US sells Israel 500 'bunker-busters'

[Q]

US sells Israel 500 'bunker-busters'

Iran says Israel would 'pay a price' for pre-emptive strike against its nuclear facilities.
by Jim Bencivenga | csmonitor.com
September 24, 2004

The announcement this week by Israel that it would buy 500 "bunker-buster" bombs from the United States concentrated the world's attention on the escalating crisis over Iran's clerical-ruled republic's alleged development of nuclear weapons, reports the International Herald Tribune.

The 2,000 pound bombs, capable of penetrating concrete fortifications 6 feet thick, are part of one of the largest weapons deals between Israel and the US in years. The bombs include airborne versions, guidance units, training bombs and detonators. They are guided by an existing Israeli satellite used by the military.

In addition to the 500 one-ton bunker-busters, the purchase includes 2,500 other one-ton bombs, 1,000 half-ton bombs and 500 quarter-ton bombs. Funding will come from US military aid to Israel.

The timing of the sale couldn't be more pointed.

Both the US and Israel have strongly objected to Iran's nuclear enrichment program, claiming it is a thinly veiled ploy to develop a nuclear strike capability, and not the energy project Iran says it is.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0924/dailyUpdate.html?s=ent

[AG78]

1. This will make Iran back down

Iran, as a crazy government, won't want to piss off two other crazy governments with lots of weapons.

So selling 4,500 bombs makes the world safer?

I really do hope we blow each other up. Why waste the time and money, if you're not going to go out with a bang?

[chookie]

4. This is not a given

I actually heard someone try to defend Bush as a leader on the premise that other nations were afraid of him because he is fucking nuts.

In fact, this is a tactic that Richard Nixon used during the Viet Nam war -- he wanted Kissinger to spread the notion that Nixon was totally unpredictable and was capable of anything. Um -- even though that was true, at least to a certain extent, it had no influence on the outcome of that conflict.

As far as Iran quaking in its boots in fear of Israel and the US (rightly so, as they are the most powerful and ruthless armies on the planet), don't count on them to back down.

One of the lessons of the War of Chimpire is that -- EVEN if you disarm, and make attempts to go along with weapon inspections, etc -- the United States will STILL attack you viciously, remove your regime, and kills lots and lots of your people, and turn your country into rubble.

So -- do you want to be stupid, and disarm, and just put your feet up and let the US and Israel bomb the shit out of you and take over -- or do you want to hang onto some weapons with which to defend yourself? Sure, you might realistically understand that it is impossible for you to prevail against these invincible armies -- but there is the satisfaction of making them bleed too, at least a bit.

I have not seen this point addressed, but yet another one of the bungling misjudgements of the War of Chimpire is that in the future, no country threatened by the US will voluntarily disarm, because it knows that the US cannot be trusted not to attack even if you keep up your end of the bargain.

Sidenote -- those of us who are more reality-based are appalled by how wrong this stupid war has been, how idiotic its assumptions, how ineptly it has been waged, what horrible consequences lie ahead. BUT on the other hand, Bush's core of supporters -- religious wackos -- have NO problem with total meltdown into a world-wide military conflagration, because when His Chimperial Majesty fusks up, and things get worse, the religious wackos are joyous that we are in The End Times, the time of tribulation which will culminate with the return of Jesus, or for the advent of the Messiah. This is just one aspect of how totally fucked up our times have become....

[bloom]

25. Why should anyone trust us?

You make a lot of valid points.



I wish the "religious wackos" would find out how much greed is involved in their noble cause.

If you know any who read - send them this: http://harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

[chookie]

2. What's the battle plan?

The Bushistas are planning to expand the war throughout the entire region of the Middle East. It will be the long term world war they have been rubbing their hands and drooling over for decades.

During Poppy's war, Israel was asked, and was given massive amounts of money, to sit on the sidelines.

But what is the plan this time? In their scenarios of a once-and-for-all all out war, is the plan that the US and Israel actively fight as allies, or will the US fight a proxy war for Israel as well as secure the Middle East for the freedom of our cherished plutocrats to "create jobs" for themselves, and presumably, for tens of thousands of our soldiers?

[whistle]

3. Sold these weapons? Excuse me, they have been given to Israel....

...as part of the pentagon's military aid package to Israel

[Radius]

5. You are

aware we have a similar arrangement with Egypt. They build our m1a1 tank and use it as their main battle tank. We subsidized this project into the millions of dollars.

[whistle]

6. Right, but do we also sell/give Egypt bunker busters

[Radius]

7. Don't Know

They fly f16 aircraft and that can most certainly sling a bunker buster bomb.

