Am I tho only one who has noticed that death & religion go hand in hand?

[SoCalDem]

It just struck me as I was watching the carnage today in Iraq..

For religious people who tout themselves and their faiths as "loving" and giving, there's sure been a whole lot of killing from as far back as I can remember..

It seems to me that religion is the modern day version of tribalism.. Anything that "we" personally do not believe in , is automatically suspect and EVIL.. That's what bothers me so much about *.. It's the absolutism..

Cave people probably did not have real religion, but they instinctively knew "us" and "them"..

Religion seems to be the "new and inproved version" of that tactic..

Before the religious here get their panties in a wad, I am NOT "attacking" anyone's religious beliefs... just musing about how so much carnage is committed in the name of "<insert your deity here...>"...


My fondest wish for the planet would be for humans to FINALLY see each other as PEOPLE first, and to NEVER EVER even KNOW who or what the individuals worship..

It's such a stupid waste...:(

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. Maybe religion is how people deal with death?

just a thought

[mitchum]

12. Yep. It's a cosmology which exists in order to deal with the fear of ...

death

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. ...and other thingy-ma-bobbies...

[SoCalDem]

2. Shit.. the new bug won't let me edit my typo.. THE not THO

:(

[jagguy]

3. one of the reasons for seperation of church and state

leave the God fearing to the church and leave the killin to the guvmint !

[radwriter0555]

4. ALL the wars are about gods, oil and real estate. Nothing else

matters anymore, it seems.

[SoCalDem]

6. I know.. Isn't it sickening??

I have friends that I have known for TWENTY years, and I could not tewll you WHAT religion they are.. I just plain don't CARE.. WHY do "some" people care so much?? What makes them so determined to convert others to their faith, or segregate themselves from others who do not share their beliefs..??


Deep down, we all need the same things:

shelter
food
water
education for our kids
jobs
security..


everything else is GRAVY.. why kill each other because we all do not think alike :(. I just don't get it :(

[AntiCoup2K4]

41. While that statement is technically correct.....

It's actually the oil, underneath the real estate, which is the "god" that the Bush Fraudministration is concerned with, regardless of their false claims of "Christianity".

[LittleApple81]

5. People need religion, a force higher than themselves...

to justify their existence and convince themselves that there is an afterlife.

I was raised as a Catholic in South America(the best way to insure you WON'T BE A CATHOLIC AS A THINKING ADULT!) I don't believe in any man-made religion. How could God justify talking to only a few "trusted" members of the kingdom he created... ergo the gods these "trusted" men force other people to believe in do not exist.

We do not need a God to behave like caring, concerned, elements of nature. Our brains should allow us to do this without "help" from above.

So many wars and tragedies would be avoided if people did not feel the need for gods...

[SoCalDem]

8. I was slapped by a priest once when I would not quit asking him

"Why would god doom aboriginal people to hell, because they had not been converted"?..

I asked him three times and he ignored me each time.. on the fourth time he accused me of being blasphemous and gave me a tap on the cheek..

made me do penance too :(

[LittleApple81]

11. They would not want you to question them, of course!

They want to control your entire life... at a price too.

For example, Colombia (my sad, sad native country) was (and, as far as I know still is) a "Catholic" country (written in the constitution). Up to a few years ago, you could not get a divorce, but you could legally separate as long as you never remarried. The only way to cut your marriage links was to get an anullment. Well, Colombia is a poor country, but because of the Catholic religion's dominance, an anullment cost 5 to 10 thousand dollars. The same process in the USA, through the same Catholic church (according to them it is the only one Catholic, Apostholic, and Roman...) cost 500 dollars.

All man-made religions are full of it. But in the process, they have killed, maimed, tortured and enslaved people.

Some individual members of different churches are good, caring humans but it is not BECAUSE of the religion... it is DESPITE the religion.

[arwalden]

32. And Why Would A God Allow That Monument Be Removed?

I have to wonder what those fundamentalists are thinking to themselves now? How could their all powerful and all knowing god allow this to happen?

Apparently... according to Moore and his followers, GOD WANTS THAT MONUMENT to remain right where it is.

He does? Oh really? --- How nice of him to tell you.

What? Did he change his mind? LOOK! It's gone!

-- Allen

[Aidoneus]

7. religion is just a form of politics

but your point stands.

[DemExpat]

9. No, SoCalDem, you're not alone.....

I've agonized over this for as long as I can remember....

It seems to me that wars are increasingly based on religious differences - and seems so hopeless at times!

I refrained from giving my kids a religious upbringing for this reason, because every religion I know (except for Unitarians and perhaps Buddhism) claims the "truth" and everybody else as the 'blind', 'ignorant,' or worse, the 'damned'.
I wish, like John Lennon, that an imagined world existed without religion.
With a humanist ideal instead of religions the world need not be without values, love, and respect!

