and religions than your own. As long as there's no effort to proselytize, I have no problem with it.

[Codeblue]

166. I'm Agnostic

and really despise most of the Western religions. They all seem so ludicrous to me. Islam included.

But in my History classes the most interesting part to me was learning about the origins of the religions and the main players involved in that religion, as well as it's central beliefs and how that particular religion does things.

Seeing this type of thing first hand would be a welcome experience in my book. But of course, I'm one of those people who wants to want as much as I can about everything.

[thanks jon]

167. hmmm There are plenty

of good Muslims. And plenty of Good Christians. And plenty of good
Agnostics. Are they good because they are Christian or muslim or Agnostic. Me thinks there is something else to it. What grade are we talking about here anyway.

[UAE]

170. its good to learn about islam! cuz it will show the different between

what you learn in school and what FOX or your media say about it


it will be interesting

[ronabop]

172. This is the *best* way to stop forced school prayer and indoctrination!

Once uptight fundy parents realize that basic education in Islam, Satanism, Christianity, (etc.,etc.) would be part of the school experience (equal time for all, of course!), forced prayers by their darling little christian child to Satan would be the feared next step....

Most fundies I know believe in school prayer, until I ask them if a Vouddoun (aka VooDoo) live chicken sacrifice, to the Rum and Tobacco SpiritSaint, led by one of the students, would be an acceptable way to start the schoolday for their child.

:evilgrin:

-Bop
P.S. "Satanism" is meant in the sense as practiced by LaVey. I am not confusing Satanism with other faiths, such as numerous faiths the christians describe as being "satanic" or forms of "witchcraft".

edit: spelling

[mandyky]

174. They are teaching ABOUT Islam not teaching Islam

First, it is Ramadan now, and that seems to be the topic. I wonder if the school also brought in Jewish kids during one of the recent Jewish holidays.

Your example of teaching the rosary wasn't correct from what I see - a better Catholic example would be bringing in Catholic kids during Lent and explaining that holiday and special goings on during the holidays.

This sounds like a one day culture sharing event rather than a "Teaching any Religion Course".

[Dem2theMax]

175. The more children are taught about different cultures, different countries

and different beliefs, the more open they will be to accepting all people as equals.
And somehow, THAT'S the 'problem' I'm feeling from your words.

I'm getting these images of hooded white robes.

Makes me think of anger and hatred.

And of people who DON'T want to see other people as 'equals' and they don't want their children to be taught to accept and tolerate people who may be different.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm........

[H2O Man]

176. This all started with Brown versus the Bored With Eduucation.....

I agree with the originator that if Strom Thurmon had won the general erection in 1952, the world wouldn't be subjected to schools teaching about these terrible subjects.

[Braunschweiger Bone]

180. Just imagine if this article said this:

During the next few weeks, Father Xavier Francis will bring third-, fourth- and fifth-grade students from a Catholic school in Herndon, Va., to nearby public schools to share the practices and beliefs of their holiest season, Lent to Easter.

Francis and the children will present the tridentine Mass in Latin, display crucifixes and offer plastic Rosary beads. In countless other classrooms across the country, similar efforts will be made to educate students about the time of fasting and spiritual reflection for adherents of the world's largest religion...

===========================================================

Would anyone feel differently?

[Bridget Burke]

181. No. Earlier, you claimed not to be anti-Catholic.

Yet, once again, you pick Catholicism as the most grotesque & bizarre belief system possible. You've claimed your wife is Catholic--is this a problem? How many children do you have? What ages?

Most people on this thread believe that teaching children about religion would not be a problem. Yet you persist.

[Skinner]

182. This person is a repeat disruptor.

They have been banned.