My point is we subsidize lots of nations, not just the evil zionist entity.

[Gyre]

11. We "sell" Egypt shit for weapons

and we'd never sell them anything they could effectively use against Israel. The F16s we sell them are gutted crap with old avionics that couldn't hold their own in a dogfight w/ Israeli F16s even with pilots that were twice as competent as Israeli counterparts (which will never happen).

We do not sell truly advanced weapons systems to Arab countries, period.

Gyre

[Radius]

24. M1A1 Abrams is built by Egypt.

They have ah-64's
and the f-16c is one of the best dogfighters in the world. Hands down.

They are not trained to the level of the IDF but that is internal issue.

All weapon systems are only as effective as the person using it.

Your statement in incorrect. The Turks operate American aircraft, Jordanians f16B, Saudis run e-3 AWACS and f-15. Sorry charlie, it ain't just the evil Zionist entity who gets American weapon systems.

[SOS]

26. No

This is a myth. Of the 22 industrialized nations no nation gives less aid than the US in % GDP. The US does not subsidize "lots of nations". To see where every penny of H.R. 4818 went see the link below. (HR 4818 makes appropriations for foreign operations, export financing, and related programs for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2005)

http://www.foreignaidwatch.org/print.php?sid=792

Here's how industrialized nations rank in foreign assistance as % of GDP:

Official Development Assistance (ODA) 2003
ODA as GNP Percentage
1.
Norway
0.92

2.
Denmark
0.84

3.
Netherlands
0.81

4.
Luxembourg
0.8

5.
Sweden
0.7

6.
Belgium
0.61

7.
Ireland
0.41

8.
France
0.41

9.
Switzerland
0.38

10.
United Kingdom
0.34

11.
Finland
0.34

12.
Germany
0.28

13.
Canada
0.26

14.
Spain
0.25

15.
Australia
0.25

16.
New Zealand
0.23

17.
Portugal
0.21

18.
Greece
0.21

19.
Japan
0.2

20.
Austria
0.2

21.
Italy
0.16

22.
United States
0.1

[Radius]

27. .1 percent of a very big number is big.

Not saying an amount, but that we support all types of projects around the world with loan guarantees to ensure US contractor get a piece of the pie. South Korea recently purchased American jets with financial influence.

[SOS]

30. Every penny is itemized

in the Foreign Aid Watch link. Of the 0.1% of GDP almost nothing goes to helping anyone.
It's all Israel, Egypt, Afghanistan plus alot of things like The Andean Counter Drug Initiative, International Military Education Training (IMET), International Narcotics Control, Anti-terrorism, Foreign Military Financing and DOD Expenses, Arms Export Control.

I just take issue with the popular notion that the US is this grandly generous nation that spends vast sums helping poor farmers in Africa irrigate their fields. Simply untrue. It's mostly war money and most of it goes to "the Middle East".

[Radius]

32. Millitary and Aid are seperate

But not all of either goes to the evil jews..


We give plenty in humanatarian support.
Horses mouth..
http://www.usaid.gov/press/factsheets/
accumulated data.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

[Q]

8. Visit the website Federation of American Scientists...

... ( fas.org ) and review their Arms Sales Monitor newsletter. It lists every country the US sells or 'trades' weapons to and goes into great detail.

[drdon326]

9. Works for me.....

Iran has made it totally clear than dont give a rats ass about the IAEA and have rattled their nukes towards Israel.

Iran is a non-progressive terrorist-supporting little thugocracy.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000417.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Israel doesn't give a rats ass about the IAEA and has nuclear weapons.

And, uses them to threaten her neighbors. And, supports terrorists. And, uses terrorist methods.

And, is a non-progressive thugocracy.

[drdon326]

17. Nice Anti-israel diatribe.....

not true on any level but its a free forum.

check this out:

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. So Israel doens't have WMD? And, does allow inspectors?

Right.

[Julien Sorel]

22. LOL

How utterly pathetic can you get? In all honesty, only the most brain dead idiot could read that site without laughing half the time and retching in disgust the other half, and only a deluded halfwit could actually present that site and pretend it ads anything to any rational discussion anywhere on any subject besides examining the pathology of self delusion, or perhaps, bad propaganda.

What an absolutely amazing world this is.

[Deja Q]

31. Aren't we all, though?

:shrug:

[Ardee]

10. so is anyone really surprised?

While the strategy of using Israel as our mid-east bully (or threat thereof)has been replaced with the decision to maintain our own bullying presence there money must still be made!

