BBV - And so it begins. Hunger strike - John Kenney starving for the vote

[BevHarris]

The lead story tomorrow at BlackBoxVoting.ORG will be a gentleman Andy and I met in New York. He is determined to give his life, if necessary, for democracy.

John Kenney is a man we could not dissuade from his plan. We tried -- but he is convinced that the failure to count paper ballots is a mission worth his life.

He is now four days into his hunger strike, and we have invited his increasingly gaunt self to our press conference in Washington D.C. where we will urge emergency measures to save the vote.

Please visit his web site and send him your support, because no, we tried, everyone's tried, and he won't be talked out of this. He has sought medical advice and is doing this as safely as can reasonably be expected.

His web site: http://www.hungerfordemocracy.org

Our press conference, where we will demonstrate several kinds of central tabulator manipulations, will be a double one -- a small one for A-list press at the Washington Press Club at 9:30 a.m. Sept. 22, and a much larger one -- all activists invited, from Maryland, DC, and Virginia especially -- place to be determined shortly, around 11:30 or noon in DC. We will then present two viable solutions and no, it is NOT too late -- though both parties may be playing the political game of hoping the machines melt down and then doing a litigation feast after the election.

It is NOT too late, and we will fight until the last moment to get safeguards in place beforehand.

If we do not, the damage done to trust in our system may take 100 years to rebuild. We must try to implement solutions BEFOREHAND. If we do not, we may not be able to put Humpty back together again.

John Kenney feels the urgency. Do you?

His is the face the represents the waning of democracy. What he wants:

Five basic elements of voting security:

Poll Book (personal sign in)
Paper ballot
Ballot box (transparent and locked)
Hand Count (of all paper ballots in the ballot box)
Results Posted (prominently displayed at the polling place)

Many of these elements are missing in many of the polling districts and sites across the United States.

Many FOUGHT AND DIED for our right to vote.
John Kenney is fighting, too. What he's doing is tougher than anyone I know has done.

Since he has committed to do this, support him, send the press to him, so that his commitment will have as much effect as possible.



Bev Harris

[DubyaSux]

1. Wow....

...pretty impressive. You've managed to help kill someone with this hysteria.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

3. LOL your gonna be sorry when they decide they don't even need to pretend.

If Democracy dies so does a big part of us.

[BevHarris]

11. Just got back from Florida, where they barely even pretend

It's the most aggressive place I've ever seen about changing the way we vote, ripping away checks and balances as fast as they can.

[cthrumatrix]

13. What can we do about Florida...?

[BevHarris]

5. John Kenney knows: People have died for their right to vote

He believes this is his chance to lay down his life for his country.

We hate the idea of the hunger strike. But if we truly can vote, and our vote truly be counted, perhaps fewer young men will die needlessly.

I notice that the only arguments left for what we have been saying about the loss of our voting system are name-calling.

"cranks"
"hysteria"

When you can't muster the facts, just call people names.

Bev

[B. P. R. D.]

8. Your One To Talk Bev.

Not all of us have forgotten the name calling you did against innocent people.

[BevHarris]

10. The topic is "hysteria" over the vote

If you would like to hijack this thread, please start your own. Discuss whatever you want but you're changing the subject.

What the poster said was "hysteria" in reference to alerts about the voting machines. Argue that one, not something else, at least in this thread.

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. Looks like you are stomping

Sour Grapes...

As much as I would like to engage...take it to another thread.

[TeeYiYi]

16. How dare you? . . .

How dare you attack and insult Bev Harris in her own thread B. P. R. D.? And that goes for you too DubyaSux. Bev Harris is one of the most important political voices to come out of the 20th century and move into the 21st century with the courage and conviction to go after ballot tampering and voter corruption so that your voice, your vote will have meaning some day as opposed to the value of ether it carries now. Unless either one of you is willing to stand up and do something about the 800 lb. gorilla in the room called rigged elections, you need to stand down. Shame on you both. :grr:

TYY

[Boredtodeath]

19. Where is your indignation?

When Bev and Andy besmirch the reputation and professionalism of good people like David Jefferson, Avi Rubin, David Dill, Kim Alexander and Cindy Cohn?

Bev and Andy have a long list of enemies they have brought upon themselves with no validity to their accusations.

[Andy_Stephenson]

21. I have never " besmirched"

Dill, Alexander or Cohn and I dare you to find a post where I have!

I now have 2 sets of documents (from different sources) that raise questions about Jefferson and Rubin. Neither one has repudiated the information. So that, IMHO raises more questions.

But this thread is not about David Jefferson, Avi Rubin, David Dill, Kim Alexander and Cindy Cohn. It is about John Kenney and his fast for fair elections. If you want to discuss that great...otherwise start another thread.

[Boredtodeath]

22. Sorry, but you don't control the conversation

Perhaps, if you want that much control, you should post at your own web site???? You know.....BBV.org.....where you have an unused discussion forum.......hmmmm.....

And, you have besmirched everyone who dares to disagree with you and Bev - just like on this thread.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

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[Boredtodeath]

103. Wow! Just wow.

Please, do that search. Contrary to popular DU belief, informed, intelligent activists have every right to disagree with Bev Harris and her methods.

There are a number of activists on this issue that Bev Harris does a great deal more harm than good on electronic voting.

You are entitled to your opinion as am I. Even IF you'd prefer to act like the right wing and shut me the hell up.

One day, I hope you look in the mirror and see what you have become with this post.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Zorra]

54. Wally? Wally O'Dell? Is that you? n/t

[Zorra]

56. Glenda? Glenda Hood? Is that you? n/t

[alittlelark]

72. Clueless in DU

there may be granite (or marble!!!!) in your future

[Andy_Stephenson]

2. John Kenney

is truly courageous. I hate that the right to vote has once again come down to a hunger strike. I respect John very much for what he is doing and I hope to God Congress does not let him down.

Come on Congress...don't let this man die.

