*Please* promise me that you won't blame the troops for this war

[Mara Steele]

*please*

they are victims, like everyone else...

*please,* they will be dealing with enough shit when they come back, to also deal with the anti-war crowd's misdirected rage...

and if you can, thank our new generation of veterans for their service -

for they have served honorably in a noble institution; but they are being misused by their government, and forced to deal with an insane situation...

do i have your word?

thank you...

[Lefta Dissenter]

1. I don't know ANYONE

who is anything but supportive of the troops.

edited to add: my new bumperstickers say, "Support Our Troops - VOTE KERRY"

edited again to add that despite the fact that I was raised by two anti-war activists, we have NEVER criticized the troops - only the morAns who started the wars.

[Mara Steele]

4. that's good

i felt some anger among theatre patrons when i went to see "Control Room" the other day and it made me uneasy... the troops really do come across in a bad light but they are only victims too...

[the Kelly Gang]

2. I think you are right..don't let them try to taint our opposition with

claims you do not support the troops. You should express support for them loudly and often ..it's the correct and honest thing to do.

[anti_shrub]

3. Listening to too much talk radio?

I've never known anti war types to blame the troops outside of the fantasy world RW talk show hosts live in.

[Mara Steele]

7. I DON'T think this is common among thinking people

but there are unthinking people everywhere...

[jdj]

31. You know, I take issue with this assertion for several reasons.

There are good troops, and their are troops like the story posted here the other day, where the soldier said that every Iraqi he had killed deserved to die.

This is the philosophy we have to fight, and there are soldiers who raped and tortured children in those prisons, and sorry, but I don't think of them as victims of anything but a deranged political philosophy, one which they will continue to carry despite all evidence that they have been misinformed, and one which other people will continue to suffer and die for. It actually is irrevelant whether people who feel this way are military or milkmen, we have to fight this philosophy on all fronts. I begged my ex not to join the military, which she did when Clinton was in office, because I knew if Bush won we would be at war one way or another. But she went anyway, and now she is going to Kuwait, and I hope and pray she will not have to take anyone's life.

I resent the whole tone of this post actually..."blame the troops" this is just right-wing bullshit.

[annxburns]

5. OF COURSE NOT!

They are heros. It is not their fault Chimpy is abusing them.

KERRY WAS A WAR HERO. So was Clark. So was Hagel and McCain (two relatively honest repubs). Military experience always gives you a better perspective on war and peace.

I honor the sacrifice of those men and women. They have to (HAVE TO) obey the CinC no matter how stupid he is.

[mmonk]

6. Who is blaming the troops?

They didn't decide this policy. We are on a bad course and I'm afraid more of them will die. Accountability for this stops with this administration.

[progressivebydesign]

8. I don't blame the troops for the war..

That is Bush and the PNACs responsibility. Having said that, if the evidence supports it, I think, as in Vietnam, scorn should be heaped upon the military personnel who abuse and kill out of racism, frustration, hate, and ignorance, however. Those who are doing a job, and doing it was instructed, will not be criticized by me. The ones that commit atrocities, are another thing altogether... No sane person would agree to overlook those things.

I am glad that people are willing to join the armed forces, for the protection of our Country. That is what they are for.. that they are misused in pre-emptive attacks.. well, that is BUSH'S fault!

[AlCzervik]

9. I have a troop over there and i would never

blame them, so many are there because it's a way to pay for college and a chance for a better life. I blame Bush and Cheney.

[Catch22Dem]

10. Why would you feel the need to post this?

Have you gotten this impression from somewhere on DU? There are tons of DU veterans. I'm even aware of some DU vets who took part in this war (and Afghanistan too.)

I certainly appreciate your sentiment, though.

[Mara Steele]

11. no, not from DU

but from comments I hear here and there, particularly at the movie theatre the other day. nothing extreme, but there is i think a certain combination of insensitivity and anger that it is easy to misdirect...

[Nimrod]

12. I know two soldiers personally who I'll blame

They're the ones who said something to the general effect of "Cool, we get to go shoot those goddamn diaperheads."

That is not serving honorably. That is being fucking stupid, and they and any others with that attitude should be held fully accountable, mocked, ridiculed, and cast out.

Everybody else, no.

[DrWeird]

13. Can't promise that.

I can't accept "I was just following orders" as an excuse.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

44. On the nose. Sadly, our children are complicit. Face it. Or have more war.

Yes our troops are victims who deserve welcoming, healing, and justice for their sacrifices.

