Seriously: Are things really starting to go bad in Iraq?

[battleknight24]

Are we really starting to lose control... my dad thinks that things have been out of control for a while now... the conservatives will probably just blame the media and say that its their portrayal of how things are going, not how they really are.

What are some clear current signs that this war/occupation is not going well... what have our troops said?


Peace,

[dennis4868]

1. my dad thinks that things have been out of control for a while now

father knows best!

[DBtv]

2. Does the pretzeldent snort coke?

We are getting our bloody asses handed to us in that inescapeable quagmire.

[gmoney]

3. Starting? No...

It's been widely scattered anarchy since the looting started... some pockets of "control" but now the insurgents are doing kidnappings in broad daylight and bombing at will.

[blackcat77]

4. I think it really is

The subversives/terrorists/nationalists have gotten their act together and we're handing more and more of the country over to them. And this isn't some commielib POV either -- it's what Gen McCaffrey said on Hardball last night.

He said that unless we can turn things around any elections that are held will be meaningless.

[AlCzervik]

5. The "No-go zones" are a signal right there

everyweek the coalition loses a little more ground. What was once a ragtag bunch a guys with ieds and rocket launchers has become a full scale insurrection.

[mike_c]

23. I love the term "no-go zones"-- what incredible spin....

It implies that we could go there but we choose not to. They used to call it "behind enemy lines," now it's "no-go zones." Hanoi was a "no-go zone" too.

Clarification-- I don't mean to imply that the Iraqi people are our enemies, only that even the jargon is in denial.

[AlCzervik]

24. i understand but you know that 8 doesn't want to scare "The kids!!"

and call it what it is...can't go cause we will get blown up zone.

[UTUSN]

6. Starting? n/t

[Justitia]

7. Yes, very, very bad. Not as inert as a "quagmire" even.

"Quagmire" implies a sort of stasis, continued action but not escalation.

Iraq is in an ever-increasing downward spiral - recently, very fast.
Like a roller coaster that has jumped the tracks right after a downward plunge.

Of course, the maladministration tried to pre-emptively spin this by saying "we told you it would get worse as it got closer to the elections" - and that crap ranks right up there with "they hate us for our freedom".

When they told us it would go to hell in a handbasket, it was because they knew after week three in Iraq that this invasion was a seriously screwed up trainwreck of an idea.

[Darranar]

8. Things have been going bad since the beginning of this invasion. n/t

[shraby]

9. Be real battleknight

We never have been in control and from the time we got there it's been going downhill right up to today. When our main men there have to live and do their work inside a "green zone" and not come out for air or they might not see another day, that isn't control.
Bremer handed over the country early in a 15 minute ceremony and before his hand went to his side from the ceremonial handshake, he was in a helicopter headed home.

Afghanistan is not in much better shape either. Most of it is in tribal or Taliban hands once again.

Bush's great adventures have been going south for a long time now.

[Mortos]

10. Don't be so negative

You guys can focus on the few bad things happening but what about the good? Did you know that a school in Iraq has new painted walls? Did you know that a soldier gave an Iraqi kid a bag of M&M's just a few days ago? You can focus on the fact that the country is spiraling into deadly chaos and mayhem and that over 1007 of our soldiers have been killed and over 7000 injured and that Iraqi's hate our guts and want us all dead or gone (at least the ones who didn't get blown up by an increasingly active and fearless guerilla force) and that it has cost us $200 billion and the country is in worse shape now than when we got there and that we will be there for 10 more years losing 2 soldiers a day and that the whole reason we were told we had to go there was a bald faced motherfucking lie; but I choose to focus on the good stuff.

[Ms. Clio]

15. Did you know that the Iraqi schoolkids now have crayons and magic markers?

Or at least some of them do--but never mind the millions that don't, it's a start, damn it! Now if only they could actually go to school without worrying about all those things going boom all the time in the neighborhood.

[Hubert Flottz]

31. Too bad they don't have hands to hold the magic markers with!

Or body armor to wear to church!

[Eloriel]

16. Snork

:evilgrin:

[LynzM]

18. nice...

ya almost had me hovering over the 'alert' button there, LOL. That was good.

[cidliz2004]

25. Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

[auburngrad82]

30. Here's a few...

How about the fact that daily "coalition" casualties have been steadily climbing for about 4 months now. In the 17 months since Bush declared an end to the war, only 4 months have seen higher casualties than any of the last four months.

During this month, American casualties occurred in 15 different locations. It's obvious that except for the Green Zone, American forces do not control Iraq.

Bush asked yesterday to shift several billion dollars from reconstruction projects (water, sewer, electricity) to security expenses.

We have had numerous members of Bush's "coalition" pull their citizens out of Iraq because it is too hostile.

151 civilian contractors have been killed since the start of the war including 15 on August 30th, just two weeks ago.

Five months after the Abu Gharaib abuse scandals, new abuse reports have surfaces this week from a different prison. It appears that it wasn't "isolated" as reported by the Bush administration.

Colin Powell said this week that he doesn't think that WMD will ever be found in Iraq.

I calculate the cost of the Iraq war so far amounts to about $3500 per American citizen. Since there is no end in sight you can bet that our tax dollars will be paying for Bush's war for years to come.

[Dan]

11. Anytime your military

refuses to engage...and adopts a fortress mindset, then things are going bad.

Question: are we avoiding conflict because of politics (Bush doesn't want large numbers) until after the election?

