Christian DUers - Is Homosexuality A Sin?

[Zhade]

Some say yes, some say no. What say you to this queer atheist?

[joeybee12]

1. Who's the numbnuts who voted yes?????

I'm in a take-no-prisoners mood--if you think it's a sin, try and find a brain to use, because you sure as hell don't have one!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. is there any possibility that you could be wrong?

why is it that you have to be right? Why can it not be a sin? I mean, it's a 50-50 shot...either it is or it isn't and if you believe in God (at least the Judeo/Christian one) then it very well could be.

theProdigal

[rustydog]

9. Ok, ...If it is a sin, why is homosexuality not mentioned

In the 10 Commandments of Gawd Almighty?
In all of the testaments of the Apostles, those who tell the story and teachings of Jesus..Where are Jesus's words against Homosexuality.

Then here is the kicker:
Isn't this between the alleged sinner and his/her God?
Judge not lest you be judged? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...on and on blah blah blah...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. not mentioned in the 10...I'll give you that

and Jesus didn't mention it...but it is mentioned in other places in the bible and ALL of it is supposed to be the inspired word of God...take it or leave it.

For what it's worth...all people are sinners in my book. Not one of us is perfect...and from what I have been taught...sin is sin...regardless.

And I am not judging here. I am simply saying it may be, and if it is, then God is the judge.

theProdigal

[Ms. Toad]

26. Do you believe that all of the other sins mentioned are sins

Particularly those mentioned in the same list of prohibitions: Not eating shellfish, not having sex while a woman is having her period, and a whole host of other things, for example.

If you do not believe these similarly mentioned sins are sinful any longer, then how is one to read the bible and determine what is a sin and what is not?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. if Jesus didn't directly contradict it as part of the new covenant

then probably...yeah. But ya know...that is, once again, not for me to decide as I am not the arbiter of sin...that is purely a role for God. I think my standing with Him is pretty cool...so, it's all good. And you know, even if homosexual sex is a sin...well, then if I can be made right with my God, then so can any other sinner...not my job to judge. My job is to live and love others...period.

theProdigal

[Selwynn]

156. By understanding the root of sin ....

Sin has to do with the breakdown or harm of healthy relationships - to yourself, to others and to God. That why Jesus said that all of the laws and the prophets all rest on one basic underlying principle: love God with your whole heart and love others as you love yourself. Also expressed as do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you. Reading the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount is like an entire exposition on how exactly to know what one should and shouldn't do and also why it matters.

Life shouldn't be about carrying around a rule book and trying to make sure I follow ever letter of the law. Life should be about living in the spirit and having the spirit of the law - the underlying concern that Jesus said informed all the law and prophets - in my heart. Insofar as things I choose to do breakdown healthy relationships with my neighbor, or cause myself harm I believe these things are sinful - because for me, "sin" is really basically those actions we take which are anti-life/destructive to joyful living.

Understanding the principles expressed in the beatitudes, coupled with the outstanding instructions of relational living in the sermon on the mount, combined with the exhortations of Jesus which teach that the heart of Christian faith must be an attitude of compassion and service to fellow man, loving our neighbor as ourself, acting toward others as we would like them to act to use, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, tending to the sick -- this is the LENS by which I analyze the choices I make in my life and the LENS by which I make decisions as to what I should or shouldn't do, what would or wouldn't be sin.

Sin to me is anything we choose when we know that we ought to choose a better way. That's not that hard to determine when we're honest with ourselves and willing to really search out or motives and the quality of our behaviors.

"Sin" by the way is just language. It is religious language to represent an experiential truth: that there are things in life we know we ought not to do and things in life we know we ought to do.

[Terran]

10. What makes you think it's a 50-50 shot?

Personally, I think the odds that "god" is actually the Christian god of the Bible are about 10,000,000,000,000 to 1. I mean, it's a sin because of some ancient holy book that's been translated so many times it bears almost resemblance to the original? Yeah, right.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. yeah right...

notice I did clarify the belief requirement in a Judeo/Christian God as part of my statement on the 50-50...

theProdigal

[joeybee12]

16. Abso-phucking-lutely not! And here's why. I was raised a Catholic,

and was told it was a sin. Then I grew up and decided to think for myself. If you believe something is the way it is simply because you were told that, then the odds are you're wrong.

But if you start thinking, start learning, and delve deep, and you believe in something that way, odds are you're right.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. that is moral relativism at its finest...

whether we like it or not, there are rights and wrongs. I am not saying this is one; that is for God to decide.

I will assume from the tone of your post that you think that I am not a thinking, delving person. You would be wrong...I believe the way I do due to years of study and contemplation...so, I guess odds are (according to you) I am right...what about all the other people who have done the same thinking (time-wise) and invested themselves in a different belief structure...odds are they are right, too? I suppose by your logic they would have to be...but then again, moral relativism tells us we are all right...

theProdigal

[Zhade]

38. "I believe the way I do due to years of study and contemplation..."

Interesting - I'm NOT a Christian, and I realized I'm queer, "due to years of study and contemplation".

To clarify: I have been thrice-born (I tried it three times, with different flavors, before I realized how silly it all was to me that I 'needed' to literally believe an ancient book that had been translated and mistranslated thousands of times over the centuries in order to be a good person).

Clearly, there are concrete rights and wrongs - but then, your 'right' may indeed be quite wrong.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. cool by me...

I guess part of the problem a lot of Christians have (including myself at times) is that we need God to be good people. The fact is, we need God because we CANNOT be good people (at least according to the holiness of God). It is these that base their lives on the RULE of the bible rather than the relationship its study is designed to bring that are the self-righteous assholes on the planet. The ones who really get it...the ones who seek the relationship rather than the rule...they are the ones who realize their OWN standing and need and therefor do not judge others.

And you know, that book HAS been mistranslated over and over. And that gives strenght to most of my point here...who knows what the rules really are. One of my favorite clean jokes ends with the punchline , "And the old priest comes screaming up from his translating work..."It says CELEBRATE...CELEBRATE...not celibate..."

theProdigal

[Zhade]

46. HA! Nice punchline.

I feel sad to know people think they need a god to be a good person. I do fine without one.

