The Religious Right is spewing lies about Separation of Church and State..

[mumon]

Here's a little nugget from Alan Keyes, published on the "Focus on the Family" website:

http://www.family.org/cforum/fnif/commentary/a0027492.cfm

When, by their careless and contradictory abuse of the 14th Amendment, the federal judges and justices arrogate to themselves the power, which, by the First and 10th Amendments the Constitution reserves to the states, they deprive the nation of this prudent and logically balanced approach to the issue of religious establishment.

Whether through carelessness or an artful effort to deceive, they ignore the distinction between the individual right to free exercise of religion and the right of the people to decide their government's religious stance.

They have in consequence usurped this right of the people, substituting for the republican approach adopted by the Constitution an oligarchic approach that reserves to a handful of unelected individuals the power to impose on the entire nation a uniform stance on religion at every level of government.

The right to decide the issue of establishment is a fundamental right of the people. It is also among the most likely to cause bitter and passionate dissension when the religious conscience of the people is violated or suppressed. That may explain why it is the very first right secured from federal violation in the Bill of Rights. When they take this right from the people, the federal judges and justices depart from the republican form of government. They impose, in religious matters, an oligarchic ("rule by the few") regime upon the states. They therefore violate, in letter and spirit, Article IV, section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. This section declares that "the United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government."



IOW, Keyes believes, despite the wealth of settled case law on the issue, that states can establish their own religion.

Furthermore, he believes that they already have.

Here's how big a liar he is:

http://alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/Constitution/1901/CA-245534.htm

SECTION 3

Religious freedom.
That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles


(Constitution of the State of Alabama.)

Roy Moore has claimed he as an "obligation" to "acknowledge God" as stated in the State Constitution.

But does he?

HA!


PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama


SECTION 1

Equality and rights of men.
That all men are equally free and independent; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
...

Clearly not...here is the definition of the word "invoke":

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/i/i0218500.html

1.To call on (a higher power) for assistance, support, or inspiration: "Stretching out her hands she had the air of a Greek woman who invoked a deity" (Ford Madox Ford).

2. To appeal to or cite in support or justification.

3. To call for earnestly; solicit: invoked the help of a passing motorist.

4. To summon with incantations; conjure.

5. To resort to; use or apply: "Shamelessly, he invokes coincidence to achieve ironic effect" (Newsweek).
Computer Science To activate or start (a program, for example)

Let's assume he means meaning 1.: I say, "So what? Section 3 forbids religious tests."

Liars, liars, liars.

[Beacho]

1. Well

What else is new? I've been tangling horns with these boneheads and their dumb ass arguments for years now.


Hell, there should easily be a squad of posters here that could blast those arguments in their sleep. This is due mostly to the arguments never changing and repeatedly presented, usually with no changes.

Looks like another standard ass whoppin' needs to commence.

[edward]

5. How did a man(Jesus) become the enemy of truth?

Did Jesus really teach religious conformity? Seems not to be the case.
Christians should read the Bible.

[Iluvleiberman]

8. Yes he did!

He says everyone must follow him.

[Beacho]

2. Well

What else is new? I've been tangling horns with these boneheads and their dumb ass arguments for years now.


Hell, there should easily be a squad of posters here that could blast those arguments in their sleep. This is due mostly to the arguments never changing and repeatedly presented, usually with no changes.

Looks like another standard ass whoppin' needs to commence.

[DrWeird]

3. Alan Keyes is a creationist.

And thus ignorant, brain-dead opinions should be expected of him.

[gratuitous]

4. Keyes and Moore are both delusional

The easiest refutation of this whole nonsensical "controversy" is to ask Keyes, Moore a simple question: What portion of your taxes should go toward direct support and establishment of Satanism, Wicca, Buddhism, Judaism or any other religion you can name as the state's official religion?

When they clam up in embarrassment, or say that their tax money should absolutely not go to support Wiccans, tell them that you don't want your tax money going to support whatever sect they propose to establish as the state's religion.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. This is the Taliban argument

The Reconstructionists want to institute a religious law similar to the Islamic sharia or the Jewish halacka, only based on their bizarre form of Fundamentalist Christianity. Only a few Muslim countries - like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan - have had this kind of goverment. Israel has never let their fundamentalists go this far.

Fortunately, almost no one agrees with them, and as soon as they make too much noise, they are quickly denounced by most Americans.

[nannygoat]

7. Here's a great article

Faith in a Wise Constitution
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0828-09.htm

[Iluvleiberman]

9. Look a bunch of old rich white Christians did found this country

No imput from women, blacks, poor folks, Native Americans, ect.