A tidy profit for the military industrial complex, further insurance of high paying positions for retiring administration figures et al. The system works!!

Is there anyone dense enough to believe that, should Kerry somehow actually win this selection, our nation will cease selling weapons of mass destruction willy-nilly, will stop imposing our will upon those unfortunate enough to live on top of precious (and dwindling) natural resources or will refuse to incorporate corporate desires in its foreign and domestic policies?

[OneBlueSky]

12. aren't these some of the weapons that use depleted uranium?

and aren't we therefore exporting weapons of mass destruction? . . .

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. So, we arm and deploy one of our surrogates to do the dirty work.

How charming. We give even more weapons to the one nation in the Middle East that does have WMD and threatens to use them, in order to stop another nation from acquiring them and threatening to use them.

[drdon326]

15. No.....

we arm and deploy our ally,ISRAEL, who has been at the forefront in dealing with terror, against a regressive anti-democratic terror-supporting regime called IRAN that is run by a bunch of wacko's...who
have made it clear they have nooo problem wiping israel off the face of the earth.

Hope that helps.

[Ardee]

16. so your voting for Bush

Good luck with that.

[drdon326]

18. Nice insult....Kerry's has always been my man.

.

[Ardee]

33. insults are what they are

and you cannot seem to see that Israel is certainly as repugnant a nation towards its neighbors, carries out genocidal policies against children and has for years.

If you post as would a right wing die hard then dont get insulted if you are mistaken for one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Yeah, right. Like Israel is for Democracy? Since when?

When the supported the apartheid South African government?

When they started to build their own Apartheid fence?

When they invaded Lebanon and killed thousands of civilians?

When they've refused to deal with the Palestinians?

When they kill civilians in Gaza and the West bank?

As to their being at the "forefront of dealing with terror", how has it worked so far?

Not to mention their use of "terror" in their war against the Palestinians.

[drdon326]

21. LOL

When the supported the apartheid South African government?....NOT SUPPORT...traded with.

When they started to build their own Apartheid fence? ...NOT EVEN CLOSE...ITS A PEACE FENCE THAT SAVED LIVES..

When they invaded Lebanon and killed thousands of civilians?..after being brutalized by endless terrorist attacks.

When they've refused to deal with the Palestinians? ...LAUGHABLE.

When they kill civilians in Gaza and the West bank?..RIGHT....BLAME
THE VICTIM

As to their being at the "forefront of dealing with terror", how has it worked so far? ...PERHAPS TO YOUR DISMAY,THEYRE STILL AROUND.

Not to mention their use of "terror" in their war against the Palestinians....GIVEN the fact that hamas,ij and all the other terrorstinian groups have basically "wrote the book" on terrorism,
your statement is incorrect.

enjoy yourself.
http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/3/index.htm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. You left out a few things.

They "traded" with S.A.? You make it sound like they were swapping tomatoes for plums. They sold arms to S.A. to suppress the ANC.

"Peace Fence" my ass. They walled the Palestinians off from their own country, often expropriating Palestinian land.

Lebanon. Sharon gave the green light to the Christian Falangists to perpetrate massacres in the Palestinian refugee camps. Hell, even the Israelis were outraged.

Are you denying that they've killed civilians in the West Bank and Gaza?

I'm not at all dismayed that Israel survives. I hope that it does, despite it's policys.

The Israelis are no strangers in the use of terror. The Irgun used it rather robustly against the Palestinians and the Brits. And, they still use terror techniques. Assasination, the killing of civilians, bulldozing of houses, etc.

They're "negotiations" with the Palestinians have been a farce.

You have yet to comment on their possesion of WMD and refusal to allow inspections.

[Crago]

28. Israeli Spying on the US

And, Why hasn't any of the media denounced Israeli spying on the US??? First Jonathan Pollard and now AIPAC. Why aren't they calling for Israel to stop spying on us?

[Deja Q]

29. What else can we do to prove to the Islamic world we really do hate them?

Israel is hardly a nice, peaceful, democratic country either. Why are they preferred?

If we are to be a "world's policemen" ( :eyes: ), then surely we need to act on equal footing? In other words, not sell weapons to ANYBODY and just use diplomacy?

This will only create more Islamic terrorists, which is what * wants. And should they be able to overrun Israel, then we gave them some nice weapons before we nuke them.

("we really do hate them" speaks of the US as ran by its leaders. I do not believe this sale is in the best interests of the US or the world. But whatever will be will be. Maybe we'll be lucky and Toutatis will hit. :shrug: )