But I respect your right to your beliefs, no matter how I feel about them. After all, they're yours, not mine.

Peace.

[stepnw1f]

189. Bingo

So now the Bible and it's interpretation is an excuse for bigotry. When will these folks stop making excuses for their own sins and just deal with it?

[Zhade]

35. Well, share your insight on this, then:

What happens to the "50-50 shot" hypothesis when someone is bisexual, like I am? Does this mean I am only half a sinner?

See how ludicrous it can quickly become?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. nope...you're still a full-on sinner :-)

But that is OK...we all are. The only person you have to worry about is you...if eveyone would accept this simple premise...the world would be a much happier place (the worry about yourself part). That way, what really IS and IS NOT sin wouldn't even matter.

theProdigal

[stepnw1f]

190. How Rude and Arrogant

Who are you to determine her as a full-on sinner? And don't use the Bible as a reason for your bigotry! Your accusations are personally based on interpretation of a 2000 year old book. Which means you CHOSE to believe it was a sin. Don't give people this shit about what is and what isn't as if it were fact based on objectivity. Come down from that cloud you so high and mightly judge from.

[Zhade]

192. Wow. Thanks for that!

I'm a guy, but other than that, spot on!

:D

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. i say, if you're an atheist

why do you care?

theProdigal

[Zhade]

40. I wanted to see how DUers felt.

With the anti-gay protest today, I wondered how many Christian DUers were truly progressive toward people like myself.

Thankfully, most actually practice what they preach, and recognize that Jesus did not codemn homosexuality.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. can you believe it is a sin and still be progressive?

seriously...what are your views on that? Is it ok is someone thinks it is a sin but leaves it to be judged by a higher authority and therefor doesn't make a statement on YOU? Is that ok?

theProdigal

[cushla_machree]

157. i do not think so

I don't think you can believe homosexually is a sin, and still be considered fully progressive. Maybe on some issues you can be progressive, but your clinging to something that is NOT progressive.

Conservative ideas tend to reflect an adherence to established norms and support for (or furtherance of) status quo interests, and believing homsexuality is a sin, would fall under that category IMO.

The thing is, sexual orientation is not a choice, no reputable medical association would make a claim as that. And if anyone believes that, they are not living in reality. Therefore you are stuck with the problem, why would god create homosexuality and then comdemn them? It makes no sense. And i think you can rectify that and still be a good christian. Because of this, i do not believe the bible is the literal word of god, if it were, it is not something i would want to follow. It just looks like whoever wrote the bible had a distaste for homosexuality.

And i don't think its ok to say i believe it to be a sin but a higher authority will judge you, not me. That is a cop out. And its condescending. Because it DOES make a statement. A rather mean one, and uncaring. What type of caring god would create homosexuals only to condemn them? A shitty one, and if thats the case christians who beleive in that god can shove up their you know what.

[Zhade]

174. Honestly? No. I can't. It's obvious to me that I was born this way.

God - if he exists - would not create me just to damn me. Most unprogressive of a god, methinks.

[The Straight Story]

185. Would it matter if Jesus did directly?

Because many see him as indirectly doing so in Revelation.

And it does not matter entirely if I think it is a sin based on my beliefs - it only matters with respect to me and how I live my life.

[Zhade]

193. "Because many see him as indirectly doing so in Revelation."

Actually, that was Paul, on a really bad trip.

[Orangepeel]

4. who cares?

I don't personally believe that homosexuality is a sin, but if I did, that would be my problem.

Some people believe that driving on Sunday or cutting their hair or eating shrimp is a sin. They're welcome to believe it, as long as they don't try to legislate it.

[Still_Notafraid]

5. you nailed it

[Nikia]

7. Let everyone follow their conscience on personal "sins"

Homosexuality does not hurt other people. If the homosexual is sinning, he or she is only hurting him or herself. It is best that people do not do things which they, themselves, think are evil or wrong. If you believe it is wrong to work on Saturday or Sunday, then you shouldn't. If you believe that it is wrong for you to have homosexual sex, the you shouldn't.
As I have come to know homosexual people with no heterosexual inclination whatsoever, I am convinced that for some people, homosexuality is not a choice. God made them that way. It is not a sin for them to be homosexual or have a homosexual relationship. I think that promiscuity is a sin although I suppose that is personal too. In my mind, allowing gay marriage encourages healthy long term relationships and discourages promiscuity.

[Kierkegaard]

6. Biblically, it is a sin, but so are dozens of other activities in modern

society. See how many of the seven deadly sins are actively practiced in today's world. How many commandments are routinely violated without repudiation? Pure hypocrisy...

If it's OK to be a greedy, lustful, lazy, fat-assed liar, it's OK to be gay.

[redwitch]

8. It's not OK

to be a greedy, lustful, lazy, fat-assed liar. But it is OK to be gay. :-)

[leesa]

12. Exactly. Why people choose to live according to outdated social

rules from over 2000 years ago is beyond me. Hello, idiots...it's a different world now and hopefully we have expanded our knowledge base a little!

[Kierkegaard]

25. According to the sizeable margin of people who actviely practice

all the nasty things I mentioned in my original post, it seems to have escaped their notice. The point as I wrote is from a Biblical perspective.

From a purely personal viewpoint, I have no knowledge of what it must be like to be gay, but I certainly advocate being true to one's self. Anything a person decides to do with their life is fine as long as it isn't infringing upon anyone else's rights. Moral or ethical judgements are between those persons and their God. Since I am not God, why should it concern me?

[kokomo]

18. I don't see anyone criticizing Mary for wearing a polyester/cotton blend

Wearing mixed threads was one of the many ridiculous "sins" mentioned in Leviticus. However, homosexuality never made God's "TOP TEN" list that he/she gave to Moses, nor did Jesus ever say a word about it!

