So, when the CBS documents were proven to be faked...

[DarkPhenyx]

...all the RW gibbering heads and pundits crowed about how the bloggers, particularly FreeRepublic, got it all right almost immediately. Kinda wonder if they are going to do the same with DU now that the NBC weapon claims have been proven to be horseshit, which we predicted months ofer the start of the invasion/occupation.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, it's too much to ask them to actually have any integrity.

[Brotherjohn]

1. Um, to my knowledge, they weren't ever "proven" to be faked.

(the National Guard records, that is)

Yet (ironically) we KNOW, unequivocally, the Niger-uranium docs were forgeries.

[tom_paine]

2. Correct. It is a testament to the Power of Bushevik Pravda

Just WAIT until Bushevik Thornburgh gives us his "fehrundbalanzed Investigation".

From a propaganda viewpoint, at least, Hitler's Boys had nothing on the Busheviks.

[w4rma]

10. Yup. Even some DUers repeat the propaganda as if it were true.

example: DarkPhenyx

[DarkPhenyx]

18. and some wouldn't believe they were fake...

...if they had their noses rubbed in it. sadly true.

[July]

20. That can't be overstated.

I'm still pissed that the media allows them to keep spewing stuff like:

Saddam attacked us on 9/11.

Whitewater was a scandal.

The Clinton team trashed the White House.

Gore is a serial liar.

Kerry's (Gore's/McCain's/Clark's/Cleland's) service was nothing special; Chimp's was "honorable."

Etc.

[TexasSissy]

23. Yes. It's still under independent investigation.

[TankLV]

70. Ya got THAT right - they were never proven to be "faked".

I haven't seen or heard a single explaination for that claim.

That is simply a repuke talking point.

[InfoMinister]

3. There's Also That Document Released By The Whitehouse

that has the same font and everything as those "forged" documents.

[Mistress Quickly]

8. The White House

got that document from CBS right before the story aired.

[DarkPhenyx]

4. And of course...

....everyone will decide to ignore the rest of the post.

Ah, well.

[w4rma]

12. Don't include it next time, then.

Imho, it is best to never ever write so much that you include something contriversial and unrelated to your topic which might send folks off on a tangent.

Keep it simple and focused.

[DarkPhenyx]

15. It was important to the point I was making.

pointing out the hypocrasy involved. Kinda hard to make a point when you can't include it, no? :eyes:

[FredScuttle]

31. It's hard to make a point

when you include an outright fallacy in the opening line. You tend to lose most thinking people that way.

[nofurylike]

14. humbly suggest might have written "even IF" were fake,... n/t

[troubleinwinter]

5. They were NOT "proven to be faked"!!!!

[DarkPhenyx]

9. OK, whatever.

and we have no proof that there are no NBC weapons in Syria which used to belong to Saddam.

[Bandit]

13. Explain how they were proved to be forgeries please....

As far as I've ever heard CBS is unable to document their authenticity. They never claimed they were faked and the ones that did claim that have fairly well been debunked. Do you pay any attention at all?

[DarkPhenyx]

27. Why don't you address the point of the post instead.

That would be nice.

Jesus.

[TruthIsAll]

66. Admit your error Phenyx. Don't be like Bush Cheney.

The documents have NOT been proven fake. On the contrary, experts have claimed otherwise, but this has NOT reported by the media.

Recognize that you have made a false statement and move on to your point.

[DarkPhenyx]

78. prove they are real.

an assumptionm I am not ready to make yet. nor am I ready to admit they are fake...however it's looking more and more likely the documents are fake, the assertions may be real, but the document s fake. THink on that. Come back later.

life is not black and white. both positions may well be wrong.

think on that as well.

[TankLV]

71. Because you're premise is flawed and should be exposed for the falacy it

is overe any other concerns.

Start with a lie, and the rest sinks like the stinking turd it is.

