Canada public health care system in crisis--what is the real story?

[antigop]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14352624.htm

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Canada often boasts its universal health care program shows it is more caring than the United States, but the system is creaking alarmingly, with long wait lists for treatment, and shortages of cash and doctors.

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Comments, anyone?

What is the real story?

[Zell in Hell]

1. Underfunding and too much bureaucracy...

The usual crap.

My town used to have like 3 different hospital boards for 46,000 people.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

4. Which town was this?

[wurzel]

2. Would the Canadians change their system for ours? I doubt it!

And that is the bottom line.

[Spazito]

3. Our system needs tweaking, there is no question...

but, in crisis, NOT!

The premiers are wanting more money which is par for the course, they always want MORE money regardless of whether it will help or not. This article quotes the Frazer Institute, a rabid right wing organization that wants to privatize our Medicare system for it's corporate supporters. The article is very misleading which is not surprising seeing who this writers sources are.

Edited to add: here is a link to a more credible source, the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/09/15/health_summit040915.html

[CanSocDem]

5. Better that the administrators are talking to each other....

....than meeting secretly with 'outside agitators'. Y'know....like pharmaceutical companies and the rest of the medical industrial complex.

[librechik]

17. Canadian lawmakers are being "got to"

it took the right wing in the US almost 3o years to make an appalling mess out of government-aided health care projects, killing any hope of getting universal health care. Hope they DONT succeed in Canada like they did here!

[antigop]

8. thanks (n/t)

[Ravenseye]

6. I don't know...

I'm not a Canadian obviously, but I've spent time in the great white north.

I was particularly struck one time about ten years ago when I was hitchhiking from Cape Breton Island down to Halifax, and got a ride with a couple of traveling salesmen. They were particularly down on the health care system at that time. Long waits for care, etc. We had an interesting ride.

When you look at our system versus universal systems, the main thing you notice is how different they operate and how much room they give doctors. Doctors stoping surgery's for lunch. Doctors punching out for their 8 hour day even if there is a rush on the emergency room.

I have family that lives in a few different countries where they have universal, and there definately are waits for non-urgent care. As long as you're not dying on the table, you'll have to wait.

I wonder though if this is more because of stricter labor rules they apply to doctors, and not enough doctors themselves than it is letting everyone get health care.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. I should have stopped reading at "I'm not a Canadian obviously"

Your informed opinion of the Canadian Health Care system comes from a ride you hitched with travelling salesmen?

Stopping surgery for lunch?

This is nonsense.

[antigop]

9. if you have any info, I'd appreciate it

I'm trying to find out the REAL story here.

You have to wait for a specialist in the US too.

Has anybody looked into what percentage of Canadian GDP their healthcare system is compared to the US?

I don't have time to research right now.

ANY info would be appreciated.

[Ravenseye]

11. Here's a Link

I read about it in a book initially but...

http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

"The study puts the administrative cost of the U.S. system at $294 billion per year, compared to about $9.4 billion in Canada. That translates to a per-person cost of $1,059 in the U.S. and $307 in Canada. A similar study, conducted in 1991, put per-capita costs in the U.S. at $450 and Canadian costs at one-third of that."

We spend three times as much as they do in Canada per person. Yet they're all covered. Regardless of how conveininet the coverage is there, at least they won't be bankrupted if they get ill.

I'm just wondering what kind of universal system we'd have here in the US if we still paid 3 times as much as Canada, or other Universal Systems...Seems to me we'd have the best health care in the world.

[Nadienne]

21. Good information!

Thanks for posting the link!

"The study by Dr. Steffi Woolhandler of the Harvard School of Medicine found that Americans spend more on administrative costs because of the many private companies supplying insurance coverage. The multitude of companies create increased paperwork while Canadian doctors send their claims to a single insurer, the government."

Private companies also have profit margins and shareholders to protect. That's another reason why privatized health care is so expensive.

[Nadienne]

23. I should add that another expense of the private system

is lobbying expenses.

We are paying for a lot of stuff that doesn't necessarily improve our quality of health care.

[Ravenseye]

10. Maybe you should have read further...

that was one anecdote, not the whole point.

I have FAMILY that live in mulitple countries with universal health care, which perhaps I should have been more specific about. Canada, England, Australia, Germany...to name a few.

I've lived or stayed in all those countries for extended periods of time with these family members. I've had to use the health systems in those countries more than once myself, personally.

And no it's not nonsense. That's happened in England. I know from the experience of one of my grandfather's who lives there.