Paper ballots not paper trails...and ummm NOW PLEASE!

[greatauntoftriplets]

4. What a brave man.

Such a sacrifice. I hope he is all right.

[Andy_Stephenson]

6. Me too

I like the guy.

[BeFree]

7. Paper Ballot

Is that too much too ask for? That a paper ballot be used, as it has since this country was founded?

Mr. Kenney is another in a long line of patriots who have sacrificed for this Democratic Republic. He, Bev, etal, deserve our undying support.

=================

One question Bev...... could you tell us what the two options are? Not that most of us don't already know, but it'd be nice to hear exactly what you think.

[BevHarris]

9. We'll lay them out at the press conference.

one is a hybrid solution more palatable to elections officials, who'll have to implement it.

the other: all paper, hand counted at the polls.

[cthrumatrix]

15. I'm for paper and pens and all the time you need to COUNT

14. Hi Bev!

Wow this is a brave thing for him to do. Even when I snuck into meetings of the National Association of Secretaries of State to help crack this mess, I grabbed a bite to eat!

This statement is especially important because Doug Lewis is such a fattie!

Seriously though, like...wow!

Dan S

[stellanoir]

17. saying a prayer for this man John. . .

he is sacrificing his own needs for the most important cause of the maintainance of our democracy. Our right to vote and have our vote be counted is the fundamental right upon which our democracy is currently faltering .

Please. . . if you have any access to him encourage him to at least take liquids during his fast.

Miso soup. . .green tea. . .H2O. . .chlorophyll. . .whatever.

Maximum hydration minimizes long term effects of fasting.

That is for sure.

I wish him well and respect him enormously.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[Andy_Stephenson]

24. I just have one question.

What are you doing to advance the issue?

[DubyaSux]

26. Me?

I'm not bragging about how someone is dying for my "cause". I think that's advancing the issue.

Your "cause" is to get rid of evoting and keep us in the stone age. Your "cause" favors complicated conspiracies with highly skilled people over a system that with the same controls, could be facilitated by 5 year old kids.

Because of your "cause", we could put the current asswipe-in-chief back in office because of dimpled pregnant hanging chads.

I'm trying to become part of the solution, not part of the problem. You may be proud of your activism and that's fine. But your cause is interfering with our ability to get ALL votes counted without undervotes, overvotes, yadda yadda.

Now your cause includes killing people to make a political point.

Congratulations - we'll chalk this up as your first casualty. Where's the address we can send the trophy?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[DubyaSux]

31. Oh gee...

...that hurts. An anonymous internet poster called me, another anonymous internet poster, a name.

As far as who's informed, you couldn't be LESS informed. There has never been one shred of evidence that votes were never counted correctly. NEVER.

There have been problem with the system - people not changing default passwords, not starting the machines up in time, hardware problems, etc. But not counting votes? Please....there have been reports of that happening from places like...say, well....blackboxvoting.com (motto: We're doing this for you - unless we've filed suit for monetary damages against you), but if this could be proven, it would shake the entire industry up. But it hasn't because it's absurd.

If Bev Harris used the same standards for ANY type of voting, we couldn't vote because they'd all be crooked.

[Andy_Stephenson]

33. "There has never been one shred of evidence that votes were never counted

Really? Hmmm...better not tell that to Linda Soubirou. She thinks differently.

"If Bev Harris used the same standards for ANY type of voting, we couldn't vote because they'd all be crooked."

Another BS statement.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

44. Does Bev Harris post anonymously ?!

But you do.

You sound ridiculous.

Maybe you also believe that Bush didn't want to scare the children so he kept reading My Pet Goat.

Paper ballots and pens isn't the stone age if you use a Sharpie.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

46. DubyaSux....

May I ask you a few questions?

In the state of Florida:

1. In 2000 how many total ballots were counted?
2. How many ballots were valid "votes"?
3. How many ballots were "uncounted"?

Which presentation of "the numbers" leads you to beleive that no fraud occurred in that state in that year?

[DubyaSux]

49. Huh?

There was plenty of fraud. There was no SYSTEMATIC fraud. There was no grand conspiracy to get Bush votes.

But you know what else they didn't have? Evoting. That could have cost us the election and thus the reason I am so opposed to this hysteria. Legitimate points are being taken to absurd extremes.

I don't want Bush in office for 10 more minutes - let alone - 4 more years. Paper ballots and punch cards are not the answer. Better checks and balances with an evoting system (where Bev Harris could actually be useful) give us the best shot of winning.

But then Bev Harris couldn't have headlines like this on her website " California BBV Ban Stands".

She doesn't want them better, she wants them gone.

[shraby]

64. Sorry DubyaSux

but with e-voting there are no checks and balances. We just have to depend on faith and faith just doesn't cut it. Give me a paper ballot and a pencil!!!
OR a ballot printout that I can look at and put in a box for future reference.

[Eloriel]

66. FL most certainly DID have "e-voting" in 2000

in some counties. Absolutely. Optical scan by Diebold. (Not sure if ES&S wasn't represented in there somewhere, and maybe even others.)

IN fact, Volusia COunty was the sight of a negative 16,000 votes for Gore (how DOES a candidate get a negative vote count at all, let alone in the thousands?) due to one of those little cards that are so transportable, which card mysteriously disappeared afterwords.

There have been many, many, many documented problems with "e-voting" as you call it, my favorite being the 18,181 votes by which 3 different Repug candates WON in one county (Comal) in TX in 2002. But a bit too much like George Bush's super-teflon coating, "the industry" always seems to explain them away while the press always seems to look the other way instead of actually doing some research and figuring it the hell out.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

83. Who needs a "conspiracy"?

There was a reason why I asked those specific questions.

If the votesheep don't know the facts, it is a simple matter to herd them to their cherished sets of belief.

Anyone who accepts that * "won" by 537 votes got the wool pulled over their eyes, and they allowed it to happen because of comfortable complacency with their own ignorance of the numeric facts.