Or

Question: refusal to acknowledge that a couple hundred thousand men can't control a nation of twentyfive million.

I suspect that if asswipe is elected - then the young GOPers will get an opportunity to show their love for democracy by getting drafted and dying in Iraq.

God, how I hate Bush.

[amber dog democrat]

12. Starting? When were they going well ?

Its been a screwed up mess from the beginning.
We went in with too few troops, No plan or blueprint on what we were going to do or how to impliment it, no exit strategy and no tactics beyond bombing missions from the air and the occaisional all out assault and pull back.

We have not accomplished much beyond destroying what infrastructure there was, killing thousands of civilians and politically isolating us from much of the rest of the world.

As much at the Bush administration wants to see this in a positive context, the reaity is we are increasingly hated the longer we stay and the more people we kill.

I honestly believe we never had things under control, or if we did it was not for very long. And now we have to face up to the fact that we are going to be militarily defeated - the same way we lost in Vietnam.

You want to blame the president who lied to the American public and got us into an unnecessary and un winnable war under false pretenses.

In my opinon things never were going well.

[Ms. Clio]

13. No, it's not bad at all

It's a catastrophic success.

We have to bomb the village to save it.

[mourningdove92]

17. And we have to bomb people in the vicinity of a burning

bradley to "protect" them.

I'm from the Vietnam generation. Been there, done that, heard it all before. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. As bad as Vietnam was, Iraq will prove to much worse. IMHO

[Ms. Clio]

20. C'mon, they could have hurt themselves trying to get all that super secret

U.S. technology out of that burning vehicle. You just don't understand compassionate conservatism, do you, citizen?

That's so horrifying, considering that something like 3 million Vietnamese people died during that war, right?

[Hello_Kitty]

14. Their neo-con utopia in the desert hasn't quite panned out for them. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

19. The Crackhead In Chief says everything is going swell over there

So thats that.

Don

[karlrschneider]

21. Well, we (the coalition of the billing) have control of the Green Zone.

I guess that's -something-...but let's see --- the entire nation was without electricity for a whole day, which is slightly worse than the normal situation where they have it for 4 to 8 hours a day. The unemployment rate is hovering around 80%. So far, so bad. They are rid of Saddam and now have a USA/CIA-appointed "Prime Minister" who nobody supports, the streets of most of the major cities are knee-deep in sewage, ordinary citizens don't dare venture outside their homes after dark for fear of being shot by: {take your pick: US Forces, US-appointed/trained 'police', "insurgents", or anybody who thinks their neighbors is supporting any of the aforementioned}

And then there's the Kurdish area in the north which doesn't like any of the others, which are

The Sunnis in the middle (the group oppressed for centuries but got power mostly thanks to Saddam and are now highly pissed off)

And the Shia who have millions of compatriots throughout the mideast.

I am rambling here, I know, but it seems to be a great recipe for catastrophe.

[carpetbagger]

22. Well, we're in Vietnam around late 1965.

We have the wolf by the ears on this one.

[Bozita]

26. On Nightline, John Burns (NYT) said things are getting worse

Burns is no Judith Miller. I believe him.

[Carla in Ca]

27. Quote today to NBC News.

McCAIN SAYS "WE'RE NOT WINNING" IN IRAQ

[TrogL]

28. CBC interview with captured (and released) Canadian journalist

He said things are completely out of control in several cities. The US military has no idea what's going on. The Iraqi police and military are turning a blind eye to everything that's going on and even helping the rebels (or whatever we're calling them).

[AntiFascist]

29. What scares me is when....

high ranking military people start coming forward and complaining about how a majority of Shiites are now turning against us. It's one thing to see isolated reports of angry Iraqis after an incident, but now we are hearing it from the people in charge.

[Disturbed]

32. Confusion

There are Sunnis that are fighting, al Sadr's Malitia, al Zargawi's fighters, some from outside of Iraq, and Iraqis that are just fed up. The resistance has been called Insurgency, terrorists, rebels and other names. If the majority of the Shi'ites get fed up, it's all over for the Occupation.

The more that the US and it's coalition kill and destroy the more the resistance will grow, not diminish. This war (on) Iraq is a loser.

Kerry should get his head on straight. Announce that he was wrong about Iraq and staying the course and that he will pull the troops out in a few months after he is in office.

Proceed with the flaming.

[leesa]

33. You're joking, right?

It has never been 'in control' for even one minute. They want us out NOW.

[Rockholm]

34. Iraq was out of control from day one.

BushCo has run this war/operation/occupation against know military practices. He did id his way. Not the way that a real military commander would have done it.

[IrateCitizen]

35. Major news outlets are starting to turn on the occupation

I believe that Newsweek recently printed that things aren't as bad in Iraq as most people here in the States believe -- they're WORSE.

I heard a correspondent for ABC News the other night saying that the US casualty rates are rising, that the insurgency is growing, and that they are becoming more brazen and more sophisticated in their resistance with each passing day.

Neither of those sound like ringing endorsements for the way things are going over there. Sad thing is, our "leaders" won't admit this until the streets of Baghdad, Tikrit, Mosul and Najaf are literally flowing with blood. According to them, we have to "stay there and win".

How in the fuck do you "win" something that is totally unwinnable?

[goodhue]

36. Starting?!

Things have really been going very bad for a long time now; and they are getting much worse. US presence is counterproductive.

[amber dog democrat]

37. Well there's your answer.

Thank you for posing the question. Good Thread.