Ok fine it's hearsay. My grandfather who lives in england told me about one of the men from his church who was left 'under' during a surgery while the surgeons got a bite to eat, outside the hospital.

Sorry I didn't qualify myself, but I wasn't talking about ONLY the candian system, but universal systems in general.

You're nonsense.

[kerrywins]

12. I'm sure it happens in America too...

people have to wait here for surgeries...

[Ravenseye]

14. Thats true...

...but I doubt that it happens as often here. If you can pay, they'll cut you. My Uncle had some sort of Stomach issue that while it wasn't killing him was VERY painful. Anyway they made him wait over 3 months from when they diagnosed he'd need surgery to correct it, till he could have the surgery. It was the soonest open slot. So he lived in what he termed 'agony' for months till he could get the surgery.

Another example with my grandfather was with his hearing aid. He was definately deaf, he went to the ear doctor or whatever, and they did testing. Sure enough, he needs a hearing aid. I could have told you that without a doctor, because he would get on his hands and knees by the stereo speaker to listen to the BBC with the volume turned up. Big shock.

Anyway he waited over a year for his hearing aid. Think that'd happen here in the states?

Remmeber. I'm not saying we shouldn't have Universal Health Care. I'm all for it. I'm just for doing it better.

[kerrywins]

16. there are people here

who wait months for surgery....tests are done....which you have to wait for.....to get an open slot...
you know how long you have to wait in america just to see a specialist anymore?

[Ravenseye]

22. I've honestly never had a problem

What specialists in particular take time? Granted I'm not plagued with every ailment known to man, but in the past say five years I've had to see 3 different specialists. Alergy, I'm forgetting the word now but the Knee doctor...bones and joints guy, and dermatologist.

All pretty common specalists probably, but I've not had to wait to see them, all within a week just scheduling an apointment, the dermatologist I got to go that same day.

I can understand though people might wait for a pretty rare specialist.

[Spazito]

13. I can give you a personal experience, not a hearsay one...

I was in a car accident while visiting in another province, I was not hurt badly yet was able to get medical attention within 20 minutes of arriving at the hospital. Once I returned home, I was able to get followup treatment right away and, again, I was not badly hurt.

I pay $56.00 a month and am fully covered. I do NOT have to mortgage my house or claim bankruptcy to pay hospital bills.

Hearsay is exactly that, hearsay. To use hearsay about England's coverage to post on a thread asking about Canadian Medicare is disingenuous to say the least, imo.

[Ravenseye]

19. Whats with the 56 bucks a month?

How can they say that we pay 3 times as much a month here in the US? That has to be an average, but I don't buy it.

For my family coverage I pay over 900 a month here in the US. If I was on a single plan I think it'd be about 300. Single with children is 600. It actually would be cheaper for my wife to be a single with children and me to be a single than it is for a family, but whatever it's only a couple bucks.

Anyway my point is that makes it seem like the difference is in fact much greater.

[Nadienne]

Group plans - like through places of employment

can get lower rates. Not everyone here pays the same amt for insurance.

[Spazito]

25. I agree, the difference does seem to be greater than 3 times....

and your 300.000 would equate to 450.00 Canadian using last years value. I am assuming the 3 times the cost aspect was from last year. If one puts the value at today's dollar difference, it would be 300.00 x 1.32 which is 396.00 Canadian.

[yvr girl]

34. Medical Expenditure in Canada

Everyone in Canada is covered under their provincial medical plan. There is a premium to be paid for that. It can either be paid by the individual or by their employer. Most employers pay it on your behalf and then deduct a portion from your paycheque. (Usually half) We also generally get supplemental insurance, which is optional, offered by our employers. The extra insurance covers things like dental, glasses, prescriptions, physio, chiropracters etc. This premium is usually split between the employer and employee as well.

Premiums do not account for all the money spent on healthcare. Hospitals are not businesses here. They are funded by the government as well. They are given a yearly budget. They need to buy equipment, pay for administrative costs etc.

Medical care also costs less in Canada than in does in America. There is no profit factor here. Medical care is a service, not a business. We also do not have huge malpractise expenses or lobbyists to pay for.