[DarkPhenyx]

77. so what is the lie?

provide evidence that proves it a falicy.

or fuck off, or apologize.

your choice of course.

[punpirate]

6. Only problem is...

... that the documents have never been "proved" to be fakes. CBS withdrew the story because they could not verify the provenance of the documents.

Most recently, a Utah State media professor named Hailey, who is an expert at typography, said his analysis shows the documents were written on a typewriter current at the time the documents were dated. Since he doesn't have the originals, he can't say anything about absolute authenticity.

The documents story is again more about the clamor of the right wing than about any attempt at the truth.

And, in that sense, no one's going to revisit the administration's claims before the war, apart from what the NYT had to say in its article this past weekend. They certainly aren't going to say some people at DU were right....

Cheers.

[Mistress Quickly]

7. The problem is

you would have to go so far back on DU, because it was called here so-oooo-ooooooooooo long ago.

The other memogate thingie, it was there and new, and then whammy.

It should have been picked up from DU about, oh, what 2 years ago? 18 months ago? So sadly, no, its not going to happen.

[nofurylike]

11. thank you, DarkPhenyx!

you've just given me the substance and perspective of my next LTTE!

i was looking for exactly that!

you got the crux there.

i have seen in some places, maybe here, anyone?:

"rather lied no one died."

i know he didn't lie, but even if... the play against:

BUSH LIED THOUSANDS DIED!!!!!!

has IMPACT.


thank you, again



peace!

[DarkPhenyx]

17. You are more than welcome.

Thank you for recognizing the point I was driving at instead of letting yourself get distracted. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. sad state of affairs when a "questionable" document is discredited

then dropped as though it were proven to be faked, but QUESTIONABLE evidence that took us to war, resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and staggering economic costs is overlooked as if "oops" is enough.

Good attempted point on your part..but notice how insideous the inference is that the documents were PROVEN fakes when that is not the case...discredited, yes...proven, no.

[DarkPhenyx]

25. discredited or fake...

...they are crap now, and not worth the paper they are on. They are worse than useless as now it will be harder for anything more legitimate to get a fair hearing.

[Occulus]

108. Wouldn't it be interesting, though,

if the original looked exactly like the 'fake'?

Then it becomes not a fake, but a well- done reproduction. For example:

I have an old single sheet rolled-up copy of our Constitution that I bought when I was in Washington on a trip in high school. It's not the real document, obviously, but rather a reproduction. An *exact* reproduction. And, even if not exact, the text is still the same as the original.

So, the original status of the NG document would be in question, but the content itself would not. I think that's what people mean when they say "the documents were never proven to be fakes."

Just my $.02.

[DrWeird]

19. I guess P.T. Barnum was right.

nt

[DarkPhenyx]

24. ok,

why don't you comment on the point of the post instead of being a jerk off and focusing on nothing at all, k?

[FredScuttle]

28. Let me predict the start of DarkPhenyx's next post

"So when it was proven that John Kerry helped the VietCong torture our POW's...he heated up the red hot pokers before handing them off to the interrogators..."

[DarkPhenyx]

34. cute

banal and stupid, but cute.

[FredScuttle]

38. Why don't you stop attacking me and address the point of my post?!!!

Huh?!!

[DarkPhenyx]

40. you first.

[FredScuttle]

45. Shotgun

you first

[DarkPhenyx]

48. *laughing hysterically* n/t

[DrWeird]

29. It's not about the memos.

It's about the lying.

[DarkPhenyx]

35. Which part. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

21. Not only have they not been "proven" fake, they may well be genuine

We're not the Soviets; if you make an accusation, it's your job to prove it. CBS has withdrawn its contention because it can't prove authenticity. Those who claim this as proof of forgery need to present their proof. There is none to date. They very well may have been made on a period typewriter that would have been there, they echo sentiments of Killian's that were well known and any "army" terminology does not preclude their having been written by a Colonel in the Air National Guard.