DemEx

[Bandit]

10. Someone earlier noted Christian religion uses

two dead sticks with a corpes nailed to them for their symbol to their male God as compared to the female figure aspect of the tree of life of ancient past. Yes, religion and death go hand in hand.

[bloom]

15. that is an interesting observation

I could never relate to the idea of someone dying to save me and the hymns that go on and on about "washed in the blood of the lamb and all that".

I was raised Presbyterian. I now attend a liberal Quaker meeting - though I could just as easily call myself a Buddhist (or nothing in particular - I believe what I believe).

[leftofthedial]

13. Uh oh! Duck and cover!

The admins are undoubtedly already buried in religious tattle tale emails, each containing the word "offensive" at least five times.

Saying "religion" and "death" in the same post. Tsk tsk.

Is that worse than saying "religion" and "fairy tale" in the same post? If not, why?

And to answer your question, no, you're not alone. They do go hand in hand.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. A day without hatred of religion

Is like a day without sunshine. It's so entertaining to see so many "progressives" with so much hate.

[SoCalDem]

17. No one said a WORD about "hatred" of religion

Your skin's a bit thin if that's what you saw.. It's the RELATIONSHIP between death, suffering, and misery AND religion ALL RELIGION, not "yours" or "his" or "hers" that was the issue here..

The churches around here have no problem attracting members, and I say MORE POWER TO 'EM,.....BUT everywhere "religion" exists, death and the other "bad stuff" resides right next to it..


It's the "my god can kick YOUR god's ass" attitude of organized religion that is so dangerous..

[Terwilliger]

25. yes you did

SoCal: some people cannot believe unless the possibility that they're wrong has been eliminated...if they think there's a chance that god does not exist, they can't handle it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Well, that's easy at least

I don't think there is such a possibility. Of course God exists. You can choose to believe it or not.

[Terwilliger]

31. that's what I figured

[SoCalDem]

27. I realize that, but why can't people just leave OTHER people alone

The fact that a devout catholic or jew or hindu, or sikh, or moslem truly believes his/her faith "should" not have a deadly effect on people who do not believe as they do..

I guess it's the "should" that gets me.. If I have faith in "my" beliefs, why should it even register that others have different faiths?? It should be a GIVEN, that all people do not worship the same deity..

Why should one group NEED to dominate/obliterate another group??

I guess I just don't understand the whole killing thing.. I have had grievous wrong done to me in my lifetime, and yet, I never wished anyone dead for their wrongs done to me..

Maybe I am a chump, but I get very sad to see the wasted lives and unnecessary evils done to people in the name of "......"...:(

[knight_of_the_star]

42. That doesn't work

Death and suffering are not really all that big as far as Wicca and paganism in general are concerned. We don't make a big deal out of it or base big things on that. Does that mean that we aren't religions?

[redeye]

43. No...

...it means that polytheistic religions are less likely to be death cults than monotheistic religions (less likely because Hinduism endorses castes and widow-burning).

[knight_of_the_star]

51. RE: No...

Are you saying a religion whose one law says, "An it harm none, do as thou wilt" has a possibility of becoming a death cult? Maybe I should have been clearer on my previous post, I meant neo-pagans, the non-mainstream people like me.

[redeye]

55. No

I'm saying that a smaller percentage of polytheistic religions are death cults than of monotheistic religions. Wiccanism is one polytheistic religion that's not a death cult; Hinduism, by contrast, is one polytheistic religion that is.

[JNelson6563]

22. show me the hate

show it to me. Or be quiet.

Julie

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Actually

This whole thread oozes hate. As for shutting up, feel free yourself, I don't work for you.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. People use differences as reasons to kill each other.

If religion disappeared overnight, people would use some other difference as an excuse. And there are some positives about religion, though they are seldom discussed at DU. I've read the rules, though, and it's really not supposed to be Disbelievers Underground. O8)

[karlschneider]

28. I disagree. "My god is better than your god" gyrates the hormones of

gullible people way more than "my dad can beat yours up" because the belief accrues to more base instincts than a schoolyard dustup. But one of many ironies of course is this: why would a true devotee of a particular cult even -want- to "convert" the "heathens"? Wouldn't it be simpler, more convenient and far more comfortable to spend eternity with those who already agree with you 100%?

I might consider embracing a religion that could guarantee a non-stop orgasm until the end of time, but so far none have managed that as a come-on. (ooo, a pun. Of sorts. :D :-))

[Az]

19. Actually there are religions that do not focus on death

Taoism for example attempts to deal with how one lives. It is mostly eastern beliefs that focus on the here and now rather than the here after.