[Andy_Stephenson]

29. In case you didn't read the first paragraph of Bev's post...

"John Kenney is a man we could not dissuade (and we tried hard) from his plan. We tried -- but he is convinced that the failure to count paper ballots is a mission worth his life."

"Your "cause" is to get rid of evoting and keep us in the stone age. Your "cause" favors complicated conspiracies with highly skilled people over a system that with the same controls, could be facilitated by 5 year old kids."

That is BullSHIT and you know it. E-voting is fine with proper auditing and proceedures in place. Besides Canada votes and counts paper...they seem to be doing just fine.

"Because of your "cause", we could put the current asswipe-in-chief back in office because of dimpled pregnant hanging chads."

That was not the issue and you know it! -16022 votes was the problem.

"Now your cause includes killing people to make a political point."

So now you are accusing me of murder? That is freaking funny!

John made the decision on his own...it is his personal conviction that led him down this path.

[DubyaSux]

32. And...

....you guys are here bragging about it.

[Andy_Stephenson]

35. Bragging? pffffft

There is a difference in making the public aware of something and bragging. Bev is not bragging...merely helping out someone who asked.

[DubyaSux]

42. I disagree...

...she is using this guy's potential death to advance her cause much like she is using the good nature of most democrats.

This wasn't a "Oh God, this is horrible!! This is out of control!" tact. It is the "look what will be featured as the lead story on my web site!".

[Andy_Stephenson]

57. Yes...

Because he asked us to feature it.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joanne98]

89. You don't know what your talking about.......

the machines are rigged and that was PROVEN a long time ago. you can feel anyway you want to about the fast but DON'T stick up for the machines. That's a BIG NO NO!!!!!!!!!

[Junkdrawer]

25. So where do you stand on Rush Holt's Bill (H.R. 2239)???

:shrug:

[DubyaSux]

28. I have no problem...

....with H.R. 2239. I think if a hard copy of the vote makes people feel better and they want to pay for it, no problem. That is a reasonable approach to obvious imperfections in the evoting system (however, a far cry from fraud and much harder to rig than a paper system).

These types of measures help advance practical solutions to practical problems.

[Junkdrawer]

30. If they want to pay for it ??? Do you sell the things?

Much harder to rig than a paper system? A vulnerability here - a commingling of votes there and *wham* a whole state is thrown. Try that with a paper system.

And Rush Holt's Bill calls for audits - let's not forget the audits. That's about the only problem I have with the Holt Bill - I think that there are too few audits.

[DubyaSux]

34. It's expensive...

...the printers are the least reliable and pricey items in the paper system. The printers fail, need serviced, and use a lot of paper. Your vote may be held up because the person in front of you is trying get a printout.

I personally think it's bogus, but I'm willing to concede that issue to get a reasonable solution.

[Junkdrawer]

36. Touchscreen machines are expensive - paper is cheap....

If you want to stuff a ballot box, you need a veritable army of co-conspirators that you have to keep quiet.

With an electronic system, one or two programmers, a few corrupt Secretaries of State that look the other way, and you're in.

[DubyaSux]

38. lol...

..and 3 evoting companies facilitating this behavior is less of a conspiracy?

[Andy_Stephenson]

40. In the case of Diebold

hackability is built in...it is a standard feature.

[Junkdrawer]

41. Yeah. Three heavily Republican companies counting the votes...

with secret, proprietary software.

How could I every have been so misguided as to even suspect fraud. Silly me.

[DubyaSux]

43. Freeper companies???

So, there are no democrats that work for those companies?

Or is this the super-secret handshake I've read so much about so that the republican conspiritors know who the other republican conspiritors are?

Do you think all three of these companies have invested millions and millions of dollars to gain market share only to have it undone because they let a democrat into a secret closed door meeting where they were laughing about being able to pull the wool over their hardworking and honest democrat co-worker's eyes?

Do you people actually beleive this crap?

[Junkdrawer]

47. Spare me. You don't need eveyone at Diebold in on a conspiracy...

And that's the scariest thing of all.

[DubyaSux]

51. Why just Diebold?

There are 3 major players in the game. Diebold's only one and Bev Harris has attacked every one of them. Heck, YOU even stated the 3 freeper companies as an example.

[Junkdrawer]

53. What was Chuck Hagels's firm? ES&S rings a bell....

One underlying issue is whether Hagel properly disclosed his financial ties to Election Systems & Software (ES&S), a company that makes nearly half the voting machines used in the United States, including all those used in his native Nebraska.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx

[DubyaSux]

58. I don't dispute that....

....but without doing any type of scientific polling, I would guess that roughly half the employees working for ANY of those companies are democrats.

And I thooughly reject the notion that the freepers working there can keep a conspiracy of this magnitude together without their democratic co-workers finding out - in all three companies.

They aren't that smart and we're not that stupid. And that's the premise Bev Harris has you people hanging your hats on. But after looking at some of these posts, it's obvious that freepers aren't that smart, but...well....nevermind.

I'll go out and try to get more people to vote while you people scare them away by suggesting their votes will be stolen by freepers with literally, no evidence to support that notion.

Thanks for the help.

[Junkdrawer]

61. Bottom line: Audited elections or all the work to "get out the vote"...

is down the drain.

And frankly, it's the all-too-obvious sophistries used to justify a non-audited system that proves to me that fraud is very much in play.

[DubyaSux]

63. Doesn't anyone pay attention anymore?

Or do you let people like Bev Harris do all your thinking for you.

They ARE audited for pete's sake!!

During the manufacturing process (where contrary to popular beleif, they ARE audited in election mode) and all the way through election day, these machines are audited. Election board officials (which beleive it or not, contain freepers AND democrats) and other third party companies (whihc even more ironically, contain freepers and democrats) certify these machines before election.