BUT there is more to face up to PREVENT the horrors they both experienced and inflicted on others. We must face our mistaken trust in the White House and Pentagon.

This is the scam:

By enshrining our troops as heroic, legitimacy trickles up to the war criminals who give the orders. That's why 'Support Our Troops' will always work to the advantage of the war-mongers. Once they have OUR LOVED ONES CARRYING OUT their crimes against humanity, we also become complicit as we root for our loved one's safety at the expense of 'the enemy.'

The bandage of rhetoric covers up the horror of open wounds and causes even more wounds.

Unless we face up to the fact that our children/troops were duped into carrying out murder and torture on a large scale, it will happen again and again.

This thread topic illustrates exactly how ATROCITY is perpetuated from war to war with the RHETORIC OF HEROICS AND INNOCENCE when speaking of our children as they pull the trigger on poor people overseas.

When we all can face this cold hard truth, both as a veteran of war yourself or as a civilian spectator who sympathizes in anguish, then parents will raise their children/future soldiers to demand to know what they are doing and
NOT FOLOLOW AN ILLEGITIMATE CHAIN OF COMMAND
INTO AN ILLEGAL IMMORAL WAR
AND DISREGARD THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS.

We are all raised from birth in a lie matrix that exploits our fear and ignorance so that we can be conned into killing off the market competition for THE BOSS. We can only make choices based on the info we have which is carefully kept from us. I know that. 'Our' troops are uninformed youth filled with hostility and aching for revenge against people they don't understand. That is a horrible mindset when heavily armed. 'OUR' TROOPS ARE CARRYING OUT GLOBAL LYNCHING FOR DICK CHENEY.

We must face that OUR CHILDREN ARE KILLING OTHER CHILDREN AND THAT IS NOT HEROIC.

How many Vietnams must our children inflict on the world before 'our' troops learn that the chain of command is corrupt, incompetent, and genocidal, NOT the puffy rhetoric sung about in the national anthems?

Cue the CSNY song 'Teach Your Children Well.'

[Booster]

14. You have my word because my nephew is over there

and I know what a fine man he is and would never hold him or anyone in the service responsible for the orders they are given. Like my nephew said "it's my job" and I would venture to guess that all of us have had to do something at work that we were told to do that just went against our grain, but we did it. Servicemen and women are the most honorable among us and should be welcomed home as such.

[noahmijo]

15. I don't know any sane normal person who is blaming the troops

for doing their job.

Anyone who would blame the troops for anything short of gleefully taking part in torture is a fucking piece of shit in my eyes who needs to see what it's like to have to join the military in order to afford college and then be shipped off to some hellhole for the lies of greedy old men.

[George_S]

16. They deserve massive amounts of respect

And being there is not their fault at all. No reason to blame them.

[Bluebear]

17. I blame one delusional monkey and his enablers/controllers, period.

I know too many people who signed up for the Guard hoping to assist people after a tornado and now they've been over there for a year and a half. Not their fault where they are sent, they are the heroes.

[George_S]

24. "They"...

... does not include the Swift Boat Vets for "Truth."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Oh stop it. Go spend some time at Camp Pendleton and tell me that.

I've supported AND entertained the military since the 1980's. I saw Marines off to Gulf War 1...I shared the stage with the most decorated living Marine...Col JJ Barrett.

I've had EXCELLENT conversations with high ranking officers, but the conversation I had a couple weeks ago with a made me CRINGE. These KIDS want to go to IRaq because they can make more money IN IRAQ and then come home and buy the SUVS with the 120o rims....they're WANTING to go KILL so they can come home and BUY things and YOU are going to question OUR morals?

[Renew Deal]

21. I hate to say it

but one of my friends went there just for the money. I doubt that he wants to kill anyone, but the money was a big thing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Exactly...and this is the FIRST time in all my history of being

around Marines and the Navy that I've EVER heard anyone in the armed forces state they want to go kill for the money...yeah...you doubt he wants to kill anyone but if the reality of war is that he WILL kill and he wants to go for the money..then ergo he WANTS to kill for money...no different than the MOB....and I am one who DOES support the military...even a General's WIFE commented to me about how ridiculous it was that enlistees were making these statements..>A GENERAL's own WIFE was flabberghasted at the mentality.

[bigpathpaul]

19. ‘It’s my personal belief we went over there for the wrong reasons’

This is from my local newspaper. It's definitely worth reading (You'll need to register on the site to view it):

http://www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12954828&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=517515&rfi=8&xb=xabep

[Renew Deal]

20. I never even thought of that.

We all know that they didn't put themselves there.