[greekspeak]

20. Ironic...I am taught my first religion class this week..Death & Dying

[Donna Zen]

21. Holly Near

I ain't afraid of your Yahweh
I ain't afraid of your Allah
I ain't afraid of your Jesus
I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God

I ain't afraid of your churches
I ain't afraid of your temples
I ain't afraid of your praying
I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your God


Rise up to your higher power
Free up from fear, it will devour you
Watch out for the ego of the hour
The ones who say they know it
Are the ones who will impose it on you

[soleft]

24. Check Out the History of God by Karen Armstrong

She does a really great job of analyzing humanity's need for religion, how it can positively enchance and benefit a society, and all the historical examples of where it has led to violence and destruction.

It's kind of like electricity. It can light a room, keep you warm, help you see better, enhance your life. It can also kill you. (ask Archae)

[TahitiNut]

29. "Father always liked you best."

It seems to be a primal fear. Where there's fear, there's someone who will use it to gain power and wealth. Where there isn't fear, there's someone who'll try to create it. :shrug: Sad.

[SoCalDem]

30. Hey Tahiti.. I get to go to Moorea for 9 days in Oct

Free trip ..me & hubby.. Moorea Intercontinental :) woo hoo

got the passport app sent in today.. fingers crossed that I will survive 7.5 hrs on a plane :(

[TahitiNut]

34. Oh! Can I come, too?

If you love 85 deg blue ocean, snorkeling or scuba diving, lazing in the sun, trekking around a small (about 30 miles around, I think) island, hiking into a tall waterfall with a cool blue lagoon at the bottom (great for swimming!), seeing polynesian ruins, and meeting some of the most wonderful island people on the planet, I think you'll love it. The beaches are all public beaches, so tops are optional. I used to boat/swim out to a motu and go au naturel in solitude. (Just to keep the visual pollution down, you see.) Get an overwater bungalow if you can. The fish are worth watching, IMHO. (They love scrambled eggs.) Oh, and the parasailing is awesome!

Yup. It's 7 hours from LAX to PPT (Faaa Airport) and 30 minutes on a puddle-jumper to MOZ (Moorea). Then it's a 16 mile ride to your hotel and you'll be going past Cook's Bay and Opanohi Bay (where the Bounty actually anchored) -- which are just outrageously beautiful.
It's survivable. :silly:

Words to the wise: Don't turn on the TV (I never had one there.) Get out and about the island. The waterfall is on the east side of the island and is about a 45 minute hike each way from where you park. Wear a pareo and sandals and you should be "dressy" enuf. (In three trips, I never wore anything but shorts/swimsuit and t-shirt, sometimes a pareo, and sandals.)

[Forkboy]

33. death goes hand in hand with everything

[redeye]

35. Right...

...millions ahve been slaughtered in the name of deities - the two Rebellions in Judea against the Romans, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Thirty Years' War. Communism has killed more, but the idea of people sacrificing themselves to the whole and to the eventual communist utopia shares the murderous, anti-intellectual characteristics of religion eevn if metaphysically it is not theistic. Nazism has killed even more than communism, but many historians argue that Nazism is a natural development of Protestnatism in Germany, and as a bonus, the Catholic church never excommunicated Hitler.

"Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist thinks that heaven is something for which we should work for now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, subdue and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

"Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to 'know' a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.

"He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are our brothers' keepers in that we are, first, keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."

~ Madalyn Murray O'Hair

[Terwilliger]

37. HALLELUJAH!

and Madalyn Murray O'Hair was killed for what she believed.

[redeye]

39. Yep

And she'd have been lucky to receive a tenth of the coverage of, say, MLK, in whose case the killer at least had the decency not to kill his family.

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Killed? I thought she split town with millions of atheist dollars.

Did they ever actually find a body, or is she still "in exile".

And if she did indeed scam her followers, would that make her a corrupt anti-evangelist? :evilgrin:

[Terwilliger]

46. you seem to have the answers

why dont you tell us?

[kengineer]

36. Communism has been called a religion... and people died...

In the Soviet Union and China, this century, Communism has killed nearly 100 million.

I've heard that many of the people in those places, who actively supported it, considered Communism to be like a religion... which is why it was justified to cut-up, shoot, starve, or otherwise exterminate the non-believers...

Ken

[Terwilliger]

38. some people consider the two-party system to be a religion

and pray to false idols

By the by...who the fuck ever said the Communists were justified in killing anyone?

[redeye]

40. I think that Martin implied this once...

...when he talked about the "long run" and about how he had no problems with dictatorships of the proletariat and about how justified Stalin was.