It's quite possible that all these people are not in on Bev's grand conspiracy. It's quite possible that there might be one democrat in the mix that would not allow a freeper to steal an election. It's even possible that if this type of fraud existed, an honest democrat that works for one of the big three would have come forward by now to let us all in on the scam with clear evidence of the conspiracy.

But during election day, audit votes are cast. And no audit has ever failed. EVER. The closest thing was the demo that didn't have the spanish language setup properly. And it was a DEMO - not the real thing. But the english language portion worked perfectly.

So, not only does this conspiracy have to be this big and complicated, but the software would have to be smart enough to know whether any random candidate configured on that machine was a republican or democrat PLUS know it's an audit vote. Or, we could go with the trojan/inside job trigger that would only require a conspiritor in every district in every state in the union. Of course, how they would do that without a keyboard or mouse remains to be seen (since the machines do not have input devices other than the touchscreen attached while in the poll booth) and with no external connection to the outside world, we have conspiritors that perform magic.

[Eloriel]

67. Oh, please

Your "audits" are about as good as the certification processes being used around the country and nationally, which is to say: they suck and are basically worthless. But no matter, the voting machines companies don't seem to pay any attention any way.

The technical expertise of the election officials around the country leaves a LOT to be desired -- they are easily fooled, easily conned, (easily bought off too, apparently), and just plain gullible in the face of the fancy technojargon thrown at them by Diebold and the others. And that, IMO, is sufficient ENOUGH reason to abandon electronic voting permanently. Voting needs to be completely transparent, not "owned" and totally controlled by corporations with the poor, befuddled, technologically ignorant election officials looking on helplessly all the while believing they've got it under control.

[Andy_Stephenson]

69. Thank You!

Eloriel...

The certification processes are worthless. Shawn Southworth told us "if it is not in the FEC standards, I don't test for it". So anything could be in these systems. He also stated "the manufacturers don't like us to put anything negative about the machines in the report...so I dont".

Technical expertise of the election officials talk about an oxymoron. Most of the Elections Admins are skilled at running elections. They are not hardcore programmers. It is fact they depend on the vendor to get them through elections. So, they see the vendor as someone to remove work from their shoulders.

Audits are (in the case of Washington and several others) worthless. As an example...here in King County we only Audit 1/125th of a percent of the paper.

[Junkdrawer]

85. And that's your problem: Increasingly, people ARE paying attention...

and the smoke-and-mirrors that used to fly will not fly anymore.

[RedEagle]

87. Here are examples of the "auditing" you refer to

Diebold optical scan-
The L&A optical scan test is done with a test pack of ballots provided by Diebold. (As/per King County elections) County was not specific as to whether the test was of the optical scan machines or the vote tabulations system. (GEMS)

Sequoia-
L&A test- which is the audit you are referring to- of only the touch screens. They don't L&A the vote tabulation system. (WinEd, as/per county auditor in speech to local organization)

L&A tests of touch screens are self-tests. This is like giving a roomful of students the key to a test then walking out of the room while they take the test and correct it themselves.

L&A tests of other systems, when a deck is provided by the vendor, is the same scenario, just a little less "high tech."

Functionality test- many potential scenarios on a ballot are only tested with one, 1, ballot. The most ballots I've seen tested for a function was 6.

Testing by the ITA is virtually a self-check, since the ITA won't look at features not in the Federal standards and any problems found remain between the ITA and the vendors. So we never know if they are corrected or not. Auditing must be an open process or it's not an audit.

An audit must use two separate, verified sources of information. A touch screen machine can't even produce one, without a voter verified paper ballot. A product of a program is an interpretation of a vote, not an actual vote. Such an interpretation must be verified on a tangible source document.

As someone said before, General Accounting Principles must apply.

Let's get the 2000 fiasco in Florida straight. As Dan Spillane has pointed out, the failure of the punch cards had almost nothing to do with the punch card system itself. It was lack of good procedure among Florida voting personnel. If you don't clean chad trays, if you design a confusing ballot, that is not a voting system issue. Those are maintenance problems and bad design and those are created by people. Florida voting personnel went to other states to get a primer on how to handle punch cards. Counties have used them successfully for years. If election personnel can't handle punch cards properly, eliminating paper is not going to make the situation better, it just outsources the process to companies under no regulation.

Know a red herring when you see one. Punch cards were a ruse to get Congress and the country to lemming-jump to paperless systems, systems that have a lot of market hype and very little in the way of a good track record.

When you get away from the PR, many counties are not happy to part with the punch cards. They are faster than optical scan. But there are real reasons to replace them including lack of tech support and inability to get parts.

Replacing them with paperless systems is relegating voting to an importance level below the average cash register, ATM, and lotto systems.

Replacing them with a system that gives you a "feel good" receipt that you take home and verify, eliminates the ability to audit an entire election. And if you think that you can rely on a phone audit of your receipt or Internet confirmation, please Google "spoofing." Then consider that the leading proponent of such a system has a former CIA director, missing indictment for Iran-Contra by a slim hair, on its Board of Directors. Consider also that said system is a bandaid that is applied over the current, non-auditable voting systems. Cryptography is not going to secure a vote if the system isn't going to count it correctly.

Why is our vote less important than a receipt for goods, proof of money deposited, or a ticket gambling that your set of numbers are the winning combination?

[shraby]

65. Yes I believe this crap!

IT professionals on zdnet have discussed e-voting for a couple of years and think it's easily hacked and one of the worst ideas to come down the pike.

[Junkdrawer]

86. I'm sure the janitors at Enron were instrumental in defrauding Calf.

:eyes:

[Andy_Stephenson]

37. You are using the industry talking points.

Wal-Mart printers work all day long...I seldom see them break down. Safeway, Albertsons etc etc etc...all have printers. That argument is not valid.

[Eloriel]

68. And don't forget ATMs

:evilgrin:

[Andy_Stephenson]

70. Yes Indeed

ATM's the one here by my house is used all day long with nary a thought till it runs out of paper money.