It's not just a technicality that they haven't been proven fake; much evidence actually points to them having been copies of the real deal. The door-slamming distortion of the right and its enabling by the corporate media are at fault here.

[DarkPhenyx]

26. ok...here's my accusation then...

...which is the same fucking one I made in the first post and everyone seems to be too stupid to read.

The RW pundits aren't going to go, oh...see here where DU had it right. Go them.

Jesus fucking christ this place gets assanine some days.

[DrWeird]

30. You've only yourself to blame.

If I'd started a thread with a post:

When the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor in 1945...

[FredScuttle]

32. or

When Al Gore invented the Internet


or


When George McGovern promised to destroy our entire defense and turn our country over to the Marxists

[DarkPhenyx]

33. actually...

...I blame the people who didn't bother to read, and the level of emotion at the moment which is causing rampant stupidity.

[DrWeird]

36. The only person getting emotional is you.

You're calling everybody stupid, except yourself.

Which is kind of ironic when you think about it.

[DarkPhenyx]

37. ah yes.

now the veiled insult and still haven't addressed the remainder of my post.

So you don't think it's stupid to pick one point, that wasn't even the main point of the thread, and harp on it exclusively ignoring the main thrust? Curious.

Yeah, I'm a little annoyed about it. I'm tired of this fucking jackassery.

[FredScuttle]

39. So...

do you still think they're forgeries?

[DarkPhenyx]

41. I think it's entirely possible they are.

do you have definitive evidence that they are? I know I don't. Nor do I have definitive evidence that they are not.

None of this is germaine to the orignal post really, and is nothing but a distraction. A sad, pathetic, sorry distraction. Whic, BTW, could have been avoided had someone actually bothered to read.

[FredScuttle]

44. Answer: no, they aren't definitive forgeries

the distraction could have been avoided if you hadn't made a false assertion at the beginning of your post.

[DarkPhenyx]

47. you beleive it to be a false assertion.

others beleive it to be a true one.

fact is neither side knows for sure. and it isn't a Dem v. Rep side issue

it isn't a Lib v. Con side issue.

*thinking*

It is also a distraction that could easily have been avoided if people read, attempted to inform themsleves first, thought for a moment...then mde up their minds. Unfortunately, in America, particularly lately, these are things that neither side of the equation is willing to do. This is why we are failing. Not we Dem/libs. We Americans. We the leading Democratic society on the planet. We...as human beings living in a very complex world where the answers are not always black and white. where the bad guys don't alwys lie to us, nad where the good guys don't alwys tell the truth. Fuck...it's a world where the bad guys aren't even always bad.

*soft chuckle* Shit happy, I'm not even always an asshole.

cats are always food though. some things in life are immutable.

[FredScuttle]

52. It's a false assertion, thus your comparison is wrong

I see your point about whether RW pundits will credit liberal/progressive sites for being right about the WMD lies (frankly, I'm not holding my breath, but that's another discussion). However, you're equating the WMD evidence (which has been documented as false) and the Killian memos (which CBS can't substantiate) as false evidence. Yes, in the WMD case, but no in the memo case.

The point is that, at this moment, you cannot aver with certainty that the memos are forgeries. If I stand on the beach in Northern California at 1 pm and say "the sun has set", you would obviously say that I'm wrong. No matter that at 6 or 7 pm I may be right.

[DarkPhenyx]

54. Nor, can we...

...say at this moment that the Killain memo's are the God's honest truith. Hell, even his own secretary, who will tell you Killain actually thought about Bush in the way put forward in the memo, says that it is most likely not authentic.

When you compare the two issues, between the oposing sides, they have equal validity. I can see now logic and discourse were a waste of time here.

[FredScuttle]

69. Who said they were authentic?

No one in this thread...we don't know yet. But, it has not been proven that they are forgeries, either.

I'm not asserting in big bold letters that the memos are authentic. But you started your post by saying "So, when the CBS documents were proven to be faked..." - never happened!