[LibertyorDeath]

23. I'm sure all the Mothers Brothers Grandparents Friends & Relatives

of the thousands up on thousands of INNOCENT DEAD Iraqi Men Women & Children have a different perspective on this.

The Men & Women of the American Military Did not start the Illegal occupation of Iraq.

They did not start the War.

They prosecute the War. They are a powerful force being used for an evil purpose.

I'm sure many of them do not want to be there.

I understand your point it's just hard to reconcile it with so many dead
Iraqi civilians.

[MountainLaurel]

28. But

They're just brown-skinned heathens that died. All those dead Iraqi babies are just terrorists in the making. . .

(sarcasm off)

A bumper sticker I saw yesterday described it well: "We're making terrorists faster than we can kill them."

[Qanisqineq]

25. I sure as hell won't

and I don't think most would blame the troops. But, you get those people that speak to 2 or 5 or 10 soldiers/marines who happen to be pricks. Suddenly, the person thinks ALL the troops have exactly the same mindset as those few. Seems to me, the only conversations these people remember with troops are the conversations they can use to stereotype. Kinda like the bad apples at Abu Ghraib... they were only a handful out of how many hundreds of thousands of troops that have gone through Iraq since 2003 but they are the only troops you hear about or remember.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK ALREADY

Are there pricks in the military? YES. Are there pricks on DU? I'm sure there are. Does that make everyone on DU a prick? HELL NO, not by a long shot.

My husband had to reenlist today so he could AVOID going BACK to Iraq after returning only a little over 6 months ago. Sure, he could eventually go back but there are other options to try to get out of going before that happens. If he didn't reenlist, he'd be transferred to a different unit and I'd be waving good-bye to him in the next couple of weeks.

Nobody he works with wants to shoot anyone. No one he works with wants to go back to Iraq. There are a few Republicans that he works with and guess what? THEY ARE NOT GOING TO VOTE. They don't like Kerry but they also don't want to vote for Bush.

CAN WE STOP THE STEREOTYPING ONCE AND FOR ALL?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. It wasn''t a stereotype and it wasn't two or five or ten

I have worked in a military community for years..heck. I'd bet even your husband has never seen such a mindless group as the latest group of grunts.

I don't know if you were referencing my post above but in 20 years around the military, I've never seen such gung ho mindlessness.

I am sorry for the raw deal your husband and others are getting..the reenlist deal amounts to extortion..."reenlist or we'll send you over with a group that doesn't care if you get killed" was, in essence the threat.

My only point is that whether one is FORCED to follow the CIC, one CAN think for themselves and these kids aren't even doing THAT.

BTW..I have NO intention of blaming the troops...I simply thought the OP was a bit melodramatic in its appeal.

[Qanisqineq]

33. I wasn't referencing your post above, but

it did hit a nerve because it is similar to what I hear day in and day out. So no, I wasn't trying to take out all my frustration on you! I'm not going to apologize for the assholes in the military... I'm not exactly one of those gung ho military wives (I can't exactly explain what I mean) -- I don't have stickers all over my car, I don't sign my emails "proud army wife", and I don't know a single other military wife -- but I hate when some people like to label all the troops as "repukes" or people that like to kill.

In reference to your question, my husband doesn't run into many, if any, soldiers that feel that way. I wonder, is it differences between the branches (army vs. marines)? They were happy to get the money the first time they went to Iraq, but they were all told this would be a cakewalk. They don't want to go back. Perhaps it is differences in ages, too. My husband has been in 9 years and is in his 30's. Most of the soldiers he works with and that we know personally are in their mid-20's or older.

As for the reenlist deal... it sucks beyond words. He is supposed to get promoted next month and if he hadn't reenlisted today (even though he had 2 full years left on his contract), they would have taken that away and sent him ASAP to Iraq. He is scheduled to go back to Iraq anyway, but at least it is almost a year away and he is trying a few things to get out of it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. Well they do call the Marine's the "president's branch"

but I didn't want to offend you or make you think I was passing judgement on ALL troops..I do know they aren't ALL any way..but so many are so damn brainwashed...especially the young 'uns. Again, the stark contrast to me was in hearing the whispers of the families of the higher ranking officers.

At any rate, I would never blame a war on the troops and as I said the OP just struck a bit of a raw nerve after having this experience recently.

Again, real sorry about your husband's deal.