[ParanoidPat]

71. Printers are in use 24/7/365 in Diebold ATM machines worldwide.....

.....The very same printers would be sufficient to print out your ballot for verification and drop it in the ballot box. :)

If you asked Diebold's sales people about the reliability of the printers in their ATM's, I wonder how they would respond? I suppose they would give you some BS about "years of trouble free service" or some mumbo jumbo "10,000 Hours MTBF" jive but that's only because they want to sell you their shit.

I guess we could use the printers that they use in the LOTTO machines. Now those suckers can print! Have you ever seen the lines at a 7-11 when the jackpot hits around a hundred mil? I'll bet a store in a busy location probably sells thousands of tickets on a good day. Considering that the average voting terminal will never see 1000 votes cast on it in any given election, and that you only use the machine once every year or two, the printer should easily last for the design life of the unit with only minor cleaning and maintenance. Two elections a year for 30 years adds up to a whopping total of 60 days of service.

Just to put your cost argument into perspective, ask yourself how many times you've used an ATM in the last year? How many LOTTO tickets did you buy? How many items did you purchase over the last year and get a printed receipt? The truth is we've been cost justifying printers and their consumables in our daily lives for many years now. You can't buy a pack of gum without getting a paper receipt. The technology has become so cheap and reliable that it's become the standard method of documenting most of our daily transactions. Except for a minute or two delay in a supermarket once, waiting for the clerk to replace the tape in the register, I have never had a printer fail to work.

When I go to make my choices for the people who will best represent my desires on how my wages and property will be taxed, and how the legislation that governs my life will be written, I want some tangible proof that I'm getting what I want. When I make my choice for the people I want in charge of the worlds largest economy and the strongest military forces on the planet I consider that a transaction worthy of a paper record for audit purposes. I've never noticed that the cost and maintenance issues associated with the printing of a transaction record for my purchase of a pack of gum has, to any great degree, affected the cost of that gum. I fail to see how the minuscule amount it would cost for an auditable paper ballot system would be an economic factor in a multi-trillion dollar budget.

I guess when it comes right on down to it, it's kind of funny to see you complain about the cost of the paper and ink required to 'add' a paper ballot to the system when in reality what we're actually doing is adding the tremendous cost of the computers while trying to eliminate the paper. The paper and ink are the least expensive part of the system and the only ones actually required to have an election. The rest is all an expensive high tech solution to a low tech problem.

Pen, paper and a day off to celebrate our form of government by casting our ballots and participating in the counting of the vote.

Perhaps we can attach a high resolution web cam the GEMS server in each precinct to allow everyone monitor the vote counting. The more eyes watching how our ballots are handled after we cast them, the less chances there are for fraud to occur.


:kick:

[Andy_Stephenson]

73. Pat

:yourock:

:thumbsup:

[stevedeshazer]

75. Well said

Makes you wonder what this poster has at stake financially.

Computer voting machines are a solution looking for a problem. Why else make taxpayers fund expensive systems that could easily be solved with low-tech solutions?

[Andy_Stephenson]

77. I wonder if that is

Mark Radke of Diebold? He does after all live in Ohio.

[RedEagle]

88. Great Post Pat!

We wouldn't conduct a transaction without a sales receipt and on big ticket, important items, a warantee.

I think voting qualifies as a big ticket item.

A voter verified paper ballot is your warantee that an accurate, verified ballot of your voting choices exists.

Your warantee is that your voter verified paper ballot, put in a ballot box, can be used to audit election results.

If you can't audit an election I don't see how you can certify one- there is no warantee.

[BevHarris]

76. Wow! Pat just made some of my favorite statements ever

in reality what we're actually doing is adding the tremendous cost of the computers while trying to eliminate the paper.

and this:

Pen, paper and a day off to celebrate our form of government by casting our ballots and participating in the counting of the vote.

and this:

Perhaps we can attach a high resolution web cam the GEMS server in each precinct to allow everyone monitor the vote counting.

Dead on. Thanks, Pat.

[ParanoidPat]

84. I hate Kool-Aid.......

.....perhaps that's why I can still see the obvious. :evilgrin:

Paper is not now, nor ever has been the problem. It's how the voters intent is recorded on the paper that is the problem. A simple ballot layout with a list of candidates for each office having a check box next to each name marked by pen is as foolproof a system as you can get. Anything you do to 'improve' on that basic system is only bound to make it worse.

Logic 101 dictates that the more complex a system becomes, the more likely it is to fail. Each element added to a system becomes one more potential point of failure. Any attempt to build in redundancy to address possible failure modes merely adds more complexity to the system since you now require additional elements to sense and monitor for faults and to switch to the backups. That simple fact caused our aerospace industry to do a massive rethink of their philosophy of 'dual redundancy' in some of our early missile systems and adopt the concept of 'zero defects' instead.
Those early engineers found out the hard way that adding backups upon backups to improve their chances of success only increased their failure rate. Only by stripping the systems down to their most basic form and doing everything as close to perfect as they could the first time could they raise the overall success rates of the systems.

PEN, PAPER, VOTER, Three potential failure elements.

PEN FAILURE MODE: Pen fails to dispense ink.
SEVERITY: Low
LIKELIHOOD: < 1 in 1000
RECOVERY MODE: Ask for another pen.

PAPER FAILURE MODE: Ballot can't be read, ballot won't hold ink.
SEVERITY: Low, Low
LIKELIHOOD: Unlikely, Unlikely
RECOVERY MODE: Ask for another ballot.

VOTER FAILURE MODE: Marking mistake, Failure to cast ballot
SEVERITY: Low, Extreme
LIKELIHOOD: Unlikely*, 50%
RECOVERY MODE: Ask for another ballot, Non Recoverable

*Assuming proper ballot design.

PEN, PAPER, VOTER, Getting the voter to show up to cast a ballot is the highest probability for system failure.