Logic and discourse are needed here, but they're certainly not coming from your way.

[DarkPhenyx]

76. oh fucking please

have you even read the rest of the posts?

I have already admited that it my be a fake? what part of that didn't you get? what part of that didn't you fucking understand?

Shit.

come back when...

[FredScuttle]

84. I would respond

if I had any clue about what you're talking about. Put down the flask and try typing s-l-o-w-l-y.

[DarkPhenyx]

96. put down the flask yourself

and read slowly

or concede the argument and admit defeat. your choice.

[FredScuttle]

101. "Uncle"

I give...there is no overcoming your invincible combination of utter ignorance and unflinching, unwavering obstinate petulance. This must be what it's like dealing with Dim Son.

I've had more meaningful debates with skid row derelicts...and they were 10x as drunk as you.

[DarkPhenyx]

103. or you simply don't get it.

hey, no failure in admiting you didn't understand. We fault Bush for not doing so all the time, don't we?

You might want to look at post #7.

[FredScuttle]

106. No I understand

you are a (self-admitted) asshole and you enjoy spouting fake RW talking points, then throw a tizzy like a child when you're called on it. You seem to revel in this...congrats.

I would put you on ignore, but I suspect that the majority of people here have already given you that designation, so I'll be kind.

[DarkPhenyx]

111. mmmmmmmmmmmm, nope.

you didn't get it.

go ahead and place me on ignore if you like. :shrug: apparently plugging ones ears and shouting "N-na-na-na I'm not listening to you" has become a viable part of political discourse these days.

[TankLV]

73. There seems to only be one person who is the "jackass" here.

And we can all read who.

[Sterling]

43. Yes the irony is thick.

nt

[DarkPhenyx]

49. Fuck off.

You aren't even paying attention, let alone understanding the game.

[Sterling]

55. That is too funny.

Plz explain the game.

At this point it's just fun watching you frak out on everyone because they called you on your sloppery.

Details matter.

[DarkPhenyx]

60. The game is...

...getting Bush out of office w/o sacraficing everything we stand for.

Now, do you have a fucking clue about teh game or do you need to grow up?

[TankLV]

74. Indeed fun.

Must be taking a cue from bunkerboy's meltdown.

[DarkPhenyx]

81. so long as you take the right cue

otherwise you are no better than the opposition

[TankLV]

72. Yes, and it is usually because of assinine statements, and name calling.

You are a good example.

[Occulus]

109. If you replaced "DU" with "Free Republic" in your post, you'd be

making a factually correct historical observation. I just... thought I'd point that out. :)

[Selwynn]

22. They aren't "proven" anything.

[robbedvoter]

42. When did THAT happen?

[troubleinwinter]

46. Though your innitial post seems nearly unintelligible

I suppose you are asking if the RW, Freeps and media will admit that the original claims of WMD were legitimate. I think the answer is no.

Your subject line has nothing to do with your post.

[DarkPhenyx]

50. it has a great deal to do with my post...

...if you only think. Quit being a partisan whatever you are for a moment...and just think.

[troubleinwinter]

51. OK, I have stopped to think.

I think you should put down the crack pipe and step away slowly.

Apparently, your purpose is not to make a point or discuss anything here, but rather to play stupid games.

Here are some things that you have said in this thread about people here:

jerk off
stupid
rampant stupidity
assanine (note: the correct spelling is 'asinine')
Fuck off
everyone seems to be too stupid
fucking jackassery

I regret having played any part in your game. Buh-bye.

[DarkPhenyx]

53. have a nice night and thank you for playing.

gee...there is no chance I was trying to highlight the hypocrasy of the opposition by pointing out where they laud the "wisdom and intellignece" of FreeRepublic simply because, like ever other political forum, they screamed "it isn't so" when it went against their people, but now that we, their opposition, are in the same position, that we would get a resounding silence. No, that absolutely isn't a possibility. Thank you ever so much for enlightening us about this point.