So the fundies love that. They want to go back to that.

Is our country based on the 10 Commandments? Yes.

Only because of bunch of male fundies were in charge.

[mumon]

10. 'Except it wasn't quite true overall

Tom Paine was an atheist.

Jefferson was a Deist- so was Washington apparently.

Essentially this whole "Christian" heritage thing is a diversion of attention from the REAL values this country was founded on: genocide, land theft, slavery, tobacco & rum.

[HawkerHurricane]

18. for 150 years

Fundie preachers cursed the Constitution as a 'Godless Document' that should be revoked. Then they learned: Blame the 'enemies' for making trying to make it 'Godless' when it 'never was Godless'. Change the terms of the arguement, win the arguement.
Never let the other side set the terms of the debate.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

20. The 10 Commandments, Magna Carta, Code of Hammurabi

and lots of other things influenced our Constitution.

Our Founding Fathers were Deists-they firmly upheld the separation of Church and State:

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm
http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

[bloom]

11. This could be a problem for the democratic party

If Democrats are seen as the ones opposing "the 10 Commandments". I'm afraid there are a large number of Democrats that are sympathetic to this. Especially those in rural areas that don't experience diversity.

Not that I think that that is a reason for politicans or judges to cave into the Religious Right... I just worry about it.

[mumon]

12. It's designed for that, to be sure.

But hey, it's about time someone said the truth: Our nation was founded - in some cases by criminals (Georgia on my mind!) - on the values of tobacco, slavery, rum, genocide and land theft.

So why pollute the 10 C's with that kind of heritage?

[GAspnes]

don't forget the other guys

people fleeing the law (criminals), religious fanatics, anti-social misanthropes, the dissatisfied, unhappy and the desperate. No wonder European countries seem more sane than the U.S. They exported entire defective sections of their gene pool.

/tongue in cheek

[GAspnes]

21. don't forget the other guys

people fleeing the law (criminals), religious fanatics, anti-social misanthropes, the dissatisfied, unhappy and the desperate. No wonder European countries seem more sane than the U.S. They exported entire defective sections of their gene pool.

/tongue in cheek

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Alan Keyes is no liar

Actually, he's one of the few honest Republicans left, which is why the party establishment can't stand him. Granted, some of Keyes' ideas border on the fringe of horror movie conservatism, but at least you know that he means exactly what he says. Given a choice between Keyes and the BCE/PNAC crowd in the White House, I'd actually prefer Keyes, because at least you know exactly where he stands. You won't find him trying to snow the swing voters with faked "compassionate conservatism".

And he's not afraid to dive into the mosh pit :evilgrin:

So while his interpretation of the First Ammendment may be 180 degrees different from yours, and possibly different from how it has been judicially interpreted historically, that doesn't make him a liar. A lunatic perhaps, but an honest one.

[donco6]

14. The merging of church and state would mean my death.

As a gay man, I'd be one of the first to go. So I should be forced to pay for my own execution at the hands of these thugs? No thanks.



>>nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles<<

[BeFree]

15. Just say NO to state religion

Who wants the state to be involved in religion? They can hardly handle what's on the plate now.

I also doubt that any of the Churches want the government looking over their shoulders. The state needs to stay out of churches and churches need to stay out of government.

I am a Jesussian <new word> and I sure don't want or need the gawd-damn government making sure my seat buckle is clicked before I start to pray. (Just a wild example, fer sure, but it could happen if these hypo-fundacrits get their feet in the doors)

[bloom]

16. Re-Reading some of the writings of Jefferson and company

makes me wish we had more politicians who were openly non-Christians.

Or at least more who didn't make an issue of their religion.

[Q]

17. In another time and place...

...they called it brainwashing or 're-education'. Facts and truth have nothing to do with it.

- This nation was created by those fleeing the very type of religious oppression the fake christians want to bring back from the bloody past.

- It seems our nation is on the verge of THEOCRACY because too few Americans read the Bible OR the Constitution.

[Mari333]

19. Heres some of their arguments

1. But it says in God We Trust on dollar bills
2. But you have to swear on the bible in court
3. It says Creator in the Dec of Independence
These are all bullshit, and have been debated and thrown out easily..no one has to swear on the bible in court, legally, In God We Trust was thrown onto the money in the 50s, and it doesnt say which god (or goddess), and creator can mean anything from Zeus to an Alien from deep space Nine..

I.E. their arguments never hold merit. These theocrats are dangerous mofos tho.