In the NT, only St. Paul talked about homosexuality (related to prostitution) but then Paul was asexual, hated the idea of either men and women enjoying sex! Paul was as much a misogynist, keeping women subjugated and "in their place", as he was a homophobe. Paul plagiarized Mithraism and sold his ruse to the world. Christianity has been corrupt, a fraud from its beginnings.

[DemBones DemBones]

154. In a thread dealing with religious questions, it would be

helpful to clarify *which* Mary you mean. It was a shock to me to think that the Blessed Virgin Mary was wearing a polyester/cotton blend.

:shrug:

[Zhade]

41. From my years of bible study, I learned that Christ changed the paradigm.

The old rules no longer applied. They got in the way of loving God and loving others.

If his believers feel that Christ supercedes the OT, how can homosexuality remain a biblical sin?

[devinsgram]

11. If you are born that way how can it be a sin.

[leesa]

15. Because bigots of any religion who believe this think that God

is wrong and they are right. They think their God must be a bigot just like they are.

[Cerridwen]

13. This seems the right place for this - From "The West Wing"

From the episode "The Midterms"

link for this text: http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=7220 scroll down 'bout 1/2 way.



JACOBS: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

BARTLET: Yes it does. Leviticus!

JACOBS: 18:22.

BARTLET: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I wanted to sell my youngest daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21<:>7. She’s a Georgetown Sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

(Bartlet only waits a second for a response, then plunges on.)

BARTLET: While thinking about that, can I ask another? My chief of staff, Leo McGary, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Or is it okay to call the police?

(Bartlet barely pauses to take a breath.)

BARTLET: Here’s one that’s really important, because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11<:>7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

(The camera pushes in on the president.)

One last thing. While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building when the president stands, nobody sits.

(Jacobs sees that, in fact, the president is standing and she is the only one in the room sitting. After a moment, she rises, holding her tiny plate of appetizers. After the president exits, Sam Seaborn sternly approaches a thoroughly belittled Jacobs.)

SAM: I’m just … going to take that crab puff.

[queerart]

14. Does The Yes Votes Honestly Suprise Anyone?

Better Question: (being raised as a Lutheran Ministers Grandson)

Does Anyone Believe That God Directly Said Anything More Than The 10 Commandments... The Law Of God? If so... then what about of the books of the Bible that we know were left out? If not... Then the commandments are perfectly clear.... and very simple to understand. They have a running theme in all of them...... simply put, don't be an asshole in life!

[karlrschneider]

17. Jesus, the putative icon of Xianity bitched about a lot of things, but not

one word about homosexuality. I'm fucking sick of so many sanctimonious pricks who pontificate about it as they cheat on their wives. (or husbands.)

[deadparrot]

19. Nah, God's cool, in my mind.

IMHO, he's a lot more concerned with your actions towards others than with what you're doing in your bedroom.

[JohnKleeb]

51. I take it you're Catholic too

:), I agree with you 100%.
Right on, I think the allmighty is more concerned about how we act to others than who we fuck, I think St. Peter or who ever will accept a homosexual who is good to people rather than a heterosexual who is a bastard to everyone. BTW the same thing applies to faith as well.

[deadparrot]

52. Technically I'm Catholic...

although I'm not practicing right now. I'm in that phase of questioning my beliefs.

But I do believe in a higher power, and in my mind, God's a lot more fun than the fundies give him credit for.

[JohnKleeb]

69. I am non practing too mostly because my folks are agnostic

but I do pray. Yeah the fundies make god out to be an asshole, when in reality, I like to think of god as a let live kind of being. I consider myself Catholic but not Roman Catholic, strange eh but thats because my family isn't all Roman Catholic.

[deadparrot]

72. Yeah, I pray.

In fact, I've never prayed so hard as I have in these last few months.

The basic idea of religion is good, I believe, before you factor in all the hatred and pomp and circumstance.

[JohnKleeb]

76. I do too mostly during the school moment of silence

I agree religion is good but I think its bad when hatred comes in, and thats why I can't stand fundamalists.

[tuvor]

20. No.

A couple of things. If you're a Christian and you and your church believe it is a sin, then I hope your opinion's just as strong regarding divorce and that you and your church deal with divorcees in the same ways as with homosexuals. Make sure they don't marry (again), make sure they can't become clergymen, and so on.

Second, I hope you are clear that the sin of Sodom and Gommorah was inhospitality.

Finally, I'm reminded of this uncredited open letter:

Dear Mr. Falwell,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly stated it to be an abomination to the Lord. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws and how best to follow them:

A) When I burn a bull on the alter as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1: 9). The problem is my neighbors: they claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

B) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 2:17. In this day and age, what do you think a fair price for her would be?

C) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness. (Lev. 15:19-24) The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

D) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

E) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

F) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

G) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the alter of the Lord if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there some wiggle room here?

H) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean. May I still play football if I wear gloves?

J) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. (It looks like some sort of cotton/poly blend.) He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev 20:14.)

I know that you have studied these things extensively, so I'm confident that you can help. Thanks for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Sincerely,
Yours Truly

Cheers!

[tanyev]

21. I confess this is an issue I can't resolve satisfactorily.

On the one hand, the Bible is pretty clear that it is a sin but on the other hand most recent studies show that it is something you are born with, not a choice. So if God disapproves of it, why create people that feel that way?

I have concluded that it's really none of my business. If someone is gay, whether it is a sin or not is between them and whatever higher power they believe in (or don't believe in). And they certainly deserve all legal benefits that any other person has.

[cally]

27. Thank you for an honest response

I think most of modern society is a sin in some parts of the Bible. Almost none of us follow all the tenets and I don't believe Jesus taught us that.. Divorce is a sin, adultery is, eating some meals, etc. I think we all have to analyze, judge, and adapt to a new understanding. I think 'Christians' who preach against homosexuality are absurd. There's plenty in the bible to say women should not speak up and be less than. Yet Jesus reached out to the outcasts, including the outcast women, and I believe that is his true message. So no, emphatic no, homosexuality is not a sin. As Kerry said, "We are all God's Children."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. It's a normal variation of the human species

Jesus doesn't even mention it.