[Sterling]

56. Would it not be easier to just admit you made a mistake

Instead of blaming everyone else and distracting people from what you claim your real point is?

It kinda seems like you are going about it in a very George Bush kinda way.

[DarkPhenyx]

58. Define easier.

Easier to conceed that I was oh so wrong as opposed to they didn't read?

Easier to concced that they are right and I'm a Freeper lurker as opposed to just a Liberal Asshole who demands peoplethink and be informed?

Nope...sorry...ain't gonna happen.

Yes, it's easier...jsut isn't moral.

[Sterling]

61. No just admit you were wrong.

Everyone else see's it. You are not doing yourself an favors pretending it's not true.

[DarkPhenyx]

62. So where was I wrong?

Please provide concrete, indisputable, evidence for such.

Hummmmmmmmm, in fact...tell me upon which suposition I was wrong. This should be interesting.

[troubleinwinter]

57. Oh.

I see. Your point was that the opposition is hypocritical. Huh. Wow. That sure is some news.

I suppose your point could have been made more clearly. And without all the name calling and insults. But hey, you are the only smart one here. Most others, according to you, are stupid 'assanine' (asinine) jerkoffs.

[DarkPhenyx]

59. fisrt off typos in my posts are no big surprise.

get used to them. they are, after all, Gods will. :)

no, most others aren't stupid assanine jerkoffs. Everyone does, however, behave that way on occassion.

Now, for the record. I'm an Asshole. Born and Bred. It's genetic. My Dad's an Asshole too.

[troubleinwinter]

65. "Now, for the record. I'm an Asshole." [DarkPhenyx]

:toast:

[DarkPhenyx]

75. yes and?

what is your fucking point?

People who are real to DU...thouse who have been here for long enough to know...will tell you in a heartbeat that I am an asshole.

you will also find that some of the oldest, the truest, count me a friend.

Think on that for a while. Come back to them when you have ananswer to that quandry. Not me, them.

[troubleinwinter]

79. Dude!

"I am an asshole"

I was not arguing with you! We will probly end up friends. Assholes are some of the best people. Just now gettin' to know ya.

Just wanted to toast your comment about being an asshole, is all. You said it, I never did.

:toast:

[DarkPhenyx]

80. honesty in all thing

and in all thing honesty...particularly when we are talking to ourselves.

[troubleinwinter]

83. The "asshole" thing wasn't really MY point, anyway.

It was yours.

I like you better all the time.

When I grow up, I wanna be someone who "is real DU". Can you please send me the rules? I thought talking the standard line, as laid out by others, was something you did not care for???

[DarkPhenyx]

87. of course it's my point

sa I said...honesty in all things

if you want the "rules" they are posted from the home page. I am definately not the one to ask about the "rules". No, I don't know why I'm still here. I think Skinner has a liking for me of one sort or another, or that my theory that the assholes and curmudgeons are the only survivors of any revolution is correct.

or I live a bad enough life hta I am cursed. Take your pick.

In any case I am not "real DU" . I'm just fucking me. I'm just Phe, and that is good enough, and all I can be anyway.

[troubleinwinter]

90. I like you, too.

[DarkPhenyx]

93. this will not make you popular.

[troubleinwinter]

94. I don't know that I've been 'popular' anyway.

[DarkPhenyx]

97. so be it

best of luck

[TruthIsAll]

67. It's the hypocr i sy. That'ss what you mean, ain't it?

You are pissing everybody off here, because you can't admit an error.

You are one defensive SOB. Come on, admit it. It's OK. No one is perfect. You were misled like millions of others into believing that the memos are absolutely fakes.

Shows you the power of the whoremedia.

[DarkPhenyx]

85. ok, listen...

...dumbass.

If you have ever payed attention I freely admit I'm an asshole

this does not make me wrong.

[Dookus]

63. as his been pointed out repeatedly

they were NEVER proven to be forgeries. CBS claimed they could no longer guarantee their provenance.