Hanging chads, dimpled chads, pregnant chads were all a result of trying to improve the markings on a paper ballot to make them machine readable. Ignoring for the moment all that can go wrong with the card reader just look at what adding the additional elements of the score lines to the ballots, ballot holder and punch tool did to the failure rate for ballots of that type.

Now attempt to make a list like the one above that includes every mechanical and electrical part plus every software module in a touch screen voting terminal that would prevent a vote from being recorded properly should it fail and factor in the likelihood of such a failure
occurring. Tell me which system you think is more reliable. :)

PEN, PAPER AND A DAY OFF TO CAST AND COUNT THE VOTES! We owe it to ourselves. :kick:

[TeeYiYi]

78. Another example . . .

. . . of 24/7 paper printouts has been evident with cashless slot machines in casinos for several years.

Players insert real money to play, then when they cash out, they get a little paper bar-coded ticket with their total winnings on it which can be taken directly to a cashier or to another of the casino's slots.

TYY

[SomthingsGotaGive]

48. Of course he sell them.

Otherwise he wouldn't suggest that people pay individually to make themselves feel sure they voted for who they wanted to and that there vote was counted.

Let me guess.....$10 to $20 per vote.

Should do well in the ghetto.

[DubyaSux]

52. Ahhh....

...the Sean Hannity "let me make something up" debating tactic.

"Otherwise he wouldn't suggest that people pay individually to make themselves feel sure they voted for who they wanted to and that there vote was counted."

I never suggested or even intimated any such thing. The expense would be ALL of ours in taxes.

[Junkdrawer]

55. "If WE want to pay for it"..."If THEY want to pay for it"....

As Rush says, "words matter".

[DubyaSux]

60. Quoting OxyRushbo to make a point??

Very impressive. Care to share any more of his words of wisdom to help make your point?

[Junkdrawer]

62. A stopped clock is right twice a day....

Words do matter.

"If they want to pay for it".........

[ursacorwin]

102. dubya sux, you are a troll.

you aren't fooling all of us, or even most of us. your constant attempts to disrupt this thread are obvious, juvvie, and transparent.

get a clue, fool. bev is the real thing, and all her crew. you on the other hand, are an obvious disruptor, and only here for one reason: to confuse people.

it won't work. i won't let it. to the rest of DU: think about it! think about what you know to be true (FL, GA, TX) and ask yourself: why would anyone doubt bev at this point?

why?

the only answer i can come up with is that rove etc., is paying them. think for yourself, people. do the dogpiling (not google, they give $ to the rethugs- www.dogpile.com) for yourself. think, think think!

bev has yet to be significantly wrong, and her worst suspicions have all proven to be more or less true. given bush's record for "truth" why is there any doubt that she's not at least partially right at this point?

ignore the trolls.

[JohnGideon]

39. Just To Be Perfectly Clear.....

The "Our press conference" that Bev mentions is not "Her" Press Conference at all. It is a Press Conference arranged by the National Ballot Integrity Project to discuss "EMERGENCY MEASURES TO PROTECT THE 2004 VOTE COUNT (EM2004) AND THE FEDERAL PAPER BALLOT EMERGENCY ACT OF 2004". Bev has been given a small piece of that press conference to do her thing.

You can read more about the EM2004 and what they are doing by visiting
http://www.ballotintegrity.org/index.html or http://www.votersunite.org/

It must also be pointed out that while the folks with EM2004 admire Mr. Kenney they specifically did not want him tied to their press conference. It could prove to be determental to have someone in the middle of a hunger strike linked to a serious press conference. Perhaps he can appear on "60 Minutes" with Bev instead of appearing here?

[BevHarris]

74. John - please. Ellen and I get along. Is Peter still there?

Ellen and Peter founded VotersUnite.org. I have told Ellen many times, and have indicated to you on this board, that I think VotersUnite is the best activism organizing site in the U.S. for this issue. I encourage people to donate to your site, and have specifically lined up press coverage for you with papers like the Miami Herald and others. I've recommended Ellen for negotiating with King County for improved security.

I have no beef with you, think you are a hard worker too. I believe the B.I.P. is nearly there with a viable solution, though needs work on the logistics, which we at BBV are working to help shore up.

As for the press conference -- it was presented to us as a joint press conference, with us handling the GEMS hack to demonstrate there is a problem, and with the bill and the B.I.P. solution in the solution part of it. However, no one was able to get the Washington Press Club room, which all of us wanted, in part because it gives us a great chance to get on C-Span.

As you probably know, folks were getting a little antsy today, with no room scheduled and press actions needed. Andy worked with one of his contacts to get the room, and we're in -- Washington Press Club. Black Box Voting is paying for the room, by the way.

As for Mr. Kenney, his assistant is Kathleen Wynne, who is on the steering committee of the B.I.P., the group who is putting EM2004 together. Kathleen has been instrumental in showing compassion for John Kenney, who will need a caretaker, and has also been one of the most passionate advocates for the B.I.P. and EM2004. They wrote to thank us today for the opportunity.

I hope you can come aboard and feel better about things. At one point, as I'm sure you know -- perhaps because you felt strongly and didn't want BBV to be part of the press conference -- but we had already made arrangements to be in DC -- I offered to do a completely separate press conference, or join one with you, or do whatever all agreed was the best plan.

The latest plan, and I spoke with Ellen about this, was that demonstrating the problems with our voting systems was of critical importance to build the urgency needed to achieve solutions.

I was asked to be there, and will be bringing other experts, as I have been asked to do. We are paying the costs of the press conference room, and are doing quite a bit on the PR for this, and will be paying our way and that of the other experts.

I understand that the EM2004 folks will be hosting a forum at 1:30 in the afternoon, which will be excellent I'm sure. We also are planning additional efforts to push forward emergency solutions.

It's going to take all of us with shoulders against the wall. Let's just do this thing.