[arwalden]

30. If You Voted "Yes".... FUCK YOU!!

[cally]

32. Oh, I agree

I'm too tired to argue this shit one more time. I felt the same way when I saw we should give up choice for :wtf: I do think when we all win this election, we all need to go back to fighting these issues. And a big sigh, I thought we won...at least on the left.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. hey, allen...you know, Jesus knew what sin was

and yet he still hung out with those folks. I think God does see it as a sin (the Judeo/Christian flavor in whom I believe), but we are not here to judge.

So, Fuck Me? OK...I can take it. But you know what, while you MAY be a sinner (hell, there is no way you aren't according to Christian scripture) I KNOW I am one. I have more problems than you can shake a stick at. But I do find it funny how one sin is judged here on earth while a plethora of others are left 'unnoticed'.

Sorry, it pissed you off...
theProdigal

[ulysses]

54. and yet,

as Lydia points out, he never mentioned homosexuality. :think:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

56. He didn't seem too concerned with any type of

sin preventing Him from hangin' with someone. But I guess the point is, if GOD was cool to hang out with sinners of various sorts and be willing to die so that they could be in relationship with the Father, then why can't everyone?

theProdigal

[ulysses]

59. fair enough, but you're missing the point.

Jesus never said word one about homosexuality. Period. The question concerned whether or not it was a sin, not whether or not Jesus would have hung out with gay folks had he considered them in sin.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

61. well, I happen to believe that the entire bible is

the inspired word of God so that kind of puts a little kink in the point you are trying to make (at least for me...I certainly understand tha there are plenty of people who don't believe as I do).

theProdigal

[ulysses]

64. again, fair enough

I suppose. Personally, I decided that Paul was a nutcase well before I realized that I was agnostic, but that's me.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

68. he may have been...

personally...his salvation experience sounds a little like a stroke to me.

theProdigal

[cushla_machree]

160. i always said

to hell with paul. we aint practicing paulianity. WHo cares what he said about homsexuality. Jesus is the one we are concerned with.

But then, the bible is not where i find most vaules. the old testament kinda ruined it for me. Rules on selling your daughter to slavery, rules on what people you can take as slaves, God told Israel to fight and destroy the Canaanites and what we see is the merciless slaughter of the pagans again and again because God commanded that no man, woman, child, or beast be let live lest they be a thorn in Israel's side. And then people turn around and go, oh but we have the new testament that changed all that!

Still doesn't change the fact of what 'god' found to be acceptable prior. suddenly he changed his mind? Give me a break.
And the treatment of woman.

1 Timothy 2:11 states:
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Corinthians 14:34-35 states:
As in all Churches of the saints, the woman should be subordinate as even the law says...for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." This is the infalliable word of the lord? Oh ok, maybe i should just go to my dishes and shut up then. God told me to!

Then other things, Daniel states that governments are appointed by god and romans tells you to submit to your rulers. Pretty convenient for those in power, no? it has changed to much over time, on the whim of whoever held the pen or had the power .

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

180. While that may be true..many chapters have been left out for political

reasons and some included...including those letters Paul wrote which are not even QUOTING Jesus. Frankly, the Gospel of St Thomas was WRITTEN in Jesus' language and got excluded so while the bible MAY have been inspired by God...a great deal of politicking and ungodlike qualities went both into those scriptures which got included and with fewer and fewer publishers, LOADS of politics has gone into the interpretation of scripture into the common vernacular.

[arwalden]

I'm Tired Of Being Judged And Labeled By Stealth Bigots

and self-deprecating comments from some folks that acknowledge "being a sinner, too" do absolutely nothing to mitigate the sanctimonious judgment being thrust upon me (and my queer brothers and sisters.) Such transparent efforts do not mollify me. Many have tried, none have succeeded.

Labeling the very core of my sexuality as being a "sin" and lumping it in with all the other "sins" (of choice) is an affront. How many times can homosexuality be compared to bestiality, incest, rape, kleptomania, and pedophilia before enough decent people grow a pair and point it out for what it is?!

People who do such things under the guise of "love the sinner/hate the sin" and "I'm a sinner too" are beneath my contempt.

Pissed off? Sir, that is quite an understatement. Apparently my limited vocabulary renders me incapable of conveying my true feelings without becoming vulgar.

-- Allen

[ProdigalJunkMail]

66. you already got the vulgar part :-)

you think I am judging you? And even if I were, why is that such a problem?

And just for giggles, let's look look at my penchant for anger. You know, it is the core of my being...I love to go on a good anger jag and just get pissed about everything...hell, I could become violent. It feels as right to me as breathing. But I am told it is a sin and so I chose to fight it. But is my sin less than yours? Is my struggle less than yours (I know you're not struggling against it...you embrace it and that is cool by me)?

Allen, I am sorry people judge you. I know that I cannot help you there, though. But I did not label homosexuality a sin. According to my belief structure, the God that I worship did. You can be angry at me for believing in something...but then you just judge me for it...fine.

theProdigal

OnEdit : I take offense at your labeling me as a bigot when I do a better job of accepting you for who you are than you do of accepting me.

[arwalden]

73. People Have Used God And The Bible To Justify

all sorts of horrific things. This is no different.

It's still bigotry at it's very worst. It just makes me sick.

-- Allen

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. sorry...I am not the bigot here

[arwalden]

106. This Isn't About You...

Who called you a bigot? What I do see is you defending bigots and making excuses for them.

-- Allen

[ProdigalJunkMail]

140. sorry, I thought you were slamming me personally

because I believe in the same scriptures that the 'bigots' believe in. I am not making excuses for anyone...never have. I am stating how I believe Christ taught us to behave.

I am truly sorry that this is so painful...for all of us.

theProdigal

[arwalden]

162. Nonsense!

What has gone before is indeed, absolutely making excuses. Cherry-picking, (re-)interpreting and (hyper-)parsing the bible to find fault in others or to justify their own stealth bigotry, overt bigotry, or the bigotry of others, is precisely what's going on here.

This is nothing new. It's not at all hard to use select scriptures to justify slavery, wife-beating, murder, child abuse, genocide.