[Eloriel]

26. Never, never, never

That may be the ONE lesson we ended up having actually learned from Vietnam. :-(

[frank frankly]

29. you've got my word

i agree completely.

[Ilsa]

30. I heard someone this morning on CSPAN who sounded unsupportive

She was a RW'er who mouthed off about how all the soldiers are volunteers, and there is no conscription in today's army as if that makes the deaths easier or something. It was freaking unbelieveable to hear.

Fortunately a mother called to report on the back door draft and the coercion being used to force soldiers into re-upping for another three or they'll be transferred to another unit and sent to Iraq pronto.

[jdj]

32. "She was a RW'er "

well, is that not ironic?

[leesa]

35. Why would anyone do that?

Rather condescending if you ask me. Have you been watching too much teevee that is providing you with pre-packaged ideas about liberals and progressives.

I am very insulted by this.

[Mara Steele]

36. why would you be insulted?

i wasn't directing this at anyone in particular on these boards, but rather at a general public who may be reading it, in response to some comments i have heard in the "real world' that strike me as insensitive and cynical...

i was having some anxiety, leesa, about the issue. i needed some reassurance that the troops will get a sensitive homecoming. i realize that to many, this post seems like stating the obvious, but i wanted some reassurance.

not intended to insult, or condescend, anyone...

[WLKjr]

37. I don't blame them and here's why

I know they do what they are told, and that is exactly what they do.

I blame the ones who tell them to do it. Those are the ones you have to watch and put blame on.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. not to be a bitch but why do i have to promise you that?

or anyone else...i dont believe anyone is blaming the troops...americans have learnt from viet-nam....still i do not think its appropriate to ask adult to behave themselves and promise to do so.

just my opinion.

[0007]

39. The troops are paid assassins, the mercenaries are the scum of the

world and America should be outraged that we have over 30,000 of these cretins in Iraq.

If the troops all laid down their arms, I'd love 'em even more!

Fight to bring the troops home, not to stay to course to further destruction and debt.

[bloom]

40. I think people need to be accountable for their choices/actions

I think everyone in the military will have to accept responsibility for what they have done - or they can try to live in denial.


I do not believe in the glorification of death and destruction.


Necessary self-defense on an individual or national scale is one thing. This is something else. I will not support it.

That does not mean that I will actively protest individuals - but I won't go around glorifying anyone, either.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

41. Every citizen who supports Bush

Military or not, they deserve the blame.

I won't treat soldiers any different from anyone else. If they spew racist Republican hate bullshit, I will not support them, and if they act like human beings, I will.

I am worried about this army coming home. Worried about young people returning to society after being programmed as killers and given highly addictive drugs by the military. The violence on our streets came from the jungles of Vietnam, and it will be even worse with this new generation.

My support for the individuals in the military depends on their ability, INDIVIDUALLY, to become conscious of reality.

I am against the war on drugs, by the way, and I do NOT support the cops. Not as people, not as public servants, not in any way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i agree with this

while in general i feel bad about people in the military, if they support bush, they deserve my disrespect.

[crispini]

43. They are individuals.

I promise not to get into knee-jerk soldier-despising, and to treat everyone as individuals.

Start making remarks about "towelheads" and you immediately get put into the "a**hole" bucket.

I take the same tactic with RWers, btw.

[grace0418]

45. I don't think anybody would

blame the troops as a whole for what has happened. At least not anyone with a brain and a conscience. Many soldiers are victims of circumstance. Especially now-days. The military is sometimes the only option for people who are too poor or don't have the grades to go to college, or who live in economically depressed areas with no jobs.

And then there are many soldiers who feel a very honorable call to serve their country. They didn't think they were going to be used by BushCo they way they have been. Who could've imagined in their wildest nightmares that an American administration would be so callous about the lives of so many man and women? As much as I detested Bush and was devastated by his theft of the presidency, I never thought he would be THAT brazen, malicious, and greedy to send soldiers to their deaths so he could make a pile of money.

These soldiers are just trying to do their jobs and serve their country. They don't deserve our blame, nor do I think they receive it.

However, there are some soldiers who are sick people. Soldiers who joined the service because they were hoping to get to kill some people. It almost doesn't matter who they are or whether we have a legitimate beef with them. They are the enemy and these soldiers are perfectly willing to blow their heads off. My dad served with a few guys like that.

But as sick as these soldiers are, I still do not blame them for the war in Iraq. That rests squarely on BushCo, and the media for fanning the flames.