And no, the Republicratic party (it's a one-party, not a two-party system) is not a religion, even though American patriotism, like religion, is a death cult.

[Terwilliger]

47. It's not?

Have you read some of the things the Republicrats have said about their party? It's almost an obsession with some.

[Terwilliger]

48. Martin who???

Schreader?

[redeye]

52. Yeah, I think he said that

Look for my second Capitalism vs. Socialism thread in the GD archives in DU 1 (IIRC they're in archive #3) - if he said that, then he said that in that monster of a thread.

[Terwilliger]

57. I dont think Martin would say that Stalin was justified

at least...I sure hope not

[redeye]

62. I don't think he said that outright...

...but IIRC he did say somethign in support of that, something to the tone of justifying the impoverishment, killing, and destruction in the name of the Five Year Plans.

[AntiCoup2K4]

50. Of course they weren't justified

That's not the point. The point is that people can and have been killed in the "name of atheism" just as they have in the "name of God". Both are wrong. One is not more than the other.

But the murderous record of Josef Stalin doesn't represent non-believers any more than the Inquisition represents true Christians.

[redeye]

54. Not at all

Very few of those Stalin killed were killed over atheism and religion. Most were killed because they were plain anti-communist, or remnants of Tsarist Russia, or rich, or dissidents inside the Communist Party. Very few of Stalin's 33 million and Mao's 20 million deaths were related to religion.

[dudeness]

59. stalin once said

"that the death of one person was tragic, the death of a million a mere "statistic"".the great terror was not driven by religous fanatacism as you correctly point out..

[Terwilliger]

56. what the fuck do you mean the Inquisition doesn't represent true Christian

they thought they were morally justified in doing the heinous things they were doing because of some irrational belief pumped into them by their parents

The people who went around killing under under communism didn't think they were doing things for some sky fairy. They didn't believe the dictatorship of the proletariat was served by killing people.

The Christians DID! And MOREOVER...they STILL do...there are millions of sick, twisted idiots in this country who think George Bush is Christ-like and on a holy crusade to rid the world of terrorism. Your simplistic notions cause this crap. There is no god...stop the charlatains from leading believers down the garden path.

[Blue_Chill]

45. 1st let me say that cat pic is great! lol!

2nd let me say religion and death is misleading.

Humans + Greed + Ambition + Pride = Death
With or without religion. In fact most conflict "caused" by religious fueds often are started by purposes having nothing to do with religion.

Not saying that religion never causes it's own problems but it's largely exagerated. Anything that differs one human from the next is motive. Black vs White, Catholic vs Protestant, Communist vs Capitalist, Nation vs Nation, Tribe vs Tribe, Political stance vs Political stance.

[SoCalDem]

49. I agree to a point, but

it's the war and killing that I object to.. and the fact that if every party fervently believes that god is on HIS side, it's just so bad for everyone..

And the ones who seem to want to fight don't care a bit about the collateral damage they cause..

The youngsters who are watching this carnage, generation after generation, just keep it going.. Every faith seems to develop a martyr complex to a degree and instead of trying to put the past ...in the past, they insist on "celebrating the differences" and perpetuating the violence..

:(.. I guess there is not real answer.. humans are just violent :(

[Blue_Chill]

53. You have a point

But you are looking at the small picture. If you step back you will see that we humans find any reason to kill eachother.

Hell now a days on the streets of the US you look at someone and they may shoot you for 'disrespecting them'. Amazing that we haven't wiped eachother out by now.

[Terwilliger]

58. human religious types have more reason to kill

because they think the sky fairy gave them some sort of moral authority

but, hey, nice way to try justifying the deaths caused by the Christians

[Blue_Chill]

60. Ok then

Biggest killers
1- Stalin
2- Mao
3- Hitler

Which one of those was a deeply religious man while in power?

Men kill eachother for any and all reasons. Religion causes no more and no less then other reasons, such as national interest, conquest, greed, etc etc

[redeye]

61. Hitler was pretty religious, in a way

According to William Shirer, Nazism is a historical extension of several figuers in German history, including but not limited to Martin Luther.

And another question:

How many of Stalin and Mao's 53 million victims were killed for religious reasons, as opposed to, say, having been part fo the ancien régime?

[Blue_Chill]

63. You are seeing that which you want to see

Nazism was not a religion it was nationalism in its worst form.

How many of Stalin and Mao's 53 million victims were killed for religious reasons, as opposed to, say, having been part fo the ancien régime?

None. Political reasons dominated these two men as well. It was all done to cement their control.

[redeye]

64. Excuse me?

I'm citing a respected historian on Nazism. A lot of Hitler's rhetoric, mind you, was religious and spoke critically of atheist materialism, of atheist communism, even of the atheist-supporting Catholic Center party.