What sanctimonious hogwash when someone proclaims that they believe the bible, the whole bible, and nothing but the bible. Sadly, there can be no reasoning, no rational discussion with the folks who have the attitude of "God-said-it, I-believe-it, end-of-discussion."

Yet the folks with this mentality are often the ones who gasp in disbelief when they find out that the bible says disobedient and disrespectful children should be stoned. "We can't do that... that's just wrong. Things have changed," they think to themselves.

Still, these are the very ones who are so smug in their belief that it's okay to label and discriminate against queers "for the bible tells them so".

Wow! I cannot hide my bewilderment at how any intelligent or compassionate person would dare to compare homosexuality with primal anger and uncontrollable violent outbursts. (That's a new one, I'll have to add it to the list of other popular, but absurd, comparisons: incest, bestiality, pedophilia, anger and violence... gottit!)

Fortunately, there are many thoughtful and reasoned people who can see those types of comparisons for what they are.

I'm always amused at those who think that there is some moral high-ground to be taken when they make statements suggesting that gays and lesbians ought to be "tolerant" and "accepting" of the bigotry.

Surely these folks don't realize how idiotic it sounds when they try to compare the two things. If they could just hear themselves--"Oh, how *dare* you judge me for judging YOU?!"--it's astounding!

-- Allen

edit: missing word

[Misunderestimator]

199. I second 94414's post (below here) for this one.

I hadn't even read this last night, as I had been involved elsewhere on the thread below :eyes: :loveya: allen. Good post.

[Duncan Grant]

194. Have I told you lately how much I adore you?

Just finished reading this thread and realized that I haven't publicly acknowledged you as a real gift to this board in a very long time.

Also, thank you for capturing (so perfectly) my own thoughts and experiences. God love ya, arwalden! :D :loveya:

edit: forgot to mention that now there are 30 (count 'em, 30) people who have voted 'yes'...

[Cleita]

31. I personally think that no sex act is a sin if it's consensual

and between sexually mature people. However, if someone is victimized, then it's not a sin of sex, but a crime of assault. This incidentally can happen between heterosexual married people. If one forces his/her spouse into a sex act unwillingly, then I think it's a crime.

[cally]

36. That's just too sane

Too much of these debates are idiotic. Why we are even debating whether what two adults do. We have a war going on which may change all our chances for peace in the middle east. We have a deficit that probably will make it impossible for many of us to have health care and retirement. Most don't have health care, many don't have enough to eat, and we're worried about whether someone is gay or straight.

WE all have much bigger worries.

[kokomo]

127. Blame God for making dirty parts and hanging them on our bodies

A little soap and water and I will lick anyone anywhere! I'm a try-sexual! :headbang:

[phylny]

178. Well, I think a sex act between two people can be a sin if one or

both of them is married, even if both consented to it.

Just my two cents.

[Cleita]

183. You speak of adultery.

It is a sin, I would suppose, against the injured party. However, isn't the sin more one of a broken contract, the marriage contract, rather than a sin of lust? The way I took the original post was that we were speaking of unnatural lust. And by unnatural lust I am talking about those who label it that way.

[Zhade]

195. "The way I took the original post..."

Er, no. You really thought that?

I just meant, you know, being homosexual (or bisexual, in my case). Just the fact of homosexuality, not lust.

[Zhade]

34. Wow - 16 people think I'm a sinner. How...progressive.

Thankfully, I know they're wrong.

Bookmarking THIS thread, so I can remember who is intolerant of my very existence.

[vetwife]

37. That is between God and the person. I don't judge anyone

[vetwife]

44. If people are truly christians then they should leave all things to

be judged by the God they claim to worship. My sin if sin may not be someone else's sin. That is why God is God and will judge what we do and what we don't do. Glad I don't have to make any calls.

[terrya]

39. I TRULY don't understand homophobia. I'm a sinner, also, my friend.

I'm just like those judgemental types...except that, as a man, I'm attracted to other men. Period. And that's a sin...to be true to myself...to be able to love whom I wish. A sin...it's just sort of sad, in a way.

[LoZoccolo]

71. You mean you made this whole thread to divide DU or something?

That's cute - asking people a question in an effort to blacklist them or whatever.

The rest of us are trying to get work done here.

[Forkboy]

108. "The rest of us are trying to get work done here."

LOL...this from a guy who started a serious thread about Nader's penis :eyes:

[LoZoccolo]

150. It wasn't about Nader's penis.

It was about the penises of the people who vote for him. And it was just a theory.

[Forkboy]

151. oh,well that's soooo much better

:eyes:

[camero]

42. I honestly don't know how to vote

Because it's a prohibition in the same part of the Bible as working on the sabbath, having sex during a woman's period, and the like, I'm inclined to think that it might not be a sin per se, but something that would be considered unhealthy taken to excess.

But I'm certainly not going to say that people who engage in these activities don't have rights to be free from harrassment and want. Those are human rights. Even marriage is a human right. If two of the same sex want to get married, it's their right to.

I think leviticus would not be a listing of sins but suggestions to living a healthy life. I could be wrong though.

[SOS]

47. Since the question is directed to Christians

It is notable that Jesus never mentioned it.
Divorce, however, is clearly prohibited by Jesus as a sin (Matthew 6:31)
If these right-wing fundies are so determined to "defend marriage" why don't they demand that divorce be made illegal? Adultery could be made a federal Class A felony (25-life).
Now that's defending marriage!

[jonnyblitz]

49. wow....people who believe this crap are fucking SCARY.

i guess i better find an actual progressive website free of superstitious whackos.

[BlueJazz]

79. Really..Tell me about it. I was going to post a poll.....

...on whether there is truly an Easter Bunny or not but now I feel I would be ashamed at the YES responses.

[kokomo]

133. AlterNetters feel they are more progressive than DU, Xtian fundies there 2

That site has posters permanently banned from DU for supporting Nader and the Greens, but when it comes to religion, homosexuality, there is bias amongst many of the self-described progressives. These are not only right-wing wedge issues.