Wishing you the best, John.

Bev Harris

[EST]

79. Hullo Bev and PP as well-

I am clear that you get constant praise ( and constant brickbats) so my own may be worth little, but I want you to know that I know how important the task is that you have taken on, I could tell you how I worship the very ground you and your associates walk upon, how your very names should be added as an amendment to the declaration of Independence...yes, I could tell you all this and still be less than speechless in my respect for your awsome endeavor.

I suppose all that's left is just a simple thank you. And I haven't much, but such as I have, I will do whatever I can in support for your commitment and your enormous work. Thank you.
Jim

[BevHarris]

80. Thank you. And now, for a (possibly unpopular) perspective

Sometimes, a lot of times, it seems too big for us.

At such times we remind each other that there is a power much bigger yet, and we put it in His hands and simply ask for guidance to do the small things that he has in mind for us.

And all of us -- including, and maybe especially, those who feel so passionate about these issues that bickering breaks out -- are parts in this larger scheme of things.

This issue is, truly, larger than any of us, and not a one of us can possibly control the outcome, so we all do what we are called to -- and this thread, I hope, can revive into respect and support for John Kenney, since he has alone made this decision, with whatever guidance he leans on, and it is a courageous and physically painful decision.

We were horrified when John Kenney approached us for help, after we learned what he was insistent on doing. I told him BBV could have nothing to do with such an endeavor. So he came back asking for names of who might help him -- we tried again to talk him out of it, but he believes that this is his calling. Kathleen Wynne was one name I gave him, since she's multitalented and quite spiritual and very compassionate. She agreed to look after him, at least.

When overwhelmed, put it in the hands of the almighty. Amazing things happen.

And thanks, Rev, because your kind words means a lot.

Bev

[EST]

81. You are so very, very welcome.

______________

[EST]

82. You are so very, very welcome.

______________

[Eloriel]

91. How unfortunate

I've been thinking about this Hunger Strike issue over night -- and since this thread has bobbled to the top, I'll go ahead and post my comments.

I've never understood hunger strikes. I don't believe they have that much effect on TPTB, certainly not a single person starting one of his own. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I know some of the suffragists who were jailed after protesting went on a hunger strike while in prison and were subsequently force-fed, but I don't think their efforts were that impactful in the overall scheme of things. The force feeding they endured was probably more impactful, but even that, in and of itself, didn't result in women getting the vote.

So I don't necessarily have much affinity for this man or his efforts.

But what I find troubling is the glib treatment of the matter in the OP, as if this is somehow laudable. :shrug: Perhaps to some it is -- it certainly isn't to me. And I agree with JohnGideon, I don't think it helps the overall cause, and definitely shouldn't be part of the press conference.

Nearly as troubling is the treatment of this press conference in the OP, given what JohnGodeon pointed out -- nary a mention of the other group involved, as if it was exclusively a BBV effort.

[ParanoidPat]

97. Desperate times call for desperate measures......

.....We each do what we can to fight for what we truly believe in. :evilgrin:

A hunger strike might not be what you or I would choose to do to raise awareness about our eroding voting rights but it is what John Kenney feels he can do for a cause that we all feel strongly about.

John is in good company in his use of a hunger strike to raise public awareness of a bad political situation. Did you find Gandhi's hunger strike to end British rule in India laudable? How about Bobby Sands hunger strike to help end the mistreatment of political prisoners held in British prisons? What about the 175 'detainees' languishing in a Wackenhut run prison in a converted warehouse building with no windows in the middle of a warehouse district in Springfield Gardens, Queens? Who would even know those people have been being held there without charge since shortly after 9/11/2001 if not for their hunger strike? I know I wouldn't have.

While the suffragettes hunger strike "in and of itself, didn't result in women getting the vote", you can bet your bottom dollar that their action, and subsequent treatment for engaging in it, helped to turn the tide of public opinion in their favor.

I find it unfortunate that any voting rights activist would choose to stifle the voice of a like minded individual simply because they disagree with the method they chose to express their concern. I'm sorry if it makes you so uncomfortable with those of us who would laud his efforts that you feel compelled to publicly accuse us of "glib" treatment of his situation. :(

What I find even more unfortunate is the missed opportunity for different voting rights organizations to work together to enhance our common message without ego induced attempts at controlling the message.

I've been fortunate enough to have seen Bev in action first hand. Her expertise in public relations is a valuable asset to the voting rights movement. It's hard to get through a conversation with her without her cell phone going off at least once or twice. I'm sure the effort she put into phoning her best press contacts and in securing and paying for the best venue she could muster will be an asset to all involved. In fact if not for Bev's post here, I would not even be aware of this press conference. I've not seen John post anything about it nor have I seen any mention of it on the http://www.votersunite.org web site. Perhaps I missed it. At least now that I'm aware of it, I can use the 'DU media blaster' to ask that other members of the press cover it.

As a movement we would all be much more effective acting as a coalition of voting rights groups. Something as simple as a Resource Links page, hosted on all coalition member sites, containing direct links to other members educational resources and activism forums and events pages is in order.

I'm fairly certain it wouldn't hurt. JMHO. :)

[JohnGideon]

104. Pat, Thank You for the Comments....

First, the EM2004 Project has been spelled out in full detail on the home page of VotersUnite for over a month now.

Second, VotersUnite is two people; Ellen and I. That's it. We discuss projects but don't both work on them at the same time. There is just no time for it. We both give 12 to 16 hours a day working on this issue. By the way, though we have a donation request on the website we do not actively ask for money. We could sure use it but we are activists and not in it for the money. That's one reason I left verifiedvoting.org. Anyway, this program was Ellen's from the start and I have stayed away from it to do my things.

Third, when planning was being done for a press conference there was a lot of talk about asking Bev to attend. Some feel that she can be a determent when you have an issue. I agree. By her reputation she steals the limelight. This press conference was not supposed to be about voting machine hacking or people on hunger strikes; it was to be about paper ballots and pencils, handcounted.