My parents were in Arizona for the winter. A medical condition of my dad's acted up (intestinal disorder.) He went to the doctor in Yuma. They wanted to send him to a specialist in Phoenix. He asked how much it was going to cost. I don't remember the figure, but I know that my dad almost choked on the amount. He was covered, but he couldn't stomach the expense. He called BC medical, and told him of the situation. They ended up flying him home (with a nurse), treating him in a hospital at home for a week, and flying him back to Arizona. It cost only a fraction of the amount to do this.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

15. People love to make up stories about the health profession.

It fulfills some human need, I guess. Most of them are urban myths and foaflore, or just downright lies.

[Ravenseye]

18. No need to make up stories...

..when you have experienced real ones.

Look for every 'negative' story I have, I'll fully admit that I have at least two positive ones. It's just that sometimes when a story is negative it seems a hell of a lot more important than that time everything went smoothly.

Are you implying that I'm making up stories?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

20. I'm not implying you are making up stories.

Of course, you could be. How would I know?
People love to exaggerate their problems, to inflate their feelings of self-importance, to feel better, to try and come across as a more interesting person than they are. Stories like 'the surgeons broke for lunch' are almost always bullshit.

[Ravenseye]

24. What about the guy...

up in Boston who went to the Bank and ran errands during the surgery? That one bullshit? That was just last year or the year before, and in this country no less. It was all over the news.

In fact my sister was in an accident in Boston shortly after that, and she has the same attorney who is representing the guy left on the operating table.

I'd agree though. they're almost always bullshit. Personally I've had multiple knock me out surgeries. Honestly I wouldn't care if they took a quick break during. It'd probably be good for them to just walk around for a few minutes and relax. As long as i came out all right.

[sadiesworld]

31. A few months ago a story was reported here in the US about a surgeon

who left his patient on the table to go do some banking. Apalling, but irrelevant to the question of the quality of healthcare in the US.

Also, I can imagine that a surgeon might leave the operating room long enough to shove a sandwich down his/her throat during a 15 hour surgery.

Your allegation is meaningless, even if true.

Now, if you want to point to some sort of study which shows that Canadian surgeons regularly break for lunch during surgeries w/o a competent physician remaining in the OR...I'm all eyes.

Otherwise, this just sounds like more RW scare tactics.

[Selwynn]

26. I'd take the candadian system over this one any day.

Canadian system - has problems, and is three times cheaper
US system - has worse problems, and is three times as expensive.

[Selwynn]

28. I doubt its about quality coverage - its about political opportunists

It is really hard to get the straight dope on stuff like this, because there is so much politics wrapped up in it. There is obviously a clear agenda in conservatives who would want to privatize the system and do away with it. There would be a lot of money in that. One of the ways you do that is to keep repeating the "the health care system is in crisis" phrase over and over.

Now, I'm not saying the system doesn't have problems - all systems have problems. The real question is what system has the right problems, and the problems that come from doing what is just and proper, or the problems we are best equipped to handle. I would take a health care system that guarantees medical services to all and is three times cheaper than a health care system so outrageously expensive that half the population can't afford it. Even with problems, I would rather work on those problems that use it as an excuse to scrap the system as some would.

[Blue Wally]

27. If you analyze it from a logical point of view........

If something is essentially "free" or already paid for, the demand will be infinite (ever watched people at an "all you can eat" buffet?). The "supply" paid for by taxes is finite. Add in the fact there there would be no incentive for the providers to maximize their efforts and you get something like the DMV. In the military health care is "free" (though Congress factors in the value when setting pay rates) and you have tremendously crowded waiting rooms and long waits for appointments.

[Selwynn]

29. And that remains better than our system.

Isn't that sad?

[Spazito]

30. Canadians overwhelmingly support our universal healthcare...

they want it improved not tossed.

It is easy to reduce waiting times if you exclude millions from coverage as is done in the US, Canadians chose not to do that and are willing to pay through their taxes so that ALL have access.

[ret5hd]

33. That's not a logical point of view at all...

comparing healthcare to a buffet is not a valid comparison. A much better comparison would be the fire or police departments. A lunch buffet is something that people "want" more of. Healthcare, police and fire departments are something that people "want" when they need it, but would just as soon not need.

[SoCalDem]

32. Acute care is usually available ANYWHERE (civilized)

it's the PAYMENT part that always get you..:)

Never fear, young ones, soon enough, we Boomers will have made our way through the beast, and then there will be PLENTY of health care for the rest of you, and probably price wars too :)

All this Sturm & Drang is because the largest demographic group ever is aging, and even though "everyone knew about us", the pols now act as if we all "snuck up on them".. We paid "extra" at every turn because we were told that we needed to , so that there would be "enough" for us as we aged.. Moral of the story: Never trust a politician.