Don't buy into the spin.

[T Town Jake]

64. They'll just claim that everyone was "misled"...

...instead of just bellying up to the bar and giving credit where credit is due.

[RapidCreek]

68. They were never proven to have been faked

RC

[DarkPhenyx]

82. not have then been "pr oven" to be authentic

sadly these. like so man other pieces of evidence, will require us to have faith.

I have faith Bush didn't fulfill his obligation. I do not have faith that this document is the smoking gun proving that.

[troubleinwinter]

86. Who said they were the "smoking gun"?

[DarkPhenyx]

88. *waiting for you to finish that though*

no rush

I'm patient

a bit drunk too

[troubleinwinter]

89. It was not my "though(t)"

It was a question about your comment: "I do not have faith that this document is the smoking gun".

I asked who said it was "the smoking gun".

[DarkPhenyx]

91. I believe you are the first person to mention "smoking gun"

in this thread...so...um...that would be you

[troubleinwinter]

92. Hahahahah!

READ fucking post #82, authored by YOU!

I love ya more all the time!

[DarkPhenyx]

95. point to you

did you miss the "do not" portion of that post though?

[troubleinwinter]

98. As in like:

"So, when the CBS documents were proven to be faked..."?

[DarkPhenyx]

99. do you have

concrete evidence tht they are not?

and you do realize you are falling into the trap of youir own mind and not really paying attention to the real quastion...which means, more than i, you are perpetuating the RW agenda.

[troubleinwinter]

100. I did not express an opinion...

as to whether they were, or were not.

I merely toasted your own comment that you are an asshole, and said I probably like you. I pointed out that you were the one to bring up 'smoking gun'.

Step away from the pipe, friend.

just a'settin here perpetuating the RW agenda,
~your new pal

[DarkPhenyx]

102. *c*

game set and match

you led me into the trap, and I entered willingly...this does not, however prove anything of note. It simply proves that I stepped into the trap.

You should be warned...I sacrifice my pals to pave they way for me into the next life. Unless you are willing to kill yourself for Me I don't need you as a pal.

[troubleinwinter]

104. Cool.

I never offered to "prove anything of note", anyway.

[DarkPhenyx]

105. and you suceeded.

congrats

end of line

[troubleinwinter]

107. "Even - Steven"

[Occulus]

110. *sigh* here's what I think happened to these docs, DP

These guys, above all other things, are (or have been until very recently) politically sharp as razors: I'm meaning Rove, Cheney, and so on. Just as soon as Bush* became Texas governor, I bet his NG records were... fiddled with. They may well be 'fiddling' with more of them as we speak. After all, that record MUST be made squeaky fucking clean, and I mean you could puree his record and feed it to your premature newborn child. THAT clean.

Why else would the records drip, dripdrip, drip out as they are? In the Plame threads, H20 Man suggested we look at the 'why'. Well, I'm about to suggest a 'why' for the end status of this NG document.

Suppose- just suppose, now- that they wanted this document to come out, but be discredited? What better way to do that, than reproduce that document, with a couple notable discrepancies, and then destroy the true original or otherwise dispose of it? No one would ever be able to prove the copy of the document to be 100% true and correct, because there would be 'errors' in the format of the document that raise questions about its general credibility in the first place.

Thus, the contents themselves become discredited (even if there's no correlation between the format and the contents), nobody in the opponent's campaign will touch it with a ten foot pole, and (best of all) nobody can ever prove or disprove it completely.

The end result: the documents never get mentioned again after the initial flap. And what do we have today? Why, the Bush* NG issue has sunk like a stone!

Imagine that. Just like they wanted in the first place, except now they know the status of the information and know it won't ever be mentioned again.

Just like they want.

PS- BTW, I know what your original post is actually about. I'm not here to attack anyone but obvious Freepers when they decide to crawl out of their wet, slimy, maggot-infested holes- which you didn't do.