I know everyone thinks that Bev is a goddess on this issue. I agree that none of this would ever have happened if it weren't, in a large part, for Bev. However, to some extent she is damaging the very movement that she is representing. The media has mixed feelings about Bev. Some refuse to talk to her because they feel she has taken over the movement to be "Bev's Issue". Some feel that she just repeats what the activists on the ground are telling her and they would prefer going to the source. Some actually feel threatened because she does better research and writing than they do. I have been told these things by media professionals.

While Bev and Andy are out running around the country their own state and the county in which they live has installed uncertified software on the voting machines. A total of 6 counties now have uncertified software. I was told, on the phone, by Andy that he was going to get involved in this issue. He told me again in a post here that he would get involved. I have never heard anything back from him. Instead of running off to Washington DC to get press; Andy and Bev need to be in this Washington getting press. If we had been able to get any press coverage, we might have been able to get something done prior to the primary. We got nothing except Andy making attempts to video tape the counting in the King County Elections Office. That's a real help to all of us. There is nothing to be gained by publicity stunts like that. It only damages the reputation of every other activist in the state who is working on this issue.

[In Truth We Trust]

50. I support John Kerry and I will support John Kenny too!

Thank you John Kenny and may your battle for democracy be won swiftly!

On another note Bev I understand that Bushco* did not meet the Fla ballot deadline and yet his name is to be on the ballot regardless. I also understand this is not being challenged legally. I can't help but wonder that if we forced this issue then that would force Bushco* to conduct a write in campaign which would then foreclose on the electronic paperless scam. Your thoughts?

[peabody71]

59. kick for a hero.

[OnionPatch]

90. Just want to give my support

Bev, I have been following this issue and just wanted to add my support and thanks to you, BBV, John Kenney and EVERYONE who stands up to address the problems with these machines. You have much support from me and I think I can speak for all my friends as well. Thank you and I wish the best for Kenney and hope what he is doing will make a difference.

[ArkDem]

92. Well, we all know that fraud isn't possible with paper ballots.

[ParanoidPat]

94. Do you make that claim out of ignorance or is it sarcasm?

:shrug: I don't recall any voting rights activist that has ever made the claim that fraud is impossible with any voting system. I have seen much evidence that paper ballots are the best way to audit the intent of the electorate and, when employed in an election with proper citizen oversight, offer the least possibility of potential fraud.

Public participation in the vote count is the key to keeping elections honest and increasing voter confidence. :)

Paper ballots cast and counted in full view of the public are about as safe an election system as you can get. Locked ballot boxes that remain in full view of multiple observers during the entire voting process are the hardest system to manipulate. One could attempt to use 'slight of hand' to 'stuff' extra ballots into the box but a simple comparison of the number of ballots cast to the number of people who voted would quickly expose the fraud attempt. Removing and destroying completed ballots from a locked ballot box in full public view or attempting to replace ballots with others that have been filled out for a given candidate would require nothing less than a master magician under those circumstances.

Once a ballot, or worse yet, ballot box disappears from public view the chances of the ballots being lost, manipulated or replaced by someone else increase significantly. If the ballot never physically exists to begin with, and can not be viewed by anyone, the opportunity for fraud or counting error increases exponentially.

PEN, PAPER, AND A DAY OFF TO CAST AND COUNT THE BALLOTS. :evilgrin:

John Kenney knows this and is willing to lay his life on the line to make sure others do too. :toast: :kick:

[ArkDem]

95. The same ends can be met with technology. People just don't

understand it.

[Zorra]

96. No. We understand it. We want even more stringent verifiable auditing

and physical verification of our voting system than we have with our banking system.

Electronic voting systems currently in use in the US are neither acceptably auditable nor do they produce any physical evidence viewable by individual voters so that they may have confidence that their vote was actually cast, and/or that their vote was cast for the person intended, and/or that their vote will actually be counted.

A paper ballot, marked with an indelible pen, with a carbon backup, which are then placed by the voter in seperate locked box for later counting, recounting, and auditing, is the most efficient, accurate, and fraud proof method of voting. Canada has a somewhat similar method, and they employ it very confidently and successfully.

As Americans concerned about the preservation of our democracy and the integrity of the voting process, we deserve the best, most accurate and verifiable voting system possible. And paper and pen is the simplest and best method for achieving this result that we have at this time.

Read my signature line. It is the bottom line in this discussion.

[ParanoidPat]

98. While part of what you said is certainly true.....

....."The same ends can be met with technology", the benefits of using such complex systems for such a simple task are greatly outweighed by the additional costs and risks involved with the use of the present systems.

I'm not arguing whether it can be done, rather, whether it should be. :evilgrin:

Now as far as your assertion that "People just don't understand it" I guess that all depends on the definition of what "it" is. :)

The current e-voting systems are a complex answer in search of a suitable question. If the question is "What is the easiest, most cost effective way for the maximum number of people to cast a ballot with the minimum chance that it will be miscounted?", e-voting is clearly not the answer!

If the question is, "What is easiest way for someone to tamper with the maximum number of ballots in the shortest time frame with the minimum chance of getting caught?", well, you and I both know the answer.

[Andy_Stephenson]

99. If it takes a computer programmer or

scientist to understand how to count the vote...It is not the solution.

[ParanoidPat]

100. It sure ain't rocket science!

Come on, say it with me Andy!

PEN, PAPER, AND A DAY OFF TO CAST AND COUNT THE VOTES! :kick:

[ElementaryPenguin]

93. Kick! For a true American "hero"!!

Not somebody playing one, like God Raygun or girlie-man Ahhnulled! This man Kenney is demonstrating amazing dedication towards saving our democracy - dedication that needs to make it's way into the history books someday! And Bev - you are incredibly awesome as well! All I can say is thank you for all your efforts!

:bounce: