what's a good way to make sure all votes are foolproof & crookproof?

[mopaul]

election cheating is as old as elections, but i wish there was a way to guarantee that votes are in fact counted, as in, a receipt perhaps. or a record of it somewhere anyway. i voted absentee today, and the ballot itself has no place to sign, so i signed it in the corner and dated it.

on the mailing envelope, you sign it, but not the ballot itself.
and don't even get me started on diebold.

somebody needs to come up with a simple elegant solution to fit the times.

[alittlelark]

1. Oregon has a good system, bu it could be improved -

The ballot should be in triplicate - one gets mailed, the other goes to a state run drop box, and the other one is kept with the voter.

[phantom power]

2. I've heard that Canada uses all-manual counting

They claim their system works quicly and efficiently. Any Canadians out there back that up?

[BeFree]

4. Lots of human eyes

Until the source code is totally free and open, and the recording of your vote is stored on two separate dics, and the computer experts are all satisfied that the programming is as close to perfect as can be,

Only human eyes and hands should be tallying the vote cast with pen on paper.

[ParanoidPat]

13. Thanks BeFree! That is indeed the only way.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance! The responsibility to be vigilant is non transferable.

It's up to all of us. :toast: :evilgrin: :thumbsup:

If you're at home in the land of the homeless,
you're content in a pen in the 'home of the free',
you're at ease dissing vets in the 'home of the brave',
When you wake up a slave, save your breath, don't come bleating to me!

[BeFree]

15. The price of remaining free

One must do one's duty. Freedom is a priceless object, and is something enjoyed by so few humans, and an object that many a man and woman have died whilst attempting to remain free. I'm sure, if you could ask them all, they would say it was worth the price.

I thank you Pat, for standing with the BBV crew all this time. You are one of the unsung heroes in this march to keep America free. :toast:

[HEyHEY]

24. I've never heard of a problem

however, in my recolection we use the same system as multiple choice electronic ballots for some elections - the other way for others.

[Solon]

3. There is no way to guarantee it...

that is impossible, the BEST scenario is to MINIMIZE the fraud and mistakes, because eliminating them is impossible.

[Zan_of_Texas]

5. Late to the party?

Okay. Here's what I think. Based on 20 months effort.

First, do vote. If you don't vote, you can be 100% sure your vote will not count. One theory is that if there is a landslide, the other side will be unable to believably steal the election.

Second, encourage anyone you know to register (in our area, it's thirty days before, so before October 4).

Third, encourage everyone you know to be sure and vote.

Fourth, do 5 minutes research, and spread info to friends of where your county clerk (or election official) has their website, what their phone number is, what the dates are for registration, early voting (if you have that), etc. Lots of people don't take the trouble to find these things out, and it just slips their mind.

If you want to be a poll watcher to try to prevent or catch vote counting fraud or voter suppression, here are three options:

1. Join the Election Watch Crew by signing up on www.BlackboxVoting.org

2. If you have any technology background, join Tech Watch by signing up on www.VerifiedVoting.org (go to right of front page)

3. Or, there is an additional watch program that is more aimed at attorney efforts to stop voter suppression etc. People for the American Way and a bunch of other groups are doing that -- sorry, I don't have their national contact info.


Also available for poll watchers are two sheets prepared especially by two of the most experienced computer people who have been critical of electronic voting. Check them out at www.countthevote.org
Go down to this entry: Sunday, August 22, 2004

Hints, Tips and Tricks to Electronic PollWatching
Thanks to the collaborative efforts of CountTheVote.org and VotersUnite.org we have 2 documents available for those who wish to participate in establishing a Poll Watcher group against electronic voting:

A step by step guide to establishing a poll watching group is available HERE and an example form for poll watchers to use at the polling place is available HERE.

_______________

These are short-term things. Long-term, a voter-verified paper ballot needs to be the legal ballot in every precinct in the country, whether that is an old-style paper ballot (like Canada and some rural places in Maine), an optically scanned paper ballot, or a printer attached to an electric voting machine. Robust, random audits need to happen for EVERY election, and ballots need to be tallied, printed, and signed and posted in each precinct in front of many eyes, before the ballots leave the polling place.

If your election official is shucking and jiving with the (almost all heavily-weighted Republican) vendors, claiming that electronic voting is the best thing since Genghis Khan, then start figuring out how you will oust them. The puzzle is how to oust people by voting them out using the flawed and insecure machinery they selected -- I'm still working on that -- will get back to ya.

[jimshoes]

6. I like your idea about a receipt of some sort

maybe like a copy of your ballot with computer markings of some sort to verify every candidate and issue you voted for/on. If you can get a receipt for your banking, you should be able to get one for your friggin vote. I hope your ballot doesn't get counted as an overvote by signing your name though. You can never be too safe.

[ramblin_dave]

7. Greg Palast said to avoid absentee ballots and to use

early voting instead. He claimed in an interview that early voting, two weeks in advance, is now required everywhere by federal law but I have not been able to verify this.

Palast claimed that lots of absentee ballots aren't counted and there's no way to know if your ballot was accepted or not. But he said that early voting gets you the chance to correct your ballot if there's a challenge.

But I don't know how early voting is done. Is it always a paper ballot like absentee, or do they have a machines set up? We should investigate this further.

See this link:

http://www.liberaloasis.com/palast3.htm

[cidliz2004]

8. This way would work

Person uses a card and colors in thier selection with a pencil/much like the punch card system

They then insert the card into a computer/machine that shows thier selection on a screen and then asks the voter if they agree with the what the screen says

The voter presses Yes No Revote

When the voter presses Yes, the machine/computer prints out a receipt one for the voter and one for the precinct. The machine is also tallying the counts.

There are now 4 seperate votes to trace if need be.

The precinct has their record

The voter has thier own record

The county party has their record

The computer/machine has it's own record

[mdmc]

10. best system ever

just a theroy , though, right. No such system exists.

[cidliz2004]

17. right, just a theory

We have the technology though, it wouldn't be hard to put in place. It really satisfies everybody, it is simple, there is a paper trial, it is computerized and it would be easy to audit.

[HFishbine]

27. Bad idea

Giving voters a copy of their ballot invites vote buying. If you can prove to someone who you voted for after you leave the polling place, you can sell your vote.

[mdmc]

9. I hope that you don't live in NY

where any mark outside of required areas will disqualify the ballot. It might not be that severe...

[troubleinwinter]

11. I suspect you blew this one.

Your ballot must be annonymous. By signing the ballot with your name, I am sure it'll be thrown out.

[mdmc]

12. thats what happens in ny, even if you just write where you are

told not too...

[mopaul]

16. blacked it out

hope it ain't totally screwed up. i still have time to do over.

[CrispyQ]

14. Voter verification is the only way. Here's my solution . . .

...although someone told me it is illegal to take a copy of your ballot out of the precinct - due to the possibility of selling your vote. But not only should the voter be able to verify how his/her vote was tallied, voters should be able to tally ALL votes & be sure the final number was not manipulated.

From a previous post: ================

Here’s my problem with the current system of voting – paper & pen OR electronic. Your vote is dependent on the trust in:

1) the competency of the people counting the votes; &
2) the integrity of the people counting the votes.

Personally, I don’t trust either! My solution addresses the issues of BOTH problems & is based on an electronic system that is verified by YOU, the voter. Here it is:

When you enter your precinct, you provide appropriate ID that you are a legitimate, registered voter. When verified, you are given an envelope with a random & unique (secret) number printed on it. You vote, which at some point includes entering or scanning your random number, & when you are finished, you get 2 printed copies of your ballot. One copy you place in the envelope & then into the ballot box . The other copy is yours, for your records.

The votes are tallied & within a day or two, all votes are published in a local newspaper and online, by precinct. All votes are listed under the secret number. You look up your vote to see that it was tallied, and that it was tallied correctly. If not, you have X number of days to contest & must present appropriate ID and YOUR printout of your precinct ballot.

Totals per precinct would also be published, so citizens could verify that the totals were correct & not manipulated.

Doesn’t this seem like a better way? I know that many people advocate voting via absentee ballot. But under the current systems, I still don’t have confidence that my vote will be counted, much less counted correctly.

We must have a system where each individual voter can verify that their vote has been tallied & has been tallied correctly AND that the total count has not been manipulated.

Please, poke holes in my idea. Let’s discuss a better, viable way to close the ‘loopholes’ in the current voting system.

[Zan_of_Texas]

19. PNR - doesn't work

Lots of people come up with this on the first try. It's bogus and here's why.

Ten people vote.

Person 1 votes for A
Person 2 votes for B
Person 3 votes for A
Person 4 votes for B
Person 5 votes for B
Person 6 votes for A
Person 7 votes for C
Person 8 votes for B
Person 9 votes for C
Person 10 votes for A

All ten check the newspaper to make sure their votes was tallied properly. Sure enough, here's what it says.

Person 1 votes for A
Person 2 votes for B
Person 3 votes for A
Person 4 votes for B
Person 5 votes for B
Person 6 votes for A
Person 7 votes for C
Person 8 votes for B
Person 9 votes for C
Person 10 votes for A
Person 11 votes for A
Person 12 votes for A
Person 13 votes for A
Person 14 votes for A

Okay. Persons 1-10 check their vote. All right. Everything great. Except, the bad guys have snuck fake voters in, 11-14, and they all voted for A. No way you persons 1-10 can know that Persons 11-14 never existed, but their votes now exist.

2000 technology folks have endorsed the voter verified paper ballot. Read up -- www.verifiedvoting.org
www.votersunite.org
www.blackboxvoting.org

[CrispyQ]

25. Thanks for pointing that out. And I'll check out those links!

[Yupster]

20. Can someone explain the fight going on in

California?

News says it's about whether a voter should have to show an ID to vote.

There must be more to it than that because who would be against showing an ID to vote. What's the point of properly counting the votes if you have no idea if the votes were cast by legal voters anyway.

Anyone from California explain this?

[troubleinwinter]

29. California

If you register by MAIL, you will be asked for ID the FIRST time you vote (only), in order to confirm an individual. Makes sense, otherwise someone could register by mail as 60 different people.

[Yupster]

31. Thanks

seems reasonable. So what's the fighting over? Who would be against that?

[HFishbine]

28. Again, vote buying is a problem

Any system that allows a voter to prove how they voted invites vote buying.

[renegade000]

18. lol unfortunately votes are never going to be foolproof...

sadly...:P

[Yupster]

21. Agree renegade

One suggestion I'd have is to punish anyone caught cheating, and punish them severely.

We had a guy locally who voted twice in the same primary, and he just got a slap on the wrist.

Some paper had a report of thousands of people registered in two states at once.

I can see that as a mistake, but then they started naming people who voted in both states in the same election. That's not a mistake. They need to be punished severely because they undermine our country.

Same with people who register dead people. Punish hard.

[darknesstolight]

22. This is good

How about a system that lets you conform your vote on line. They need emergency ballots in Florida for those displaced yea Bush is manipulating the homeless vote and troop vote. The way it works is you get all the homeless names from social security and tamper with it. Howard Dean showed how easy it is. The log in needs to be recorded by camera and the program needs to track it. Actually they need a two part system one paper and one digital to track both if one doesn't match it could mean charges would be filed. The troop vote will be manipulated by paper ballot why do you think he keeps them over there. Partly because of security problems but partly vote stealer. You know Bush wants to stop law suits but thats how he got into power - flip flop.

[HEyHEY]

23. Get the UN to do it

[HFishbine]

26. Are you sure your ballot won't be disqualified

for extraneous marks? You never know. I'd check.

[ISUGRADIA]

30. In Iowa at least your vote probably WOULD NOT COUNT

Under rules proposed by the Secretary of State (I do not know if they were adopted) this summer any identifying mark that could link a ballot to an individual voter would cause that ballot to be rejected by the absentee board.

And if you called an election office in Iowa saying you wanted to correct your ballot you'd also be out of luck. Once a ballot is accepted into the office the envelope is not opened until election day, the individual ballots separated from affidavit envelopes, then tabulated. If rules are followed, the ballot would likely not legally count.

Check your election office for guidance, it may not be too late in your state to correct, or extra marks may not make a difference.

[Eric J in MN]

32. Plain paper ballots, deposited into transparent ballot boxes,

hand-counted in front of the public (in the same room as the voting).

The voting is done in gyms, so there is enough room for people to wait around and watch the ballot-box if those so choose.