[JohnKleeb]

50. No

I agree with the post above that says god is more concerned about how you are to people than who you're fucking. :shrug: I know that contradicts the view of my church's head but what can I say, I am a Uniteran Universalist Catholic :D.

[Bluebear]

53. There are a bunch of "hate the sin, love the sinner" types here, too

:(

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. this causes a frown?

why? That is what Christians are commanded to do...

theProdigal

[Bluebear]

74. Whatever gets you through the night.

If I were Christian, and I really believed that, I would think "Nah, maybe I won't click yes on this poll" whether I believe it or not, but that's just me.

[kokomo]

141. That mantra is phony.....a ploy to disguise real hate.

A "good" Christian would never hate but many DO HATE homosexuals, so they cop out with the "love the sinner, but hate the sin".

Our sexuality is WHO WE ARE, our IDENTITY. If you were the opposite sex you would be a totally different person, wouldn't you?

So working backwards, hating the "sin" is really hating one's identity, in other words, hating the person!

If there is a judgement day (which as an atheist I could give a whit about) there is going to be some "splaining" to do by Christians who have hated in their hearts, then trying to twist logic, play semantic games, to convince an all-knowing god.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

142. actually nothing wrong with hating sin

I hate the sin that is a part of me. It is a part of me that I strive to do away with. But that is for me to be concerned with...no one else. If a homosexual person believes that to be a sin in their life, then they would handle it in their own way. If they do not believe it is a sin then they would not wish to reject it (as most don't).

Look, what it comes down to is this. Sin in something between you and your God, whomever or whatever that may be. How you handle it is also between you and your God. Why my opinion on it matters, I am not sure. All I know is that I am taught to not judge the person NOR the sin. I am not the judge...I have no rights there. I can believe that God sees something as a sin, but have no right to act on it...at all.

theProdigal

[OneBlueSky]

57. of course not . . .

it's simply one of the many variations inherent in the human condition . . . much like left-handedness . . . how can something God created be sinful? . . . ridiculous . . .

[ogradda]

58. not a sin

how can it be a sin? it does harm to no one.

[Nikia]

60. I have wondered why people concentrate on that sin

Even if homosexuality were a sin, why aren't people protesting people who engage in much more harmful sins like greed, treating the poor and weak badly, and senseless wars.
My husband worked at a movie theater and some people protested a movie with homosexual characters. I thought that was funny because many movies glorify promiscuous sex, crime, and all kinds of violence. Why do they protest against the homosexual movie and not those others if they are concerned about movies promoting sinful behavior.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. preach on!

why focus on one and leave all the others by the wayside? We are specifically told not to judge...why can't most Christians get that?

thePRodigal

[NightTrain]

62. I hope the "yes" votes all came from undercover freeps!

:scared:

[Cronus Protagonist]

65. It's that damn Gay Agenda we have to watch out for

http://cronus.com/agenda

Not for the faint-hearted.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

75. You're an abomination alright! Enjoy your stay!

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

84. It's not difficult. Very easy to see what you are.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

78. Sure you did.

You woke up one day and switched teams. Yeah,right.

[Bluebear]

81. And Jayzuz led them here to show us the error of our ways.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

88. What Christian language!

"According to the bible i am a sinner..there is no getting around it..if the bible isn't true then I am not..this thread was about how Cristians feel you sack of shit.."

[Copland]

92. I never said I was a Cristian

I said according to cristian laws I am a sinner That is what the thread is about.

[Bluebear]

95. Well then you better learn some DU etiquette

before calling other posters names. That is all.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

158. How very christian of you.

Like Jesus, Son of God, said: "I'm gonna kick yo ass."

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

96. By the way

Christian is spelled with an "h".

[Copland]

102. Is that what you do? Check spelling?

I will call you when someone give a shit.

[Copland]

83. No..I never switched..I was always like this

Wht the fuck do you know about me. What makes you an expert on my life.

[Swede]

86. Uh,you just said you "choose" to be homosexual.

Now you say you were always homosexual. Geez get your story straight.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

93. But you just said you were always like this.

How can you choose if you say you were always like this. On what day did you choose?

[Copland]

97. What are you doing? Playing word games?

I am a homosexual. And I have always been. I also choose it. What are you trying to prove with your petty inqusition? I replied to a thread and poll that asked about whether or not Homosexuals were sinners. It was asked to Critians. Although I am not a Cristian I know that a true Cristian would say yes. Because that is what the bible says.


WTF is wrong with you. Is everone here against Homosexuals?

[Misunderestimator]

104. It was asked to Christians, not to Cretins.... or Critians... or Cristians

:eyes:

[Copland]

113. That makes sense. Nice work.

You made a great argument.

[Misunderestimator]

114. Have a nice stay...

It's too bad you're such a self-hating pretend homosexual. It's highly insulting to us real ones. Buh-bye.

[Copland]

120. How do you figure?

Why do you say that?

[Cheswick2.0]

168. I am a "True" Christian, homosexuality is NOT a sin and your story is

suspect.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Copland]

103. Don't worry..there are other websites you can go to

[Forkboy]

110. LOL....don't worry,it's not me that will have to look.

:hi:

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

124. LMAO

you're not even a good troll.

Though I do appreciate you capitalizing "Bastard" for me! :crazy:

[Bluebear]

128. Trolldom is becoming a lost art

So unsubtle.

[Forkboy]

132. BTW...your penquin gif kills me everytime I see it

:)

[Bluebear]

137. Excellent :)

Glad it makes you smile!

[Bluebear]

105. I saw this coming when this 'poll' first went up

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

101. Geez,you're so adorable.

Confess,you must be one of those guys from Qweer Eye.

[Copland]

107. I love that show.

[queerart]

112. My Friend.......

Please try to make your point without foul language. I know it is hard, and things get heated..... But they will ban you, and it's better to smack others with logic, than vile speech. Please know that I am on your side my friend, but you must harness your thoughts.;-)

[Copland]

115. You are right.

I did lose my temper. They came at me like this was an inqusition. Sometimes I think that people of the democratic party claim to be on the same side as homosexuals only because it makes them look compassionate.