We could have had socialized medicine AGES ago, and should have, but the big shots in DC wanted all that money for pet projects like War and such..

The powers that be, here would like nothing better than to see the demise of Canada's system. It makes our guys look bad.. There have been conservative "pressures" for a long time , to undermine the Liberal programs that make Canada a decent place to live..

Keep fighting them off, or you guys will end up like us..Sick and Broke

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. Some universal health care systems do have problems

eg Britain.

Just on the news: women in Cardiff are having to wait 17 weeks to get a mammogram after they go to their family doctor with a lump in their breast. That is totally unacceptable. Someone in administration, or government policy, needs a smack in the face to get them to send patients like that to any hospital in the country that can take them!

[TrogL]

36. I use the Canadian Health care system

I live near a big city and spend a lot of time there. My partner has medical issues so I spend a lot of time hanging out in hospitals and clinics. My father was seriously ill and recently passed away.

Here's what I pay for health care, right off my pay stub.

Employer Paid Deductions
Description Amount
Enhanced Prescription Drug Fam 42.50
Enhanced Dental Plan Family 80.00
Enhanced Extended Medical Fam 11.10
Alberta Health Care Family 44.00

Employee After-Tax Deductions
Description Amount
Enhanced Prescription Drug Fam 67.50
Enhanced Dental Plan Family 34.00
Enhanced Extended Medical Fam 31.30
Alberta Health Care Family 44.00

Prescriptions I pay 20%, no limit.
Regular dentistry I pay 20% reasonable limits.
Fancy dentistry I pay 50% reasonable limits.
Regular health care I pay zippo, nothing, nada.
There are minor charges for crutches, casts - waaaaay below cost.
Some dentists extra-bill - your mileage varies.

Basically, it breaks down to necessary and elective. Necessary stuff is free or inexpensive, the price goes up when you get into elective stuff.

Here's a typical example.

I had a cyst growing behind one ear. I had three regular doctor's visits where we looked at it and talked about it. Eventually, I was sent to a plastic surgeon to have something done about it. It took me a month to get in. He removed it and sent it off to the lab. My total cost - $0.00 on regular coverage.

I've got some moles growing on my back that have increased in size. I've had three doctor's visits to look at them. Cost so far, zero. However, since in the two doctors' opinions they're benign, to have them removed is considered elective surgery and would NOT be free.

Last night, my partner's back pain was majorly acting up so we dropped by emerge to see what was wrong. They did an x-ray, a doctor looked at them and gave him a shot of something-or-other. Total cost - zero. Half hour wait in the waiting room, 10 minute wait on the ward, got right into X-ray, another 15-minute wait for the doctor to interpret the X-rays, 5 minutes for the nurse to show up with the shot and we were out of there.

Another time, he had a massive allergic reaction to something and bloated up and started wheezing. As the hospital was right down the street, I drove him into emerge and yelled for somebody to help with a breathing problem. He was seen literally instantly. They sent me over to the desk to confirm his Health Care information - it's all online. By the time that was done, he'd already had a shot, he was on oxygen and they were hooking up a monitor. Total cost - zip.

One time, I was visiting somebody in the hospital and suddenly felt faint and keeled over right in the middle of the hall. A nurse yelled something, then the PA announced something, and then I was surrounded by people, put on a gurney, rushed down to emerge and put on a bunch of monitors. Wait time - I didn't even hit the floor.

My father had a major stroke and was in and out of hospital. He had home care and there were a bewildering number of people in and out of the house doing things. The only major cash outlay was for someone to come in and help with his bath (<$50 /week) and some time spent in a nursing home when my mother got too ill to deal with him (~$2000/month). She also had to rent wheelchairs and stuff but this was all subsidized.

There are only two scenarios where I see major wait times. My partner goes to a clinic that's open all sorts of crazy hours. It's one of the few clinics that keeps mad hours, so it tends to be busy after 8 p.m. It can take up to two hours to see a doctor. Nevertheless, were I to keel over in the waiting room, I'd been seen immediately. If someone were to walk in with a bleeding kid, it would be dealt with immediately.

The other wait time is emergency in peak periods eg. Friday night.

Where a lot of the controversy comes from is elective surgery. For that, you can wait 'til hell freezes over. That's from a lack of surgeons. We lose them to the big bucks in the states. Canada is fast-tracking bringing in qualified people from overseas but there's some resistance to honouring their qualifications. There's also been some kafufle over cancer surgeries. Same issue.