[queerart]

119. Indeed..........

I send along a Million Bear Hugs, & Kisses To You!

There.... that will really piss of the Haters;-)

[Copland]

121. And I to you!!

There are haters here. There are pretenders. I think I have exposed a few.

[Forkboy]

129. "There are pretenders. "

One in particular!

[Copland]

135. Yes..You! Now go away!!

[Forkboy]

139. Nah...I think I'll stay

you're too much fun!

[Cheswick2.0]

172. There are pretenders alright

[Bluebear]

125. Nice touch!

[queerart]

131. My Friend.......

You have jumped into a conversation that you were not invited too. I never spoke of you..... and have no energy, or want to spar with you. I'm guessing it's a slow day on the home front, but if you didn't notice.... take a gander at the vote tally.... and as much as it might suprise you... There Are Indeed Haters In Our Midst! Have A Great Afternoon!

[Bluebear]

138. Something tells me you jumped in without seeing the context

You are defending a disruptor. Sorry for jumping into the conversation "uninvited".

[queerart]

143. He Said In So Many Words He Was Wrong......

<<I did lose my temper. They came at me like this was an inqusition>>

Do we all feel so much angst against our fellow man that he can not be given a little slack? The fellow is new, and got carried away.... we all make mistakes in life my friend..... we all deserve the benifit of the doubt, until we no longer merit it. I also send a heart felt apology to you for being curt..... :-)

[Misunderestimator]

145. You need to read all his posts...

including the ones on other threads... then you might understand.

[queerart]

148. Fair Enough My Friend......

Point Well Taken, indeed:-)

[Swede]

123. You open homosexuals should stay at Freerepublic.

Leave DU to us god fearing,tabaccy chawin' morans.

[Misunderestimator]

126. "People of the democratic party" Bwaaahaaaahaaaa

Next you'll claim to belong to it.

[Misunderestimator]

98. WTF??? Why are you here pretending to be something you're not?

Really.... why? What a load of crap.

[Copland]

118. Do you know me?

I think not. Leave me alone.

[Misunderestimator]

122. Yes, seems I do know you....

You're someone pretending to be gay so that you can spew homophobic crap here. Leave US alone.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

136. What an incredible comeback...

Uh... no... I think YOU are.

And, by the way... it's really fascinating to meet a right-wing straight guy pretending to be gay... isn't that a bit embarrassing for you?

[arwalden]

163. Charming, Copland. Real nice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

170. DO people have to endorse Bush to get a tombstone anymore?

How much more obvious can someone get?

[Swede]

173. I thought he would be gone awhile ago too.

Must be giving him more rope.

[arwalden]

176. Someone Finally Took Him Off Of Life-Support. He's No Longer Here.

A moment of silence please.

-- Allen

[JohnKleeb]

70. Why did you just ask Christians?

You should have asked Muslims and Jews too because it ain't just our fundies who you see marching to "protect" marriage. Ain't mad but curious.

[Virginian]

77. WWJD

Wouldn't Christ be more concerned about those followers who hate their fellow man than those who love their fellow man?

[Forkboy]

80. Religion should be a sin

[arwalden]

90. LOL! That Makes No Sense At All...

but it sure is funny.

[vetwife]

91. It is..Woe to you Scribes Pharasees and hypocrites

Who took the stick to the church? It was Jesus and to the moneychangers.i understood the meaning. There is a difference in Faith and organized religion.

[Neshanic]

111. Christian married couples/Is divorce a sin? Hows' them apples?

I am not married, but since you are divorced, it's not my say. Or better yet, I am a "liberal guy" but you guys who are divorced, well, who is it for me to judge you, of course it is a sin nonetheless.

So you divorced "Christians", what's the deal?

It does not feel so good being called out, does it? Oh I don't mind you divorced "Christians", did Jesus hang out with many of them, being sinners and all.

Why is a free pass given to EVERYTHING else, other than being gay? Serial marriages, drunkeness, lewd behavior, being Bill O' Reilly, is OK, and you can just ignore and go on with, wink, wink, to the Lord. But gayness? Something you are born as?

[Forkboy]

130. "being Bill O' Reilly"

LMFAO :thumbsup:

[sangh0]

116. Most/all religions consider lust a sin

It's as true for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals and bisexuals. It's not the specific act, or who performs it, but why and the effects and consequences of the act that determines whether or not it's sinful.

There's nothing sinful about loving another person, no matter who they or you are. That's what Jesus advocated. What's sinful is when one uses love for selfish purposes.

[Coyote_Bandit]

153. I Simply Don't Think It Matters

Deleted. Posted in wrong spot.

[Zhade]

196. Not sure why you mentioned lust...

...the post was just about someone who is homosexual, not lust or sex acts or anything.

However, the rest I find myself in agreement with. A first!

[troubleinwinter]

144. Zhade, why would you see the neccessity of posting such a poll?

It serves no purpose here.

[Misunderestimator]

146. I completely agree.

[Bluebear]

147. Thank you.

[JohnKleeb]

149. Yeah I agree

Hey and I love your sigline, Young Bush and the Young Bundy, Creepy eh.

[Selwynn]

152. It doesn't matter at all if I believed is was a sin - as kerry said...

..about abortion, what may be an article of faith for me is not something I can legislate on free american people who may not share that article of faith.

Personally, no I do not believe that it is a sin anymore than I believe wearing garments with two different kinds of threads or planting the same crops in adjacent fields or touching the skin of a pig is a sin. All of those things were mentioned in the old testament as sins, and we just don't live in those days anymore.

By the way, eating shellfish is listed as an "abomination" in the old testament. Kind of makes you question how much weight to give to a passage in the OT that calls "laying with another man" an abomination...

[Coyote_Bandit]

155. I Simply Don't Think It Matters

whether or not somebody is gay or lesbian.

I think that Christians ought to focus on their own relationship with God (however they understand Him) and on their own attitudes and behavior. We are not to judge. Jesus certainly didn't seem to enjoy the company of the self-righteous. And as was pointed out earlier there are lots of very common things (e.g. gluttony) that can be considered sin. I believe there is also a passage of New Testament Scripture regarding the consumption of food that had been offered to idols that suggests that what may be acceptable conduct for one person may be sin for another.

Of course I also think that the gospel requires us to be socially responsible - you know, the old idea of being our brother's keeper. Something that certainly is not commonly understood in today's church.

[Mandate My Ass]

159. When Jesus prevented the stoning of the adulteress

which was not only legal, but a punishment everyone at the time believed to be commensuarate with the "crime" of adultery, he made pretty clear his feelings on sexuality and minding one's own fucking business when it came to someone else's.

[wyldwolf]

161. "yes" voters .... no real biblical reason

http://www.ncf.ca/ip/sigs/life/gay/religion/sin

Bishop John S Spong (Episcopal -- bishop, most published
member of the Episcopal house of bishops, author to 11 books and 50
published articles, phi beta kappa graduate of UNC Chapel Hill,
holds masters in divinity and an honorary doctorate in divinity
from Protestant Episcopal Theological Seminary, received honorary
doctorate in divinity from St Paul's College):

Some argue that since homosexual behaviour is "unnatural"
it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this
pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of
masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender
categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing
unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the
same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a
fuller state of being. Contemporary research is
uncovering new facts that are producing a rising
conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness,
sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural
and affirming form of human sexuality for some people.
Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in
the nature of a significant portion of people, and that
it is unchangeable.

Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our
understanding. But the God of creation speaks and
declares, "I have looked out on _everything_ I have made
and `behold it (is) very good'." (GEN 1:31). The word of
God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed,
and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued
by a prejudiced world.

There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The
first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted
to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the
real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men
to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was
to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female
role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves
Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual
demands of the mob. How many would say, "_This_ is the
word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally,
it might well be well for the one quoting to read the
text in its entirety.

Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual
behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the
word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the
same word used to describe a menstruating woman.
Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn
homosexuality (ROM 1:26-27 and 1 COR 6: 9-11). But
homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment
visited upon idolaters *by* God because of their
unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the
punishment.

In 1 COR 6: 9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not
inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the
immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves,
the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual
perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible
that the juxtaposition of _malakos_, the soft, effeminate
word, with _arsenokoitus_, or male prostitute, was meant
to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual
liaison.

Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of
homosexual behaviour. But was Paul's opinion about
homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack
of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by
prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of
Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer
this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic
attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was
not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be
veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been
challenged and transcended even by the church! Is
Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than
some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned
ideas?

Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy,
Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of
male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing
examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of
unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter
respectively).

That is all that Scripture has to say about
homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist,
these references do not build an ironclad case for
condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there
is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of
ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to
be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition
toward those of their own sex.

[Zhade]

197. OH MY GOD (irony intended) - I agree with Wyldwolf on something!

Well, it had to happen SOMETIME.

Now, if I can just get you to tell me your definition of 'far left'...

;)

[DemBones DemBones]

164. Do you know why homosexual sex is considered a sin? From the Biblical

point of view?

It's not because it's between two people of the same sex.

It's because it's between two people who are not married to each other.


And, yes, you can only marry someone of the opposite sex, so it is a Catch 22.


It is not your homosexual condition, or my heterosexual condition, that may make us sinners, but our sexual acts that may be sinful. So, if we're talking about the homosexual condition, that's not a sin, but homosexual sex acts are a sin, as explained above. Which did you mean by the word "homosexuality" in asking "Is Homosexuality a Sin?"

[Mandate My Ass]

167. It gives an all merciful god a real chuckle to set up a Catch-22

no-win situation for his children. Mmmmmm-hhmmmmmmmm.

[DemBones DemBones]

181. Maybe. Maybe God is all merciful and

loves all His/Her children. Maybe human diversity is a test to see if we can all love one another.

Better hope S/He grades on the curve.

[Mandate My Ass]

184. And the judgmental ones

will be the ones on the learning curve, no doubt.

[DemBones DemBones]

186. Probably. But we're all judgemental about something, aren't we?

:kick:

[Mandate My Ass]

188. Speak for yourself

M'kay?

[DemBones DemBones]

191. I was speaking for myself. . . But I feel you have judged me,

with insufficient evidence. Which is too bad.

Peace be with you. O8)

[Mandate My Ass]

200. That's not a nice feeling is it?

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Peace to you too.O8)

[Zhade]

198. "And, yes, you can only marry someone of the opposite sex..."

I'm kinda fuzzy, but is there actually some place in the bible that specifies marriage cannot be between two people of the same sex?

Just asking, because I honestly don't recall any such passages.

[Beware the Beast Man]

165. Sex without love-lust- is a sin

Doesn't matter who it's with. If you love someone, then that's what really matters.

[truhavoc]

166. Easy to decide, if it is not a choice....it is not a sin!

Just makes sense!

[WoodrowFan]

169. FLAME BAIT!

OYE!


I refuse to vote.................

[yella_dawg]

171. Dumbass Pagan here...

and I'm not really up on the Xtian creation myths, but if homosexuality is a sin, doesn't that make your god a fuckup?

I mean, it's been shown, I think pretty conclusively, that sexuality is based on your physiology, ie, the way you wuz made.

Just wonderin'

[quaker bill]

175. Voting for Republicans is a sin.

Abusive relationships are sinful. Nearly all of the most abusive relationships I have seen were heterosexual. In the spirit of letting "those without sin cast the first stone", heterosexuals have alot of work to do before they start to criticize.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phylny]

179. It's about as bizarre as someone making blanket statements

about Christians.

Just an observation.

[Bo]

182. Did the Christ figure actually say it was a sin?

From his own lips? Or was it Paul who wrote that it was?

[stavka]

187. Old Testement? Probably - New Testement Irrelevant...

Jesus Christ had asked all to love everybody and wash away the old Covenant.

For Christians - the rantings of one, 200 years before the coming of the messiah should mean nothing compared to the voice of God in carnate in the Christ.